AXO2?reads o2 and Co2 for hs36 fieldpiece.

[xersw]

Anyone out there use this head for there fieldpiece?How do u like it?

[weber]

I have one, and never use it.

I really dont understand the purppse of it.

If you have combustion analyzer, it will do a better job and you don't need more then one accesory head.

I would say to invest your money into a good combustion analyzer.

I say this as a big field piece supporter, nothing wrong with the product just not practical for me.

[mark beiser]

It only measures 02, CO2 is a calculated value.

As Webber said, forget this thing, invest in a combustion analyzer.

[xersw]

wHAT DO YOU MEAN BY A CALCULATED VALUE,sorry caps lock,It figures your smoke and co2 and gives you a effeciency percenetage.The bacharach is like 800$.Crankin on oil without it is a shot in the dark.

[weber]

Its calculated, meaning not acutally measured.

Same thing with that magic eff %, dont even look at that #!

Your company should be able to order you a bacharach for less then that. I get them for around $400.

Much more reliable, and accurate tool.

Plus when looking at combustion you want to look at your CO, and your O2. Those are the two most important readings to me.

Also get yourself a Dwyer 460, best 30 bucks you'll ever spend!

[mark beiser]

It also doesn't sample in real time. You have to pump a bulb by hand a certain number of times, and it averages the reading.
It wouldn't be at all useful for spotting a heat exchanger with a leak, or other diagnostics that require a more dynamic real time reading.

I'm not even sure why they made it, or why anyone would buy one...

[davidr]

It also doesn't sample in real time. You have to pump a bulb by hand a certain number of times, and it averages the reading.
It wouldn't be at all useful for spotting a heat exchanger with a leak, or other diagnostics that require a more dynamic real time reading.

I'm not even sure why they made it, or why anyone would buy one...

Those with good intentions will be the ones to purchase it.

Shouldn't be able to produce something like this, it only gives a tech a false sense of security.

[Carnak]

It also doesn't sample in real time. You have to pump a bulb by hand a certain number of times, and it averages the reading.
It wouldn't be at all useful for spotting a heat exchanger with a leak, or other diagnostics that require a more dynamic real time reading.

I'm not even sure why they made it, or why anyone would buy one...

old fyrites been measuring CO2 and tuning oil burners for 70 years

[mark beiser]

old fyrites been measuring CO2 and tuning oil burners for 70 years

I understand that, but they have similar limitations, and are obsolete in todays world of highly accurate combustion analyzers.
At least the old Fyrite kits directly measured CO2.

[Carnak]

not much of a diiference in accuracy between a fyrite and todays digitals,

In fact, the gas fyrite kits with the bottles for CO2 and O2 are more accurate than anything Jim Davis has ever had his hands on

[Twilly]

Twilli says all the big guns are in here

[Jim Davis]

not much of a diiference in accuracy between a fyrite and todays digitals,

In fact, the gas fyrite kits with the bottles for CO2 and O2 are more accurate than anything Jim Davis has ever had his hands on

Haven't we been quiet. And if I had 3 hands I could use the Fyrite, hold the probe,hold the bottle & plunger & squeeze the bulb. Lets see you have to traverse the flue at least three times to find the proper location to take at test. That's 54 squeezes of the bulb. 18 more squeezes if you make an adjustment. That's 72 squeezes. Couple more adjustments and we are over 100 squeezes.

I guess the big difference is it took you 100 times longer to be inaccurate in your day. We like to make mistakes must faster today.

Now I know why you have a grip on things or did CARNAK have someone squeeze his bulb while he held his probe.

And let's see to measure CO2 accurately we need to know the actual carbon content of the fuel or maybe plus or minus a couple if percent doesn't matter.

I am sure you have run these numbers on your abaccus because it is more accurate than a computer.

[mark beiser]

not much of a diiference in accuracy between a fyrite and todays digitals,

Yes, they give you a very accurate snapshot of what was going on 5 minutes ago. :p

I say let the Smithsonian exhibit have a peaceful retirement. ;)

[Twilly]

Twilli says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qaZvrcs-oc&feature=related

[Carnak]

And let's see to measure CO2 accurately we need to know the actual carbon content of the fuel or maybe plus or minus a couple if percent doesn't matter.

I am sure you have run these numbers on your abaccus because it is more accurate than a computer.

Actually Jim you were amazingly quiet after I found the missing 10% of the heat that has been in your face for the last 30 years :) . Crank that pressure to force that output, lol, 10% overfired because you were not even close on measuring the output in the first place.

Did you send out retractions to all those you incorrectly taught, or are they still cranking pressure trying to get an output when they were taught to measure the output artificially low in the first place?

Knowing the carbon content of the fuel is more important with your digital devices which scimp on a CO2 sensor to keep costs down, but the fyrite bottles are quite accurate when it comes to measuring this. There could be some CO2 in the natural gas to begin with but by measuring both CO2 and O2 you would not be fooled by this.

The bottles are cumbersome and you cannot trend what is happening as is the case with the methods you have pioneered. The bottles will give a 5 minute old snap shot, but I often wonder what happens one month after one of your over zealous proteges leave after an early December tune up, and the gas gets spiked with propane in Janaury.

The bottles did not maesure CO, all they had then was hit or miss tubes for 100 PPM CO

An abacus, or counting on your fingers is not always a bad thing because you know how to do something manually. Relying on something digital to process information can be GIGO, garbage in = garbage out. In your case you do not know how to do it manually so you disregard some results or you make up your own BS and teach it as the truth.

Shame on you

[Jim Davis]

Continous O2 & CO guarantee proper, stable & complete combustion. They also guarentee you have proper venting and combustion air.

I think of the thousands of atmospheric boilers I have tested with rear drafthood that had 8 or more burners. 18 squeezes X 8 = 144 squeezes and then 3 tests per burner to check stability = 432 squeezes and then when we made adjustments another 144. Not to mention the skin that was burnt off your knuckles if you held that little probe over each section.

The fact is that it was never done correctly with a bottle!! At best a few oil furnaces might have been checked but only 1 in 3 chances the probe was in the correct location. Should be called a milk bottle because that is what most customers were getting with it.

Never lost 10% so no need to argue. Anyone who think a bottle is more accurate than digital is missing more than 10%!!!

[Carnak]

Never lost 10% so no need to argue.


Dumb


http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=1673122&postcount=4

and Dumber

http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=1673133&postcount=6

but it is not his fault that some one taught him wrong, that is your fault

[Twilly]

Dang Made is dumber, Twilli wanted to be dumber......;)

[Twilly]

Twilli wants to know where is the Doctor?

[Jim Davis]

not much of a diiference in accuracy between a fyrite and todays digitals,

In fact, the gas fyrite kits with the bottles for CO2 and O2 are more accurate than anything Jim Davis has ever had his hands on

Dumbest!!

I am sure you must have had bottles on the job but I question what was in them???

[Carnak]

Dumbest!!

I am sure you must have had bottles on the job but I question what was in them???

So have you sent out updates to your students on the missing 10%?

[Jim Davis]

So have you sent out updates to your students on the missing 10%?

Sent it out by telegraph because it is more accurate than e-mail.

[Carnak]

Dear Students stop

I have been misleading your for 30 years stop

Use 1.08 for the heat rise stop

At the end of the high performance tuning, we need to double check stop

Clock the meter before you leave stop

Retune if you find it grossly over fired stop

lots of love stop

the captain stop

[davidr]

Twilli wants to know where is the Doctor?


Watching. :)

[Jim Davis]

Dear Students stop

I have been misleading your for 30 years stop

Use 1.08 for the heat rise stop

At the end of the high performance tuning, we need to double check stop

Clock the meter before you leave stop

Retune if you find it grossly over fired stop

lots of love stop

the captain stop

Looks like you got 3 correct!!

Stop using 1.08

Stop clocking the meter-guess that was pretty common on oil & CO2 bottles

Stop overfiring

However:

Never stop double checking

Never stop the captain

Can't stop misleading if never started

And never stop loving our conversations

[Twilly]

Twilli has video of fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CezNIRYYGY

[Carnak]

Stop using 1.08



Your own organization, the guys who sign your pay check teach other wise.

But you would rather continue to mislead people than admit you are wrong.

Your retirement will be none to soon

[Jim Davis]

Your own organization, the guys who sign your pay check teach other wise.

But you would rather continue to mislead people than admit you are wrong.

Your retirement will be none to soon


And no one could be more grateful in the fact you have already retired from this industry than I.

Need only to read the stories about CO that come from the North to realize why you are so confused.

Somehow you believe that if someone does something wrong for 70 years it should be considered the truth and not questioned. I do not believe you could find me one person that has ever accurately tested and tuned an oil furnace with a CO2 bottle in the field. It was and always will be just a token test that gave one second of burner operation in a flue location that may have or may not have even been correct.

I have never read one oil combustion book that has been written to date that explains the proper way to determine placement of a probe in the flue other than what I have wrote. Definitely none on natural gas other than mine. Or all they all on your book shelf??

[Carnak]

I think you are one of the most well meaning people in the industry, however I think your ignorance and pride make you one of the most dangerous persons in the industry.

Your foolish pride will but some poor schmuck in jail some day.

The very organization you work for disagrees with the misinformation you spread.

As far as the state of affairs north of the border go, I think the immigration department does well from prohibitting you from working in Canada.

[Jim Davis]

I think you are one of the most well meaning people in the industry, however I think your ignorance and pride make you one of the most dangerous persons in the industry.

Your foolish pride will but some poor schmuck in jail some day.

The very organization you work for disagrees with the misinformation you spread.

As far as the state of affairs north of the border go, I think the immigration department does well from prohibiting you from working in Canada.


Quotes from hospitals in Canada "We don't test people for CO because it is always gone before they get here." "We don't treat people for CO poisoning because we don't have any hyperbaric chambers anyway." Certainly can tell which of us has been influential there.

I do not believe you have ever been to any training put on by my organization nor have been in contact that any that works there , so that is an absolute untruth!!! My organization absolutely will not allow me to teach incorrect information. But then I believe in the past your stated we teach air balancing incorrectly also.

I think the tens of thousands of lives that have been saved over the last 30 years might want to disagree with you.

Your misinformation should any one listen, will only continue to contribute to the injury and death of many people, which in your mind is much better. You put roofs over peoples head, I make sure it is safe for them to live under the roofs where they live.

70 years of wrong will soon become 71 years of doing wrong or is there a grandfather clause I am not aware of???

[Carnak]

Canada does fine without you - you quack.

The truth of the matter is you never took a simple air course from the organization you work for, otherwise you would not spread misinformation like you do. Post a certificate if you have.

The only reason you do not want meters clocked is that they can show furnaces are gorssly over fired when zealous people following your method squeeze a few BTUs too many out of the furnace.

Especially when you teach them to measure the heat output of a furnace 10% low in the first place.

One of these days your ignorance and your pride is going to land a student in hot water.

[Jim Davis]

Canada does fine without you - you quack.

The truth of the matter is you never took a simple air course from the organization you work for, otherwise you would not spread misinformation like you do. Post a certificate if you have.

The only reason you do not want meters clocked is that they can show furnaces are gorssly over fired when zealous people following your method squeeze a few BTUs too many out of the furnace.

Especially when you teach them to measure the heat output of a furnace 10% low in the first place.

One of these days your ignorance and your pride is going to land a student in hot water.

You will never get anyone in hot water because you never set anything high enough to get the water hot. I don't clock meter because it can't done on LP, Oil or most commercial and industrial jobs so why incorporate something that is not universally helpful?

I can post my combustion certification can you post yours??? Never said I was an air balancer. But even someone that doesn't do air balancing knows that you can't more more hot air through a small diameter flex than a large diameter vent pipe, but then I guess the people that wrote the venting tables never went to air balancing classes either.

[Carnak]

You will never get anyone in hot water because you never set anything high enough to get the water hot. I don't clock meter because it can't done on LP, Oil or most commercial and industrial jobs so why incorporate something that is not universally helpful?

I can post my combustion certification can you post yours??? Never said I was an air balancer. But even someone that doesn't do air balancing knows that you can't more more hot air through a small diameter flex than a large diameter vent pipe, but then I guess the people that wrote the venting tables never went to air balancing classes either.

You have certified yourself.

You are definitely not an air balancer, although it would not hurt you to take your own organization's basic course BEFORE you teach people how to measure the heat output of a furnace, because you are teaching them wrong. How can you even be teaching them that when you do not know how to do it yourself?

You work for an organization that measures everything except the easiest measurement of all.

Or if you are too proud to properly learn the basics, stick to teaching what you really know - venting and CO. Forget your forcing an Output BS when you do not even know how to measure the output in the first place.

Oil you are adjusting air, the furnaces are rated for a series of nozzels.

You are not adjusting air in a resi gas or propane furnace. So how about fine tune a gas one, go back and clock the damn meter when it is right there, and verify, or PROVE to all your doubters, that you are not teaching your students to routinely overfire residential gas furnaces.

You probably have clocked them and you know they spin too fast, so you sweep it under the carpet. There can be no other reason why you are so opposed to clocking a meter.

Prove you have it right on gas and I will take your word on the Propane.

Otherwise, keep quacking Daffy.

[hearthman]

Actually, you can clock LP. I got a 250 CFH temp. compensated meter from American with flex connectors just like we used in the R&D lab. You clock it same as normal then correct the reading. My meter has a correction factor for LP gas of 0.64 based upon a vapor density of 1.52 This seems to be accurate enough for UL and other labs to accept the data on clearances to combustibles, exhaust gases, performance and durability.

Guys, without taking sides here, I think you need to end this mud slinging. It does not become either of you. You both are learned men who, like about 80% of the members on this site, don't seem to agree. I don't see either of you convincing the other of your viewpoint so agree to disagree. To all who read this, do your homework, ask as many learned people including engineers as you can and develop your own opinions.

Hearthman

[Jim Davis]

Sorry Hearthman this is Carnak & my annual mudslinging contest but he is always the one that starts it. Just trying to figure out which foot he is using this year.

Didn't say that clocking LP was impossible, just not a necessity and I am guessing 99.9% of LP jobs have not seen such a meter. I know they are available from most mobile home suppliers.

Just read a recent article from ASHRAE that stated that appliance have been over derated at higher altitudes from the very beginning. They are recommending increasing the gas pressure. Can't wait for CARNAK to get on their case.