Metasys & DX9100 system headaches

[gellenb]

I have a DX9100 controller that I have various problems with. Over the last 8 years I have had five different companies in to deal with my problems and what they are all good at doing is pointing fingers....it's the computer control...it's the unit ventilators...it's the boilers...the moon is full. So over the last year I have gone over almost every piece of the system making sure all devices/components work as they should, and there were a lot that were not. Those problems are gone, and some of my problems are clearly with the controller and always have been. My problems exist and they point back to the DX9100. The company that setup the controllers are no longer in business, and that's no surprise from all the problems I have come across and poor backwards programming.

First the date and time on the system is wrong. Is there an easy way to correct that? I have no software to access this other than my terminal sessions to the N30. I've noticed recently that the date and time is changing erratically which after reading some other posts may indicate the controller is failing - any thoughts?

Next I have no true copy of the config. I got one early on, but it was changed so many times after that I'm not sure if the files I have are right. Is there any software out there that I can download the config to make a backup copy? If I keep this system, are there individuals out there that really know this controller that would take my config and "manage" it for me?

Is there any way to "print out" the config? If I have a problem it would be nice to know if it's bad programming, or something else. Even though I have not programmed this controller, and really don't want to go that far having this information at hand would answer a lot of questions when problems come up.

For example. Now that my boilers are happy my loop temps are good, until it went below 10 degrees the other night....then the system would ultimately end up fire all three boilers to keep the loop at a way to toasty 245-250 (this is a small building and I clearly don't want or need these temp on my loops. One boiler maintains this building constantly except first thing in the AM when I bring things up to temp and it's really really cold outside. Each boiler is 1,200,000 BTU's) until the high limits shut them down. And this problem has existed since 1999 and nobody could get that fixed...they would come when it was warmer and could not duplicate the problem so nothing is wrong according to them..... I've just come to the end of my patients with this system as I can't find truly knowledgeable and affordable folks to work on this. For any "local" & "knowledgeable" company to come out, it's a minimum of a 3-4 hour drive..so it's several hundred dollars just to say hello at my door. And after all these years, none of them have got it to work and I'm tired of throwing money away on this. I'm sure there are good companies out there, I'm just in a bad location in the mountains away from everyone.

Sorry to vent, but I would like any information anyone could provide. I'm close to going back to the stone age systems I had prior to this that worked. They were far from efficient, but they worked. I hate to do that, but I'm really thinking that is what I should do since I can't get this investment to work, and can't get anyone to make it work.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

[BasicCntrl]

You need the famous JCI GX9100 programming tool and the DX Commissioning software for the DX-9100 controller. The programming tool has an option to download the date and time from the computer you connect with using the 9F to 9F modem cable. Also the configuration in the DX can be uploaded to print the layouts and programs. You might want to check to ensure the DX is not set for 50Hz. With the commissioning tool, you can monitor and command the outputs.

[mechdorn]

What has happened in the past needs to be left there, It sounds like a little of both. It is hard to imagine that you have had 5 bad contractors in 8 years at your site. It looks like now you are more focused on the overall system and can determine what pieces are not functioning correctly. First off, it's better to pay a good controls company a couple of extra bucks in travel time and get your problems resolved, rather than wasting money on repeat visits for the same problem by a local contractor that isn't getting the job done. That's the price of doing business in a remote location. A word about the dx9100, Until 2 years ago, the controller was JCI's premier fully programmable controller. It's a great controller, but not everbody is is good at programming it, it's easy to make minor mistakes and the programming software does not include any testing ability. Let's look at the problems. The clock date and time, The time and date can be set via the buttons on the face of the controller, it may require a controller jumper key inserted into the front of the controller, I never had to use one because I use a PC. Go to Johnson Controls Product Info and download the DX9100 guide. You stated that there is a N30 on the site, I don't know what functions the on board clock would do, scheduling should be from the N30. Without having the latest programming file, the best somebody new could do is upload the controller. The problem is, none of the tag names come in the upload. It means you can see what inputs are connected to which outputs but you really don't know what they are. All is not lost, the N30 also contains a file that can be uploaded, between the 2 files a fairly accurate new DX9100 file can be generated and downloaded into the existing controller. The new file can be reconstructed off site, the contractor can examine it for errors and repair the problems. After the problems are corrected a print out can be provided and backup disks are made for both controllers. As far as the boilers running wild, is the boiler loop setpoint visiable at the N30? If so you should be able to install a trend on it via the hyper terminal connection. I would trend the setpoint and the temperature. In the Dx9100, the temperature reset schedule sounds like it's running crazy and projecting a bad setpoint. This is an easy programming mistake to make. There is a proper way to install caps or limits on the reset control object. If it wasn't done correctly it will keep projecting setpoints beyond your limits (190 degF ). As far as the software, you should be able to find a controls dealer willing to sell it to you. The software is becoming old and is now back burner stuff, but without proper training you could really mess up the controller. I would not recommend a novice to start messing around with DX9100 programming software. Your time would be better spent on becoming a better user with the onboard keypad. I can see your frustrated, all of these issues are resolveable.

[mechdorn]

What has happened in the past needs to be left there, It sounds like a little of both. It is hard to imagine that you have had 5 bad contractors in 8 years at your site. It looks like now you are more focused on the overall system and can determine what pieces are not functioning correctly. First off, it's better to pay a good controls company a couple of extra bucks in travel time and get your problems resolved, rather than wasting money on repeat visits for the same problem by a local contractor that isn't getting the job done. That's the price of doing business in a remote location. A word about the dx9100, Until 2 years ago, the controller was JCI's premier fully programmable controller. It's a great controller, but not everbody is is good at programming it, it's easy to make minor mistakes and the programming software does not include any testing ability. Let's look at the problems. The clock date and time, The time and date can be set via the buttons on the face of the controller, it may require a controller jumper key inserted into the front of the controller, I never had to use one because I use a PC. Go to Johnson Controls Product Info and download the DX9100 guide. You stated that there is a N30 on the site, I don't know what functions the on board clock would do, scheduling should be from the N30. Without having the latest programming file, the best somebody new could do is upload the controller. The problem is, none of the tag names come in the upload. It means you can see what inputs are connected to which outputs but you really don't know what they are. All is not lost, the N30 also contains a file that can be uploaded, between the 2 files a fairly accurate new DX9100 file can be generated and downloaded into the existing controller. The new file can be reconstructed off site, the contractor can examine it for errors and repair the problems. After the problems are corrected a print out can be provided and backup disks are made for both controllers. As far as the boilers running wild, is the boiler loop setpoint visiable at the N30? If so you should be able to install a trend on it via the hyper terminal connection. I would trend the setpoint and the temperature. In the Dx9100, the temperature reset schedule sounds like it's running crazy and projecting a bad setpoint. This is an easy programming mistake to make. There is a proper way to install caps or limits on the reset control object. If it wasn't done correctly it will keep projecting setpoints beyond your limits (190 degF ). As far as the software, you should be able to find a controls dealer willing to sell it to you. The software is becoming old and is now back burner stuff, but without proper training you could really mess up the controller. I would not recommend a novice to start messing around with DX9100 programming software. Your time would be better spent on becoming a better user with the onboard keypad. I can see your frustrated, all of these issues are resolveable.

[keepyoucool2003]

.

[2^3]

Move on from the past.

Is this the new JCI recovery slogan?

[freddy-b]

Is this the new JCI recovery slogan?

They probably have a nice little video with everybody in hard hats dancing and singing it while holding hands, that they show at every meeting! Probably accompanied with a power point presentation on Planetary Love.

[BasicCntrl]

A dx9100 w\o tag names = reverse engineering – happens all the time.
You gotta play detective and work from the program out & hopefully there some input & output wires marked or tagged – this is assuming of coarse there are no control drawings nor original\backup *.dxs file.

[integrator]

Good-day

Is the controllers connected to a N30? if so do you have a network card in that N30. The easiest way is to place the N30 on the network and then someone can remotely log in and upload the programs and correct everything.

All programing I do with N30's and controllers are done remotely and "free". I enjoy doing work to help out folks which have been screwed by the Big Blue.

integrator

[keepyoucool2003]

~

[2^3]

Does that mean yes?

[adrianfromoz]

All programing I do with N30's and controllers are done remotely


A note of caution particularly for those new to controls. While I have no reason to doubt Integrator's skills and technology has given us great options for remote diagnosis, there is no substitute for going into a plantroom and using our eyes, ears and nose in troubleshooting an installation.

While I have certainly remotely diagnosed problems before and will again, I wouldn't recommend doing significant changes remotely unless I knew the site and the client very well!

The best advise I ever heard when starting in controls was when first going to a site to resist the temptation to sit behind the PC and start at the pointy end!

Regards

[simux]

Great controller if programmed properly. Unfortunately it can be a problem controller in the wrong hands. With any controller you need to make sure that the person helping you out is comfotable with the DX-9100. Most the time you do have to reverse engineer the programming to figure out what the person before you did. My advice is ask for someone on this site close to you to come by and make it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[freddy-b]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHrwcQrY-JM

[simsd]

freddy-b.

Sometimes you're way too facetious, but that was good. LOL

[krac]

Johnson puchased a Euro outfit back in the early 1990's to fill the need for a configurable controller. The DX9100 is a decent controller if properly configured for the application, and very reliable. We have installed dozens of DX9100's and have had almost no failures.
The GX software is not a very friendly configuration tool, and the learning curve is steep. Looking at the raw modules without tags or documentation is a nightmare and depending on the problems, it is easier to just build a new config! Everyone who uses the DX expects a certain amount of tweeking to get the config right. Complex plant apps like your building sometimes need extensive tweeking.

You mention the DX is connected to an N30. Are there other N2 controllers or just the boiler DX? Do you have remote access (Modem or DSL) to the N30?
If you only have one DX that is 8 years old, failing, and can't get local Johnson support, I would look to finding a different vendor that is closer and can provide better support.

Either way it sounds like you need to go back to square one and start over.

1. Get out the original sequence of operation, or write a new one.
2. Build a new point list.
3. Gather up all original copies of the program.
4. Write a scope of work to replace, reprogram and recommission the DX9100.
Make sure to include a copy of M-Tools, training, and keep the old DX as
a spare. Include alternate to replace controller with different brand.
5. Setup some kind of remote access to allow vendor to troubleshoot problems

Good luck