Why in Gods Name do we need tools and test equipment ?

[icehouse]

:(:( After reading some of the posts to some of the treads I and others have posted here I am now convinced this industry should WAKE UP!
1. Why use a meter, when a pig-tail will do fine.
2. No need for a draft gauge, cigar smoke works well
3. No need for a thermometer, fell the lines with your hand
4. screwdrivers as pry bars
5. no need for gauges, just run a line from refrigerant tank to unit
6. Ribbons taped to diffusers, excellent to check CFM's
and what the hell, put pennies and pieces of copper pipe in place of fuses
And of course the hell with the customer, they just need it working. No need to explain anything, just bill them.
Yea right

[davidr]

2. No need for a draft gauge, cigar smoke works well



Lol...I am partial to this comment. :)

[Airmechanical]

:(:( After reading some of the posts to some of the treads I and others have posted here I am now convinced this industry should WAKE UP!
1. Why use a meter, when a pig-tail will do fine.
2. No need for a draft gauge, cigar smoke works well
3. No need for a thermometer, fell the lines with your hand
4. screwdrivers as pry bars
5. no need for gauges, just run a line from refrigerant tank to unit
6. Ribbons taped to diffusers, excellent to check CFM's
and what the hell, put pennies and pieces of copper pipe in place of fuses
And of course the hell with the customer, they just need it working. No need to explain anything, just bill them.
Yea right



what did you wake up and your ice house was warm?:)



.

[icehouse]

what did you wake up and your ice house was warm?:)



.
No, just tired of people complaining why we don't get the money or respect other trades do

[ptemko]

I have been told plenty of times that I am not a real trades person. From plumbers and electricians, millrights, to name a few. I did have a electrician call for a no heat and I have had a retired plumber call for a no heat. I had a millright say I should have got my gas ticket. I just look at them and smile.

Peter :D

[papa_jo]

thats funny ptemko.. i always heard it was real hard to be a plumber.
hot on the left, cold on the right, and chhhit always rolls downhill

[bustawrench1]

thats funny ptemko.. i always heard it was real hard to be a plumber.
hot on the left, cold on the right, and chhhit always rolls downhill

You forgot the most important part......................





Payday is Friday.

:D

[rich pickering]

You forgot the most important part......................





Payday is Friday.

:D

And that is why you guys are hacks. Real plumbers know that with enough pressure, it WILL run uphill.:p

[rich pickering]

Up here, you can serve an apprenticeship and get a journeyman ticket in most trades.

But we have four designated trades which means you have to have a ticket in order to work.

Electrician, sheet metal, A/C, and plumber/gasfitter. No such thing as an hvac ticket.

The only permit that homemoaners can get is an electrical permit to work on their own house.

And our inspectors have tickets.

[prolinehtg]

I would think we all agree we need multimeters, gauges, and thermometers. But when a new company comes out with a meter that makes me input the important info to diagnose a problem. Then I have a problem. I didn't go to school for hvac so some guy off the street can just take my job cause a meter walks him through the steps of diagnosing a piece of equipment. I dont fight technology. I embrace it but to some degree. You have to draw the line at some point. Besides don't you think a homeowner would be impressed if you could fix his furnace with your cigar,shoelace, a piece of gum and your jumper wire and maybe a shiny penny just for the shine.

[Chauncey]

1. Why use a meter, when fingers work fine and also curls hair nicely especially stinger leg on 3 phase to ground.
2. No need for a draft gauge, smoldering armaflex insulation works also.
3. No need for a thermometer, tell the apprentice to grab a hold of it his reaction time indicates temp.
4. Screwdrivers as punches, chisels and door jimmies.
5. Gauges are for shotguns sizes.
6. Panties taped to diffusers, small thong moving means there is some air flow, 4x bloomers fully inflated means lots of air flow excellent to check CFM's
and what the hell, box knock outs and bolts (cheaper than copper) in place of fuses.
7. Leave all of your garbage on the roof, attic, crawl space or basement.

Warning; The use of these methods will insure that us professionals will be will be labeled as hackers, butchers, Rubes, cobbers, etc.

You are right this industry needs to wake up. I am very fortunate that the company I work for cares about its techs first and the customer second. Our well being and safety are #1 with my boss (owner). A job is never left unsafe our license and reputation are at stake. Have a happy and safe new year.:)

[hearthman]

Lol...I am partial to this comment. :)


David, he's talking about calibrated cigars with NIST certificates....

Icehouse: you left out eyeballing the flame!

Happy New Year
Hearthman

[skoonen]

You forgot the most important part......................





Payday is Friday.

:D

I always thought the most important thing you learn as a plumber is dont bite your fingernails. ;)

[papa_jo]

I always thought the most important thing you learn as a plumber is dont bite your fingernails. ;)

now thats funny there I don't care who ya r !!!

[Biblepoet]

You also need to remember that all of those things used by "professionals" will help the real techs when we respond to their call backs

B-:D

[icehouse]

I would think we all agree we need multimeters, gauges, and thermometers. But when a new company comes out with a meter that makes me input the important info to diagnose a problem. Then I have a problem. I didn't go to school for hvac so some guy off the street can just take my job cause a meter walks him through the steps of diagnosing a piece of equipment. I dont fight technology. I embrace it but to some degree. You have to draw the line at some point. Besides don't you think a homeowner would be impressed if you could fix his furnace with your cigar,shoelace, a piece of gum and your jumper wire and maybe a shiny penny just for the shine.
Again you miss the boat. Also I doubt any schmoe off tyhe street knows what "Superheat and Subcooling" are. Also I find amazing is how many "Pros" lack this knowledge. Don't ask "Copeland" for any help as the first thing they will ask is whatare the specifics ie "Superheat, Subcooling, Suction Line Temperature, Liquid Line Temperature,Low and High Side Pressures, Amperage Draw, Voltage just to name a few.
Oh yes, don't forget Andy Schoen's guide to troubleshooting. Even "Fluke" has a troubleshooting guide showing where this information is obtained on a system.
Sorry to ramble on, but when I run classes for so called "Journeyman" and they are totally confused need I say more.

[bustawrench1]

And that is why you guys are hacks. .:p

Not me............I'm a HVAC guy, I get paid on Wednesday.:cool:


You're right though, somma them plumbers are hacks.............

worked with one that refused to use anything on refrigerant linesets, driers or txv's other than 50/50 and a sh*tload of paste flux.............:eek:

now, that is a total hack move.

Worst part is, the boss thinks he's the best guy he's got..........chased off all the real techs, cause they take to much time doing things right while plumber boy is out there ripping people off and blowing out twice the number of calls..............that's the real problem.

[prolinehtg]

Again you miss the boat. Also I doubt any schmoe off tyhe street knows what "Superheat and Subcooling" are. Also I find amazing is how many "Pros" lack this knowledge. Don't ask "Copeland" for any help as the first thing they will ask is whatare the specifics ie "Superheat, Subcooling, Suction Line Temperature, Liquid Line Temperature,Low and High Side Pressures, Amperage Draw, Voltage just to name a few.
Oh yes, don't forget Andy Schoen's guide to troubleshooting. Even "Fluke" has a troubleshooting guide showing where this information is obtained on a system.
Sorry to ramble on, but when I run classes for so called "Journeyman" and they are totally confused need I say more.

If you look at that meter we were talking about in the other thread it calculates subcooling and superheat for you by inputting the correct info. Same deal for those electronic refer gauges. They make it so any idiot can obtain the info. I agree alot of guys that I work with mostly installers do not even know how to correctly read superheat. Most of them charge by feel or pressures on the gauges. Is it the correct way of doing things? NO! Would I do it? NO! But to be honest with you most of these guys that do it don't have issues with what they are doing. Its interesting how many classes I have been to that end up being refreshers for superheat and subcooling. So I know what you are saying cause I been there. You want to teach more than just the basics. You know get a little more indepth on the product but you end up teaching basic refrigeration.

[jrbenny]

ISo I know what you are saying cause I been there. You want to teach more than just the basics. You know get a little more indepth on the product but you end up teaching basic refrigeration.
I'd love to teach at a higher lever. Unfortunately, I get deer in the headlights when I start using words like enthalpy.

Yes, AC troubleshooting classes turn into superheat and subcooling reviews.

[blk]

ENTHALPY: the total thermodynamic heat content of a system :) I had to look that one up.....sorry JR

[Reeferman]

If you look at that meter we were talking about in the other thread it calculates subcooling and superheat for you by inputting the correct info. Same deal for those electronic refer gauges. They make it so any idiot can obtain the info. I agree alot of guys that I work with mostly installers do not even know how to correctly read superheat. Most of them charge by feel or pressures on the gauges. Is it the correct way of doing things? NO! Would I do it? NO! But to be honest with you most of these guys that do it don't have issues with what they are doing. Its interesting how many classes I have been to that end up being refreshers for superheat and subcooling. So I know what you are saying cause I been there. You want to teach more than just the basics. You know get a little more indepth on the product but you end up teaching basic refrigeration.


What are you talking about??

[ndfrozen]

Thats the look I give my girlfriend, when she says, I ain't gitting any.:D

[royc]

Thats the look I give my girlfriend, when she says, I ain't gitting any.:D

rofl...

Thats a good one..lol

Roy

[weber]

Not me............I'm a HVAC guy, I get paid on Wednesday.:cool:


You're right though, somma them plumbers are hacks.............

worked with one that refused to use anything on refrigerant linesets, driers or txv's other than 50/50 and a sh*tload of paste flux.............:eek:

now, that is a total hack move.

Worst part is, the boss thinks he's the best guy he's got..........chased off all the real techs, cause they take to much time doing things right while plumber boy is out there ripping people off and blowing out twice the number of calls..............that's the real problem.

What is a plumber doing touching refrigerant lines??????

[prolinehtg]

What are you talking about??

What are you talking about?

[Reeferman]

If you look at that meter we were talking about in the other thread it calculates subcooling and superheat for you by inputting the correct info. Same deal for those electronic refer gauges. They make it so any idiot can obtain the info. I agree alot of guys that I work with mostly installers do not even know how to correctly read superheat. Most of them charge by feel or pressures on the gauges. Is it the correct way of doing things? NO! Would I do it? NO! But to be honest with you most of these guys that do it don't have issues with what they are doing. Its interesting how many classes I have been to that end up being refreshers for superheat and subcooling. So I know what you are saying cause I been there. You want to teach more than just the basics. You know get a little more indepth on the product but you end up teaching basic refrigeration.

Well if I am reading what you wrote above right, it appears that you think anyone using new technology is an idiot. Any idiot can type on a keyboard, does that make you an idiot?

Using new technology to gather information is one thing, using new technology and knowing what to do with the information is something else.

[MechAcc]

Why do we use test equipment?

To avoid being picketed by PETA for using canaries for Carbon Monoxide tests. :eek:

[hvacbear]

6. Ribbons taped to diffusers, excellent to check CFM's
and what the hell, put pennies and pieces of copper pipe in place of fuses
And of course the hell with the customer, they just need it working. No need to explain anything, just bill them.
Yea right

What is wrong with an "Extreem slow blow fuse" ?

[icehouse]

What is wrong with an "Extreem slow blow fuse" ?

I was being sarcastic. Duh

[icehouse]

Well if I am reading what you wrote above right, it appears that you think anyone using new technology is an idiot. Any idiot can type on a keyboard, does that make you an idiot?

Using new technology to gather information is one thing, using new technology and knowing what to do with the information is something else.
:D:D:D Thank God somebody understands what I was talking about.
It is not the equipment that makes a good technician, rather the understanding of and how to use it.
It is embarrising to give a class team teaching with the VP of Ranco controls only to have students (all journeyman UA), and they can't even use a DMM.

[bustawrench1]

It is embarrising to give a class team teaching with the VP of Ranco controls only to have students (all journeyman UA), and they can't even use a DMM.


What does that say about our apprentice program? :eek:

[prolinehtg]

Well if I am reading what you wrote above right, it appears that you think anyone using new technology is an idiot. Any idiot can type on a keyboard, does that make you an idiot?

Using new technology to gather information is one thing, using new technology and knowing what to do with the information is something else.

I am ok with new technology. But when it gets to the point where you dont have to use any common sense or knowledge to repair something. Thats when I have a problem. For instance when the day comes that a equipment manufacturer decides to put a talk button on their equipment. So when you walk up to it and hit it is says "clean flame sensor" or "I have an open ignitor". Then are you going to embrace this technology? So any homeowner can start to repair their own stuff.

[Reeferman]

I am ok with new technology. But when it gets to the point where you dont have to use any common sense or knowledge to repair something. Thats when I have a problem. For instance when the day comes that a equipment manufacturer decides to put a talk button on their equipment. So when you walk up to it and hit it is says "clean flame sensor" or "I have an open ignitor". Then are you going to embrace this technology? So any homeowner can start to repair their own stuff.


I agree with the common sense or knowledge statement. However when Copeland and the other oem's are getting a 60% no problem found with compressors that have been returned for warranty because the true root of the problem has not been diagnosed and repaired in the first place or a tv show busts crooked and or incompetent techs then we can hardly blame them or the homeowner for wanting this technology.

Doug Lockhart who owns Digicool has always said that he does not want to have a tool that takes the human factor out of the equation. I have been guilty just like everyone else for thinking that a certain technology is going to diagnose and repair the problem only to find out that without the proper training, experience and common sense the technology was worthless in the wrong hands.

Icehouse is right about alot (not all) of journeyman not knowing how to operate a dvom properly to diagnose problems in electrical, what various temperatures are telling them or what improper airflow causes.

There has always been and will always be employers and customers who want the cheapest possible job done, so we have to embrace the technology to make ourselves more professional, diagnose and repair problems more accurately, faster to either demand more from the employer/customer or continue and suffer the consequences.

[weber]

What does that say about our apprentice program? :eek:

We hired a four year apprentice, who recently graduated a known trade school. He talked about doing this and that. Well, he rode with me for the 1st few weeks. He was petrified to put a set of gauges on a piece of equipment. Super heat was calculated buy subtracting ambient air temp from suction line temp.

I could not believe the things that this guy didn't know, or thought he knew...

[tjc76]

You forgot the most important part......................





Payday is Friday.

:D

most important: don't bite your fingernails

[hvacbear]

Houston we have a problem!!!

It's everywhere and what are we going to do?

[bustawrench1]

We hired a four year apprentice...............


I could not believe the things that this guy didn't know, or thought he knew...

I hear you there...........I just can't understand how these guys go through school and 4 or 5 years of OJT and still don't know a dang thing.

[Doug Lockhart]

Houston we have a problem!!!

It's everywhere and what are we going to do?

Sorry ... dumb thumbs.... as above

[Doug Lockhart]

Houston we have a problem!!!

It's everywhere and what are we going to do?

The Real tradesmen will lead by attraction rather than promotion....hard on the pocket book for a respectable portion of time but all we have is our reputation...and it will get known....believe you me. Then and only then will the insulting justifications from the customer to us be dropped.....
In 32 years I have NEVER seen a A,B, or C class electrician be able to follow a controls diagram, understand an impedance relay or what back EMF it took to pull out a Pot. Relay for a 5 HP LBP can!! Then throw in the reason why the contactors are eating contacts on a GHP 5 ton H/P is a lagging PF.!!!
I have also never had a plumber understand why the water outlet line on a water cooled condensing unit did NOT need slope.!!!
I have also NEVER had a Tinny agree that the Heat Pumps R/A should be sized at 700 fpm max. so the nominal cfm/ton would be in the proper 450 fpm range. They also steadfastly claim that an 8" X 36" wall R/A is just that and not really a 3 1/2" X 30" because that's the wall/stud cavity size...!!!

BUT we HVAC/R Techs are continually called Prima Donnas for insisting that all the above be adhered to for a successful job. Should it not be and the system blow up; the plumber, sparky and tinny all stand there like the RCA dog and say I'm not the HVAC technician!!! SOUND FAMILIAR?

We choose the trade....we must have the bigger shoulders....we must also have the better tools.....the better work ethic for saving downed midnite machines....the better business ethics....the better drive and motivation .....we could have picked the easier softer way....That's why I wanted and consequently built the DRSA...to give me the crucial accurate information to allow me to suffer through the 'reputation wait period' and still be able to feed my family without the costly callbacks and lost time on a contract job...some of the other trades will always call you a prima donna.....that's human nature unfortunately.
I'll put my soap box away now.;)

[icehouse]

What does that say about our apprentice program? :eek::confused::confused:
It needs a complete overhaul, starting with some of the instructors. Example we had an instructor whose class was "Electricity and Controls for HVAC/R", instead he was teaching "House Wiring" nothing about controls.

[artman934]

What does that say about our apprentice program? :eek:

thats the thing, chances are only guys in the last 10-12 years have really been through the apprentice program ( new york steamfitters 638)

the other problem is, most guys that didnt go through the apprentice program, wont take the time for the free advanced classes offered at night or on saturdays

[icehouse]

:confused::confused: I was an instructor for Service fitters Apprentice Training Local 638 as well as Operating Engineers Local 94.
At 94 we had a lot of Journeymen that wanted to attend training, but could not as the class was filled with 1st &2nd year Apprentices who were there because it was "Mandatory", many that did not want to be there.

[artman934]

:confused::confused: I was an instructor for Service fitters Apprentice Training Local 638 as well as Operating Engineers Local 94.
At 94 we had a lot of Journeymen that wanted to attend training, but could not as the class was filled with 1st &2nd year Apprentices who were there because it was "Mandatory", many that did not want to be there.

icehouse, you're right about guys being there because it's mandatory, i try to attend alot of mike mcfarlands saturday classes, and its always the bigger companies that make it mandatory for a group of 6 or 7 guys to go, and they leave at 11 after who ever of them in charge has had enough... i wont mention names like donnelly

[bustawrench1]

thats the thing, chances are only guys in the last 10-12 years have really been through the apprentice program

the other problem is, most guys that didnt go through the apprentice program, wont take the time for the free advanced classes offered at night or on saturdays

Well, I don't know about New York, but I do know that on this side of the River we could stand some improvement in our training system.

[icehouse]

icehouse, you're right about guys being there because it's mandatory, i try to attend alot of mike mcfarlands saturday classes, and its always the bigger companies that make it mandatory for a group of 6 or 7 guys to go, and they leave at 11 after who ever of them in charge has had enough... i wont mention names like donnelly
:D:D:D:D