Goodman Heat pump products vs trane lower seer units

[Fishman15]

I have received 5 quotes from 4 different contractors for a dual fuel system. All 4 contractors pushed Trane XR13 units. However, the general consensus was that Goodman makes a good product and is gaining popularity. I had a Goodman in another house and was generally pleased. Would it be better to install the Trane XR13 4 ton heat pump with a Goodman 95% gas furnance (non Variable speed) or install a Goodman 14 Seer High efficiency heat pump with the 95% Gas furnace with Variable speed? They estimates comparable in price.

[RoBoTeq]

No matter which way you go, a variable speed blower is the way to do it for better control of air and humidity along with year round energy savings.

[Fishman15]

What is your experience with Goodman and the warranties?

[Irishmist]

warranty administration is reasonable with most major manufacturers. I am surprised by the fact that you got 4 quotes from a brand you weren't familiar with, but only 1 from the brand you had first-hand experience with. If you were pleased with the Goodman product in your other home, why not give them thy thumbs up?

A quality installation will be determined by the contractor not by the product.

the best warranty experience is to have had NO warranty experience. :D

all the best, Irish

[BaldLoonie]

I think you'll find that the Goodman 14 gives better heating performance than anything Trane. Let's look:

GSH14048, 14.00 SEER 8.50 HSPF, 46,000 BTU heat at 47°, 29,000 BTU at 17°

2TWR3048, 13.00 SEER 8.00 HSPF, 41,500 BTU and 24,000 BTU heating

The Goodman will cost quite a bit less to heat with since less backup is needed due to the better output. I think Trane is a better built product (excluding compressor) but the Goodman will do fine if sized & installed right and has a better warranty.

[Fishman15]

I am familiar with both, however, I have felt that you pay for the Trane name. It is more of a fact finding experience for my wife. She believes in Brand recognition. I look for the overall best value, not necessarily price but value for your dollar. The thing that really concerns me is that I have 4 quotes with 4 different load calculations and I recieved at least 3 different unit sizes. 3 ton to 4 ton. I have a 3 ton central A/C unit with oil heat. Oil does great but A/C does not do the job at all. The contractor who I am using (I feel more comfortable with) is installing a 4 ton and also insulating my duct work and adding 2 new returns. Everyone else, was going to install 3.5 and 3 but not adding insulation to my duct work. Does this sound like they know what they are doing?

[bmathews]

I would say go for the variable speed. You'll be very happy. That said, and I'm not brand bashing. I do this for a living and would choose a Trane over a Goodman any day. Goodman is ok, probably better than they used to be. If you can afford a full Trane setup go with it. If not, then go with the Goodman matched variable speed setup. Where do you live you need such a high efficient furnace for backup heat? Seems like you might do better off with an 80% furnace variable speed than going with 95%. IMO, dual fuel isn't worth it unless you can only get propane.

[RoBoTeq]

I think you'll find that the Goodman 14 gives better heating performance than anything Trane. Let's look:

GSH14048, 14.00 SEER 8.50 HSPF, 46,000 BTU heat at 47°, 29,000 BTU at 17°

2TWR3048, 13.00 SEER 8.00 HSPF, 41,500 BTU and 24,000 BTU heating

The Goodman will cost quite a bit less to heat with since less backup is needed due to the better output. I think Trane is a better built product (excluding compressor) but the Goodman will do fine if sized & installed right and has a better warranty.

Plus, when used with a variable speed blower that GSH14 is rated at 15 SEER.

[RoBoTeq]

I would say go for the variable speed. You'll be very happy. That said, and I'm not brand bashing. I do this for a living and would choose a Trane over a Goodman any day. Goodman is ok, probably better than they used to be. If you can afford a full Trane setup go with it. If not, then go with the Goodman matched variable speed setup. Where do you live you need such a high efficient furnace for backup heat? Seems like you might do better off with an 80% furnace variable speed than going with 95%. IMO, dual fuel isn't worth it unless you can only get propane.

Are you really suggesting to use an 80% gas furnace "AND" that a dual fuel system is not worth.....what? Just what is a dual fuel system not worth?

Oh yea, and I do this for a living as well, only as a professional.

[RoBoTeq]

I am familiar with both, however, I have felt that you pay for the Trane name. It is more of a fact finding experience for my wife. She believes in Brand recognition. I look for the overall best value, not necessarily price but value for your dollar. The thing that really concerns me is that I have 4 quotes with 4 different load calculations and I recieved at least 3 different unit sizes. 3 ton to 4 ton. I have a 3 ton central A/C unit with oil heat. Oil does great but A/C does not do the job at all. The contractor who I am using (I feel more comfortable with) is installing a 4 ton and also insulating my duct work and adding 2 new returns. Everyone else, was going to install 3.5 and 3 but not adding insulation to my duct work. Does this sound like they know what they are doing?

If your wife is attracted to brand names, tell her that the Goodman stuff is pretty much Amana...which it is.

[geodude]

Just a note I love Trane and it is an excellent Brand very low warranty call backs, The note that was posted earlier was comparing a 2twr3048 This is an xr13 heat pump ( 13 seer ) and the goodman was a 14 seer. The 2twr4048 is a 14 seer and it hits 9.0 hspf and 14 seer with or without an ecm air handler, (but not 15 like the goodman.) I have installed both and the Trane is higher quality. But Good man has improved their product ALOT recently. Every one, have a great new year!

[hivacjack]

.....it so happens that the 2twr4048 has been discontinued. Why talk about it. Some including me might consider it somewhat unethical to sell and install it over a current and much improved CURRENT model TRANE such as (for instance the 4TWX5048A1 4 TON unit. This guy is 14-15 SEER, 8.5-9HSPF 49000BTUH at 47F, 31000BTUH at 17F. More expensive than the GOODMAN
but about 10db quieter also. On top of that TRANE pulled themselves up by
thier bootstraps and managed to place ahead of GOODMAN in the 2007 J D POWER survey. :):)

[geodude]

Ah yes! you are correct! The r-22 will still be available for a while, but the original comparison was listed as a 2twr3030 (also r-22). We sell the heck out of the XL15i and it is our biggest seller! The 4twx5 also now is available up to 5 ton!:o

[BaldLoonie]

The 2twr4048 is a 14 seer and it hits 9.0 hspf and 14 seer with or without an ecm air handler

You better tell ARI that. Best they show with a coil only match is 13.50 with a big slab coil. With the 2TEC air handler, 13.25 is best. Only way to hit 14.00 or above is with most 2TEE air handlers or a VERY FEW XV or X13 furnace/coil combos. Looking at the ratings, maybe 10% of the XR14/XV furnace combos hit 14.

[bmathews]

Are you really suggesting to use an 80% gas furnace "AND" that a dual fuel system is not worth.....what? Just what is a dual fuel system not worth?

Oh yea, and I do this for a living as well, only as a professional.

If you are a professional, then tell me how the price difference between a dual fuel 90%+ system vs. the price difference on an 80% efficient variable speed furnace is worth it. We know what the difference in price is without mentioning it on here. Unless you are in a VERY cold climate you will never make back your money for a backup source of heat. Most heat pumps will keep up to a very low temperature (my experience being 10-20 degrees unless moisture is in the air) before having to kick on aux. heat. So unless you're running propane or are once again VERY cold. It will not pay for itself. Calm down, I was not insulting your precious Goodman, just expressing MY OPINION that I would take a Trane over a Goodman if I didn't care about the price. For the price, there is nothing the matter with a Goodman. I have nothing to do with Amana, so I cannot give my opinion on them. Only the Goodman's that I have serviced more often than Trane. You are not insulted for your opinions, so do not insult me for mine. Grow up. You are not the prima donna you think you are. This is a forum to discuss HVAC, not shot down because we do not agree with the mighty ROBOTEQ. I am sick and tired of you bullying everybody who does not agree with you.

[geodude]

MYYYYYYY BAAAAAAD! I looked at the 2twr4030! By the way the 2twr does hit 14 seer and 9.0 hspf with the 2tee3d airhandler. But not with the furnaces as you noted! Time for me to get a cup of coffee! Have a great new year!:o

[RoBoTeq]

.....it so happens that the 2twr4048 has been discontinued. Why talk about it. Some including me might consider it somewhat unethical to sell and install it over a current and much improved CURRENT model TRANE such as (for instance the 4TWX5048A1 4 TON unit. This guy is 14-15 SEER, 8.5-9HSPF 49000BTUH at 47F, 31000BTUH at 17F. More expensive than the GOODMAN
but about 10db quieter also. On top of that TRANE pulled themselves up by
thier bootstraps and managed to place ahead of GOODMAN in the 2007 J D POWER survey. :):)

Do you have a copy of that survey? The last one I saw had Lennox and Goodman nearly tied for first place with Lennox about 1/2% in the lead.

[RoBoTeq]

If you are a professional, then tell me how the price difference between a dual fuel 90%+ system vs. the price difference on an 80% efficient variable speed furnace is worth it. We know what the difference in price is without mentioning it on here. Unless you are in a VERY cold climate you will never make back your money for a backup source of heat. Most heat pumps will keep up to a very low temperature (my experience being 10-20 degrees unless moisture is in the air) before having to kick on aux. heat. So unless you're running propane or are once again VERY cold. It will not pay for itself. Calm down, I was not insulting your precious Goodman, just expressing MY OPINION that I would take a Trane over a Goodman if I didn't care about the price. For the price, there is nothing the matter with a Goodman. I have nothing to do with Amana, so I cannot give my opinion on them. Only the Goodman's that I have serviced more often than Trane. You are not insulted for your opinions, so do not insult me for mine. Grow up. You are not the prima donna you think you are. This is a forum to discuss HVAC, not shot down because we do not agree with the mighty ROBOTEQ. I am sick and tired of you bullying everybody who does not agree with you.

So sorry you are so sick and tired. Maybe you should go to bed early tonight with the rest of the children.

There has not been one mention of brand in any of my posts, so your claim to my thinking you have insulted a specific brand is as useless as your advice on efficiencies of furnaces. You are the only one blowing the horn for a brand. For what your opinions are worth, I for one would not want you supporting a brand I backed.

The conversation is on 80% furnaces vs condensing furnaces that are 15% more efficient and dual fuel comfort and savings. No matter what the cost of fossil fuels, they are still less expensive then resistance electric and a lot more comfortable.

Now, get yourself a bottle and have mommy tuck you in before you get paddled for having a temper tantrum:rolleyes:

[geodude]

In Oregon ( where I live ) There is a state tax credit of 350.00 AND up untill jan 1 a fed tax credit of 150, and an energy trust incentive of up to 200.00 (not including any manu. rebates). This usually drives the consumer to purchase the 90%+ furnace as the incentives nearly pay for the upgrade. A heatpump on a 80% ecm furnace usually rates higher in effciencies ( at least with Trane) when combined with a heatpump because there is less friction penalty due to the fact that the 80 has no secondary heat exchanger. Dual fuel systems are very popular here, one reason is that during power outages (we are in a rural area) it does not take much of a generator to run a gas or oil furnace.

[dave82323]

Dont buy trane for the name , buy a unit that is going to be properly installed and started up. Goodman is getting much better and the waranty is 10 year compressor and parts and labor waranties are available. variable speed rocks....I was disappointed when trane started using those polimar plastic blower housings in there air handlers and when they went to the plastic louvers on there residential package units. remember NEVER go with the low bidder, spend a little more money now or a lot later. make sure your contractors perform a load calc.....good luck..

[hivacjack]

Do you have a copy of that survey? The last one I saw had Lennox and Goodman nearly tied for first place with Lennox about 1/2% in the lead.



........go to jdpower.com and incert HVAC into the search window.

[bmathews]

So sorry you are so sick and tired. Maybe you should go to bed early tonight with the rest of the children.

There has not been one mention of brand in any of my posts, so your claim to my thinking you have insulted a specific brand is as useless as your advice on efficiencies of furnaces. You are the only one blowing the horn for a brand. For what your opinions are worth, I for one would not want you supporting a brand I backed.

The conversation is on 80% furnaces vs condensing furnaces that are 15% more efficient and dual fuel comfort and savings. No matter what the cost of fossil fuels, they are still less expensive then resistance electric and a lot more comfortable.

Now, get yourself a bottle and have mommy tuck you in before you get paddled for having a temper tantrum:rolleyes:

You didn't support a brand on this particular thread. But reading posts from you in the past. I think most on here know your particular affinity for Goodman products. He asked a specific question regarding Trane vs. Goodman. I did not bring the Trane into this thread, the OP did. HE ASKED our opinion, which I gave. I'm not going to argue with you. You know what I'm talking about with a heat pump and how long they can run before aux. heat comes on. Yes, electric heat is inefficient as heck. IF you have a long cold winter, then YES a 90 furnace is worth it. If you DO NOT have a long cold winter, then NO a 90 furnace is not worth it. Given that most people only live in their homes 5-7 years before moving to a new one. Once again, rather than try to have a civil conversation/debate, you resort to attacking people. A lot of posts I read on here where you are involved, you become agitated and resort to attacking people. If you are as knowledgeable as you appear to be or think you are, (I do not know your history or work experience in the industry or what you do now) I would think you would try to use reason and educate people. I will help people whenever I can. Our industry has a bad name, and when people come on here and read some of your posts, it just re-affirms their opinions. I won't sell a homeowner something they don't need, no matter how much money is involved. Without knowing more specifics, I do not believe it would benefit him to buy more than he needs.

[skoonen]

The contractor who I am using (I feel more comfortable with) is installing a 4 ton and also insulating my duct work and adding 2 new returns. Everyone else, was going to install 3.5 and 3 but not adding insulation to my duct work. Does this sound like they know what they are doing?

This is the only choice that really matters, and you seem to have made the right one already. You could buy the highest end equipment out there, but if its not sized right or properly ducted it wont work worth a damn. Id go with whichever equipment this guy is offering, if he offers both then Id probably go with the goodman due to the 10yr warranty. Then you can use the money saved to get some airquality upgrades; whole house humidifier, high quality filtration, uv light, etc.

[RoBoTeq]

You didn't support a brand on this particular thread. But reading posts from you in the past. I think most on here know your particular affinity for Goodman products. He asked a specific question regarding Trane vs. Goodman. I did not bring the Trane into this thread, the OP did. HE ASKED our opinion, which I gave. I'm not going to argue with you. You know what I'm talking about with a heat pump and how long they can run before aux. heat comes on. Yes, electric heat is inefficient as heck. IF you have a long cold winter, then YES a 90 furnace is worth it. If you DO NOT have a long cold winter, then NO a 90 furnace is not worth it. Given that most people only live in their homes 5-7 years before moving to a new one. Once again, rather than try to have a civil conversation/debate, you resort to attacking people. A lot of posts I read on here where you are involved, you become agitated and resort to attacking people. If you are as knowledgeable as you appear to be or think you are, (I do not know your history or work experience in the industry or what you do now) I would think you would try to use reason and educate people. I will help people whenever I can. Our industry has a bad name, and when people come on here and read some of your posts, it just re-affirms their opinions. I won't sell a homeowner something they don't need, no matter how much money is involved. Without knowing more specifics, I do not believe it would benefit him to buy more than he needs.

I was not attacking you at all, just letting you know why your opinions in this case are absurd. Then again, that is just "my" opinion. I really cannot fathom what has got you in such an uproar. It's ok to be wrong;)

80% furnaces are so bad of an idea for use in most applications north of the lower Southern states that they are being forced out of several states as far as even being legal to install. At the cost of "properly" installing a new 80% furnace to prevent them from self destruction due to condensate issues it is most times more feasable to install the much more efficient condensing furnaces.

As for not using a fossil fuel system as auxilliary heat for a heat pump system, again, the energy savings along with the comfort advantages completely support dual fuel systems anywhere it gets below 40 degrees.

It is you who has attacked me completely without reason. You have attacked me with claims as to a brand loyalty on this site when the fact is that I have posted positive posts about every brand out there as well as negative posts regarding the brand I currently represent. On this site, my only loyalty is to the HVAC industry.

If you want to be taken somewhat serious, at least become a professional member so we can better discuss the nuances of various systems in the professional forums.

And just so you know, I don't become agitated when posting here. I post here because I enjoy it. May I suggest that you too try to enjoy rather then becoming upset, or would that be another flaw in my character to you?

[beenthere]

I'd choose the one with the best operating cost.

You pay foir the installation once.
You pay for its operation virtually every month.

[geodude]

I would rather have the best trained tech install a " bargin brand " system then a over sold "top shelf" brand by untrained "heating guys" Ask for referalls, check refrences, Know your contractor ask for proof of training such as NATE, RSES certifications.

[warmncomfy]

My Advice is that you should not take anyones advice on brand from this forum. the majority of the people inhere that are qualified also sell thebrand they support. do research locally as the installer is as important as brand. I sell Trane so i say go with Trane.

[RoBoTeq]

My Advice is that you should not take anyones advice on brand from this forum. the majority of the people inhere that are qualified also sell thebrand they support. do research locally as the installer is as important as brand. I sell Trane so i say go with Trane.

:DGood advice right to the end. Well, just short of the end:p

Another thing to consider in brand is how well the brand your contractor wants to install is supported locally. If a brand of equipment is not locally supported to the contractor, the contractor is automatically at a disadvantage to support that brand in a consumers home.

[gary_g]

Plus, when used with a variable speed blower that GSH14 is rated at 15 SEER.

The optional TXV must be installed to get 15 SEER (12.5 EER) from the GSH14 heat pump.

[RoBoTeq]

The optional TXV must be installed to get 15 SEER (12.5 EER) from the GSH14 heat pump.

Should use a txv no matter what.

[smokin68]

Should use a txv no matter what.

I thought you were a orifice guy??? He got ya.......:D

[RoBoTeq]

I thought you were a orifice guy??? He got ya.......:D

Got me with a double entendre too, depending on which orifice you are referring to:eek:

For condensing units and heat pumps, I am fine with fixed metering as long application factors are conducive. If a system is going to be operated in cooling mode at lower then 70 degree outdoor temps on over 13 SEER systems, I prefer to see txv metering.

For this particular set up there are only a few ratings that don't require a txv and most of them are for horizontal slab coils. I guess that rating with fixed orifice might give some edge on systems that are super tightly bid. Other then that, I see no reason to rate without the txv.