Trane System not Working

[bkish]

We recently had a 3 Ton Trane XL16i with VS air handler and 90% Efficiency gas furnace as back up installed.

Our house is 2200 square feet, 13 registers and basically a log cabin with insulation only in the ceiling and floor and lots of windows.

As the weather in the Northwest has cooled we have noticed several problems.

1) Vent temps of 75-80 degrees, sometimes higher, but not much.
2) The system constantly runs trying to maintain 65 degrees
3) If we ask for a 1 degree temp rise the system can do this incrementally to a point (approx 69 degrees) but if we ask for a 2 degree or more rise the temp in the house will FALL

This is with outdoor temps of around 40 degrees.

The first time the tech came out he thought an expansion valve at the compressor unit was bad and replaced it. Reasoning, the smaller line exiting the indoor coil was cold and the larger lineset was never really hot.

With this change the lineset is blazing hot, the small line still cold and the vent temps went up maybe a degree. He fiddled with the amount of charge and left again.

Came back and noted the coil (high efficiency) was very hot near the inlets but rapidly cooled. He thought something was wrong (plugged, etc) and replaced all the dryers, flushed the system and recharged. No change.

The ducts have been checked. Not intake leaks and no vent leaks.

I'm frustrated, they're frustrated and I'm looking for a fresh set of eyes to look into this. Not what I expect for the money spent.

Is this an issue with the system, the techs/installer or is the system undersized? All of the above?

Thanks

[cmajerus]

How does the system do on gas heat? Have them make sure the wiring is correct per the OUTDOOR install specs, Is this a separate A/H or is the heat pump installed with the furnace? Little confused on that, as you shouldn't need 2 indoor units. The install guide for the furnace has 2 stage wiring diagram not 2 step. If they wired it with the indoor schematic it is wired wrong. the proper wiring diagram is on page 5 of the outdoor units install guide I believe.

[RyanHughes]

Was a load calculation done to determine proper sizing? You say your home is like a log cabin; I'm guessing that means a lot of heat loss. Trane is a bit weak on heat output. Do you have the model number of the furnace and coil so the BTU/H output can be checked? A "blazing hot" lineset does not mean the system is properly charged. Is the ductwork insulated? Is the ductwork in a crawlspace? A bit more info is needed.

[bkish]

The indoor unit is one large construct. Air filter, air handler and gas furnace portion and then coil.

The system is fine on the gas side of things. Just expensive.

Not sure about the indoor/outdoor thing you mention.

The duct work is insulated and no a heat calc wasn't done. No one offered or seemed to think it necessary when asked. Five estimates four wanted a 3 ton one wanted a 2.5.

Furnace number I can't find. Does TDY100r9V4W sound right?
Coil 4TXCC037AS3HCAA

Hope this helps

[RyanHughes]

It looks like that match up (although it is a 3 ton system) doesn't even give 2.5 tons of heating when the heat pump is used. Might not be enough for the 2200 square foot "log cabin." ARI Ref. #797841

[bkish]

Ryan,

What is the ref # you refer to? I went to the ARI site but can't find the reference.

Why, if it's a 3 ton system would I get less than 2.5 tons of heat?

Even if the system is undersized can't I expect vent temps of greater than 75degrees?

[RyanHughes]

Ryan,

What is the ref # you refer to? I went to the ARI site but can't find the reference.

Why, if it's a 3 ton system would I get less than 2.5 tons of heat?

Even if the system is undersized can't I expect vent temps of greater than 75degrees?

Put that reference number in here where it asks for the reference number: http://aridirectory.org/ari/hp.php. The capacity for heating is 29,600 BTU/H (2.5 tons is 30,000 BTU/H). Trane has issues with getting the full heating capacity if you aren't careful matching the equipment up. You should be getting higher air temperatures, which is why it is possible that you may not have the correct refrigerant charge. You should have your pro back out to look at your system further.

[warmncomfy]

i think cmajerus may be onto the problem. the XL16i can be a bit confusing to wire becuase the indoor unit has one diagram the tstat another one and then the outdoor unit another. to get the heat pump operating right it has to be wired to diagram on outside. i made the same mistake when i first started using XL16i. however this is just a hunch as it is hard to say without being there. if they have been using this equipment combo for a whilethen they probably have it right and there may be another problem. One more thing is to check with company and see if it is in restricted mode, not allowing gas until certain temp, that can cause long cycles as well not really a prob but is not what many people are used to. When the system is wired right you should have a lower fan speed on first step of compressor and full speed on second. There are also dip switches in furnace to set heat pump size to match with air flow.

[bkish]

They are due out this week. At least I have a direction to point them.

I am curious why, if it were wired wrong, it would run but not put out a lot of heat. To me wiring is an on/off phenomenon. It works or it doesn't.

I think the system isn't correctly sized but the flip side is that I don't think this one is running right.

For instance, tonight it ran all night to maintain 65 degrees. The line set was warm, the vent temps 78 ish. If I bump the request up to 67 degrees the line set gets very hot (about 135 degrees) but the vent temps don't change.

[hvacrmedic]

They are due out this week. At least I have a direction to point them.

I am curious why, if it were wired wrong, it would run but not put out a lot of heat. To me wiring is an on/off phenomenon. It works or it doesn't.

I think the system isn't correctly sized but the flip side is that I don't think this one is running right.

For instance, tonight it ran all night to maintain 65 degrees. The line set was warm, the vent temps 78 ish. If I bump the request up to 67 degrees the line set gets very hot (about 135 degrees) but the vent temps don't change.

Your data doesn't add up. You're probably assuming something that isn't so. There is no way for the line temp to rise, vent temp to remain the same, and the house temp to fall all at the same time, unless it was already falling before you bumped up the t-stat setting. Offhand it sounds like the unit is too small and/or the blower is moving too much air. Aside from that, the furnace should probably be kicking in at around 40º, which it apparently isn't set to do. In the upper NW, if the unit was sized for cooling, then 3 tons may be all that was called for. Unfortunately for you northerners, air source heat pumps are really worth crap because the heating end is too small when the cooling end is sized just right. Conversely, Floridians often have way more heat than they needed in winter, causing excessive short-cycling of their heat pumps. Here in the mid south the balance between cooling and heating is just about right. A two stage heat pump can be made to work well for you in the north, but in order to do so it must be oversized on the cooling end, running in low speed through much of the cooling season. Your system does not however appear to have been oversized any, let alone enough.

I suggest you have them either work with you on upsizing the system, or else at least set the change-over temp higher, to the outside temp that is just a few degrees higher than the temp at which the heat pump begins to run continuously.

[bkish]

I'm not sure why it would have more trouble keeping up (or lose temp) if I raise the temp, but it does. Too much air against a too cool coil, packing up, etc

Can someone answer some basic questions:

What is a good lineset temp on the second stage of the compressor? Is 135 in the ballpark?

What is a good vent temp for a heat pump system? A well installed, tyopical system.

Should the smaller line coming from the coil be warm, cold or room temp.

Should the coil in the airhandler be uniformly hot, cold at the middle? The bottom?

[Haley0123]

sounds like more wasted electricity. get that gas goin'. not sure what outdoor temp yer at but it sounds colder than 40. heat pumps cant keep up here in Chicago ( except maybe multi-unit bldg) we have some but always with elec heat strips or gas supplement
drywall or log interior- if drywall you can have insulation injected with little damage

[hvacrmedic]

I'm not sure why it would have more trouble keeping up (or lose temp) if I raise the temp, but it does. Too much air against a too cool coil, packing up, etc

Can someone answer some basic questions:

What is a good lineset temp on the second stage of the compressor? Is 135 in the ballpark?

What is a good vent temp for a heat pump system? A well installed, tyopical system.

Should the smaller line coming from the coil be warm, cold or room temp.

Should the coil in the airhandler be uniformly hot, cold at the middle? The bottom?

The line temp is in the ballpark.

The supply air temp will vary considerably and depends upon several factors. As the outdoor temp falls the heating capacity of the heat pump will drop. Corresponding to the reduction in capacity will be a lowering of supply air temperature. The supply air temperature also depends upon the volume of air flowing through the indoor coil, and upon the return air temp and to some extent on duct heat loss.

Because of the above factors, there is no lower limit to the supply air temp. It can even be lower than return air temp under extremely cold outdoor conditions, due to duct heat loss alone, though that would be an unusual situation.

The upper limit for supply air temp depends upon the type of system, air volume, and indoor and outdoor temps. I would consider a 50º rise to be a little too much rise, but it could be normal too. Without the performance data for the system I'd only be guessing.

The coil temp will not be uniform.

[beenthere]

Indoor blower speed may be set too high.
Sounds like he tried to adjust charge in first stage.

[bkish]

The business owner is basically saying it is what it is. Live with it.

He states only a 15 to 20 degree rise in supply air temp is accurate.

He feels we should change crossover point to propane at 45 degrees (negating the use of a heat pump some 4-5 months of the year so why did we buy one...)

He seemed genuinely surprised about the heating capacity as being less than 2.5 tons and said "We'll have to look into that..." In other words nothing will likely be done. He did state that 3 tons is based on cooling capacity (which we don't need). And, I suppose, if the total heating capacity is 2.5 tons and the thing runs on the first stage (70%) then we really only have 1.75 tons of heat until the second stage kicks in.

And he feels the compressor running for 8 to 10 hours at a time is A-OK.

If I can't get satisfaction from him is the next step going to Trane directly?

[beenthere]

Calling Trane is a good place to start.
Trane will direct you to the local distributor.
They will call your installer. Hopefully a factory tech will come out with them.

[bkish]

Sorry to be redundant.

Is a heat rise in supply temp of 15-20 degrees good?

He states he can't do a heat loss calculation because our walls are the equivalent of R5

Thanks

[second opinion]

We would need more info, where do you live, outside temperature when measurements taken, where they where taken, unit in atic etc.

[bkish]

2200 SQ FT house
13 registers
Outside temp 45 degrees
Indoor temp 67 degrees
Supply temp 79-81 degrees at closest register, perhaps a degree or two coller at farther registers
I live in the Pacific Northwest
Outdoor HP, 20-25 ft lineset (insulated)
Variable speed furnace
Ductwork in crawl space and insulated
Crawlspace Temp 53 degrees
House has 3 inch cedar walls to the outside, ceiling and floor insulated. Lots of double pane windows

Hope that helps

[second opinion]

2200 SQ FT house
13 registers
Outside temp 45 degrees
Indoor temp 67 degrees
Supply temp 79-81 degrees at closest register, perhaps a degree or two coller at farther registers
I live in the Pacific Northwest
Outdoor HP, 20-25 ft lineset (insulated)
Variable speed furnace
Ductwork in crawl space and insulated
Crawlspace Temp 53 degrees
House has 3 inch cedar walls to the outside, ceiling and floor insulated. Lots of double pane windows

Hope that helps

I would be willing to bet that your system is miswired, and if it is miswired the charge would be incorrect. At 45 degrees outside and your crawl space is 53 you probable have air leakage.

Is the furnace in the house and air is downflow to duct in crawlspace?

If yes take the bottom front panel off of the furnace and post pictures of the control board wiring.

[beenthere]

You can do a Manual J weather teh walls are R5 or R50 insulation.
Your contractor is BSing you.

[IFRZAIR]

hey i am just catching the tail end of this. being you have a variable speed air handler/furnace. do you have the model #'s of the system

[bkish]

Here is the picture. Hope it helps.

The installer came today and looked again. Said A-OK with install and operation. What he's trying to do now is lock out the first stage of the compressor and see how it does on the second stage. This seems to confirm that he feels the two stage, with the first stage being 70% of 2.5 tons of heat BTU's isn't adequate. If this is the case he will switch the 16i for a 14i and refund the difference.

Would it be better to increase the unit to say 3.5 or 4 and try to ge tthe unit to run on the first stage for maintaining the heat and the second stage to bring the heat up? Right now, as noted before, the unit often won't manitain a temp or will maintain but cannot increase the indoor temp.

IFRZAIR, the model numbers are earlier in the post.

[IFRZAIR]

sorry, didn't see second page. the model # on the furnace indicates that you have a 4 ton drive. Now on variable speed furnaces this can be set up for a few different connensors. I believe the reason why they used a 4 ton drive is due to the 100,000 btu input. Now with that being said in order to use a diffrent size condensor than a 4 ton. The dip switches has to be set for the condensor tonage. ei: set from factory system is set at 400 cfm per ton which would be 1600 cfm. however if you are using a 3ton condensor if dip switches were set correctly you should have 1200cfm. see where this is going. I would hope to think if the installing contractor was a trane dealer they would know this, but i've learned to assume nothing. I did'nt read all your responses thourohly, I did see alot of concern in the air flow. Let me know if this helps.
thanx

[geodude]

Bkish, what part of the northwest are you located? Has a MAN J load calc been done by your installer? The trane 803 thermostat has algorithims designed for the xl16i, but you should use a fossil fuel kit to allow gas for back up if your system is not keeping up. with out the external fossil fuel control you will not get back up unless the outdoor cut out temp is seen by the thermostat. I prefer the honeywell pro9000 IAQ when we install heatpump/gas furn combos. A proper load calc will give you the btus you need for heating so your system can be properly sized. Have your installer go over the dip switch settings again AND the wiring in the outdoor unit.:)

[geodude]

Is your under floor insulated? If it is and you have 53 under floor temp and 40 dergree outside, have a duct blaster test done to see what your duct leakage is. Load calc must be done to determine builing loss.

[second opinion]

Here is the picture. Hope it helps.

The installer came today and looked again. Said A-OK with install and operation. What he's trying to do now is lock out the first stage of the compressor and see how it does on the second stage. This seems to confirm that he feels the two stage, with the first stage being 70% of 2.5 tons of heat BTU's isn't adequate. If this is the case he will switch the 16i for a 14i and refund the difference.

Would it be better to increase the unit to say 3.5 or 4 and try to ge tthe unit to run on the first stage for maintaining the heat and the second stage to bring the heat up? Right now, as noted before, the unit often won't manitain a temp or will maintain but cannot increase the indoor temp.

IFRZAIR, the model numbers are earlier in the post.

There is a set of wires missing from the picture, unless he has your system really messed up. Could you take a couple more pictures of the same area, and the furnace also. There is a jumper directly above the wires along with the dip switches that we need to see.

Your dealer is telling you some poor information, if the unit while running in first stage can not keep up it will switch to second stage it does not just sit there and run on first stage unless it is heating sufficiently, or miswired. The way that it is wired is incorrect according to your picture. More pictures will tell us where the junction between the thermostat and the outdoor unit is. You should have one set of wires from Tstat to furnace and two sets from the furnace to the outdoor unit.

[second opinion]

Your equipment; 4twx6036b1000, TDY100r9v4w, 4TXC037as3hcaa.


What Thermostat do you have?

[cmajerus]

yes the wiring is not right, no condenser wires, I see he opened the install guide and has r-o jumped but he missed a few wires, unless they are made at the fossil fuel kit(assuming there is one) but with out a wire to o on the board, it is still miswired.

[bkish]

Ryan Hughes

When you quoted the reference number for our system the number for indoor coil was 4TXCC037AC

Our coil is 4TXCC037AS

Would that make any difference?

[bkish]

Thanks to everyone.

The thermostat is a TCONT802

Here are more pictures of the board.

With the heat pump locked into the secong stage the supply temp is up 5 degrees but still runs continuously. 39 degrees out.

Yes the floor is insulated but bear in mind the house is 30 years old. It is likely relatively poor. The ducts were checked for leaks.

Not sure about a fossil fuel kit, what 's that?

[second opinion]

Thanks to everyone.

The thermostat is a TCONT802

Here are more pictures of the board.

With the heat pump locked into the secong stage the supply temp is up 5 degrees but still runs continuously. 39 degrees out.

Yes the floor is insulated but bear in mind the house is 30 years old. It is likely relatively poor. The ducts were checked for leaks.

Not sure about a fossil fuel kit, what 's that?

Have your dealer READ all of the directions and wire the system and use the correct Tstat. The unit is miswired and the BK jumper is still on the board.


Mis-wired equals no way to charge unit correctly!:o

[bkish]

Second Opinion--Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure how to tell the installer that I posted on an online forum and they say the wiring is incorrect......

What thermostat is the correct one for this application? Should I have a fossil fuel kit and what is that?

How does mis-wiring effect the charge?

Thanks

[cmajerus]

Have your dealer READ all of the directions and wire the system and use the correct Tstat. The unit is miswired and the BK jumper is still on the board.


Mis-wired equals no way to charge unit correctly!:o

it looks like the bk jumper is snipped and seperated, could be wrong, hard to tell.

As far as a fossil fuel kit, it would be a control, silver sheetmetal cover(we mount ours on the return drop most times) should have a few t-stat wires going to it(just like what goes to the board) Follow the wire from the furnace, and it should lead to another control. Just tell the installer you know its not working right and you asked on a message board, and based on your pictures taken, other HVAC guys believe it to be wired wrong.

[bkish]

The BK jumper is cut and seperated on the board.

Why are my W1 and W2 interconnected? Isn't this the signal for 1st and second stage heat?

The now "Lite Port" flashes every now and again I noticed.

Is a fossil fuel kit necessary?

[cmajerus]

not sure if it is or not with that t-stat, but if there is not one, then the condenser wiring is missing and you shouldn't have any operation of the heatpump, I personally would have the condenser wiring tied into the furnace board, not sure where yours are at.

[bkish]

OK, I understand this isn't a DIY kind of place. However, will someone tell me if I'm on the right track here.

W1 is first stage heating and W2 is second stage. On my tstat the W1 is the orange wire, not hooked up to anything on the board (bad) and the W2 wire from the tstat seems hooked up to the board to the W1 slot (bad). Ergo I was never getting 2nd stage heat...........

[bkish]

In another thread I noted that it is said W1 and X2 should be tied together but they are on the tstat side. Bad?

[cmajerus]

don't try to wire this yourself, the wiring is way more complicated than you may think. Hell even your hvac guy can't do it right, these systems are easy to wire when you know how but at 1st look all you say is WTF do these wires go there for!

[bkish]

Not interested in wiring it myself. Just looking for directions to point the installer. Am I on track with the W1/2 thing? And x2?

[cmajerus]

I would have to copy down the proper wiring and email it to your installer, but his supplier should have technical data for him to get it wired properly, all he has to do is suck it up admit he doesn't know everything and ask them for help.

[second opinion]

Your dealer should have left the installers guides and all other paper work with you.

Look at the installers guide for the thermostat on page #8 figure #15.

With the TCON802/803 Trane recommends using the TAYPLUS103 dual fuel kit.

A seperate wire should be run outside for the temperature sensor.

Remove the BK jumper completely from the board and wire the unit according to page #8 figure #15, set the dip switches according installers guide for the furnace, follow all set up steps in the Tstat guide.

The 802 will not do dehumidification if that is an option you need you would switch to the 803.

Make sure they adjust the gas pressure on the furnace.

[bkish]

Second Opinion, thanks.

I did look at all the manuals. They all have different wiring scenaios. And as you might imagine our wiring is none of those.

So the tstat wiring diagram is the correct one? Not the wiring guide for the HP or the wiring guide for the VS furnace? And why the diagram on page 8, figure 15 and not page 7, figure 14? I didn't think the 16i is a scroll.

[second opinion]

Second Opinion, thanks.

I did look at all the manuals. They all have different wiring scenaios. And as you might imagine our wiring is none of those.

So the tstat wiring diagram is the correct one? Not the wiring guide for the HP or the wiring guide for the VS furnace? And why the diagram on page 8, figure 15 and not page 7, figure 14? I didn't think the 16i is a scroll.

Page #14 is for the 19i and it has two reciprocating compressors, yours is a single scroll compressor with two steps. Your second stage of the compressor is wired to the BK terminal and brings the fan speed back up to 100%.

Your dealer should follow the diagram and NOTES #1/2/3 and adjust the dip switches with the power off, and then adjust the charge according to the service facts in the envelope in the outdoor unit and the system should run fine.

Make sure he adjusts the gas pressure in both 1st and 2nd stage per furnace installers guide.

Did you follow the control wiring outside of the unit to determine if you had a dual fuel kit or where he was splicing the wires?

I would also call Trane at 903/581/3660 and file a consumer complaint and give them the history of the problems and the lack of response and knowledge of the dealer that you have been using. This will document the model and serial # of your equipment should you have a failure in the future.

No consumer should ever need to try and correct the mistakes created by the lack of knowledge of the dealer. I doubt seriously that when he quoted you a premium price for the job that he gave you a deep discount for not knowing what he should about the product he represents.

This is a prime example that gives weight to the fact that good competent dealers are forced to defend the brand that they represent because others are not held to a high quallity of standard. This dealer should never have been allowed to purchase this equipment without having propper knowledge of how the equipment should be installed and what the performance should be when complete.

Let us know the final results. Good luck:)

[bkish]

Tech came back today. Said the problem is the 802 has no timer to switch from 1st stage compressor to second stage Therefore we were always stuck in first stage. He said they have been conversing with Trane tech support.

He wired in a timer, said the wiring is all correct as is the charge (he didn't check this time out).

Now we are in first stage for ten minutes then if set point isn't reached the system will switch to second stage.

We have set the balance point (lockout) at 35 degrees.

We will see how this does over time. Now that the system is running more like it should (notice I didn't say as it should as I don't trust them) we will see if this system will keep up.

[second opinion]

Tech came back today. Said the problem is the 802 has no timer to switch from 1st stage compressor to second stage Therefore we were always stuck in first stage. He said they have been conversing with Trane tech support.

He wired in a timer, said the wiring is all correct as is the charge (he didn't check this time out).

Now we are in first stage for ten minutes then if set point isn't reached the system will switch to second stage.

We have set the balance point (lockout) at 35 degrees.

We will see how this does over time. Now that the system is running more like it should (notice I didn't say as it should as I don't trust them) we will see if this system will keep up.
If the thermostat is bad why did they not change it?

If the unit has been stuck in first stage you CAN NOT CHARGE THE SYSTEM.

Any dealer that does not carry a Tstat on his truck should not be in business.

The system does not change stages by time it is temperature.

[bkish]

He didn't say the tsat was bad, just the system didn't have a way to switch to second stage heat. His words, not mine. To some extent they are correct, the system was never going into second stage previously. He claimed the wiring is fine. Apparently there is a junction box that the tsat wires come to and are spliced into another set that goes into the air handler.

Why you would have a two stage system and not a way to switch boggles the mind. You would figure by time or temp or both. Not up to temp in a set time then go to second stage, etc. He didn't know why Honeywell and Trane developed the system this way. Here is a picture of what he wired in.

Now the system goes into first stage for 10 min, then second stage to approx 20 min, then into the gas for approx 5-10 min. Then I guess the temp is arrived at and the system shuts down for approx 10 min, then repeat as above.

I specifically asked about the charge and he said when he was here previously he forced the system inot first and second stage to check the charge.

Right now we have the balance point at 35.

I'm in a bad place about all of this right now. The installer has zero credibility and Trane is little better now that they laid the problem directly into Tranes court today. Made it sound like they didn' thave this 2 stage then fully thought out. So what if I call Trane? Will they listen? WIll they back the installer or even call the installer? Will they send someone else to check all of this guys work? And what if it's wrong? Really I want independant verification the system is the correct system and is running correctly. I still don't have that piece of mind.

[geodude]

I install alot of xl16i/gas furn combo's. You need the tcont803 with the fossil fuel kit. It is what trane recommends. The tcont803 is set up for the xl16i, What I have found that works well, is the honeywell pro9000 IAQ stat with outdoor sensor for this type of install. Hands down works excellent. With the 9000 you do not need the external fossil fuel kit.

[bkish]

I specifically asked the owner and tech about a fossil fuel kit and they both said it isn't required.

My understanding is the only difference between the 802 and 803 is humidity control.

[cmajerus]

where did they tie the HP wiring into then? I only see one stat wire run to the furnace. Never seen wireless HP's.

[geodude]

THe 803 has staging timed differently then the 802. the 803 has algorithms set up for the 16i. While both stats will work with out a fossil fuel control, as you have discovered you will not be allowed aux heat untill the cut out temp(outside) for the heat pump is reached. The stats will allow staging of compressor and aux heat together IF you are using an electric furnace. NOT with fossil fuel back up. this is because of where the indoor coil is installed on the system. If your system won't keep up or you want to have some back up heat if the system is taking too long to heat your home, you HAVE to have the external fossil fuel kit OR the pro9000 IAQ stat. The 9000 will allow back up regardless of outdoor temp if the time set in the set up has been reached 30,45,60,90 minutes. I have not read all the posts so I'm sorry if some of that was redundant. It is my humble opinion that your installer has never installed one of these before.

[bkish]

Geodude, that implies that you can run the HP and propane furnace at the same time. I thought that is a no no.

[geodude]

Geodude, that implies that you can run the HP and propane furnace at the same time. I thought that is a no no.

read my post again, electric back up ( heat strips)will be allowed WITH the heat pump. Fossil fuel(propane or any other fuel) IS allowed by the 9000. The 9000 will shut down the heat pump, satisfy the heating demand THEN on the NEXT call for heat it will bring on the heat pump first until the time has elapsed ( 30,45,60,90 minutes)that was set up in the installer set up for allowing the furnace to come back on. If you choose fossil fuel as back up the furnace will never be on at the same time as the heat pump.:)

[second opinion]

He didn't say the tsat was bad, just the system didn't have a way to switch to second stage heat. His words, not mine. To some extent they are correct, the system was never going into second stage previously. He claimed the wiring is fine. Apparently there is a junction box that the tsat wires come to and are spliced into another set that goes into the air handler.

Why you would have a two stage system and not a way to switch boggles the mind. You would figure by time or temp or both. Not up to temp in a set time then go to second stage, etc. He didn't know why Honeywell and Trane developed the system this way. Here is a picture of what he wired in.

Now the system goes into first stage for 10 min, then second stage to approx 20 min, then into the gas for approx 5-10 min. Then I guess the temp is arrived at and the system shuts down for approx 10 min, then repeat as above.

I specifically asked about the charge and he said when he was here previously he forced the system inot first and second stage to check the charge.

Right now we have the balance point at 35.

I'm in a bad place about all of this right now. The installer has zero credibility and Trane is little better now that they laid the problem directly into Tranes court today. Made it sound like they didn' thave this 2 stage then fully thought out. So what if I call Trane? Will they listen? WIll they back the installer or even call the installer? Will they send someone else to check all of this guys work? And what if it's wrong? Really I want independant verification the system is the correct system and is running correctly. I still don't have that piece of mind.

I will try and help you one more time. YOUR UNIT IS MIS_WIRED !!!!!!

Your TCON 802 stat is two stage

The last picture that you posted shows a yellow wire on Y FIRST STAGE to the line side of the timer the black wire on the load side is feeding BK SECOND STAGE.

[cmajerus]

What city,state are you in? Maybe we can find someone to fix this for you.

[second opinion]

What city,state are you in? Maybe we can find someone to fix this for you.

Did you look at the last picture that he posted?:rolleyes:

[geodude]

If your installer can't wire this right, he will never make it when attempting to wire a fossil fuel kit , let alone a 9000 IAQ stat with interface. Find another TRANE dealer that can help you if you get nowhere with these guys. Trane has a cutomer satisfaction program, I think I saw the number on a earlier post. USE IT:)

[cmajerus]

Did you look at the last picture that he posted?:rolleyes:

yes that's why I would not let them keep trying, they will eventually break something.

[second opinion]

The sad part is that the OP has the paper work for the equipment, we tell him for weeks that the system is miswired and he can read, yet he lets the dealer tell him that Trane had a bad design for a Tstat because it wont change stages.

#0170 states 3 heat 2 cool heat pump with aux heat.

[geodude]

It boils down to lack of training. Unfortunatly it runs rampant in our line of work.:(

[second opinion]

It boils down to lack of training. Unfortunatly it runs rampant in our line of work.:(

Hey your one state away??????:D

[geodude]

Hey your one state away??????:D

Which state are you ?:)

[second opinion]

Which state are you ?:)

Virginia

[bkish]

Thanks for all your feedback.

Second Opinion--I appreciate that the unit is miswired. I tried to point that out several times. I have tried to point out what I thought were errors but was rebuffed by them today. What else can I do? I won't re-wire it myself.

I have composed a letter to Trane outlining this sad state of affairs. I am hesitant to get another Trane dealer involved because this isn't a warranty issue and I will have to pay to have someone else clean up the mistakes. Maybe it's worth it.

I am in Silverdale, Washington.

[geodude]

Man I'm a loooooooooooooooooooong way from virginny, I'm from Oerguuun.:D

[geodude]

I should check first but how close are you to Squim, WA ? I know an excellent company up there.:)

[geodude]

Call TRANE customer support. They WILL call the dealer if you make an issue. I have been called to fix another companys mistake after they refused to respond to trane, They are no longer a trane dealer:D

[second opinion]

Call TRANE customer support. They WILL call the dealer if you make an issue. I have been called to fix another companys mistake after they refused to respond to trane, They are no longer a trane dealer:D

I posted the direct phone number to TRANE earlier. Call them it will be faster than a letter. If the dealer does not respond, another dealer will be brought into remedy the issue.

Do you know where he purchased the TRANE equipment?

[bkish]

'Bout 45 min to Sequim

[bkish]

Don't know where he got the equipment. He is a Trane dealer.

[geodude]

I hope I don't get spanked;) But I know that airflo heating in squim is probably the best Trane dealer in the greater area. Look 'em up;)

[geodude]

Gensco is the trane distributer for washington state.

[IFRZAIR]

Try to find your local Trane distributor, explain what is happening, tell them to get ahold of tech support, demand tech support come out with original installer or with one they reccomend. This is one of many reasons they have tech support, and in addition, once tech support acknowledges this improper installation, if you do have continuing problems warranty won't be any problem. Once tech support is contacted there most likely be any charge for repairs.

[second opinion]

Don't know where he got the equipment. He is a Trane dealer.

What is your zip code?

[IFRZAIR]

oops forgot a word. Won't be any charge

[bkish]

98383

[geodude]

Gensco phone number in bremerton 18663378887

[second opinion]

98383

Gensco Inc
Spokane, WA
Bob Leonetti
509-534-2043

Gensco Inc
Tacoma, WA
David Norman
253-922-3003

One of these is your FSR depending on the closest location to you. Call first thing on Monday morning.

[bkish]

I tried Trane, they are closed for the weekend.

I called Airflo and they want to look into it.

[bkish]

And to top it all off we just got our electricity bill. Our highest ever It's over $100 more than last years bill with a 15 year old system.

BTW they said Trane tech told them to put in that timer.

[geodude]

Call Dave first, he will want to help!:)

[cmajerus]

And to top it all off we just got our electricity bill. Our highest ever It's over $100 more than last years bill with a 15 year old system.

BTW they said Trane tech told them to put in that timer.
I'm guessing if they saw the job they would change their mind on the timer, the field service tech from Gensco should be able to solve this with ease.

[bkish]

At this point I still think we have two issues.

The first is the system isn't hooked up right.

The second is that I am convinced the system is far too small for our application. Time will tell after we get the wiring sorted out. Airflo is going to come and check the wiring and do a Manual J.

Eventually we will need to get the Field Service Rep/Gensco involved as I'm sure the system will have to be replaced and I'm not paying for it.

[geodude]

At this point I still think we have two issues.

The first is the system isn't hooked up right.

The second is that I am convinced the system is far too small for our application. Time will tell after we get the wiring sorted out. Airflo is going to come and check the wiring and do a Manual J.

Eventually we will need to get the Field Service Rep/Gensco involved as I'm sure the system will have to be replaced and I'm not paying for it.

A man J will tell. The owner of airflo trains his installers and tech probably more then any company I know.

[second opinion]

At this point I still think we have two issues.

The first is the system isn't hooked up right.

The second is that I am convinced the system is far too small for our application. Time will tell after we get the wiring sorted out. Airflo is going to come and check the wiring and do a Manual J.

Eventually we will need to get the Field Service Rep/Gensco involved as I'm sure the system will have to be replaced and I'm not paying for it.

Have "AIRFLOW" take pictures before any changes and call both Gensco and the Trane # to file your formal complaint.

[bkish]

Thanks second opinion. I have a lot of pictures already and I will have them take more. I will call Gensco also to get them on board.

Geodude do you have a real name, not a handle so these guys can know who got them involved in this mess--err I mean recommeded their fine service:)

[jrbenny]

I hope I don't get spanked;) But I know that airflo heating in squim is probably the best Trane dealer in the greater area. Look 'em up;)
Heck, I live in Kentucky, and I can tell you that's one heck of a company. I've been in several of Mark's classes. ;)

[geodude]

Yeah, Mark pulled my head out of my stinky 5 years ago at lunch one day. we were comparing geothermal stories and in one hour he changed my whole business!! And of course I go to his classes every year now!:D

[geodude]

Thanks second opinion. I have a lot of pictures already and I will have them take more. I will call Gensco also to get them on board.

Geodude do you have a real name, not a handle so these guys can know who got them involved in this mess--err I mean recommeded their fine service:)

Sorry, thats classified. Can't tell ya or I'd have ta kill ya. :p:pOk just kidding, its in my bios on my website. Just tell Mark that the waterfurnace guy in oregon sent you.:D

[bkish]

OK, here's the follow up.

Called the FSR. He said it is standard practice to put on these timers because the 802 tsat and 16i will not turn on the second stage until there is a 2 degree drop in temp and more heat is called for :mad: So, since the HP would run 24/7 and keep up (barely), no second stage. Who responsible for that design? Why would you EVER expect a 2 degree drop under normal circumstances? Someone leaves a door open?

Secondly, the FSR seemed surprised a heat calc wasn't done and seemed surprised the installer won't do one. Especially since it could tell us whether the system is the correct size. How else can you do it, trial and error? He also disagreed with the installer that the balance point should be 45 degrees or higher.

He is getting touch with the installer to get records. He seemed OK with getting Air Flo involved. However, at this point, he will not back the installer (or us) if the equipment was installed correctly but it isn't the correct equipment. I have to deal with the installer at that point.

[cmajerus]

Well I hope you have better luck with Air flo, and that when they hook up the system properly, it is large enough to keep you warm.

[geodude]

I install a lot of dual fuel systems including the xl16i and the xv 95 You NEED to install the fossil fuel kit or a pro9000 stat. I choose to install the pro9000 for its ability to stage the furnace on a timer if need be, and its simpler to wire up on retros.
cmajerus What the heck kinda rig is that in your avatar? it looks mean!!:)

[cmajerus]

I install a lot of dual fuel systems including the xl16i and the xv 95 You NEED to install the fossil fuel kit or a pro9000 stat. I choose to install the pro9000 for its ability to stage the furnace on a timer if need be, and its simpler to wire up on retros.
cmajerus What the heck kinda rig is that in your avatar? it looks mean!!:)

That is a 1987 Crown Vic cop car, converted to a demolition derby car:D
Not as mean as I had hoped I ende up getting 2nd place:(

[geodude]

That is a 1987 Crown Vic cop car, converted to a demolition derby car:D
Not as mean as I had hoped I ende up getting 2nd place:(

Sounds like it was mean enough!!:D:D YEE HAAAAW!!

[cmajerus]

Don't mean to jack the thread, but here's what it ended up looking like:D

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/27mopar/DSCF0002-1-1.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/27mopar/1-1.jpg

[geodude]

My nine year old says WICKED!!! He loves the demolition derby!!

[cmajerus]

It's my drug of choice! I spend most of my spare time building these things.

If your son wants to see some derby stuff get him on wecrash just google it the message board has some cool pics all the time. it is down for some reason today, but keep the link he'll love it.

[second opinion]

OK, here's the follow up.

Called the FSR. He said it is standard practice to put on these timers because the 802 tsat and 16i will not turn on the second stage until there is a 2 degree drop in temp and more heat is called for :mad: So, since the HP would run 24/7 and keep up (barely), no second stage. Who responsible for that design? Why would you EVER expect a 2 degree drop under normal circumstances? Someone leaves a door open?

Secondly, the FSR seemed surprised a heat calc wasn't done and seemed surprised the installer won't do one. Especially since it could tell us whether the system is the correct size. How else can you do it, trial and error? He also disagreed with the installer that the balance point should be 45 degrees or higher.

He is getting touch with the installer to get records. He seemed OK with getting Air Flo involved. However, at this point, he will not back the installer (or us) if the equipment was installed correctly but it isn't the correct equipment. I have to deal with the installer at that point.

Your FSR is giving you some wrong information on the Tstat.

All "SMART" Tstats are designed with a PI algorithm in them that constantly monitors the temperature in the space and will call for another stage of heating or cooling if needed to maintain a 0 degree droop.

[geodude]

perhaps I could use some educating here as well,:) It was my understanding that when a tcont802 or 803 is used as a fossil fuel control by selecting the fossil fuel as back up heat, the stat will not allow back up heat, in this case stage 3 unless the outdoor cutout temp was seen by the stat. In that case the heat pump would be turned off and the gas used continuosly untill the outdoor temp climbed above the cut out temp. On 0210 in the setup it recomends the external fossil fuel control. For staging the stat with the furnace, the tcont803 should be set up for a 3heat 2 cool setting when used with the xl16i. But the aux heat will not come on untill the outdoor temp is seen right?:) Which is why I have used the 9000 IAQ stat for this type of installation.:)

[second opinion]

perhaps I could use some educating here as well,:) It was my understanding that when a tcont802 or 803 is used as a fossil fuel control by selecting the fossil fuel as back up heat, the stat will not allow back up heat, in this case stage 3 unless the outdoor cutout temp was seen by the stat. In that case the heat pump would be turned off and the gas used continuosly untill the outdoor temp climbed above the cut out temp. On 0210 in the setup it recomends the external fossil fuel control. For staging the stat with the furnace, the tcont803 should be set up for a 3heat 2 cool setting when used with the xl16i. But the aux heat will not come on untill the outdoor temp is seen right?:) Which is why I have used the 9000 IAQ stat for this type of installation.:)

You are correct. If you use the TAYPLUS103 and BAYSTAT 250 with the 802/803 you can run it in either restricted or unrestricted and that is why it is recomended in 0210.


The IAQ can be set up to give you a 2 degree droop and bring on aux. to bring the heat up quickly durring lock out. Which could be seen as an advantage but IMHO if the temperature drops 2 degrees you have other issues to deal with like door propped open or window etc.

There are other parameters for the 802/803 and Vision Pro that I will cover in a new post.

[geodude]

You are correct. If you use the TAYPLUS103 and BAYSTAT 250 with the 802/803 you can run it in either restricted or unrestricted and that is why it is recomended in 0210.


The IAQ can be set up to give you a 2 degree droop and bring on aux. to bring the heat up quickly durring lock out. Which could be seen as an advantage but IMHO if the temperature drops 2 degrees you have other issues to deal with like door propped open or window etc.

I agree, Thanks man!:D

[Woodshed]

There are other parameters for the 802/803 and Vision Pro that I will cover in a new post.

Second Opinion - where is the new post?

[second opinion]

Second Opinion - where is the new post?

Stuck in the keyboard.:eek:

Soon

[geodude]

Hey bkish, how is it going with your system? anybody else look at it yet? has Airflo?:D

[bkish]

Here's an update.

Never heard back fro FSR but he has contacted the installer.

Installer is still balking about taking care of this. Says it's the house. Still won't do a heat calc (though now he changed his mind and says it is possible) He says "been doing this 22 years and found my heat calcs were within a 1/2 ton of what I figured should go in so I stopped doing them" Here's the Type A side of me; A being a half ton off on a 3 ton system is 18%, to me that's a big deal. Especially since his 3 ton system, as we found out, puts out less than 2.5 tons at 47 degrees. Sigh....

Installer says FSR is 2 months out from taking care of this (I need to call the FSR and verify). That is unacceptable. And, if second opinion is right that the tsat can be configured to work without this timer, can I trust the FSR?

AIRFLO has been contacted. They are scheduled to come out Feb 6th (soonest they could get here) However, I'm starting to balk. I want a heat calc done to see where we are and to look at the install The service call from AIRFLO is likely to be well over $500 for the time to do all that. Not that I don't have the money but it has my nose a bit out of joint that I'm having to pay for my installers incompetence.


Anyway, any sage works of advice?

[geodude]

I know this sounds like an ad, But in your area air flo is the BEST company in that half of washinton. I have been to a lot of marks classes, he is by far one of the top heating guys IN THE NATION!! their opinion is worth 500.00 It really sounds as if you have a under sized system. check out my email address, send me a message through my links and I will do a quick MAN J for you.

[bkish]

Geodude

Tried to wite you at your business info e-mail. Came back as mailbox is full. I added my e-mail to my profile.

[geodude]

I will contact you mon. morning. MY general box get like a bazillion hits a day.:)

[second opinion]

Here's an update.

Never heard back fro FSR but he has contacted the installer.

Installer is still balking about taking care of this. Says it's the house. Still won't do a heat calc (though now he changed his mind and says it is possible) He says "been doing this 22 years and found my heat calcs were within a 1/2 ton of what I figured should go in so I stopped doing them" Here's the Type A side of me; A being a half ton off on a 3 ton system is 18%, to me that's a big deal. Especially since his 3 ton system, as we found out, puts out less than 2.5 tons at 47 degrees. Sigh....

Installer says FSR is 2 months out from taking care of this (I need to call the FSR and verify). That is unacceptable. And, if second opinion is right that the tsat can be configured to work without this timer, can I trust the FSR?

AIRFLO has been contacted. They are scheduled to come out Feb 6th (soonest they could get here) However, I'm starting to balk. I want a heat calc done to see where we are and to look at the install The service call from AIRFLO is likely to be well over $500 for the time to do all that. Not that I don't have the money but it has my nose a bit out of joint that I'm having to pay for my installers incompetence.


Anyway, any sage works of advice?

I would not have put it in print if it was not correct.

[pstu]

I am just a homeowner far away but I urge you to pay the few hundred (trying to honor the pricing rules) if that's what it takes to get someone who is *good* at this. I know you paid far more for the original install (as I did for my Trane equipment), but believe me you want the guy with the skills.

Based on my prior experience you might usually have to pay at least half that much to get a professional load calc (Manual J) done. Not doing the load calc is one source of your problems, so you probably *will* be getting value for your money.

I am sorry to hear you have such problems, and am hoping you will get them resolved soon.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[bkish]

Another Update

Geodude has been very helpful in getting more clarity on the situation. Though his Man J is by no means definitive it is enlightening.

We rec'd a call from the installer yesterday. Now that he has chaged his mind that he can actually do a heat calc he has decided he will actually come and do one. We're not sure what prompted the change of heart but it's appreciated.

As I told Geodude, I think there are three issues.

He was caught off guard that the system is only good for 29,600 BTU's at 47 degrees (not doing you homework)

He underestimated the needs of our house (not doing your homework)

Lastly, while he changed like for like (3 ton for 3 ton) and we now have propane as backup he might not have accounted for the lack of heat strips to augment the HP as the temps dropped.

More good news soon hopefully.

[bkish]

Another update.

On the eve of getting independent verification of the heat loss and our system, Airflo has backed out via a message today. To say I'm frustrated is an understatement.

Another call to the installer has done nothing to quell my fears that we're stuck with what we've got. He isn't finished with the heat calc and again is crying that it's our house to blame. This in spite of the fact our previous system, when it worked, heated our house to 25 degrees.

No follow up by the FSR either.

So, no go with another installer for a look see, nothing from the FSR and looking like we may be out of luck.

[second opinion]

Another update.

On the eve of getting independent verification of the heat loss and our system, Airflo has backed out via a message today. To say I'm frustrated is an understatement.

Another call to the installer has done nothing to quell my fears that we're stuck with what we've got. He isn't finished with the heat calc and again is crying that it's our house to blame. This in spite of the fact our previous system, when it worked, heated our house to 25 degrees.

No follow up by the FSR either.

So, no go with another installer for a look see, nothing from the FSR and looking like we may be out of luck.

Call Trane 903-581-3660 and file you consumer complaint and demand it be taken care of. You have more clout than you think.

[second opinion]

BK you have droped off of radar again.
Any updates?

Geodude I have an idea, I will fly out to OR. and you and I can drive up and resolve this one. I have only six states left to visit and this will be two of them.

[geodude]

BK you have droped off of radar again.
Any updates?

Geodude I have an idea, I will fly out to OR. and you and I can drive up and resolve this one. I have only six states left to visit and this will be two of them.

lets go!

[geodude]

lets go!

This guy is really getting the run around. I did a load calc based on a drawing from him. The heat loss was 53000 btus and the cooling load was 43000 or so including latent. The indoor design temp was 70. If I remember, the system was a xl16i three ton with a tdy100 furn and a 4txc037 coil. good for about 30000 or so. Hmmm Nobody up there seems to want to help him.:confused:

[jrbenny]

Have tools. Will travel. :)

[second opinion]

Have tools. Will travel. :)

I was going to use geodudes.

[geodude]

I was going to use geodudes.

Um, I can't find 'em:eek:

[second opinion]

Um, I can't find 'em:eek:

I did not want to lease the plane to get there.
Email him and see what the statis is.

I know Tyler has seen the thread.

[geodude]

I did not want to lease the plane to get there.
Email him and see what the statis is.

I know Tyler has seen the thread.

Gotcha.

[bkish]

Here's a bit of what I sent Geodude. Sorry it's long.

The installer still doesn't have the heat calc. He borrowed someones program, but has had trouble using it--FOR THE PAST TEN DAYS! What makes me think he will get it right? We had an arguement about this whole thing and I've taken a few days off from thinking about it because it's frustrating me.

I haven't called Trane for a couple of reasons. One, I think he's trying and as long as he's trying I'm someone who gives people the benefit of the doubt. Dumb, I know.

Two, it's been terribly discouraging that Genensco doens't seem interested, another installer isn't interested so what makes me think Trane is interested? To tell the truth, everyone (Air Flo and Genesco) seem nore interested in what the installer has to say than what I have to say. For instance, Genesco will contact the installer, but never contact me.

Air Flo didn't come because they talked to the installer who gave them false information and felt it was unnesessary to come here. When I corrected the information, Air Flo seemed shocked they were misled. Did they call me to ask me? No. They made a decision based SOLEY on what the installer said. Has Genensco called me back to ask my side? No.

I haven't called Trane but can you see that I might be feeling like my concerns aren't important to Trane?

After our arguement Wednesday, I really feel the installer and had very different ideas of what our system was supposed to do. It's not that it doesn't work. It doesn't work the way we expected. I expected a heat pump that would do 90% of our heating and a propane furnace for the balance and power outages (wired to our generator). He felt he was building a system that had the HP for more fair weather and the propane for winter. So, not that the system was bad but a difference of expectations accorfing to him. As I sit here, 45 degrees out and indoor temps of 66 the HP doesn't stop running. He says that they way he designed it. I say it's bunk but again, Genesco isn't interested and I can't get independent verification the system is even running correctly or what system we should have.

The installer has Genesco and had Air Flo convinced it is our house to blame from my conversation with Air Flo. Granted, we have an "energy pig" as the installer calls it. But our house is the same damn house it's been for thirty years and what no one seems to appreciate is the old HP heated the house to 70 degrees even in very cold weather (low 30's) without running conastantly (until it broke).

So, OK, before Second Opinion rightly beats me up about it, I will can Trane on Monday. I'm not at all hopeful it will do a bit of good but I will call.

Thanks again to all.

[geodude]

Call them, the fact remains that as a comfort specialist Trane expects you to do a man j on the home BEFORE the job is installed. I can tell you, I have made mistakes in the past, anybody on here who hasn't screwed up a job at least once, is full of S**T! I would pull the whole thing and start over to keep my reputation intact, at no cost to the customer. And I have done just that. If the installing company did not explain to you how the heatpump would work , you can only assume that he was guessing. Had he done a load calc to begin with, none of us would be chatting right now. Let Trane know everything, you have more clout then you realize.

[Mr Bill]

The installer still doesn't have the heat calc. He borrowed someones program, but has had trouble using it--FOR THE PAST TEN DAYS! What makes me think he will get it right?


Maybe he is still looking for "log cabin" in the program. :D

[geodude]

Maybe he is still looking for "log cabin" in the program. :D

Not to mention the default temps are some where mid west or eastern us.

[bkish]

Yeah, I have a piece of paper that says he did the heat calc up front (he checked the box). Problem is I'm an idiot and signed it too without reading it. Guess he can then say he did it, when he really didn't because I signed off.

I agree a heat calc up front would have saved us from this. Funny thing is, I asked for estimates from 4 companies in the area. NONE offered to do a heat calc. They were all the same. "How big is the house?' 'How many vents?'

Sometimes I get the feeling he'll do the right thing. Sometimes I don't. Most of the time I don' think he knows what to do. He admits to being caught off guard by the low BTU of the system he put together. He also admits to under estimating the challenge of designing a system for our house. The trouble is, after all these admissions, we're still in the same place.

Nice one Mr Bill! But the Log Cabin is in the cup board waiting for pancakes.

[geodude]

The fact remains that the contractor is looked upon as the professional, and the fact remains that he did not know the capacity of his proposed system, :eek::confused:and he missled you by saying he did a load calc when it appears that he did not, until he came back at your insistance, and then he did not know how to do one and now has to borrow someone elses program to TRY to do one!:eek:
Um how is that your fault?
Your home is a single story rambler, it don't get much easier to to load calcs on. I hope this works out for you!

[second opinion]

Yeah, I have a piece of paper that says he did the heat calc up front (he checked the box). Problem is I'm an idiot and signed it too without reading it. Guess he can then say he did it, when he really didn't because I signed off.

I agree a heat calc up front would have saved us from this. Funny thing is, I asked for estimates from 4 companies in the area. NONE offered to do a heat calc. They were all the same. "How big is the house?' 'How many vents?'

Sometimes I get the feeling he'll do the right thing. Sometimes I don't. Most of the time I don' think he knows what to do. He admits to being caught off guard by the low BTU of the system he put together. He also admits to under estimating the challenge of designing a system for our house. The trouble is, after all these admissions, we're still in the same place.

Nice one Mr Bill! But the Log Cabin is in the cup board waiting for pancakes.

I am not going to beat up on you, I only want to help resolve the issue because it is not fair to you or any other customer of ANY BRAND to be put in this situation.

To have a purported professional give you such bogus information is a slap in the face to all of the professionals that take the time to do it right.

The blame is not totally on your dealer, someone had to approve him as a Trane dealer and someone had to approve him as a "COMFORT SPECIALIST"
and they need to ponny up and get it right.

The FSR for Gensco to tell you that " the Trane thermostat TCON 802/803 was not designed to function as a two stage Tstat and that you should install a timer between Y1 and Y2 to get your system to work.":eek: Now that is embarrasssing.:o This is the person that would give your dealer his training on the equipment.:eek:

Post your Email in your profile

[geodude]

He posted it awhile back on this thread, look back a ways and you should see it:)

[geodude]

hey second! ya find it?

[second opinion]

hey second! ya find it?

I got it thank you.

I can not get instant E-mail alerts for some reason so it takes me a to respond.:(

[jasond1011]

perhaps the checkvalve in the coil is restricted, a restriction will cause cool small line when big line is feeding in hot as all restrictions do. yes about a hundred degrees to 130 degrees is typical what i see on hot gas temp verses ambient. if it was low on gas it should be starving the valve in the condensor and frosting up right away. but you say the little line out of the evap is cold and the big line going into the evap coil is blazing hot. that to me is a restriction in the metering device in the evap which is in effect the checkvalve where the ref bypasses the txv in heat.

[geodude]

I got it thank you.

I can not get instant E-mail alerts for some reason so it takes me a to respond.:(

I am just a painfully slow typer.:)

[bkish]

The theory of the lineset problem was one they addressed again on the second visit the smaller line was still cold and the coil wasn't uniformly hot. That's when they purged the system and replaced all the dryers and maybe filters (or is it filter dryers?) In any event, the same conditions prevailed.

"Blazing hot" is relative. Before the expansion valve replacement I could hold the line set in my hand all day long. After I can still hold it, but it's hot. 135 degrees according to the tech. I was told in an earlier post that temp "was in the ballpark"

[bkish]

OK, made the call to Trane. They took the info and gave me a ticket number.
Apparently they get Gensco more involved and another entity involved.

I generally feel good about the call, especially in light of the fact the installer and I seem to be entrenched in our positions and unable to communicate and effect a solution. And, quite honestly, I feel like I cannot trust him to "make it right" as he said he would. He doesn't seem to have a grasp on the equipment he sells and doesn't seem to know how to do a heat calc.

She did mention there are limits to what they can do since my installer is an independent dealer. I did explain that they are a Trane certified Comfort Specialist and should do a heat calc, know the system they are installing (29k btus and know how a 2 stage heat pump works) and not say the system is fine, insulate your house.

I'm just surprised it has come to this. As he said to me "some customers will never be happy" He guaranteed that in this case.

[Mrfixit39]

no DIYERS ALLOWED!

[second opinion]

no DIYERS ALLOWED!

And this response is to what?:confused:

[geodude]

no DIYERS ALLOWED!

Goto the beginning and read the OP my friend, This is not a DIY poster.;)

[second opinion]

Goto the beginning and read the OP my friend, This is not a DIY poster.;)

A DIY with 4300 hits now thats slooooow moderating.:D

[bkish]

Got the heat calc today. Got many in fact.

Heat loss at:
45 degrees is 33459
40 degrees is 40735
35 degrees is 48009
30 degrees is 55281

He also did a calc with us insulating the walls to R-11 which is the best we can do. Loss then is 41,598 at 25 degrees.

I think the calcs are generally close. At 45 degrees the HP system will almost keep up.


Haven't called the installer back yet. Trane hasn't called me back either.

[second opinion]

They are still there.

[beachtech]

:D
OK, made the call to Trane. They took the info and gave me a ticket number.
Apparently they get Gensco more involved and another entity involved.

I generally feel good about the call, especially in light of the fact the installer and I seem to be entrenched in our positions and unable to communicate and effect a solution. And, quite honestly, I feel like I cannot trust him to "make it right" as he said he would. He doesn't seem to have a grasp on the equipment he sells and doesn't seem to know how to do a heat calc.

She did mention there are limits to what they can do since my installer is an independent dealer. I did explain that they are a Trane certified Comfort Specialist and should do a heat calc, know the system they are installing (29k btus and know how a 2 stage heat pump works) and not say the system is fine, insulate your house.

I'm just surprised it has come to this. As he said to me "some customers will never be happy" He guaranteed that in this case.

WOW :eek: thats a terrible position to take as a service technician, or manager!! all customers are happy when i leave thier house :D

[geodude]

Got the heat calc today. Got many in fact.

Heat loss at:
45 degrees is 33459
40 degrees is 40735
35 degrees is 48009
30 degrees is 55281

He also did a calc with us insulating the walls to R-11 which is the best we can do. Loss then is 41,598 at 25 degrees.

I think the calcs are generally close. At 45 degrees the HP system will almost keep up.


Haven't called the installer back yet. Trane hasn't called me back either.


The loss you should be paying attention to is the loss at winter design temps. for your region.
55,000 btu's is a long way from the capability of a three ton 16i. It won't even hit 32,000 btus at 45 degrees. Its a great heat pump, but it must be sized and applied correctly.

[bkish]

OK, to confound matters more, at the suggestion of the installer we had an energy audit done.

Where the installer assumed our vaulted ceiling (1000 square feet) was not insulated the audit found there is 4 inch fiberglass insulation in that part of the ceiling. That's a big change. The estimated that part of the house alone was responsible for 14,784 worth of btu loss without insulation. That means our overall loss will be less, a lot less. Shouldn't be much trouble to change it in the program hopefully. Looking at the values for the other parts of the roof, I would guess the heat loss may go down by some 8-9000 btus.

That may put us squarely into 4ton HP territory down to 30-35 degrees.

[beachtech]

thats great news!!

[bkish]

New heat calcs as follows

20 degrees 57937
30 degrees 46xxx
35 degrees 39832
40 degrees 33796
45 degrees 27xxx

He said Tranes data on the set up we have is good for approx 33K BTU in contrast to the ARI data.

He now says he will do whatever we want with regard to changing the system. He will charge us only for the difference in equipment cost.

Thoughts?

[cmajerus]

what did you get for a cooling load?

[geodude]

If 35 is the temp that you want the gas on I would recommend the four ton 16i or the 19i four ton.

[bkish]

He didn't do a cooling load. However, Geodude did that as part of the quick calc he did. He had recommended not going above that for our sizing. That is around 42K btu. I understand the reasoning behind that.

However,we almost never use the unit to cool the house. RARELY we come home and the house is in the seventies and we take the edge off with the HP. I'd say we do that three, four times a year. We would let it run for 15-20 mins and then shut it off. By then the house is a bit cooler and the outdoor temps are falling. If we never did that again we wouldn't care. It's not a necessity, just something we did.

I agree with Geodude on the sizing and use of a 2 stage HP. I like the flexibility of the 2 stage HP

Any thoughts second opinion?

[beenthere]

If your main concern is heating.

Then you might want to get bids on other brands, and check their heating specs

Not brand bashing.

[second opinion]

He didn't do a cooling load. However, Geodude did that as part of the quick calc he did. He had recommended not going above that for our sizing. That is around 42K btu. I understand the reasoning behind that.

However,we almost never use the unit to cool the house. RARELY we come home and the house is in the seventies and we take the edge off with the HP. I'd say we do that three, four times a year. We would let it run for 15-20 mins and then shut it off. By then the house is a bit cooler and the outdoor temps are falling. If we never did that again we wouldn't care. It's not a necessity, just something we did.

I agree with Geodude on the sizing and use of a 2 stage HP. I like the flexibility of the 2 stage HP

Any thoughts second opinion?


4 ton 16I with the 803 Tstat TAYPLUS 103 with BAYSTAT 250 or pay for vision Pro IAQ and dealer provides field data sheet when instalation is finished.

With that said;You need to look at the ductwork and make sure that it can handle 1600 cfm.

Did you pay for the energy audit? Dollar amount should be compensated, the dealer should have performed load calculation.

[geodude]

If your main concern is heating.

Then you might want to get bids on other brands, and check their heating specs

Not brand bashing.

A manual d should be performed to ensure the duct system will be able to handle the air flow without excess noise. Also commercial grilles and registers should be considered. Shomaker 600 for returns and afp or 375 for floor registers depending on ceiling height. These have a low friction penalty and low operating noise level with high air flow as compared to the normal cheap residential grilles and registers.

[bkish]

The installer said no way on a 5 ton system. The ducting can't handle it. He believes a 4 ton unit won't be a problem.

Right now we have a 60K/100K btu propane furnace and 4 ton blower. I would imagine (and I may be wrong) that the 4 ton HP system shouldn't be any noisier than that. Correct?

Geodude, couldn't find any references to the return/resigsters you site.

Second Opinion, I have three concerns about proceeding and they revolve around things you've said. One, he hasn't mentioned going to another tsat. If I remember correctly, the 803 or Vision Pro can better stage the 2 stage HP and dual fuel applications. Two, the dealer still doesn't recommend the dual fuel kit and neither does the FSR. Three, the wiring issues won't necessarily be addressed.

The energy audit was free through the local utility.

[bkish]

Been There.

At this point I'm not sure of my options regarding other HVAC providers. The installer and I haven't talked of taking the system out. Though in some ways that's a good option.

That being said, where we live you basically have two and a half choices; Trane, American Standard (Trane) and Carrier. There is one Water Furnace dealer for the Geothermal side of things. If I had it to do over again, I would seriously consider that.

[bkish]

Been There.

At this point I'm not sure of my options regarding other HVAC providers. The installer and I haven't talked of taking the system out. Though in some ways that's a good option.

That being said, where we live you basically have two and a half choices; Trane, American Standard (Trane) and Carrier. There is one Water Furnace dealer for the Geothermal side of things. If I had it to do over again, I would seriously consider that.

[second opinion]

The installer said no way on a 5 ton system. The ducting can't handle it. He believes a 4 ton unit won't be a problem.

Right now we have a 60K/100K btu propane furnace and 4 ton blower. I would imagine (and I may be wrong) that the 4 ton HP system shouldn't be any noisier than that. Correct?

Geodude, couldn't find any references to the return/resigsters you site.

Second Opinion, I have three concerns about proceeding and they revolve around things you've said. One, he hasn't mentioned going to another tsat. If I remember correctly, the 803 or Vision Pro can better stage the 2 stage HP and dual fuel applications. Two, the dealer still doesn't recommend the dual fuel kit and neither does the FSR. Three, the wiring issues won't necessarily be addressed.

The energy audit was free through the local utility.

The 802/ 803 and the Vision Pro are identical in the way that they control a system. The 802 does not have a humidity sensor on board like the 803 and the Vision Pro TH8321U.

Trane does still recomend the TAYPLUS103 and BAYSTAT250 for duel fuel application to stage the furnace. look at page 12 of the installers guide 0210 external fossil fuel kit "recomended'' this will allow for staging of the furnace.

Under no circumstances should the unit stay mis-wired as is. If you had a competent dealer and FSR we would not have this thread.

[cmajerus]

The 802/ 803 and the Vision Pro are identical in the way that they control a system. The 802 does not have a humidity sensor on board like the 803 and the Vision Pro TH8321U.

Trane does still recomend the TAYPLUS103 and BAYSTAT250 for duel fuel application to stage the furnace. look at page 12 of the installers guide 0210 external fossil fuel kit "recomended'' this will allow for staging of the furnace.

Under no circumstances should the unit stay mis-wired as is. If you had a competent dealer and FSR we would not have this thread.
exactly. If they put in the new 4 ton without following the directions, which it doesn't sound like the FSR knows how either, you will still have a problem heating.

[bkish]

Monday I will call and ask for a field visit. Hopefully we can get some further progress or information.

Honestly though, from what I read here, I think I should just ask for a refund from the installer. If I'm going to have issues that continue past this system and into the larger system, what's the point? And, it would seem, the FSR isn't going to be a big help or better at this. I should probably give the FSR a chance with a field visit, but it may be in vain.

And the FSR doesn't recommend the dual fuel kit, I already asked them. Sigh....

[geodude]

The registers and grilles are here http://www.shoemakermfg.com/products.htm
The registers (375) are in the residential catalogue the return grille 600, is in the commercial catalogue and so is the afp register. And now I'm off to Hawaii !!! See you guys in a week!:D:D:D:D

[second opinion]

Have we come to a resolution yet?

[bkish]

Well, not a lot of news yet. The installer has offered to put a 4 ton system in but still doesn't have pricing.

We have a space issue with a soffet that needs to be removed for the physical space to allow a 4 ton system. Our contactor is coming over today.

Our contractor has also completed an estimate to insulate our outdoor walls from the current R value of about 2 to 12. We are weighing this option.

No follow up by Trane themselves.

[bkish]

I did f/u with Trane. After multiple e-mails and calls to Gensco the customer service person in Texas rec'd no reply from Gensco. None at all. Hmmmmm.

The Trane CS rep has forwarded the issue on to her boss in an effort to get some information and resolution from Gensco.

Regarding a Field Service call, she was up in the air about this. I told her I would still prefer it but if she can't get a hold of Gensco then no visit. Makes me more worried about Gensco who has not been great in this whole thing.

[bkish]

I was asked to post some pictures of the install. Well here they are. I haven't been home after the sun rises or before the sun sets for the last couple of weeks so no outside pictures yet.

And no response from Trane or the installer. Haven't had time to f/u myself.

[mark beiser]

all customers are happy when i leave thier house :D

Shower more often! :p

[beenthere]

Pics not working.

[valerioac]

most 4 ton and 5 ton blowers are the same cfm horsepower etc.

[bkish]

Here's another attempt at the pictures.

[markco]

I read your original post, but didn't have time to read all of the reply's. I don't know if it has been brought up before the pics were posted, but you might want to have the lineset worked on.

I noticed that the clamps are touching the copper. BIG problem down the line when electrolisis starts eating holes in the copper.

Have them insulated.

[Woodshed]

Here's another attempt at the pictures.


Still no pics...

[bkish]

I don't know what to say about the pictures. I see them and others seem to be seeing them while others do not.

[valerioac]

its hard to stop a trane..............lol not a bad looking install

[beachtech]

Shower more often! :p

:D LMAO :D

[energy star]

Have the vent temps gone over 80 degrees yet. What is the vent temp with just the furnace operating?

[beachtech]

are we there yet???

[bkish]

In the end we got vent temps in the high 80's/very low 90's. Not bad but not enough of it.

The vent temps on propane are much higher.

The installer hasn't called back with prices on new equipment (I've called him three times with various excuses on why it isn't done) and he isn't being helpful with recommendations on new equipment. Last time we talked and he didn't have the information he suggested shopping around for a different propane retailer to make running on propane all the time a littler cheaper.

So basically he's now suggested we get an energy audit, insulate our house more, switch to a different proapne supplier and suggested our resale will suffer becsue we have an "energy pig" if we don't do those things. He's basically suggested everything BUT how to make the system work better in our circumstance.

Basically he says, if you want 4 tons, I will put in four tons. If you want 3.5 tons I will put in 3.5 tons. He's not giving me any guidance because he still thinks his system is correct even though we tell him what we expect from the system and what we aren't getting.

In the end I have sent a very firm letter to the CEO of Gensco and the president of Trane residential. At this point I want this system out and to look into other installers (Trane included) and other alternatives because I don't trust him or Gensco. In all honesty I think unless we threaten to sue or do sue him we will not get anywhere.

[energy star]

How hot can you get the vent temp up to with just the furnace running?

[bkish]

I can't say with any certainty what the supply temps with the propane are. That hasn't been a issue so it was never checked. All I can say is it's really, really warm. Feels like a gas furnace.

The intake and supply ductwork were all checked by the installer as being OK.

[bkish]

Well, I rec'd an immediate call from Gensco today upon receipt of the letter. Wasn't home to get the call. I will call them back tomorrow.

Basically they said they wanted to get this resolved and are getting the regional "Comfort Specialist" involved.

I want to say I see a light at the end of the four month tunnel but I won't hold my breath.

[beenthere]

Cool.

Keep us updated.

[geodude]

Well, I rec'd an immediate call from Gensco today upon receipt of the letter. Wasn't home to get the call. I will call them back tomorrow.

Basically they said they wanted to get this resolved and are getting the regional "Comfort Specialist" involved.

I want to say I see a light at the end of the four month tunnel but I won't hold my breath.

Hey I'm back!
And sunburned. Keep us posted on the outcome. How were the loads they did compared to the quick one I did for you?
If your installer had done the loads before the install, all the drivel about insulation and weatherizing would have been discussed before hand and you could have had a choice to install a system sized for post weatherization or pre weatherization loss values. Sounds like you are heading the right direction though. Have a great weekend!

[second opinion]

I was beginning to think you purchased one of those small islands for a homestead.:D

[geodude]

I was beginning to think you purchased one of those small islands for a homestead.:D

Naaa, But I did fly over the volcanoe it was burping lava and burning up the last of the three houses, but one mile away from the last flow, they were pushing out lots, land was cheap, 10,000 and acre. I guess if you did a slab on grade home you could have a heated slab!

[bkish]

Now that's what I call geothermal heating! :eek:

[bkish]

Rec'd a call from the CEO of Gensco. He left a message but was apologectic and said all the right things.

I called the person who is overseeing this at Gensco. The Comfort Specialist/Regional Rep has been in touch with the installer and Gensco both. I spent about 45 min on the phone with the guy at Gensco. He was very nice and we discussed the issues, both equipment and installer. We will talk again next week after the installer does a couple things on his end and the gentleman from Gensco can take our heat calc and figure out some things on his end.

He said the 802 tsat with outdoor temp sensor is OK and no fossil fuels kit is needed, despite what the manual says.

He didn't understand the timer thing the installer put on for the stages of the HP and why the claim was made that Trane 'doesn't have these thing figured out'. That make a lot of us.

[second opinion]

Well it looks like you are making progress and that is a good thing.

You can use the 802 or 803 with the outdoor sensor for dual fuel without the TAYPLUS103 and the BAYTST250. You are limited to a 40 degree lockout of the furnace.

With the kit you have more control.

[bkish]

Well, I rec'd a call from Gensco regarding this timer thing. They are sticking by their assertion this is needed for 2 stage heat pumps becuse in certain circumstances the heating need will not be filled by the first stage and it will never switch over. Hence the timer. This was on a message left with me so I haven't been able to challenge this assertion.

Sounds like BS to me.

See, I thought I saw light at the end of the tunnel. Guess I was mistaken.

[cmajerus]

The 802 is a 2heat tstat, it should have a 3 heat so 1st stage kicks on 1st stage HP, 2nd stage kicks in 2nd stage HP, and 3rd would kick on gas heat, to make it ideal a 4 heat would utilize 2nd stage gas heat. IAQ stat would do this.

[bkish]

The more I think about it (and I've had a lot of time to do this over the last FOUR months) the more this steams me.

This is total BS this is a system that doesn't run as advertised and needs this timer. Why, under normal circumstances would the Trane system EVER switch to the second stage? Supposedly for a 2 degree drop (not normal) or a 2 degree increase in set point. So, either you have to size the system to the first stage so it can satisfy demand on that stage (and the second stage is for large temp increases) OR you get excessive run times as the need for heat increases (and the outdoor temp decreases). Considering this is a poorly thought out design I find it odd I'm seemingly the first person to have this problem. The way the two stage system is set up like this it's like having a system that is perpetually undersized (always in first stage).

Now down to brand bashing. This is totally unaccpetabe in either case. The system can't switch or needs the timer. What sort of crap is Trane trying to pass off? I paid a lot of money for a system that doesn't run as it was sold to me. That's dishonest and deceitful as best. Trane should be ashamed!

Apparently is is really hard to stop a Trane. They're designed to run and run and run and run and run and run and run and run and run and run...............

[cmajerus]

The more I think about it (and I've had a lot of time to do this over the last FOUR months) the more this steams me.

This is total BS this is a system that doesn't run as advertised and needs this timer. Why, under normal circumstances would the Trane system EVER switch to the second stage? Supposedly for a 2 degree drop (not normal) or a 2 degree increase in set point. So, either you have to size the system to the first stage so it can satisfy demand on that stage (and the second stage is for large temp increases) OR you get excessive run times as the need for heat increases (and the outdoor temp decreases). Considering this is a poorly thought out design I find it odd I'm seemingly the first person to have this problem. The way the two stage system is set up like this it's like having a system that is perpetually undersized (always in first stage).

Now down to brand bashing. This is totally unaccpetabe in either case. The system can't switch or needs the timer. What sort of crap is Trane trying to pass off? I paid a lot of money for a system that doesn't run as it was sold to me. That's dishonest and deceitful as best. Trane should be ashamed!

Apparently is is really hard to stop a Trane. They're designed to run and run and run and run and run and run and run and run and run and run...............
they will work like your asking it to, problem is in the people trying to get you there, do yourself a favor and tell them to try the IAQ Honeywell stat, it has worked for me on the exact system you have, I cannot understand the issues these "EXPERTS" are having to get you up and running correctly.

[second opinion]

The problem that I see is that you are getting som really poor information from the dealer and the distributor.

The TCON 802 and 803 and the Vision Pro and the Vision Pro IAQ and others follow a Proportional and Integral algorithm. "smart Tstats"


The design of the Tstat allows it to think on its own.

While running in first stage if it is recovering at an acceptable rate or maintaining, it has no need to go to a higher stage. There is no 2 degree differential that it looks for as in the other programable Tstats or mechanical. It measures in 1/10th of degrees to maintain set point. It looks at the Proportional error,the difference between the set point temperature and the room temperature. It looks at the Integral error, the length of time the room temperature has differed from the set-point temperature. During run time it constantly calculates both and determines what stage is needed to maintain set-point.

It does the same thing when comming out of set-back with Intelegent Recovery. It establishes a start time based on previous information gathered. If the set back temperature is 10 degrees it will start in first stage, if it is recovering and gaining temperature it will stay in first stage, if not it will switch to second stage to meet set recovery time.

If for some reason the Tstat sees two parameters of one hour away from set-point and 8 degrees from set point it will call for AUX. heat to reach set time/temp. and then revert back to first stage compressor.

While the system is running in first stage and the Tstat sees a manual change of 5 degrees it will have a one minute inhibit then stage 2 a one minute inhibit and then stage to Aux. and then stage down as it gets close to set point.

According to the information that you are getting from the dealer and distributor every 802,803,Vision Pro, and Vision Pro IAQ will not opperate a multistage system without a timer installed. They all have the identical P/I program.

[Laverd]

Hi there, i read all of your post from the beginning and im just wondering something?Im from Montreal and we are the capital of hp and the temp here goes down to -20*c or -5*f and we work our hp until 10*f or -10*c.So you should be able to heat only with your hp and use propane in case of faillure of the hp.Pro 9000 is the best t-stat in my opinion for the job check it out on Honeywell website it gives you good explanation.Wondering if you replaced your old unit and it was heating your house ok with a 3 ton and you replaced it with the same size unit then it should work the same way.I would look more in the way its wired,i would then recharge the system by weight,then you could get that part settled.Do you have an orifice as a metering device or expansion valve?But my main concern is that sizing thing that if that house was heating ok before with the same size of unit then this one should be similar.good luck

[bkish]

Second Opinion. Thanks for the informative post.

What you say makes perfect sense. I think what Gensco is trying to tell me is in line with your sentence "...recovering at an acceptable rate or maintaining, it has no need to go to a higher stage"

Their contention is that in certain circumstances (and by their admission where a system is undersized) the tstat can get in a situation where there is no proportional error because the temp is maintained and there is no integral error because the room temperature is perfectly balanced and there is no difference (or not enough) between room temp and set point. It never sees that it is losing ground and needs to ramp up and never sees it has achieved set point and needs to shut off.

To put it another way this may be the same where you reach a perfect balance point. Why would the stat switch to the second stage in that case? It seems to me without a way to switch from 1st to 2nd stage based on time I can see where at the balance point the system will run and run and run.

I'm not trying to defend bogus information, just trying tor understand and relay info given to me. And in a system that measures in 1/10 of a degree that situation above would seem impossible.

On the other hand, 1/10 of a degree seems awfully problematic. In that case, disturbed air from someone walking by the tsat could make a difference of 1/10th of a degree. The system would be off/on/off/on trying to maintain such a small interval. I can see that it would measure in that kind of increment but not determine run sequences by it. There has got to be some fudge factor to stop short cycling

That being said, that was only one of our problems with the 2 stage system. Not only would it not shut off (never quite reach set point) but it would lose temp trying to keep up and STILL wouldn't call for the second stage.

[anthonymd]

If your indoor coil is cold in the middle then it sounds like you have a blockage. If the line temp is 135 the air temp maybe at least 100 - 115 degrees. One other thing you need to look at is whether the indoor coil is suitable for heat pump use. I don't thing the refrigerant is getting back to the outdoor unit. Do you know what pressures the techs are getting?

[bkish]

The coil wasn't cold in the middle, it just was apparently cold toward the bottom. The reasoning I heard is that it is a high efficiency coil and won't be so uniformly hot from top to bottom because of greater heat transfer.

The lineset and coil were checked for blockage, dryers replaced and pressures checked. I don't know what the pressures were, just that they said they were OK.

I think an original thought was there was blockage and refrigerant wasn't cycling back but was checked as OK.

[second opinion]

bkish; you are grasping some of the info and missing the point of some.

You will always have a P error and I error and when you ad together you get a comand.

The algorithm can be adjusted by the cycle rate.

From some of your last post I can see you are confused with the sequence of operation of the system as a whole. When the system is running and the temperature is near set point and lets say the HP is in first stage and the house is loosing 15k btus at X temp and the Hp is producing 15k then it will run constant. This gives you comfort and economy.No temperature swing.
When I stated that the Tstats measured in 1/10 degree increments I did not imply that it turned on and off with a 1/10 differential. It measures the temperature closely to maintain a constant withou a temperature swing.

Same scenario as above set point 70 degrees actual temp 69.5 it will run constant, now the temp drops to 69 the Tstat sees this and brings on second stage compressor and will probably satisfy set point with a slight over shoot from set point.

The purpose of the new comfort controls and high efficiency equipment "multiple stage equipment" is comfort and economy.

I hope this helps

[Airmechanical]

bkish; you are grasping some of the info and missing the point of some.

You will always have a P error and I error and when you ad together you get a comand.

The algorithm can be adjusted by the cycle rate.

From some of your last post I can see you are confused with the sequence of operation of the system as a whole. When the system is running and the temperature is near set point and lets say the HP is in first stage and the house is loosing 15k btus at X temp and the Hp is producing 15k then it will run constant. This gives you comfort and economy.No temperature swing.
When I stated that the Tstats measured in 1/10 degree increments I did not imply that it turned on and off with a 1/10 differential. It measures the temperature closely to maintain a constant withou a temperature swing.

Same scenario as above set point 70 degrees actual temp 69.5 it will run constant, now the temp drops to 69 the Tstat sees this and brings on second stage compressor and will probably satisfy set point with a slight over shoot from set point.

The purpose of the new comfort controls and high efficiency equipment "multiple stage equipment" is comfort and economy.

I hope this helps


i agree with what you said but;

more specifically parameters can be set for comfort (or) economy

also, when it comes to aux. heat, on a very cold day outside

you cant have both (comfort and economy) at the same time!



.

[bkish]

Certainly I can't imagine the stat working in 1/10 degree increments. Like I said, that would be off/on/off/on.

Could there be a situation where the set point was 70 and the stat sees say 69.5 doesn't want to overshoot with the second stage so plugs away with the first stage, never falling behind and never getting ahead? I can see this can be comfortable because the temp is constant but it can't be economical at some point to have the system run all the time. There is a balance where the energy demands of running all the time are ultimately greater than the larger energy requirement to start the system when cycling.

An interesting discussion. Thanks for the insight.

[second opinion]

Try this analogy, you and your friend are in seperate cars. You are both going across town, there are ten lights, you drive 25mph and go from point A to point B and flow through each light.

Now you friend has a new car so he drives 50mph and gets caught at several lights but beats you time wise. Who do you think will use more fuel?

[Daltex]

I think the 1/10 degree increment is for the calculation, not for the set point. In other words it monitors the temp in 1/10 but only to see how fast heat is rising or dropping. If dropping fast it will call for 2nd stage. Dropping slow it may wait and see if temporary fluxuation or not. If continues to drop it will call for additional heat.

[second opinion]

Well Bkish it has been another week. Have we come to an amicable decision?

[bkish]

We had some more movement toward a resolution yesterday, as a matter of fact.

The Gensco Trane rep is going to basically throw in the new equipment at a very significant discount to try to move things along. That means upgrade to a 4 ton 16i system for very little cost. That's the good news.

On the flip side, I'm stuck with the installer though I would have liked to have ditched him. And I still haven't rec'd a response from Trane in Texas about the timer business.

So, there is some progress in a positive direction. If all goes well the system will be swapped out next week.

[beenthere]

There going to pull a 3 ton, and install a 4 ton.

Why do I see another can of worms being opened. :(

Was the system before this not working right 3 ton, a 3 or 4 ton.
If it was a 3 ton.
When they put a 4 ton in. The 4 ton will be bigger then your ductwork can handle. JMO

[dash]

There going to pull a 3 ton, and install a 4 ton.

Why do I see another can of worms being opened. :(

Was the system before this not working right 3 ton, a 3 or 4 ton.
If it was a 3 ton.
When they put a 4 ton in. The 4 ton will be bigger then your ductwork can handle. JMO

I agree,but would hope they plan to address that if the old system was a 3 ton.If not be sure a tell how it works out.

[geodude]

We can hope that the duct system was investigated as part of the decision to up size the unit. I would definitely recommend to change to the shoemaker 600 series for the return grilles and AFP or 375 series for the floor registers depending on ceiling height. This can help lower friction penalty on the duct system. How is it going man?!:D

[bkish]

The thinking is this.

The three ton they installed won't keep the house heated on the HP side of things much below 43 degrees outside. The heat calc shows they were WAY off on sizing. It seems to be a function of sizing, not installation. In the course of trying to figure this thing out, since we have the system moving to the second stage the supply temps are up into the 90's and the system seems to be OK except undersized.

The four ton should heat the house to a more acceptable temp before we have to revert to the propane system. This is the main issue now, the available BTU's of the installed system and where the balance point is. Well, that and the timer issue.

The installer feels the ducting is adequate for a 4 ton system. Right now when the 100K portion of the propane system kicks in the VS airhadler runs at full balst (four tons) and doens't seem loud or problematic in any way.

Beenthere why do you think the ducting will be an issue?

Just curious, but what happens if you have a 4 ton coil and HP and slow the fan CFM down a little.

The removed system was a three ton airhandler and coil with a five ton HP. Yes, I wrote that right. I have the previous owner to thank for that. No wonder the HP compressor only last three years.

[beenthere]

What CFM is the furnace set for. 1300, 1400, 1500, or 1600?

If you slow the blower down alittle, the air temp rise is higher, and you lose alittle efficiency. How much depends on how much you slowed down the blower.

Now for the sad part. A 3 ton 15i, would probaly provide you with almost as much heat as the 4 ton 16i will.

Read post number 52. http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=166107&page=4

Its comparing teh heat output of a 2.5 ton 15i, to a 3 ton 16i.

[bkish]

I really don't care if it's a stage or one stage I guess. I like the extra efficiency of the 2 stage but really I just need BTU's. That thread seemed to imply a 15i has a higher COP which translates into extra efficiency, right?

We have a *DY100R9V4W and the dip switches are
1 OFF
2 ON
3 OFF
4 OFF
5 ON
6 ON
7 OFF
8 ON

That would seem to imply 400 CFM with a 3 ton system or 1200 CFM and if I look a the "Heating First Stage" that means 1020 and "Heating Second Stage" 1439

Hope I got that right. Makes it sound like the furnace isn't flowing a full 4 tons in propane mode.......

Now I'm really confused. Maybe a single stage is a better alternative. More calls to the local distributor and installer....

[bkish]

I guess I should post this also. This is the equipment recommended.

4TWX6048B1 with 4TXCC049BC3

With this config ARI says 39000-39500 btu and HSPF of 8.4-8.5

Any opinions on the eqipment? Any opinions on a 16i vs 15i?

Will likely need to have a decision by the end of the week for all parties involved.

Thanks

[beenthere]

The few 4 ton 15i's I looked at on ARI, have the same, or 2000 more BTU output at 17* as the 3 ton 16i as. I didn't look at all of them. :)
The 4 ton 16i has a higher output then the 3 ton 15i.

Your air flow sounds hig for a 3 ton HP. 1439 is getting alittle high for a 3 ton heat pump, and is in part responsible for your lower discharge temps.
Not sure what capacity your HP is in first stage, but high air flow in first stage will cause low temp rise also.

A TESP on your system would tell them if your ductwork can handle the 4 ton unit.
You might want to ask them to do one.
At ths point you don't want to throw a monket wrench into the works. But on the other hand, you don't want some thing that causes excessive noise, or problems in the summer.

[bkish]

I was thinking because fo the better heating I may not have to go to a 4 ton XL15. I could do a 3.5 perhaps and maybe not have the duct issues.

I am assuming 1439 is the right CFM by looking at the dip switches and under the "Service Facts" in the furnace installers guide. Our setting is Meduim Low according to the guide.

We won't have problems in the summer. This unit is purely for heating.

[second opinion]

I was thinking because fo the better heating I may not have to go to a 4 ton XL15. I could do a 3.5 perhaps and maybe not have the duct issues.

I am assuming 1439 is the right CFM by looking at the dip switches and under the "Service Facts" in the furnace installers guide. Our setting is Meduim Low according to the guide.

We won't have problems in the summer. This unit is purely for heating.

Before you make your decision it is easy for them to check the static pressure and cfm to determine if the duct system will function with the 4 ton.
It should be done regardless.

The 1439 for heating is at 0.1 static and that is more than likely not the case.

[bkish]

Before you make your decision it is easy for them to check the static pressure and cfm to determine if the duct system will function with the 4 ton.
It should be done regardless.

The 1439 for heating is at 0.1 static and that is more than likely not the case.

You've got to be kidding me. Nothing has been "easy" for these guys :)

The assumption is that they put on a 4 ton AH so you would expect the ductwork to handle a 4 ton system. I will ask them for verification today. My guess is that they will keep fan speeds down to work around the ducting issue.

Any thoughts on equipment?

[second opinion]

Proper air flow is critical for performance, in both heating and cooling.
Do not let them set a lower air flow because of duct work.

[beenthere]

Many units are matched to a larger air handler, but the CFM of the duct is for the house, not the air handlers higher CFM rating.

A 4 ton air handler matched to a 3 ton OD unit and the duct supposedly sized for 1200 CFM is common.

[bkish]

Trane in Texas has officially signed off on the timer thing. They say the 802 tsat is only a 3 heat stat and cannot control the two stages of the HP and two stages of the propane.

The Gensco rep didn't come through to my liking about pricing. He dropped the price about 15%. The longer this goes on the more I feel I shouldn't have to pay for anything, even the difference in equipment costs. This has been almost 5 months of aggrivation and BS. Gensco are starting to chime in on the installers mantra that the original install is OK even though the HP is no good below 43 degrees, about 4 months of our 6 month heating season.

The installer says the duct system is adequate for the 4 ton system.

I'm not sure where I'm going to go from here. Back to Gensco, back to Trane or the courts to get satisfaction. He is the Home Depot installer so we have that to fall back on as well as the BBB.

[geodude]

Trane in Texas has officially signed off on the timer thing. They say the 802 tsat is only a 3 heat stat and cannot control the two stages of the HP and two stages of the propane.

The Gensco rep didn't come through to my liking about pricing. He dropped the price about 15%. The longer this goes on the more I feel I shouldn't have to pay for anything, even the difference in equipment costs. This has been almost 5 months of aggrivation and BS. Gensco are starting to chime in on the installers mantra that the original install is OK even though the HP is no good below 43 degrees, about 4 months of our 6 month heating season.

The installer says the duct system is adequate for the 4 ton system.

I'm not sure where I'm going to go from here. Back to Gensco, back to Trane or the courts to get satisfaction. He is the Home Depot installer so we have that to fall back on as well as the BBB.

We always use the 9000 iaq for this application. The 803 will work and is recommended for this application, but I prefer the 9000 for multistage hp w/fossil backup. say what you want, the 9000 is better. If a load calc had been done in the begining none of this would have passed. They could have discussed options based on exsisting conditions. The fact is Trane says their TCS dealers WILL do a load calc. These folks did not, until after the fact. This should be brought up. It is my opinion the installing contractor missed the boat, they should step up.:mad:

[bkish]

My frustration level is rising.

I tried to call Trane in Texas to see if they can pressure for a resolution or step in and get this resolved and their attitude-I kid you not-was we have NO interest in your problem. Gensco is an independant distributor and the installer is an independant dealer and they have no control. I said, you have no control or interest over who uses your name and reputation? She said no.

So I have an installer who is incomptent, and no one cares. I have Gensco who disavows any control over their dealer and Trane who disavows any interest in who sells their equipment or their training or competence. What a wonderful love traingle to be involved in!

[second opinion]

Now that is embarrassing statement!

Who told you that the timer between Y1 and Y2 was correct?

[bkish]

Trane customer service in Texas checked with Trane technical. Do you want specific names?

[second opinion]

Trane customer service in Texas checked with Trane technical. Do you want specific names?

The reason that I asked was the way that you made the statement about the Tstat not being able to control the H/P and fossil fuel.

I can not image that response unless they do not know what the dealer is doing with the timer.

The Tstat is 3 stage. Y1,Y2, and W1 with a jumper on the board that controls W2.

With the timer hooked to Y2 and being fed from Y1 defeates the whole purpose of the Tstat., or "Comfort Control'' as it is marketed and your 2 stage heat pump.

[bkish]

I'm not good with wiring and electrical stuff, but it seems to me the timer jumps yellow and black (Y and BK) I see no Y2 listed on the board so I don't follow you.

[second opinion]

I'm not good with wiring and electrical stuff, but it seems to me the timer jumps yellow and black (Y and BK) I see no Y2 listed on the board so I don't follow you.

The yellow wire is feeding 24 volts to the input of the timer. After the timer times out it sends 24 volts on the black wire to the BK terminal that is where the second stage compressor is energized. When BK sees 24 volts the indoor V/S blower changes from 80% airflow to 100%.

[beenthere]

Sad situation your in. :(

[second opinion]

Trane customer service in Texas checked with Trane technical. Do you want specific names?

Yes.

[bkish]

Yes.

Nicole Fields. I don't know the name of the person she talked to in technical. I didn't ask.

I could call her and ask, but I got very upset with her Friday when she said Trane didn't have anything to do with certifying dealers or controlling them, couldn't really help and didn't care who was doing shoddy work under their name.

You know the thing that makes me most mad is that no one is taking responsibility for this. EVERYONE seems to point the finger of blame at me, saying I'm the one being unreasonable by asking for a new (correctly sized) system and answers to my questions. In their eyes everything done so far is apparently just fine.

Like I'm being unreasonable to ask questions about the timer, ask why a heat calc wasn't done, why the unit wasn't correctly sized, etc, etc, etc. I have NEVER had such crappy customer service from top to bottom. No one has apologized for any of the inconvenience, the length of time and stress trying to get this resolved or for people who are not doing their jobs correctly.

I'm going to fry this guy if I can with Home Depot customer service and I've already talked to a lawyer about looking into my legal options.

[bkish]

Still haven't heard back from the distributor on moving on the pricing. When I last talked to them Friday and said I hoped they could bo better than the couple hundred off the thousands quoted to change equipment they started saying that's unfair, I have a system that works, I have a poorly insulated house, etc.

That's when the wheels came off the wagon. Again, why am I to blame? In some respect after 5 months, goodness knows how many phone calls, many letters, how much propane used that didn't need to be used, and the aggrivation factor maybe I shouldn't pay anything. I can see paying the difference in costs maybe a during the first month, or second, or third or maybe even the fourth. But to be 5 months into this and still without a resolution........

Anyway, Home Depot is now involved. Don't know what it will do but they seem appalled at what's gone on so far.

[hangfirew8]

By all means, pursue Home Depot, but there comes a time when you simply have to at least, talk to a lawyer.

I knew an older gentleman who was in the similar situation as you- marginal new ductwork and oversized furnace installed. While the install guy was well-meaning, he wasn't going to take the hit on the whole new furnace and ripping out 1/2 the ductwork he put in, so he stalled, stalled, stalled. In the end the homeowner had to get a lawyer, and then got results- through a settlement.

In my case, I had a contractor who simply wouldn't/couldn't get a subcontractor to complete a job (not HVAC). Since I hired a contractor so I wouldn't have to manage subs, I tried to impress this upon him, he said he was frustrated but had already paid and contracted with his sub and "there was nothing he could do."

I talked to a lawyer, and told him that (resulting in a few phone hang-ups), but I got my message through! Knowing I had already talked to a lawyer- one I mentioned by name, a name he knew because he'd been in court with him twice before- I got results. He hired another sub and the work got done.

Not the way I wanted to end the relationship, but that's really the way he wanted it- he wanted me to give up or else, so I went with else- and got a lawyer.

It cost me only one hour of lawyer consult time. Best bucks I ever spent.

-HF

[bell3156]

Ive been working with trane for 15yrs, I don't know why your situation is lasting 5 plus months, I can tell you that trane will usually pay for a different contractor to resolve your problem, the companies I have worked for have done that for trane several times over the years. I don't know why they are not doing it in your case. If the contractor wont budge on the price then home depot should pay the contractor the difference. we have never had an issue like this to my knowledge here in phoenix. ( that was not resolved by us, by homedepot, or by trane )

[t3]

bkish wrote:
> But to be 5 months into this and still without a resolution........

having followed the discussions here for about 3 years and having installed a number of systems, I can tell you that in the past there have been instances where a "Holmes on Homes" approach has been used to correct an incorrect installation. it would be up to the individual contractors in your geographical area. you would also have to settle directly with anyone apart and outside any ongoing legal issues with the existing installation as they would have to be indemnified from any liability incurred. you could also decide that your health, peace of mind and life longevity are not worth pursuing justice but rather resolve the installation and leave the future in the hands of Home Depot vs. the original installer.

it would likely make sense for Trane also, in hearing from another of their contractors and in the name of public relations and while I can not speak on their behald or predict what their opinion will be at that moment, smaller miracles have occurred when calm heads prevailed (ref: "..the wheels..off the wagon..")

[second opinion]

Home Depot should not need to pick up the bill on this.

The dealer is the one that has ered from the beginning. He chose to install the equipment without following industry standards, and Tranes. The dealer needs to step up to the plate and do what is right.


The wholesale distributor chose this company to represent the Trane product as a "Comfort Specialist", and Trane chose the distributor to represent there product.

As a "Comfort Specialist" dealer,

On every Trane website "Trane Comfort Specialist" dealers are touted "as the best of the best,working for your comfort"-----------" Not just every dealer qualifies as a Trane Comfort specialists dealer. These independant dealers qualify for this status on a yearly basis by meating Trane's standards for customer satisfaction and continuing education." etc.,etc.,etc.


From what I can see this dealer has failed on all levels. When this happens the wholesale distributor and Trane should both get involved and remedy the situation by giving the dealer two options make it right at your expense, or we will do it for you.

As far as there last response to you that you have a system that is working why are you complaining, well they are right it is working,BUT it is not working as a high efficiency "Energy Star System" as advertised to the public.

I believe that even though Trane has been contacted that all of the critical information has not reached the right people in this matter. I do not believe that any member of the F.O.E team would tell the FSR at Gensco that if you can not get the system to perform as designed install a timer between Y1 and Y2 and make our premium end 2 stage heat pump system a single stage. Do not worry that we have spent millions of dollars on research and development on the sequence of operation between the 16i, and the Tcon 802/803 thermostat to give our customers the best comfort controled system for there home, you just go ahead and alter it no body will know. Oh and by the way when you install this timer and change how the control functions it might void the UL listing, but hech you have insurance right. I seriously doubt that that conversation took place.

[bkish]

bkish wrote:
> But to be 5 months into this and still without a resolution........

having followed the discussions here for about 3 years and having installed a number of systems, I can tell you that in the past there have been instances where a "Holmes on Homes" approach has been used to correct an incorrect installation. it would be up to the individual contractors in your geographical area. you would also have to settle directly with anyone apart and outside any ongoing legal issues with the existing installation as they would have to be indemnified from any liability incurred. you could also decide that your health, peace of mind and life longevity are not worth pursuing justice but rather resolve the installation and leave the future in the hands of Home Depot vs. the original installer.

it would likely make sense for Trane also, in hearing from another of their contractors and in the name of public relations and while I can not speak on their behald or predict what their opinion will be at that moment, smaller miracles have occurred when calm heads prevailed (ref: "..the wheels..off the wagon..")

It's hard to be calm now after this amount of time and being told I should shoulder the blame for this. It's not like I asking for another color outdoor unit becuase it doesn't match my siding. I'm asking for the system I asked for and should be installed. I spent premium money for quality products and service and have NOT recieved them. I think, in fact, I have been beyond calm or this wouldn't be still going on.

Home Depot shouldn't pick up the tab, I agree. But they are leverage. Just like getting a letter from a lawyer. Leverage to tip people into action (hopefully).

On todays agenda. Call Gensco and call the next higher up in the Trane customer service food chain.

[second opinion]

Check your Email

[bkish]

Ive been working with trane for 15yrs, I don't know why your situation is lasting 5 plus months, I can tell you that trane will usually pay for a different contractor to resolve your problem, the companies I have worked for have done that for trane several times over the years. I don't know why they are not doing it in your case. If the contractor wont budge on the price then home depot should pay the contractor the difference. we have never had an issue like this to my knowledge here in phoenix. ( that was not resolved by us, by homedepot, or by trane )

I did ask Gensco the distributor to get another installer involved and they can't unless it's equipment failure/problems, installation and such. I tried to explain that I don't trust the installer, etc to no avail. It's hard because they are not working in my interest. They are working in their interest and probably to some degree the installers interest because they have a relationship maybe they want to protect.

[bell3156]

You should deal directly with trane and home depot at this point, who is gensco, I have not read all the post. I would actually send a link to this website to trane...They may be intersted in the number of eyes on this post.
I really don't know why this is not getting resolved but the contractor is not stepping up and 5 months is long enough.It may be time to call the attourney general If home depot and trane are not bending over backwards for you ( And I cant imagine they are not, I have never known them not to, as I have taken care of this type of thing for trane in the past)...This is of topic but here is an example of trane in phoenix, I wenT to a commercial job and there was a ten year old trane ten ton unit on a school, from the factory trane had strapped all the distribution lines, it looked great but they were perpendicular to each other causing several refrigerant leaks. Trane paid me for the entire job at no cost to the customer. No other manufacturer would do this....

[bell3156]

There are almost 9,000 views...This should start a fire...I would also send this link to home depot

[t3]

bkish:
> It's hard to be calm now after this amount of time and being told I should shoulder the blame for this.

I agree.

The issue is that people and corporations do not like being made to pay up and an admission of guilt is to be avoided at all costs (ref. legal terminology "settled without admission of ..") as it can open a floodgate of previously papered over installations.

The highest priority right now should be to make your system and installation whole, complete and make you happy with the system. This can be done via a "Holmes on Homes" approach. I am even aware of a situation in the past where a well respected contractor was flown in, spent 48 hours on customer site, brought all tools, equipment and corrected and reinstalled everything. It can be done and you can be made whole for that part of this issue.

The last priority should be to pursue to faulty parties, allowing the tort system to take it's time. If you wait until there is a legal settlement, that time may not occur until year or years from now.

[bell3156]

I'm going to send this link to trane in phoenix, I don't know if it will help. I wish the contractor was on here so we could get the other side of the story.

[t3]

Bkish,

Just one more quick suggestion and I *would stress* and implore you to use this as a tool of last resort.

State clearly, in writing if possible (registered letter to all parties, installer, Home Depot, Trane) that you will be taking your case to the local and national television station. Do not be overly specific in details.

They do *not want* to see this aired.

Watch for quick action to take place. Keep your calm and treat everyone with respect.

[bkish]

I feel like I have treated everyone with respect so far. Thought I did call the installer incompetent in my letter to Trane.

Gensco is the local Trane distributor. This is who Trane, Inc would like to see solve this I think.

If the installer were on here I'm sure he say the system is fine considering our "energy pig". His words in quotes.

He would say he's trying to do the right thing by agreeing to an install of new equipment at my cost (four months and a ton of aggrivation into this).

That heat calcs aren't worth anything (paraphrasing him). He doesn't believe in them. Hence he doesn't have the software to do one and had to borrow it.

I could go on and on. He knows I frequent this site and could respond if he wanted.

[beenthere]

Trane paid me for the entire job at no cost to the customer. No other manufacturer would do this....


Are you saying no other manufacturer would do something that stupid.

[bell3156]

beenthere, I feel an argument about brand coming on...please don't basterdize this thread...

I have contacted my local trane rep in phoenix and he is going to look into this...I hope he can get the ball moving faster for you.

[beenthere]

No bashing.

How do you KNOW that no other brand would have paid to repair a mistake they made?

[bell3156]

I don't really want to get into this...
At one time or the other, I have sold most major and minor brands, besides working for a manufacturer, not only would they not pay for it after the first year but some would only pay for this in the first 90 ,60, 30,days or not at all. By all means if you have an instance of a different manufacturer paying for something 9yrs out of warranty let me know. sorry I made the claim, here is the disclaimer: no other manufacture has come close to this kind of service in my experience in the last 15 yrs in phoenix.

I care about the product and the name, I hope the guys in phoenix can do something.

[beenthere]

Can't say for 9 years out.
Commercial national accounts get prefered treatment though.

If they paid to fix crossed linesets that rubbed through, they had something to do with it, besides selling the units.

[Daltex]

bk, you have way more patience than I do. 5 months and still going? I wouldn't have lasted a month. Time to call in the big guns. Retain a lawyer. File a suit listing EVERY entity involved. Add emotional distress, cost of unnecessary fuel, etc. etc. They will have to reimburse legal fees to you after you prevail so you might find an attorney that will take this on contingency if your pockets aren't that deep after spending a wad on your system.

Home Depot has the deepest pockets so they will have attorneys for such matters and could stall but the cost of legal fees and the fact that the actual damages may be small compaired to the punitive damages will settle this fast.

You gave them more than a chance. Time to move forward.

[bell3156]

Beenthere
we are getting of topic here...I was just expressing the kind of service I have recieved from trane, thats all... This was a small school house and at the time a small contractor with a great relationship with trane...I wont post anymore on this...sorry to go off topic here

[beenthere]

Beenthere
we are getting of topic here...I was just expressing the kind of service I have recieved from trane, thats all... This was a small school house and at the time a small contractor with a great relationship with trane...I wont post anymore on this...sorry to go off topic here
Yea, alittle.
He posted he already called Trane, and they gave him the cold shoulder.
Since neither of us are Trane reps, neither can say what Trane will or won't do, for a resi customer.

[Airmechanical]

bkish, where are you located?



.

[bkish]

I am in Silverdale, Washington. 98383

I rec'd an e-mail from Trane today that this has gone up a level in the customer service chain. They are trying, according to the e-mail, to get things solved but as of yet have no solution. They have no timeline to resolution, but I am somewhat happy they seem interested again.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, what I think I want as much as anything is acknowledgement from them this situation is AFU and a simple apology. I feel like everyone's trying to cover it up or pass the buck and make the cranky customer go away.

I work in customer service. Day in and day out for the better part of the last two decades. If I screw up and I do--I'm human after all--I fess up. I don't like to make mistakes any more than anyone else but I've learned the quickest way for all parties to move on and to engender respect from customers is to admit to mistakes and make it right. It's that simple. They did a study of physicians who had a bad outcome where patients died or there were complications. The single biggest factor in avoiding litigation was a simple and sincere apology. The more people tried to shift blame or cover up the angrier patients and families got and the more likely they were to sue and the more likely they were to win.

Food for thought....

[geodude]

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum! :mad: