Trane System not Working

[bkish]

Another update.

I rec'd a call fromt he installer. He is willing to put in the larger system at no cost to me. I think I will be happy with that because one of the main things I don't like about the system as it functions now is it is too small for our needs. This will bring our balance point down quite a bit from the 43-45 degrees it is now. He assures me our ducting will handle a larger system.

As far as whether he can get the system functioning right, we'll see. I can't get Trane to get him out of the loop so my options are limited and I'm running up againt a deadline to get this settled. The install will have happened 1 yr ago next month and my options start to run out as time elapses.

I still have Trane in Texas looking into this timer thing they put on. I'm still not satisfied with the response that this is necessary and needed. I have e-mailed them pictures and have yet to get a response. I hope I can get this answered also.

[second opinion]

XL products come with a two year dealer obligation.

But it looks like progress.

[geodude]

Just for good measure since the system is being upgraded, change out the supply registers to a shoemaker 375 type for ceilings under 10 feet and use AFP style for 10 and up. For the return air use 600 series grilles. This will allow more airflow with less noise and friction.

The translation of my previous post was "if you want peace, prepare for war."

[bkish]

When I talked of time running out, I'm speaking of trying to get Home Depot involved to apply leverage and most importantly, time running out for my legal options. I was told I would have one year but we weren't sure if that was one year from date of discovery or from install.

Geodude, I did look at the registers. Mine look suspiciously similar but I'm sure are not the same. I had to look up your quote online. I had heard the translation, but not the original latin.

Thanks so far to all.

[geodude]

In case anyone was wondering about the registers, the two types I listed are for floor registers and the refrence to ceiling was the distance from floor to ceiling. The 375 has a slightly wider throw then the AFP, this allows greater influence to the air in the room for mixing.
The 600 series return grilles will allow more air flow with a lot less noise from turbulence of louvered blades found on most cheaper grilles.
Have a great weekend and it looks like things are possibly moving your direction!:D

[second opinion]

Bkish; are we there yet?

[second opinion]

Congratulations Bkish; I hope your new system is functioning correctly.;)

[beenthere]

Congratulations Bkish; I hope your new system is functioning correctly.;)
Curiosity is getting to ya, huh. :)

[second opinion]

Curiosity is getting to ya, huh. :)

No I know what the end result was. I just think it took way to long to arive at it, and if he had not been persistant it would have just ended as "that is just the way it is live with it."

Short of having future problems this thread should be dead.:D

[cmajerus]

So what did they do for the controls? That is what i am curious about. If it is working now they must have done something different there, I know the original setup was not proper.

[JBM1000]

Hard to tell from photo's but looks like the 3 ton is set for 3.5 ton for tonnage dips and you could also go for low speed heat dips and get up to a 61' or higher temp rise for gas. The h/pump if it is should be tried at 400 CFM just for grins and see if heat falls in line to your liking. Of course it all depends on static along with velocity and grill face throw and blah, blah, blah.

[bkish]

Sorry about not posting. This site sometimes doesn't tell me when there is activity on the thread.

Last Wednesday the installer took the old system out and installed a 4 ton xl16i at no charge to me. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday were a dream. The system functioned like we hoped. Oddly, supply temps rose much higher than expected. Don'tknow what he had the fan set at, maybe slower to give better temps.....

Anyway, last night there was a "pop", a slight hiss and in the course of 45 min the HP stopped working. The outside fan continued to run, the indoor airhandler continued to run, but no compressor and no heat. Wasn't defrost because the outdoor unit wasn't hot and like I said the compressor wasn't running. So, here we are again.......

Of note, Trane Texas has never, despite repeated phone calls and repeated e-mails, ever responded back to me about the timer deal. And I was talking and e-mailing to the head of customer service. In fact, he has never once called me back despite repeated attempts to contact him ove r the last month.

Another call to the installer today for this........

You guys want pictures of the dipswitch settings? Havne't looked to see if they were changed.

[beenthere]

Sure.

[bkish]

OK, here is a picture of the dipswitch settings.

And for good measure, a picture of the ever present timer.

[fv_tom]

One thing I still don't get...and I read this entire thread from start to finish last night:

Where are the other set of low-voltage wires? Am I correct in assuming those are the wires from the t-stat? If so, where are the wires going from the terminal strip to the outdoor unit?

[bkish]

Those are not the wires directly from the tsat. There is a junction box outside the air handler that feeds wires into the air handler and to the outside unit.

[fv_tom]

Those are not the wires directly from the tsat. There is a junction box outside the air handler that feeds wires into the air handler and to the outside unit.

Is the "junction box" the dual-fuel kit they keep telling you that you don't need?

[second opinion]

Sorry about not posting. This site sometimes doesn't tell me when there is activity on the thread.

Last Wednesday the installer took the old system out and installed a 4 ton xl16i at no charge to me. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday were a dream. The system functioned like we hoped. Oddly, supply temps rose much higher than expected. Don'tknow what he had the fan set at, maybe slower to give better temps.....

Anyway, last night there was a "pop", a slight hiss and in the course of 45 min the HP stopped working. The outside fan continued to run, the indoor airhandler continued to run, but no compressor and no heat. Wasn't defrost because the outdoor unit wasn't hot and like I said the compressor wasn't running. So, here we are again.......

Of note, Trane Texas has never, despite repeated phone calls and repeated e-mails, ever responded back to me about the timer deal. And I was talking and e-mailing to the head of customer service. In fact, he has never once called me back despite repeated attempts to contact him ove r the last month.

Another call to the installer today for this........

You guys want pictures of the dipswitch settings? Havne't looked to see if they were changed.

I spoke to soon:(:(:(

[bkish]

Gensco and the installer still say no dual fuel kit needed. None is installed.

Trane won't talk to me so I can't ask them.......:rolleyes:

Installer out today to address this new issue.

[bkish]

OK, I did e-mail Trane last night and did actaully receive a respose!

According to Trane, the timer is an approved solution. According to the Trane Installer’s Guide (Literature No. 18-BC55D1-2) this is OK. It sounds like, in certain applications, there could be a need to use the timer to force the HP into second stage for more heat. Why you would need this and not use the thermostat is a mystery, but this is the solution. Maybe, I can see this possibly being a solution in an undersized system like mine where the fisrt stage is basically worthless. Still, that's a lot of money to pay for a 2 stage HP only to turn it into a one stage HP.

On another note, the installer has to cancel until Friday due to the tech being sick. So by then I will be one week and only three days operational with the new system. Sigh.....

[jrbenny]

I would've already moved it to the curb.

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/HomeDepotCanada/images/catalog/25b63625-2206-4aab-becf-c9035dc22721_4.jpg

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml01/01203a.jpg

[beenthere]

The honeywell IAQ wouldn't need that timer.
When it detects the first stage is at 90% capacity, it brings on the second stage.

[fv_tom]

Gensco and the installer still say no dual fuel kit needed. None is installed.

Trane won't talk to me so I can't ask them.......:rolleyes:

Installer out today to address this new issue.

Can you post a pic of this junction box?

[bkish]

One rats nest coming up!

[jeff520]

I got the idea of a junction box after my system was installed, seems so logical I'm surprised it is not a part of a standard installation.

and yes, there is a jumper missing - took the photo before the final check!

[Woodshed]

Jeff - Where did you get the junction box?

[jeff520]

Its a Radio Shack Project Enclosure box with some terminal blocks from the same place. The LEDs show what the thermostat is calling - I wanted to know which stage the heat and cooling were running in. Originally set up for a heatpump, but this was changed to straight AC after the box was built.

Since then I put together a smaller version that is faster and less expensive to build and still has the indicator lights.

Now, I think the junction box should be just that and the indicator lights should live by the thermostat - email me if you want a picture of that, this is getting way too DIY!

[second opinion]

OK, I did e-mail Trane last night and did actaully receive a respose!

According to Trane, the timer is an approved solution. According to the Trane Installer’s Guide (Literature No. 18-BC55D1-2) this is OK. It sounds like, in certain applications, there could be a need to use the timer to force the HP into second stage for more heat. Why you would need this and not use the thermostat is a mystery, but this is the solution. Maybe, I can see this possibly being a solution in an undersized system like mine where the fisrt stage is basically worthless. Still, that's a lot of money to pay for a 2 stage HP only to turn it into a one stage HP.

On another note, the installer has to cancel until Friday due to the tech being sick. So by then I will be one week and only three days operational with the new system. Sigh.....

Here again the information is not correct, the literature# is the installers guide for the outdoor unit and does not spec. any Tstat. you should have this document to review.

[second opinion]

I got the idea of a junction box after my system was installed, seems so logical I'm surprised it is not a part of a standard installation.

and yes, there is a jumper missing - took the photo before the final check!

Nice looking job:)

[Woodshed]

Its a Radio Shack Project Enclosure box with some terminal blocks from the same place. The LEDs show what the thermostat is calling - I wanted to know which stage the heat and cooling were running in. Originally set up for a heatpump, but this was changed to straight AC after the box was built.

Since then I put together a smaller version that is faster and less expensive to build and still has the indicator lights.

Now, I think the junction box should be just that and the indicator lights should live by the thermostat - email me if you want a picture of that, this is getting way too DIY!


Jeff -

You've been emailed...

[cmajerus]

I am at Trane Sales Boot Camp this week, and I believe I just found the pictures to add to my wheel of value of WHY my company is WORTH so much more than the other "comparable company" that is bidding the exact same system as me!!!!


So sad to see that CERTIFIED means jack these days!! And I find it hard to believe you have been patched through to any TECHNICAL SUPPORT at Trane, nobody at that level of a major company would tell you that is an acceptable wiring setup for your system!!!

Sorry Tommy, but you got hosed!!!!

[bkish]

What part of the wiring is not acceptable? The timer? That we know. Or are you talking about the junction box and wiring?

I have not reviewed the document specified, but would it matter where the timer is? Whether it is forcing the HP into second stage from the outside wiring or air handler? OK, I don't have that exact document but I have the installers guide. I'm not sure where the timer is specificed in it. There is a place for an "Optional Remote". Is that it?

I don't know what to do. I am speaking with the head of customer service. I suppose I could ask to be patched to technical support but I highly doubt that would happen. And so far Trane's track record is pathetic.

I may have gotten hosed but this is not only from the installer, but the company many of you represent. So far Trane themselves seems to be the gang who can't shoot straight when it cames to customer sevice, support, training and a whole host of other problems. That reflects poorly on them and by default poorly on you who deal Trane products whether you are competent or not.

Do you think anyone looking at a Trane system, reading this post, would still consider a Trane system? I think not. Ultimately we all lose. I get a crap ass system and you guys lose business. I think we should all be upset about what's gone on.

[cmajerus]

Well I don't have the lit. with me myself, but I cannot see any reason that it would include a delay on make aftermarket timer to be an acceptable solution on a system this sophisticated, someone is blowing some good smoke. As many have stated, I cannot believe it is not a curbside lawn ornament by now!

Insist on the IAQ stat be installed, whether you have to pay for it or not, before you pull every hair out of your head.

If they cannot grasp the concept of how to properly install this control, then you may wan to just bring in a separate contractor altogether

[21degrees]

In my professional opinion Trane has let you down and I would let people know what kind of service you received from them. So the saying is true!It is hard to start a trane

[second opinion]

Well I don't have the lit. with me myself, but I cannot see any reason that it would include a delay on make aftermarket timer to be an acceptable solution on a system this sophisticated, someone is blowing some good smoke. As many have stated, I cannot believe it is not a curbside lawn ornament by now!

Insist on the IAQ stat be installed, whether you have to pay for it or not, before you pull every hair out of your head.

If they cannot grasp the concept of how to properly install this control, then you may wan to just bring in a separate contractor altogether

The Lit.# is the installation manual for the outdoor unit. Who ever told him that it was an approved method in the literature is dead wrong.

Some one from FOE should step in and nip this in the *** this consumer and all that have visited a near 12000 view post are not going to hold Trane as a top of the line product. At some point "politics" need to be set aside and this consumer taken care of. Each Trane dealer that is trying to uphold the the integrity of the product is being harmed by this entire situation.:(

[beenthere]

Almost as much, as seeing that a train dealer, doesn't know how to spell TRANE. :(

[21degrees]

I am sorry TrAiN dealers but I was not aware of change of spelling, what next amexican standard.:eek::eek:
Almost as much, as seeing that a train dealer, doesn't know how to spell TRANE. :(

[bkish]

Well I don't have the lit. with me myself, but I cannot see any reason that it would include a delay on make aftermarket timer to be an acceptable solution on a system this sophisticated, someone is blowing some good smoke. As many have stated, I cannot believe it is not a curbside lawn ornament by now!

Insist on the IAQ stat be installed, whether you have to pay for it or not, before you pull every hair out of your head.

If they cannot grasp the concept of how to properly install this control, then you may wan to just bring in a separate contractor altogether

Which Honeywell stat? The 1002 or the 1004?

[geodude]

Ask for the pro9000 IAQ stat from honeywell. It is the one I use with your exact set up ( equipment )

[second opinion]

Almost as much, as seeing that a train dealer, doesn't know how to spell TRANE. :(

Now was that nice?

[beenthere]

Now was that nice?
Perhaps not.

But I thought it neccesary. :)

[bkish]

Well, the tech showed up today.

The short version is that the start up tech didn't set the charge right. He set the charge on the first stage only. Hence, when it went into second stage, high head pressure, high temps, compressor overload.

Apparently Certified and Comfort Specialist do mean jack. That's a rookie mistake.

Anyway, I will update you as the system goes to crap for some other reason.

BTW, the tech said Honeywell stats are not built as well as Trane stats. Although built by Honeywell, they are built to a different standard for Trane. And he said there is no difference in programming between the IAQ and our Trane 102. Not that I believe him, just what he said.

Geodude, if you ever come up to the Puget Sound area fishing or something, stop by. Bring an IAQ, we'll throw out the crab pot, drink some beers and put in the IAQ.

[beenthere]

Did you mean to type 802?

The Honeywell IAQ, brings on the second stage when it determines the first stage has reached 90% capacity.
So if the 802 needs a timer relay for your heat pump, it can't have the same programing.

[geodude]

Well, the tech showed up today.

The short version is that the start up tech didn't set the charge right. He set the charge on the first stage only. Hence, when it went into second stage, high head pressure, high temps, compressor overload.

Apparently Certified and Comfort Specialist do mean jack. That's a rookie mistake.

Anyway, I will update you as the system goes to crap for some other reason.

BTW, the tech said Honeywell stats are not built as well as Trane stats. Although built by Honeywell, they are built to a different standard for Trane. And he said there is no difference in programming between the IAQ and our Trane 102. Not that I believe him, just what he said.

Geodude, if you ever come up to the Puget Sound area fishing or something, stop by. Bring an IAQ, we'll throw out the crab pot, drink some beers and put in the IAQ.

I will call if I am in the area! for sure!

[bkish]

Rec'd a call yesterday from the main Tech Rep at Gensco.

Considering all that's gone on, including the overcharging of the new unit (head pressure of 500), he wants to come out for a double check. I couldn't agree more. I will let you know what he finds next week.

The new unit seems to run fine. Very much improved with the added capacity. I liked the heat output with the 500 head pressure. Almost better than the propane furnace!

[MrMcGoo]

I had a Trane 16i installed this last week. It's running a Tstat 802 from Trane to get the full Trane rebate. We had some "issues" during installation, but it seems to have come out ok so far.

I set the refirgeration to come on yesterday even though the temperature in the house was only 74*F. I set the stat to drop the temp to 68*F. After running for enough time to drop the temp to 71*F, the stat decided that the cooling was taking too long and kicked the system up to high speed. The temperature dropped rapidly to the set point. Conclusion: The Tstat 802 can handle the dual spped compressor on my system when set up correctly.

The techs traced every tstat wire in my system on the diagram to double check their work. They found an error and corrected it. They verified defrost worked and verified that the dual speed worked. They were not happy about the cost of the time, but at least they wanted it right.

Good luck on getting the charge right, if the day isn't very warm. After the charge is "corrected" I'd want a visit on a very warm day to verify superheat and subcool.

Bill

[mywifeiscold]

I have a trane XT300C. I called Trane and they could not help. I have all 7 days and all four periods Wake, Leave, Return, and Sleep set to cool at 79F. Each day and each evening the system will reach 80F and then turn the cooling on. Sometimes we sit there after the cooling kicks on as the thermostat displays 79F, then 78F, then 77F, then at about 76F my wife typically yells at me to go out and buy a different thermostat. The display says "Wait" in the upper left corner and the air will usually stay on (in cool mode) until about 76F or 75F and then shut off. If my wife gets too cold we sometimes hit the "run program" button and it shuts the cooling off and goes back to seemingly normal operation. I called Trane and they had absolutely no ideas. They said "if it is set to 79F the cooling should only come on once the thermostat displays 80F or higher and should then immediately shut off when it again displays 79F". They wanted me to be sure the snowflake displayed on the unit -- so we could be sure the thermostat was turning on the cooling as opposed to the AC unit turning on by itself -- and the snowflake does display during this issue which the trane expert says means the thermostat is turning on the cooling and keeping it on past the temp set in the thermostat. The instruction manual mentions "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery Mode" and "Conventional Recovery Mode" but does not say how to switch modes. The small box at the bottom middle of the display is not displayed, so according to the manual the system is in "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery Mode". My unit does not seem to be functioning "intelligently" -- so how can I switch to "conventional recovery mode" and will this help? Any thoughts? Also -- could the droop settings be set wrong, and how can I change that? Your expertise is greatly needed.

[jrbenny]

I have a trane XT300C. I called Trane and they could not help. I have all 7 days and all four periods Wake, Leave, Return, and Sleep set to cool at 79F. Each day and each evening the system will reach 80F and then turn the cooling on. Sometimes we sit there after the cooling kicks on as the thermostat displays 79F, then 78F, then 77F, then at about 76F my wife typically yells at me to go out and buy a different thermostat. The display says "Wait" in the upper left corner and the air will usually stay on (in cool mode) until about 76F or 75F and then shut off. If my wife gets too cold we sometimes hit the "run program" button and it shuts the cooling off and goes back to seemingly normal operation. I called Trane and they had absolutely no ideas. They said "if it is set to 79F the cooling should only come on once the thermostat displays 80F or higher and should then immediately shut off when it again displays 79F". They wanted me to be sure the snowflake displayed on the unit -- so we could be sure the thermostat was turning on the cooling as opposed to the AC unit turning on by itself -- and the snowflake does display during this issue which the trane expert says means the thermostat is turning on the cooling and keeping it on past the temp set in the thermostat. The instruction manual mentions "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery Mode" and "Conventional Recovery Mode" but does not say how to switch modes. The small box at the bottom middle of the display is not displayed, so according to the manual the system is in "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery Mode". My unit does not seem to be functioning "intelligently" -- so how can I switch to "conventional recovery mode" and will this help? Any thoughts? Also -- could the droop settings be set wrong, and how can I change that? Your expertise is greatly needed.
You need to start your own thread.

[bkish]

Well, here is the likely conclusion of this thread.

The main guy from the distributor came out today. He checked everything and spent quite a bit of time here. He answered all my questions also. He disabled the timer and is looking into an updated stat. Everything apparently checked out with regard to the new system.

We are also quite a bit happier with the new system. Good airflow, good supply temps and the ability to heat our house when it was 34 the other day. The greater airflow has also helped even the temps around the house. No more cool areas.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread and helped me stand up for myself and force the issue to the correct solution.

[second opinion]

BK; I would like to say congratulations but that did not work last time. Send me an update.

[geodude]

HOOODEEEEEHOOOO!! call the guy every day until he gets you the updated stat!

[second opinion]

HOOODEEEEEHOOOO!! call the guy every day until he gets you the updated stat!

There is no updated Tstat. this is still a bad piece of info.

[bkish]

He said there are new algorithims in an update for the 802 stat. He is verifying and will let me know.

Regardless, without the timer the HP seems to run fine.

Keeping my fingers crossed about all of this.

[geodude]

[QUOTE=bkish;1855399]He said there are new algorithims in an update for the 802 stat. He is verifying and will let me know.

I have been told this as well by my rsp.