Horrific Sound from Heat Pump

[RyanHughes]

The heat pump began to make a horrific noise recently. Wife was outside with the dog and apparently it scared the dog it was so bad. She described it as a crashing noise. I went outside and listened to it and it sounded like the compressor was making a horrible grinding noise. The fan was still running. I thought maybe noncondensibles, but would this just start happening randomly even though the system was evacuated and charged Christmas Eve? On Christmas Eve, the system was evacuated, a vacuum was pulled, etc. when the tech was installing a new muffler and line dryer. The tech did say the compressor was working harder than it needed to be according to his amp meter. Any input is appreciated. I'll be calling a service tech, but I am personally curious as to what this could be. I turned the system off, but I'm thinking about turning it back on here shortly to see if it persists.

Here is what it sounds/looks like: http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd276/ryanhughes126/heat%20pump/?action=view&current=MVI_0053.flv (ignore the apparently slow-moving fan - that's just the camera)

It's louder and more apparent than the camera makes it seem, but hopefully you all can recognize this sound.

Thanks in advance.

[nubbin]

Have you called the tech? I always prefer to be called back after working on a system that quickly has a problem. It helps me learn and correct my mistakes, or expand my skills to look wider for other problems. There are several causes related and unrelated to the work done. Once it included a installation manual left in the indoor unit that blocked the coil.

[RyanHughes]

Thanks for the reply. I am going to call the tech back. I think my full service agreement includes free emergency service... I just checked and it says "Emergency service 24 hours a day, 7 days a week." I might just go ahead and give them a call today.

[beenthere]

By sound along can't say for sure. But sounds like comp may be just about dead.
If it turns out to be the comp.
Save some money, and just get a matching system installed, don't change out the comp.

[RyanHughes]

I gave the company a call; I'm having them come out to look at it.

[BaldLoonie]

Sounds like an unhappy scroll in defrost.

[RyanHughes]

The fan was running normally and the discharge line was very got, however, so I don't think it is in defrost, but what do I know. The emergency service tech called and we're "in line." I have confidence in this company; they are the "Leader in Home Comfort Since 1931."

[beenthere]

they are the "Leader in Home Comfort Since 1931."

So are any of those techs from 1931 still working there. :)

[RyanHughes]

Doubtful. :D

I'll update this thread with the diagnosis. The tech who called sounded like a different tech than the one I've been seeing all along. Thanks for the help.

[Swampfox]

Sounds like high head, internal relief open

[arctic pole htg & a/c]

from the movie picture, you will see that the fan is turning backwards due to the blade angle, and too slow, and the compressor is sounding like it does not have that full power. All this = bad dual capacitor.

[RyanHughes]

Although it appears it is spinning backwards and in the wrong direction, that is just my camera. The fan and compressor are running with added noise. I think the suction line is hotter than it should be. I felt it and it was burning hot. Thanks for the input; I'm waiting for the tech to arrive.

This young scroll has been through a lot, from toggling on and off rapidly (bad capacitor), running low on freon, and running with virtually no freon. I can't blame it if the thing gave up.

I really question if all of this leads back to the fact I let a friend's company install a Lennox 13 SEER air handler with my 10 SEER Payne, a solution which they did not see any problem with at all.

[geodude]

Time for a new matched system! Why would you put a 10 seer heat pump in anyway? I assume that the "price was right"? But putting a 13seer airhandler on a 10 seer unit won't hurt it, it may even squeak a little more effciency from the 10 seer unit. Unless the indoor coil is over/under sized.Have the tech check to be sure the orfice on the liquid line is the right one. I still would reccomend to replace the out door unit with the same brabd as the indoor unit and do a triple evac on the refrigerant line set.

[RyanHughes]

The 10 SEER Payne was existing (it's not old at all, from 2004) when the air handler was put in. You're saying a 13 SEER Lennox and a 10 SEER Payne isn't hurting the performance? What's all this ramble about matched systems then?

I don't see it as economically wise to invest in a whole new matched system when the indoor and outdoor unit are both within 4 years of age. I guess I'm left with no other choice (besides replacing the compressor only, which I don't want to do) if that compressor is shot, though.

[geodude]

A new compressor would be a lower cost option then replacing the outdoor unit, a matched system will give your home more value! How long till the next Failure? at least a new out door unit may have a better warranty. Many units are now ten years on the compressor. BY saying I reccomend a " matched system" I meant BRAND.

[RyanHughes]

Here is what the tech wrote down:

"Outside HP making loud noise - inspected by checking refrigerant pressures - 65/210, amped compressor - ranged from 28.9 amps down to 23.4 amps, max on unit is 22.3 - the loud noise was coming from compressor. All imformation has been taken - we will contact Payne to see if they will grant/honor them warranty on the compressor. (But all in all the outside unit sohuld match the inside, this problem could happen again by changing just the compressor.)"

Would putting in a Lennox to match the CB26UH-042-230-1 that was installed during the summer be a good or a bad idea? I understand the Lennox Merit series is a "cheap" line of equipment anyway, and the inside unit isn't even a variable speed air handler anyway. This company deals with Goodman and Amana mostly but can install Trane, American Standard, or something else by customer request. The tech said if you buy an Amana, you'd be pretty safe with that system because of the warranty and lifetime replacement guarantee. This is something I'll have to think about and would appreciate some input on. Put in compressor if the warranty is honored by Payne (which I doubt)? Replace the outside unit with a "cheap" Lennox Merit series R-22 heat pump? Replace both units with Amana (or possibly Trane or American Standard)?

[crmont]

The 10 SEER Payne was existing (it's not old at all, from 2004) when the air handler was put in. You're saying a 13 SEER Lennox and a 10 SEER Payne isn't hurting the performance? What's all this ramble about matched systems then?

I don't see it as economically wise to invest in a whole new matched system when the indoor and outdoor unit are both within 4 years of age. I guess I'm left with no other choice (besides replacing the compressor only, which I don't want to do) if that compressor is shot, though.

You can have a mismatched system but when you use equipment from different manufacturers there is no engineering data to properly size the meetering devices. It takes an experienced tech to make a system like your work efficiently. You usually gain some efficiency when the indoor coil is larger.

It's hard to tell if it's just a loud clatter or clatter with a loud hissing sound.

When a compressor becomes over pressurized, a high pressure relief valve opens and relieves the excess head pressure back into the suction side of the compressor. This causes the internal temperature of the compressor (and discharge line) to increase rapidly. The internal thermal overload of the compressor will open and the compressor will shut off until it cools. The outdoor fan will continue to run. It usually takes 60 seconds or less for the overload to open. It can take hours for the compressor and overload to cool and the compressor to restart.

As I stated in your other thread, make sure the head pressure is checked IN HEATING under high load conditions. Forget checking superheat on a mismatched system in the winter. If the pressures are normal in heating, then it sounds like your compressor is on it's last legs. (Heating head pressure should not be above 300 psi ever on an r-22 system)

An oversized indoor coil usually makes for a lower head pressure in heating mode when properly charged.

The indoor fan should be running anytime the outdoor unit is running (without exception)

Low indoor airflow is the biggest cause of high head pressure in heating.

An overcharge will cause high head pressure.

[crmont]

Here is what the tech wrote down:

"Outside HP making loud noise - inspected by checking refrigerant pressures - 65/210, amped compressor - ranged from 28.9 amps down to 23.4 amps, max on unit is 22.3 - the loud noise was coming from compressor. All imformation has been taken - we will contact Payne to see if they will grant/honor them warranty on the compressor. (But all in all the outside unit sohuld match the inside, this problem could happen again by changing just the compressor.)"

Would putting in a Lennox to match the CB26UH-042-230-1 that was installed during the summer be a good or a bad idea? I understand the Lennox Merit series is a "cheap" line of equipment anyway, and the inside unit isn't even a variable speed air handler anyway. This company deals with Goodman and Amana mostly but can install Trane, American Standard, or something else by customer request. The tech said if you buy an Amana, you'd be pretty safe with that system because of the warranty and lifetime replacement guarantee. This is something I'll have to think about and would appreciate some input on. Put in compressor if the warranty is honored by Payne (which I doubt)? Replace the outside unit with a "cheap" Lennox Merit series R-22 heat pump? Replace both units with Amana (or possibly Trane or American Standard)?

Any brand is good, research the installers. Recommend replacing with a matched system though. Ecm indoor fan motor, scroll compressor, on demand defrost system, outdoor txv, manual reset high head pressure switch.

[RyanHughes]

Thanks Crmont. Any other opinions?

[Shophound]

What was the tech out for on Christmas Eve? Same sound, same problem? Or something different?

[RyanHughes]

To install a new muffler and line dryer. The freon leak was found at the muffler. When the tech came out today, there was charge in the system, so I believe that fixed the leak problem. On Christmas Eve, the tech said the compressor was amping more than it should be, and the compressor could be on its way out or could run like that for a little while. We found that it indeed was on its way out. If we run the compressor anymore it will probably just break for good. Right now it gets scorching hot (according to the tech), over amps, and lets off a terrible grinding noise. It's a shame; the Payne was only from 2004.

At this point I'm trying to determine whether I should match the Lennox now (which would be a 13 SEER R-22 system with no variable speed air handler, which I want) or go with a whole new system which I know will cost me some money. :)

[crmont]

Thanks Crmont. Any other opinions?

oh yeah, two stage also:)

[RyanHughes]

Is it really worth it in Maryland, though? From what I understand the scroll capacity on low stage is as much as 80% of the full capacity. I think a 50% low stage capacity is more attractive, but that would require a reciprocating compressor. I also understand this doesn't necessary save money but provides more comfort.

[arctic pole htg & a/c]

Hey guys, just try what I said before. Change the dual cap. The compressor is going on overload. Simple fix. All the discussions you are having are way off. Fix it with anew cap! try it, cant hurt. Seen a bunch of this. No cooling from the fan!

[RyanHughes]

There is one capacitor for the fan and compressor; it was changed within the past month or so. The compressor is overloading probably because of the mismatch and wear and tear. The compressor is also getting extremely hot according to the tech. I appreciate the input but am not sure that is what's causing the problem.

[beenthere]

Is it really worth it in Maryland, though?


Its worth it in PA.

We use the York Affinity. It uses the scroll. Everyone we put in. The people are far more comfortable in both summer and winter.
And no one has ever expressed buyers remorse.
Most brands have 2 stage. So you have a wide choice.

[RyanHughes]

Is the capacity on low stage 67% or 80% with a scroll compressor? Thanks.

[beenthere]

The YZE03611, in second stage at 95 OD and 75 ID temp with 1200 CFM has a Total cap of 31,900, and at 800 CFM a total cap of 22,600. So 70% at that Design.

Those numbers are from the York tech guide CD.

That unit gets a 15.9 SEER, and 12.5 EER with a VS blower, and 048 evap coil.

[Kevin O'Neill]

67% with the scroll on low stage.

Ryan, you have been having trouble for a long time. It seems that you would do well to get a matched system, with a load calc first. I would not use your prior contractors, they did you no favors with their mismatching.

Good luck.

[RyanHughes]

Thanks Beenthere.

Mr. O'Neill,

I have definitely lost all hope in the mismatching contractor. Since you are a Lennox dealer I understand, is it still possible to and would you recommend matching my existing CB26UH-042-R (2006 model) with a 13HPD or HP13? The only downside to this is that the system would not have a variable speed blower and would use R-22 rather than R-410a. I have heard the Lennox Merit line called "cheap" as well.

[Kevin O'Neill]

Ryan,

Only the 3.5 ton HP13 or 13 HPD will match your existing air handler. Before I recommended anything I would want an accurate load calculation done. Then there will be enough information to make a choice. By the way, you should also get your air flow measured. If you have low air flow, your system will not perform right. There is more than the equipment involved here.

Kevin

[icyflame]

The noise I heard sounded like a scroll compressor runniing backwards, or a scroll compressor pumping liquid.

[RyanHughes]

I think the noise was from the compressor being overloaded (see page 2 post with what the tech wrote).

[Kevin O'Neill]

The noise I heard sounded like a scroll compressor runniing backwards, or a scroll compressor pumping liquid.

I agree.

[Airmechanical]

well i there are a bunch of things i would do over there as a tech

but being that this is a residential forum i wont mention them!

but first it would be in your best interest to get a matching system!



.

[crmont]

Hey guys, just try what I said before. Change the dual cap. The compressor is going on overload. Simple fix. All the discussions you are having are way off. Fix it with anew cap! try it, cant hurt. Seen a bunch of this. No cooling from the fan!


If the cap is bad the compressor won't even start and it's in heating mode so it would just freeze up if the OFM wasn't turning.

[RyanHughes]

In your honest opinion, was it the low level (or lack of) freon and the capacitor causing the compressor to toggle rapidly or the system being mismatched for a mere 6 months or so what caused the compressor to need to be replaced? It could have been both I'm sure. The company ordered a new compressor under warranty (surprisingly) from Payne. I'm still pondering the idea of just replacing everything, but that's a large price difference while I have other home renovations coming up (these units are basically new with the Payne from 2004 and the Lennox installed this past summer). I'll await further responses before I make my final decision. Remember, I have a 13 SEER Lennox air handler going with a 10 SEER Payne. This really shouldn't be a detrimental match should it? It's not a 13 SEER heat pump with a 10 SEER air handler.

All of your comments and suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks to all who have helped.

[catmanacman]

put the cost of compressor replacement on a new lennox hp and add a txv you will not have a high end system but is still a good system and if setup properly with proper airflow it should work fine .

[meoff]

from the movie picture, you will see that the fan is turning backwards due to the blade angle, and too slow, and the compressor is sounding like it does not have that full power. All this = bad dual capacitor.

I also thought it looked like the fan was spinning backwards but was waiting to see if anyone else thought the same with the comment of the camera etc. making it look like it wasn't:confused:

[RyanHughes]

Inside unit has a piston fixed metering device I believe (CB26UH-R series). It is my understanding that this is not good when you have a mismatched system; is this correct? A TXV would be more lenient toward a mismatch, correct?

[crmont]

Inside unit has a piston fixed metering device I believe (CB26UH-R series). It is my understanding that this is not good when you have a mismatched system; is this correct? A TXV would be more lenient toward a mismatch, correct?

You need at the very least an indoor expansion valve. You must THEN charge the system for proper operation IN HEATING MODE. Then adjust the COOLING fan speed and superheat for proper operation IN COOLING MODE.

Summary;

1)Install compressor, filter dryers, indoor TXV

2)Weigh in charge then add necessary charge for proper HEATING performance.

3)(If necessary) Adjust superheat and/or COOLING fan speed for proper COOLING operation. (namely a cool running compressor) Resist adjusting the charge here because the metering device for heating is FIXED and is adjusted by the charge level and proper heating CFM. The superheat adjustment in cooling mode is made at the indoor coil TXV. Proper adjustment is made for efficiency but mostly to keep the compressor cool while in the cooling mode.

(May have to come back in summer to make cooling adjustments.)

For more info check your other post that I have answered.:)

p.s. 21 years heat pump experience.

[RyanHughes]

Crmont, thanks for this handful of helpful information. I'll have to reread it tomorrow and absorb it as right now I'm about ready to go to bed. It sounds like you've seen this situation before. Is it likely that the charge will need to be adjusted twice a year with this mismatch? What would happen if there was no indoor TXV? I was told nothing about a TXV inside; this is just what came to my mind after trolling the forums and hearing about TXV's. Thanks again.

[crmont]

Crmont, thanks for this handful of helpful information. I'll have to reread it tomorrow and absorb it as right now I'm about ready to go to bed. It sounds like you've seen this situation before. Is it likely that the charge will need to be adjusted twice a year with this mismatch? What would happen if there was no indoor TXV? I was told nothing about a TXV inside; this is just what came to my mind after trolling the forums and hearing about TXV's. Thanks again.

Ryan I've told you twice before this latest post about the importance of TXV's on YOUR (specific--->YOUR) mismached system. I hope you got the idea FROM ME.:rolleyes:

The charge will not have to be adjusted seasonally once properly charged/adjusted.

If you don't at least install a indoor TXV you will end up with EXACTLY the same system that only lasted 3-4 years.:confused:

[RyanHughes]

I think this makes sense. I should ask for a TXV to be installed. Otherwise, the refrigerant flow is fixed to match a Lennox outside, right?

[lra]

I certainly agree w/ the TXV statement. The others I'm not so sure. I had a system do exactly what you are describing.. last week. It turns out the indoor fan motor was intermittantly dropping out. This caused : Very high head, loud compressor, open pressure relief, high amp draw (when IPR was closed), and a VERY hot discharge line, liquid line, and vapor line.

[crmont]

I certainly agree w/ the TXV statement. The others I'm not so sure. I had a system do exactly what you are describing.. last week. It turns out the indoor fan motor was intermittantly dropping out. This caused : Very high head, loud compressor, open pressure relief, high amp draw (when IPR was closed), and a VERY hot discharge line, liquid line, and vapor line.

I would hope the on site tech could figure this much out.

I have posted this very point but no one seemed to reference it. It's a little frustrating. New threads get opened and the same material gets re hashed. There is a lot of waisted time typing and not much actual troubleshooting.

People need to read the posts from the top.

Face it, we are at the mercy of the on site technician passing along details through the homeowner.

[crmont]

I think this makes sense. I should ask for a TXV to be installed. Otherwise, the refrigerant flow is fixed to match a Lennox outside, right?

Ryan you keep asking me the same questions. Please read my posts (and dupelicate threads). You don't really need to understand every detail involved with refrigeration unless you are going to fix it yourself. Good luck.

[marvin]

"Ryan you keep asking me the same questions. Please read my posts (and dupelicate threads). You don't really need to understand every detail involved with refrigeration unless you are going to fix it yourself. Good luck."


your head must be getting sore by know the way you
keep banging it against the same wall

[geodude]

Maybe he slept at a holiday inn express last night? Buy a matched system with a warranty.

[crmont]

Maybe he slept at a holiday inn express last night? Buy a matched system with a warranty.

Haha, even overdone it's still a little funny...

Hey geodude.. Fellow Oregonian technician here. Ever had any dealings with a duct cleaning company called "Proven Air"?

[geodude]

crmont, yes I have, have you?

[geodude]

In what part of oregon are located?

[RyanHughes]

Compressor was ordered under warranty by the company I have a FSA with. I wanted to know info about the TXV because they did not mention anything about a TXV and it sounds like I need one. I'd love to get a matched system right now, but right now I have other things that I need to pay for (new kitchen, etc.). If this can get me by another few years then that will be a better time for me to replace everything. Besides, they're relatively new units anyway. Thanks for all of the help. Ryan

[crmont]

crmont, yes I have, have you?

Yesterday I went on a service call where Proven air had cleaned the ducts. The techinician who cleaned the ducts put 1/8" cotton batting inside all of the floor registers and called them filters. He said that they do it on all of their jobs. Anyway it toasted the compressor on a hp-19 that I have been servicing over the years. It really pissed me off because it was such a great running unit. The customer had always replaced her filter. The cotton batting acted like cardboard. I bet 95% of the air was restricted. No HP switch. It did have a discharge line limit switch but it ran two months before it finally burnt up the windings. I calld Proven Air but got such a run around. They would listen to me but would not let me talk to the head technician or the owner. Pardon my rant but I am really upset with Proven Air. Possibly someone here knows someone....

[crmont]

Compressor was ordered under warranty by the company I have a FSA with. I wanted to know info about the TXV because they did not mention anything about a TXV and it sounds like I need one. I'd love to get a matched system right now, but right now I have other things that I need to pay for (new kitchen, etc.). If this can get me by another few years then that will be a better time for me to replace everything. Besides, they're relatively new units anyway. Thanks for all of the help. Ryan

That compressor could be warrantied by any heating company. Unless they are covering the labor you might consider other companies. That compressor should last 20 years if installed correctly. Good luck.

[crmont]

In what part of oregon are located?

Eugene area. You?

[geodude]

East of salem in Lyons, My friend!

[crmont]

East of salem in Lyons, My friend!

Hm.. Gonna have to google that one. Check my previous post.

[geodude]

We have been behind that company quite a few times. We have also seen the same thing. They were the cheapest price according to the home owner. We caught the register filter thing as we came right behind them to replace the furnace after they were done. They also sold the home owner a 16X20X1 allergy filter with the foam core with mesh on both sides! :eek: After we removed them the home owner called the duct cleaning company, but they would not respond!:mad:

[crmont]

We have been behind that company quite a few times. We have also seen the same thing. They were the cheapest price according to the home owner. We caught the register filter thing as we came right behind them to replace the furnace after they were done. They also sold the home owner a 16X20X1 allergy filter with the foam core with mesh on both sides! :eek: After we removed them the home owner called the duct cleaning company, but they would not respond!:mad:

Yeah my home owner said they tried to put somthing in her filter section also. This company must be stopped from doing this. Why why why do they screw with the filters and registers? This is complete BS.:mad::mad:

[geodude]

Maybe they are trying to sell them add ons to make up for being the lowest bidder!:rolleyes: Hopefully they don't crack someones heat exchanger and kill them:eek: maybe they should be selling carbon monoxide detectors!!

[meoff]

I agree.

X2

[u2scsi]

Understanding that I am not a professional, I did want to let you guys know of my similar experience with my cooling system. If you check my other threads, my compressor began making a similar grinding noise as this poster shortly after fixing a leak, evac and recharging the system. My grinding noise gradually got worse over the summer months and was extremely loud by late November. All I was told by the service tech was an internal problem developed and the only solution would be to replace the compressor or entire condensor unit. I spoke with some friends of mine who did HVAC in the building I work at, and they all agreed that a metallic grinding sound is the result of lack of oil. Since there is no easy way to measure oil level in the compressor and I had no sightglass, he and I agreed that this would purely be experimental on our part and what happens happens. So, he evaced the system, and helped me add 6 ounces of a Texaco-branded R22 oil. Arbitrary amount, absolutely. Risk of oil-slugging the compressor, yes. Guess what. After everything was restored, not only was she quiet again, but the amps returned to normal. Have we extended the life, only time will tell...

[RyanHughes]

U2scsi thank you for your input. It could be a number of things; it could be a lack of oil, it could be the compressor spinning backwards, it could be dead, etc. I'm getting a new compressor under warranty anyway. I know many of you are probably thinking "cheap way out," but if you look at my situation, we are looking at units that are not old at all (the heat pump was installed 3-4 years ago and the air handler was install this past summer), and I can't replace them both at this time. Down the road, I will. If this "bandaid" can last me another few years or so, I'll be happy and willing to replace everything. If you're wondering why I had ever mismatched in the first place, it's because I paid a so-called "professional" to offer me a professional solution. I am no longer using this company. I thank you all on this forum for the advice and support you've provided.