Niagra: R2 vs Ax

[gadgetnut]

We have several vendors of Tridium each using thier branded version. The specifications doe not explicitly require the Ax version, althought stating the most current software version to be provided. I am having a conflict with a vendor suppling R2 equipment. I am curious if I should be pressing this harder from the technical capability of the two versions and future compatibility? How long will R2 be sold/supported?

[freddy-b]

I'll put it this way. Would you buy a 10 year old Volkswagen for the same price as a brand new BMW. I doubt it.

Freddy

[gnomethang]

Nothing wrong with R2 but as Freddy said, it is an older release, is not directly compatible with Ax, and most vendors are providing Ax. That'll be the way forward.

[misternorth79]

I think the only drawback I would see is the potential for additional cost to integrate R2 into AX. The only two solutions to bridge the systems together is to have an Obix driver in both the R2 and AX systems, or integrate everything using BACnet. I haven't worked with Obix to know if the integration between R2 and AX is bulletproof or not ; but BACnet works okay for sharing data points (may be slower depending on the amount of exported points).

From a standpoint of ease, I would recommend asking the vendor to use AX if at all possible (just make sure there are no surprises in NiCS). You could then simply use the Niagara Network to share all the information.

Is the vendor providing Vykon or a third-party branded solution? It's possible that they could be using a third-party control solution that does not offer AX (such as Carrier).

As for how long R2 will be supported, I think R2 is starting to see its twilight already. With increasing cost for any R2 equipment, plus the majority of the Niagara Community now using AX, I could see Tridium discontinuing it within the next 12-24 months (not very gratifying for a new install).

[MDaly]

I am currently using the OBix driver to bridge the R2 into the AX. I am having no issues. However All programing must be done in the R2. The AX will have read and override abilities but can not write to the R2 points. This is because the R2 can only be a OBix server with no client capabilities.
As far as to use or not to use R2 really depends on the field bus and system being used. AX offers LON and BACnet. Some companies have created their own drivers available for MODbus and N2.
R2 as a large amount of drivers available to be licensed. R2 is still a great solution for a customer to migrate their existing system forward with the ability to upgrade in the future while still befitting from the prior investment. This also helps burden the cost of a complete system upgrade.
AX is the System you want for your server with a mixed R2 and AX system. And the newer Jaces can be upgraded to AX as well when the time comes.

[gadgetnut]

Thanks to everyone for the information. This has comfirmed for me the need to press this issue. I have felt that this has not provided a competitive bid or best product installation!

[tlp261]

The vendor will probably argue that they are giving you the latest version of R2 and that AX is a separate product, not a new version. Technically they'd be right.

[freddy-b]

Does this Vendor affiliated with TAC? What field devices? If so, here is the game they are playing around here anyway. They will try to force R2 down your throat if the spec does not specify AX Niagara. They are gearing up for the new TAC stuff to try to play at the same level as AX. The last thing they want to do is put in a nice modern and open system when they can sell you a proprietary setup in a few years and lock you down for a long time.


Freddy

[codewriter]

The vendor will probably argue that they are giving you the latest version of R2 and that AX is a separate product, not a new version. Technically they'd be right.

Not really, they would be getting Rev 2 and not Rev 3 of NIAGARA...:)
(just had to say it) :)

[Hamma]

Sorry to jump in on this thread but, have any of you been to Tridium schools and were they useful or not?

[MDaly]

I have been to the R2 engineering class that Invensys hosted. I have been using AX now for six months and Attended a Honeywell Spyder class which helped complete in the transition from R2 to AX. I found both classes a great way to fill in where the documentation was lacking. I had been using R2 and AX on jobs in both instances before attending the classes. I would suggest this strategy to everyone. The instructors move quickly through the material and can leave a Niagara newbie behind in a flash.

[ab8349]

AX is the System you want for your server with a mixed R2 and AX system. And the newer Jaces can be upgraded to AX as well when the time comes.

So if I have a current R2 system, I can upgrade to an AX server and have a mixed R2 and AX system?

I'm kind of in the same boat as the OP, our campus has 16 Trane BCUs, 1 NAE, and 10 JACEs all communicating back to a R2 server. The BCUs and NAE are communicating to the Tridium server through BACnet over IP, enabling us to serve up graphics from the server seamlessly throughout all of the systems.

We just purchased Itron energy management software which will use a gateway to poll data from the Tridium server. I want to force my Tridium vendor (Yamas, now t.a.c) to provide AX on new jobs, which there are going to be a lot of on campus. But what does that mean to my existing server and configuration?

[Hamma]

I have been to the R2 engineering class that Invensys hosted. I have been using AX now for six months and Attended a Honeywell Spyder class which helped complete in the transition from R2 to AX. I found both classes a great way to fill in where the documentation was lacking. I had been using R2 and AX on jobs in both instances before attending the classes. I would suggest this strategy to everyone. The instructors move quickly through the material and can leave a Niagara newbie behind in a flash.

Thanks for your advice.

[MDaly]

You can Mix AX and R2 by using BACnet or OBix. OBix has some short comings though, like I mentioned earlier the R2 Jaces or UNC can only use the OBix server service. This means the R2 can only send data to, not receive it from any AX devices. If you use the BACnet service to communicate between AX and R2 you can read and write at both the R2 and AX level. The draw back is you have to pay extra for the BACnet points used.

What field bus are you running under the 10 Jaces?
What Jaces do you have? Only the new Jaces can be upgraded to AX.
Is your server performing any programing or is it just a GUI server?
What is it you feel your lacking from your R2 system and will AX give what you need?

There is a lot of work to change a system over from R2 to AX. All your graphics will need to be recreated, and if you upgrade your Jaces they will all need to be reprogrammed. This all takes time and we know what time equals.

Yes AX IMO is a better system which make handling and moving data more simple. There are allot of enhanced and upgraded features that AX has to offer, and when the next Niagara rev comes out it will still be a great system just like R2 is.

My point is you really need to understand how your BAS functions and know what you want from it before you make the decision to upgrade. Maybe instead of upgrading and by staying with R2 you can get that new chiller or boiler you've need.:D

[freddy-b]

Maybe instead of upgrading and by staying with R2 you can get that new chiller or boiler you've need.:D

How do you come up with that?

[checkvalve]

R2 only functions as an obix server not a client. An Ax station can function as both an obix server and client.

The R2 obix.jar file contains obix export points (analog, boolean and multistate) which allow logic in an Ax station to be linked to R2 export points via obix. This is a partial client implementation for R2. So you don't have to use bacnet IP just because you want to use control logic in the Ax station to do something in the R2 station.

There is no way to upgrade an existing embedded (windriver vx works os) jace controller from R2 to Ax (qnx os). It would require replacing the hardware.

There are several ways to migrate from R2 to Ax. The path is really dependent on how your current R2 system is designed, specifically where the graphics are served from and where/what logs are stored.

To minimize the initial expense it may be best to use a hybrid system where you have both an R2 and an Ax server. It can be setup where that is transparent to the end user by simply making hyperlinks to the old server if necessary. If the graphics are being served from the jace level and the R2 server is just used as a navigation starting point and history archive, then it is pretty simple to just shift archiving to an Ax server via obix and continue to use the existing r2 jace graphics.

[MDaly]

I was joking, however upgrading and reprogramming 10 jaces. AX server Programing, creating graphics, all you histories and alarms. not to throw in the contractors mark up. Your looking at the price of a chiller or boiler.:eek:

[MDaly]

R2 only functions as an obix server not a client. An Ax station can function as both an obix server and client.

The R2 obix.jar file contains obix export points (analog, boolean and multistate) which allow logic in an Ax station to be linked to R2 export points via obix. This is a partial client implementation for R2. So you don't have to use bacnet IP just because you want to use control logic in the Ax station to do something in the R2 station.


I was having problems with this. I could not get the R2 to see the change.


There is no way to upgrade an existing embedded (windriver vx works os) jace controller from R2 to Ax (qnx os). It would require replacing the hardware.

A new Jace can be sent back to the factory and upgraded for AX, However the older one have to be replaced. This does save some cost.


There are several ways to migrate from R2 to Ax. The path is really dependent on how your current R2 system is designed, specifically where the graphics are served from and where/what logs are stored.

To minimize the initial expense it may be best to use a hybrid system where you have both an R2 and an Ax server. It can be setup where that is transparent to the end user by simply making hyperlinks to the old server if necessary. If the graphics are being served from the jace level and the R2 server is just used as a navigation starting point and history archive, then it is pretty simple to just shift archiving to an Ax server via obix and continue to use the existing r2 jace graphics.

This will work but it is dependent on two separate server machines, Since AX and R2 can't run on the same server at the same time. This is a great way to help the down time though of the migration.

[checkvalve]

I was having problems with this. I could not get the R2 to see the change.


I have done this many times and without any problems.



A new Jace can be sent back to the factory and upgraded for AX, However the older one have to be replaced. This does save some cost.


What information do you have regarding being able to upgrade a R2 jace4/5 to work with the Ax version?

[MDaly]

When I worked for an Invensys IFO back in 2006. It was offered as an upgrade if only the UNC was a 520 or 420. The UNC had to be sent back to Invensys for the hardware upgrade. I'm checking to see if the new vendor I work fro offers the same service. I know at the time Invensys was manufacturing the UNC out of the Rockford plant, so maybe it was only a Invensys thing.

I always thought that it was a chip change out. I have a Couple of R2s on my desk right now next time I get an AX Jace I'm going to do a close inspection just to see what has changed hardware wise. I know the CB looks identical with the chip placement and all.

I curious to see what my new vendor has to say though.

[freddy-b]

I was joking, however upgrading and reprogramming 10 jaces. AX server Programing, creating graphics, all you histories and alarms. not to throw in the contractors mark up. Your looking at the price of a chiller or boiler.:eek:

I really need to know where you buy your chillers and boilers!:)

Actually, it goes pretty seemless. If you do your homework before you convert.

Freddy

[CONTROL SALES]

Checkvalve, I want to replace an R2 with an AX Jace 4. How do I save and convert the R2 data base and graphics?

[ctremblay]

You can't do that... TThe AX is totally different from the R2, so you'll have to rebuild everything.

[checkvalve]

ctremblay is correct. There is nothing available to convert an r2 database to ax format. You could use the same graphics images, but you would still need to create new px files as well.