Joist bay returns lead paint to my family

[ductaped]

During a recent inspection of my renovated townhouse I came upon a return that I believe will return a loss versus gain for my home and family. The duct system within the home is entirely new, yet old ways of installation are being used.

One in particular is the vernacular joist bay plenum. For my 4' return two joist bays are used. The problem is that these 75 year old joists have remnants of lead paint on them, which will surely slam my filter and possibly make it through to the air my family breathes.

In addition, the work is full of holes. I could not run a private pressure test on the system because of this. There was limited tape on the joints, (none at the return at all) and the tape that was there was not even UL-181.

The truth is a plenum will never be sealed correctly like a metal, sealed ducted return. And the lead paint issue is a clear problem. Yet, I was never in on that discussion of the application. I know the deal on ways and means with contractors, but this area is rife with concerns.

Now, I am being charged a hefty fee for my contractor to remove the plenum and hard duct the return. Can you believe that? And the lead paint argument went without sympathy. What should I do?

[RoBoTeq]

Why in the world would lead paint be left during renovation? How old is your house and why are your joists painted?

Return ducting within the conditioned area is just a way for air being moved into the conditioned are to "return" to the blower.

Unless your contractor was informed of the lead issue and told to stay away from using standard return methods of ducting, you should be responsible for changing the system.

[ductaped]

Every house that is over 25 years old has lead paint in it.
They never looked.
Never offered.
Never thought.
And there is the problem.
It is the 21st century.
HVAC guys must adapt to consumer needs.
Christ, do you guys ever admit that you made a mistake?
Take the ****ing blame for once and keep a customer.

[RoBoTeq]

I just realized you are the same person whining about R22 on another thread.

You keep stating it is the 21st century. In that mindset, why did you not do your homework before you contracted the work? You obviously know how to use the Internet for whining. Why did you not use it for learning beforehand? It is the 21st century you know. There is no reason for you to be so 20th century in your not taking responsibility for your ignorance of the system that you contracted for.

[ductaped]

I relied on professionals.
They failed me.
And after XXXXk I have a right to be angry.

[RoBoTeq]

I relied on professionals.
They failed me.
And after 50k I have a right to be angry.

Whatever. If angry is what you want to be, go for it. So far you have not submited anything that we as professionals consider to be an issue.

If you did not specify particulars such as the desire for R410a refrigerant of to stay away from lead paint that you did not see fit to have removed, then your contractor did not fail you, you failed you.

[ductaped]

Ok.
I see.
There is no problem with lead paint nor R22.

Perhaps too much exposure to both has led you to your remarks.

Can you pose a solution versus a defense?

[RoBoTeq]

Ok.
I see.
There is no problem with lead paint nor R22.

Perhaps too much exposure to both has led you to your remarks.

Can you pose a solution versus a defense?

No, you don't see anything because you only want to complain. Since the lead paint issue was not addressed before the installation, the solution is for you to pay to have the return ducting changed.

R22 is still a very commonly used and perfectly acceptable refrigerant, so, if you want your systems changed to R410a systems then you need to pay for that change.

If you are so concerned with the environment and your health, why on earth did you not address these concerns before the work was done?

[ductaped]

Do me a favour Rototeq, if you can't provide a solution then do not respond.

How come you tough guys have such thin 22gauge skins?

[RoBoTeq]

Do me a favour Rototeq, if you can't provide a solution then do not respond.

How come you tough guys have such thin 22gauge skins?

I have given you solutions that you are ignoring because they require you to take some responsibility for the situation you perceive you have.

The lead paint would need to become airbourne in order to work back to the air filter. Again, if you are this concerned, why did you not do something about the lead source? Again, if you are concerned about lead, you need to take the responsibility for having it removed and/or not have it exposed to your family.

If you don't like the responses you get here, don't consider them, but don't come here and tell us who can and cannot address your posts.

And just so you don't continue to be ignorant of another factor, we in the HVAC industry consider 22 gauge to be rather heavy for skin. I have no idea what you are referring to with this comment, but I am considered one of the most thick skinned members of this site.

[amickracing]

No one can help you here... None of us did the work, none of us gave you any input to what to get before you bought it. None of us told you who to choose, or made the phone call to the guys who did the work.

As far as the 410 vs 22 issue. Yes, 410 is a lil more friendly to the environment but believe me, that 8# of R22 you have isn't going to kill it either. I'm not saying we shouldn't all make an effort... but the world isn't going to stop by using some more 22 units.

Around here, I'm sure there are lead painted houses... When ever I installed equipment, we never gave it a second thought unless the customer pointed it out.

As a HVAC contractor, there's no way anyone would ever buy anything from us if we went in, tested all your paint, checked your insulation for asbestos, spent hours upon hours teaching the home owners everything we know about a certain line of product, walked through every small detail of how we'd do the job etc.

In fact, if we told a customer it's going to cost and extra $2k for us to test your house for paint and asbestos, we'd be called crooks yet again.

Panning in the returns, well, it's not a fool proof way. There is a likely hood of some holes that can't be sealed easily, and a few other small issues (your painted joists being a rare issue I've never heard of but here). But, if you wanted everything hard ducted with a 2% leakage test done afterwards, you should have specified that when you had it done. And likely there would be a huge price difference too.

There's nothing wrong with being educated about your money that you are spending. But demanding a bunch of stuff after it's done, and suddenly having issues like lead paint that weren't pointed out... I'd say it kinda falls back on you.

Perhaps you can have them rip the panning out, then you can have the joists painted with some sort of sealer and then reseal the space up? About sealing the holes, perhaps some spray foam or mastic might do the trick, I can't see it from here though.

We can't discuss pricing here, but if you paid $50k, I'm very sure that wasn't the hvac system, that was likely the whole project. And for that price, it's likely a small portion of that was hvac... you get what you pay for most times.

For the system you wanted, done the way you wanted, with all of the tests that are rarely if ever done by hvac guys, that $50k would have been just for the HVAC system.

[karsthuntr]

edited :robo didn't want to open a can of worms

[RoBoTeq]

[QUOTE=karsthuntr;1682919]Edited to keep this thread from flooding due to more tears.

[karsthuntr]

I was avoiding opening up this can of worms. Let the whining about being taken advantage of begin again:rolleyes:
I made it better. :D

[RoBoTeq]

I made it better. :D

Knowing that people working on their homes actually need to make a profit seems to irk some consumers. It's best to let them think no one makes a profit from them.

Heaven forbid you rotten contractors ever find out those of us who sell you equipment and supplies make a living off of you by actually making something on the products you buy from us.

[mark beiser]

Heaven forbid you rotten contractors ever find out those of us who sell you equipment and supplies make a living off of you by actually making something on the products you buy from us.

That doesn't bother me, what irks me is that often the supplier is making the same $ amount selling 1 piece of equipment to a small low volume contractor as they do selling 5-10 pieces of equipment to a large high volume contractor.

we've actually had a couple of large contractors offer to sell us equipment for cost+10%, which worked out to be 10-30% less, depending on the item, than it cost us to buy it from the same place they do. :mad:

[RoBoTeq]

That doesn't bother me, what irks me is that often the supplier is making the same $ amount selling 1 piece of equipment to a small low volume contractor as they do selling 5-10 pieces of equipment to a large high volume contractor.

we've actually had a couple of large contractors offer to sell us equipment for cost+10%, which worked out to be 10-30% less, depending on the item, than it cost us to buy it from the same place they do. :mad:

Your equipment supplier just doesn't like you. There is no way I have that much mark up in equipment I sell.

[mark beiser]

Your equipment supplier just doesn't like you. There is no way I have that much mark up in equipment I sell.

Goodmana isn't near as bad about it as the blue oval, Dave, and the orange compressor guys...
Dave uses no lube!:eek:

[HeyBob]

You're correct. Glad he isn't my customer.

[chucko615]

I'm just wondering about the rest of those lead painted floor joist, are you having the lead paint abated? I didn't see you mention it.

[beenthere]

Why is everything thats wrong with YOUR house, someone elses fault. You bought the place.

Or did the realestate agent dupe you too.

[tinknocker service tech]

if it wasnt in the contract to run rigit ducts for the return the YES you need to pay for the up drade, This is the way it is and you know it,

now just for the record since lead is you concern
walking on the floors can loosen it is some cases and just from infiltration and the air blowing arround can expose you to if.

lead solder used on you water lines can also expose you and you need to let the water run for a few seconds before filling anything

why didnt you have the lead paint taken care of
why are you just pissed at the one contractor and not all of them
why was this knowtise before the heating guy got started

and most importantly IMO since you knew there was lead paint and the possibility of lead exposeure from the beams the hvac contractor had to work with and arround and be EXPOSED to at a higher level then your family will ever be didnt you warn him of the potential health hazard so he could take precausions to minamize his EXPOSURE

you knew it was there and it didnt matter then now it does WTF

[voleye]

Im confused. Did you know the lead paint was there before the HVAC work was done? And what are you as a homeowner going to do about the rest of the painted joists that are not inside the panning?

I beg to differ that everyhouse over 25 years old has lead paint.

[hvac hero]

After reading both of the threads from this guy, I think all of this couldnt of happened to a better person. Thank the good Lord he isnt my customer. In the other thread he is complaining about paying 3 times too much for a job, yet he is dumb enough to sign the contract. This guy is the type who is not happy unless he can find some kind of conspiracy. If he cant find one, then lets make one up. And then he's gonna say "we're all to blame" for this. What he was wanting was for him to be able to come here & vent. And we'll just be at his disposal offering up apologies for the whole industry. What a joke.

[HeyBob]

why are you just pissed at the one contractor and not all of them





Tin,

because he probably has threads at

www.myplumbers-talk.com

www.electricians-talk.com

www.mybuildersucks.com

Also!

[charliebear]

Im confused. Did you know the lead paint was there before the HVAC work was done? And what are you as a homeowner going to do about the rest of the painted joists that are not inside the panning?

I beg to differ that everyhouse over 25 years old has lead paint.

In 1978 lead paint was banned for residential. (29 years ago) The current HUD forms for selling a house require a lead paint disclosure if the house is pre-1978. (disclosure is merely a notice that it was constructed pre-1978 and lead paint MAY be present) Theoretically, any house built 1978 or later has no lead paint, but this doesn't take into account those folks who had extra stock laying around and decided to use it. However, who painted their joists back in the day? Why would you paint joists instead of covering them with drywall, etc? And why would you paint joists that were to be used as a return (i.e. joists that were to be covered to create a plenum?

[bmathews]

We've all had customers like him. The HVAC guy got stuck doing the job because it was his builder that did the work. These are the ones you bid high because you know it is going to be a pain in the arse. He's some know it all that tells you all about your job and when you correct him, he rolls his eyes and tells you you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about. He was the guy that got the poop kicked out of him in high school everyday. Ignore the guy, he'll go away. I'll almost bet he's married to some overweight domineering woman that rides his arse, he has to find someplace to take it out, what better than anonymously over the net?

[ductaped]

No one can help you here... None of us did the work, none of us gave you any input to what to get before you bought it. None of us told you who to choose, or made the phone call to the guys who did the work.

As far as the 410 vs 22 issue. Yes, 410 is a lil more friendly to the environment but believe me, that 8# of R22 you have isn't going to kill it either. I'm not saying we shouldn't all make an effort... but the world isn't going to stop by using some more 22 units.

Around here, I'm sure there are lead painted houses... When ever I installed equipment, we never gave it a second thought unless the customer pointed it out.

As a HVAC contractor, there's no way anyone would ever buy anything from us if we went in, tested all your paint, checked your insulation for asbestos, spent hours upon hours teaching the home owners everything we know about a certain line of product, walked through every small detail of how we'd do the job etc.

In fact, if we told a customer it's going to cost and extra $2k for us to test your house for paint and asbestos, we'd be called crooks yet again.

Panning in the returns, well, it's not a fool proof way. There is a likely hood of some holes that can't be sealed easily, and a few other small issues (your painted joists being a rare issue I've never heard of but here). But, if you wanted everything hard ducted with a 2% leakage test done afterwards, you should have specified that when you had it done. And likely there would be a huge price difference too.

There's nothing wrong with being educated about your money that you are spending. But demanding a bunch of stuff after it's done, and suddenly having issues like lead paint that weren't pointed out... I'd say it kinda falls back on you.

Perhaps you can have them rip the panning out, then you can have the joists painted with some sort of sealer and then reseal the space up? About sealing the holes, perhaps some spray foam or mastic might do the trick, I can't see it from here though.

We can't discuss pricing here, but if you paid $50k, I'm very sure that wasn't the hvac system, that was likely the whole project. And for that price, it's likely a small portion of that was hvac... you get what you pay for most times.

For the system you wanted, done the way you wanted, with all of the tests that are rarely if ever done by hvac guys, that $50k would have been just for the HVAC system.

[The 50k+ was only for the HVAC system. [/B]

[ductaped]

The house is over 75 years old.
I had no control over the people that owned it before me.
And the lead paint is obviously on the joists.
Lord knows why they painted them in the basement.
If were to have been notified of joist panning ahead of time, I would have asked them to hard duct it instead. But, I was kept in the dark.

[trey r]

If you paid that, what exactly did they install? Did you have the floor joist tested for lead paint? Why are the joist painted in the first place?

From what I gather you are a whinny little homeowner who wants something for nothing. You would never pay to have a high efficiency system installed and pressure tested. So you either got screwed on your price or your a liar. I'm leaning towards #2.

[trey r]

Can't you guys solve a problem versus skirting it?


I can tell you how to solve your problem drop IT!

From what I hear you have no real issues.

[dngtig]

Can't you guys solve a problem versus skirting it?

The only ones who can solve your problem are you and your contractor. We weren't involved in any of it. What you are looking for is for us to agree with you so that you can go back to your contractor with some ammo. You need to sit down with the parties involved and discuss the issues you have.
How is the contractor suppose to know if the paint is lead or not? If you knew about these hazards in your house I would hope you told me before I start disrupting any of it.
If you paid 50K for hvac without getting more than one estimate you my friend are a fool.

[HeyBob]

This has run it's course. To the OP, talk to your GC.

CLOSED!