Please Help A.s.a.p Dont want to over bid!!

[efficientmech]

Hello.I am new to the site.We are a licensed mechanical contractor located in the northeastern part of the US. Most of our work has been residential and what we consider light commercial (12.5 ton and under). In the past 6 months we have started working for a real estate tycoon. Basically he keeps us busy 8 days a week, and with the amount of shopping centers and multi-story office buildings he owns, the work is endless as long as we both treat each other right. This new job that has been put on our table will be our largest. We have skilled, knowledgable manpower as well as hard working laborers. The job consists of: one 45 ton HVAC unit, 15 vav's, RTU DDT controller,zone manager control system by F and K, gas fired F.A makeup xxxx. I won't ramble on about all the equipment, those are the more pricier pieces. A few obstacles on labor: the supply and return must penetrate 2 stories down through concrete decks. Hoisting a 7000lb unit 3 stories up and 100 ft in in a downtown setting will obviously not be cheap.Thats just one of the many obstacles of this job. MAterial wise, with crane, manlift rentals (for extra manlift) and all materials including ducts, clamps, screws, you name it, were just over xxxx . I figure I will end up paying my guys in the 4 months I have to complete this xxxx . So here I sit at xxxx before our company makes any money. As we all know, you always think you're going to make X amount,and it turns out to be less, which is fine. I don't want to sound absurd with my bid, but I also don't want to get in a position where we could get hurt. The prices above do not include any overhead for our company, ie. shop, lights, gas for trucks, etc. basic company overhead. I have spoken with a few oldtimers on the commercial end of our trade. They both came in at about xxxx . I apologize if this is not the forum to post this situation, but I'm brand new to the site and was not quite sure where to post it. If anyone with knowledge of bidding a job like this could help us, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[airon]

First congratulations on having a go at it. Sounds like great opportunities await you.

When estimating anything of size I use a few different cost estimators to help cover the unknowns or not sures.
I like to include the overhead into manhours and again as an end or administrative add.
Dont forget to add a labor correction factor for working from 3-5 stories up x 1.05 or whatever. Working in a congested downtown area may have its own unique conditions, parking, transport, lock and key, pedestrian protection etc..
Crane and rigging time includes your mantime as well as any governmental fees. Will you have to block the street for the lift. How will the manlifts and tooling get up 3-5 stories, have the rental company and vendors deliver to the work location not just the general site.
Use your distributors and mfg reps expertise where and when possible after all they stand to profit as well and are more than willing to assist.
Put your markups in the materials or add as a plus % to the bid.
Change orders are your friend so make sure its all spelled out in the beginning any variation can run into serious money wich needs to be recouped in the C/Os.
Its an art and in todays world either get your material prices locked in or insert a protection waiver of some kind.
Dont forget admin costs, estimating, project mngmnt, secretarial etc..
Not that I ever mastered the process of estimating or know anything about it.

Good luck.

PS dont forget the fudge factors all plus a % depending on your confidence.

[skorepeo]

biding is a technical science

first is to start with the last thing done then think backwards to the beginning

break down each part of the project such as electric, mechanical, plumbing, control, computer programming, etc.

bid each individually then combine into one bid add your overhead, expected profit, and contingency percentage.

put in the bid then suggest alternative pricing such as if we use this instead of the specified we can subtract x amount.

think of questions that may come up when giving the proposal and answer them in the proposal.

think of every method to accomplish the same task find what is cheaper to do but take into account sometimes the more expensive is cheaper in the long run.


so helicopter the units versus street shut down crane cost time inconvenience do the home work and no matter what be confident that your price is accurate even if you are high bid back up reasons why like better quality question the competition. I know my prices are higher but they include every contingency so there wont be any change order or requests are you sure company z has done their homework are you sure they can complete the job and on time?

last references and references and references.

[skorepeo]

biding is a technical science

first is to start with the last thing done then think backwards to the beginning

break down each part of the project such as electric, mechanical, plumbing, control, computer programming, etc.

bid each individually then combine into one bid add your overhead, expected profit, and contingency percentage.

put in the bid then suggest alternative pricing such as if we use this instead of the specified we can subtract x amount.

think of questions that may come up when giving the proposal and answer them in the proposal.

think of every method to accomplish the same task find what is cheaper to do but take into account sometimes the more expensive is cheaper in the long run.


so helicopter the units versus street shut down crane cost time inconvenience do the home work and no matter what be confident that your price is accurate even if you are high bid back up reasons why like better quality question the competition. I know my prices are higher but they include every contingency so there wont be any change order or requests are you sure company z has done their homework are you sure they can complete the job and on time?

last references and references and references.

[slimwoodie]

downtown ..??

i'd add 30% to my labor cost ..

[y7turbo]

downtown ..??

i'd add 30% to my labor cost ..

labor cost? add 30% just to cover parking!

[efficientmech]

Getting There,we think.Still would love the input.
Thank alot to everyone that has helped.

[justekkin]

I'm new to this site as well. I've been on the net for the last couple of days now looking for some rate guidelines or comparisons or something. Basically, I'm subcontracting for an HVAC company to program their Honeywell LCBS Building Managers and other network controls. I've got a lot of experience with network adminsitration and systems administration, but I've never done it in a HVAC setting like this before. The bid goes in at the end of the day tomorrow I think, and I need to get the mechanical company my programming cost by then. I feel like I'm truly shooting in the dark with no comps available that I can find. Any advice on what won't get laughed out of the park?

Thanks!

[madhat]

If his name is D. J*m*l, run away as fast as you can, before he bankrupts you.

[justekkin]

No, it's not. This is a company that I have a long standing relationship with. I've done their company & personal networks and pc's for years. He's just started into the building automation systems or I'm sure that he could guide me as far as what a fair price range would be. Thanks though! It's always good to know that there are people looking out for eachother and I appreciate that!:o

[ThinkingARB]

efficientmech & justekkin my experience in putting bids together is that your best, 1st guess on actual labor hours is usually pretty close if you are usually a conserative estimator. Meaning that when you are dealing with larger equipment than you are use to or new technology the apprehision you feel causes you to "pad" you number a little. The fact of the matter is as you deal with all of those 1st time evens your "padded" number comes out a lot closer than you originally thought. With experience your estimate will be more inline with the normal but unless you are willing to do the 1st large job at cost for the experience then stick with what you feel comfortable with.

Another piece of advice is win or lose ask what the other bids where after the contract has been awarded. This will allow you base on price what the other contractors where thinking. How you may ask? Well they have to purschase the same material and perhaps subcontractor cost that you do and even if the can get a discount it wont be enough to worry about. The rest would be labor so based on known labor rates you can figure out how long they THINK it will that them to do the job.

justekkin don't be surprised about the price you get from the controls contractor, depending upon how much material, install and programming you're asking them to do it could be as much as $30K per AHU or less if it's just programming of existing equipememt

[justekkin]

I've finally been able to find a few rate quotes specifically for the programming of the controls, which is what I'm responsible for doing/bidding. Surprisingly, from one account rep, and from another completely different distributor, I got the same rate of $110/hour for programming Building Automation. Go figure! I found some national companies as well that I'm still waiting to hear from.

Thanks for the input! I've already found lots of useful info!

[chillersandcontrols]

Efficientmech:

Sounds like you are growing up into new business terrritory! Great - Good Luck!

Just MHO, but it sounds like you would probably benefit from a good CPA with some accounting experience with an HVAC or other Contracting Co.

Don't forget your various insurance and bonds for the job; arrangements with police and city for lifts and permits (most cities have banned helicopter lifts); make sure items installed in building ceilings are plenum-rated. A whole different, larger set of codes applies to Large Metro Commercial Spaces.

If your Real Estate Investor is a legit guy, you both can make a lot of money together. Most of my relationships at this level are smoothest when we discuss expenses, plans and contingencies BEFORE any work starts. Investors hate surprises!

Capital money is easier to get (initial big purchases like buildings and improvements) than having to scramble for budgetary operating funds to cover change orders and unforeseen expenses.

justekkin:

Check with your LCBS distributor/supplier; there is an Excel spreadsheet available to make estimating LCBS a breeze. Honeywell is also having a big push on for the CCES guys out there so they will give you a lot of support. Cheers!

[sarpanch2001]

Hello.I am new to the site.We are a licensed mechanical contractor located in the northeastern part of the US. Most of our work has been residential and what we consider light commercial (12.5 ton and under). In the past 6 months we have started working for a real estate tycoon. Basically he keeps us busy 8 days a week, and with the amount of shopping centers and multi-story office buildings he owns, the work is endless as long as we both treat each other right. This new job that has been put on our table will be our largest. We have skilled, knowledgable manpower as well as hard working laborers. The job consists of: one 45 ton HVAC unit, 15 vav's, RTU DDT controller,zone manager control system by F and K, gas fired F.A makeup xxxx. I won't ramble on about all the equipment, those are the more pricier pieces. A few obstacles on labor: the supply and return must penetrate 2 stories down through concrete decks. Hoisting a 7000lb unit 3 stories up and 100 ft in in a downtown setting will obviously not be cheap.Thats just one of the many obstacles of this job. MAterial wise, with crane, manlift rentals (for extra manlift) and all materials including ducts, clamps, screws, you name it, were just over xxxx . I figure I will end up paying my guys in the 4 months I have to complete this xxxx . So here I sit at xxxx before our company makes any money. As we all know, you always think you're going to make X amount,and it turns out to be less, which is fine. I don't want to sound absurd with my bid, but I also don't want to get in a position where we could get hurt. The prices above do not include any overhead for our company, ie. shop, lights, gas for trucks, etc. basic company overhead. I have spoken with a few oldtimers on the commercial end of our trade. They both came in at about xxxx . I apologize if this is not the forum to post this situation, but I'm brand new to the site and was not quite sure where to post it. If anyone with knowledge of bidding a job like this could help us, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

try to get pro membership in this site they will gave you all #$ send them copy your lic
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=116113

[sarpanch2001]

[QUOTE=justekkin;1671567]I've finally been able to find a few rate quotes specifically for the programming of the controls, which is what I'm responsible for doing/bidding. Surprisingly, from one account rep, and from another completely different distributor, I got the same rate of $110/hour for programming Building Automation. Go figure! I found some national companies as well that I'm still waiting to hear from.

Thanks for the input! I've already found lots of useful info!
Mr admin please do not post what you got quote for it effect bussiness :mad:

[justekkin]

Oops! I just read what I wrote....what I meant when I said I got that amount is that's the quote I received, not the $$ I received...and thanks for the comment. I didn't know not to post that. Thanks!