Polygraphing Job Applicants?

[HVAC Student]

Have you ever encountered a company that gave lie detector tests to job applicants? I graduated trade school last week and a company to which I applied referred me to a background check company in Los Angeles. I filled out a questionnaire complete with admonitions that when the lie detection expert interviewed me he would be able to put me under a polygraph and verify each individual fact on my questionnaire. The polygraph machine could also supposedly detect "unresolved" answers so I had to be completely thorough about everything or I would be barred from employment. I had nothing to hide and after the lie detection guy reviewed my questionnaire with me he didn't actually give me the polygraph, but the process still seemed invasive. What are your thoughts and/or experiences?

[mackinaw]

Seems a little much to me....what is the job?

I hope you ask about advancement, pay raises and working conditions...then ask to verify this with a lie detector test.:D

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by mackinaw
Seems a little much to me....what is the job?It's a residential HVAC and plumbing company. I'm applying to become an apprentice technician.


Originally posted by mackinaw
I hope you ask about advancement, pay raises and working conditions...then ask to verify this with a lie detector test.The company seems pretty concerned with its reputation for honesty and professionalism (hence its alleged need to polygraph people) so I doubt they would make any false promises.

[mackinaw]

so I doubt they would make any false promises.

Yet they are doubting you...I would pass, to many jobs out there to submit to being hooked up. Just my opinion...I don't buy into the "if you have nothing to hide" line. I do believe in a 90 day evaluation period, that should be enough to check out each other and decide if it's a good fit.

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by mackinaw
I don't buy into the "if you have nothing to hide" line.I don't buy it either; I didn't have any criminal convictions or gambling debts in my past and it still felt invasive. The reason I put up with it is because I'm drawn to their 33% commission.


Originally posted by mackinaw
I do believe in a 90 day evaluation period, that should be enough to check out each other and decide if it's a good fit.They have a ninety-day probation period too.

[ZZZRSC]

Mandatory polygraph and drug testing is quite common anymore. As far as I know, no one has ever fought it and won, in regards to new employment requirements.

[mackinaw]

The reason I put up with it is because I'm drawn to their 33% commission.

I feel you paid an equally high personal price. You made a decision to sell some of your personal rights, I hope it pays off. Good luck, I hope you get the job.:)

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by ZZZRSC
Mandatory polygraph and drug testing is quite common anymore. As far as I know, no one has ever fought it and won, in regards to new employment requirements.I don't think polygraphs or drug testing should be illegal, but my experience made me wonder whether it's really necessary without some existing reason to believe a specific person needs to be investigated.

Originally posted by mackinaw
I feel you paid an equally high personal price. You made a decision to sell some of your personal rights, I hope it pays off. Good luck, I hope you get the job.Do you feel I did something unbecoming of a professional by submitting to this test? :(

[wolfstrike]

theres only two purposes of the lie detector.

1) to impress the company that hires the lie detector company

2) to catch applicants that are flat out idiots.

there are many applicants who will state that they will hit a customer or a manager if they get angry.

i've taken the lie detector twice, and it's a good thing they don't keep records because my answers the first time were completly different the second time.


the lie detector will react if you are nervous during a question, they say it ignores nervousness, but that's the only thing it can detect.


both times i went in, i was angry for the questions they were asking me, so i would calmly lie when they were asked.
i got hired at both companies that sent me there.


i felt they had no right to ask me those questions, so it didn't phase me to lie.




i said no to shoplifting, i did when i was about 8, they only ask for 5 years back

i said no to smoking pot, which i've done

i said no to carrying a loaded weapon illegally, which i've done many times.



they called me back a second time because they found my expunged record, other then that, i was hired at both companies and their lie detector didn't pick up crap.





next week's lesson, how to pass the psych test

[mackinaw]

Do you feel I did something unbecoming of a professional by submitting to this test? :(

No I don't, I feel you made a decision and I hope it works out well for you. I have never been in this situation so I cannot fault your decision. I just gave an opinion....and it happens to be mine.:D

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by wolfstrike
next week's lesson, how to pass the psych testEgad. I must live some kind of sheltered existence; did the lie detection guy have a doctor-like display of framed degrees on his wall like the one I met? I felt intimidated.

In any case, with the background check done the service manager who may or may not hire me will need a week to get back to me so he can interview three other people for the same position.

[refer guy]

I would make sure im getting paid some good a$$ money for a polygraph, I wonder if you can ask the guy/girl that interviewed you, made promises to you, and have him/her take the polygraph too to see if their just talking out of their behinds.

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by refer guy
I would make sure im getting paid some good a$$ money for a polygraph, I wonder if you can ask the guy/girl that interviewed you, made promises to you, and have him/her take the polygraph too to see if their just talking out of their behinds.If I'm hired at that company as an apprentice I will also receive plumbing training. According to the recruiter who convinced me to apply, technicians who know plumbing and HVAC make an average of $70,000 per year.

[refer guy]

thats good money for someone out of school, now is that out of school or after five years or so.

[HVAC Student]

Presumably that figure applies to mid-career technicians; as an apprentice I would be paid a salary instead of a commission for the first year.

[snewman24]

Have you ever encountered a company that gave lie detector tests to job applicants? .............

If I read federal law correctly, it sounds like your prospective employer is just asking for a lawsuit......... :eek:

http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/eppa.htm

[HVAC Student]

You appear to be correct. Unfortunately, they probably won't hire me if I sue them. :D

[snewman24]

You appear to be correct. Unfortunately, they probably won't hire me if I sue them. :D

If you win the lawsuit and get punitive damages, you might not have to work
ever again.........:D :D

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by snewman24
If you win the lawsuit and get punitive damages, you might not have to work
ever againNo, no, no. Taking advantage of such a law would run contrary to my libertarian tendencies. :rolleyes:

[ZZZRSC]

I think the max punitive suit is $10,000 to be paid to DOL and the most the applicant can get is to force them to hire him, and pay back wages lost during interim, the way I read it. Still it is good to know and a good site for other labor information. Government employees aren't so lucky. All the years I worked for the state government we never had to worry about OSHA either, my state (Mo) exempted its employees from their rules. I was told this by the OSHA headquarters in DC when I called them.
Thanks Snewman

[idontgetit]

Polygraph test have been illegal for many years and I am frankly surprised to hear anyone is stupid enough to continue using them. Accuracy on them is dicey at very best.

If you do not get hired, I would contact the department of labor on it. The employer deserves a nice big spankin for doing it and it is the only way you can keep out of control owners in check these days.

There are a lot of good people owning hvac companies these days and you just have to dig around to find them as they tend to keep employees so fewer openings happen.

the 70k quote from the recruiter is just that, a quote from someone who ain't cutting the check. 12-20 an hour or 24-40k a year is a far more realistic starting wage with a 40-60 k a year goal in five years. if you get REALLY good at what you do the 60-100k deal is well within reach in this trade, but you gotta get smart, work real hard, and make the company money in order to reach that goal, that make the company money part is something a few techs seem to forget.

Good luck

[idontgetit]

Oh, and before anyone comes on ranting and running off at the mouth about how it is legal and they will do whatever they want, feel free to take a look at these cases prior to looking silly.

Illinois county could not suspend a corrections officer for refusing to undergo polygraph examination during an investigation, in light of a state statute and a state supreme court decision barring mandatory polygraphs on "peace officers." Kelley v. Sheriff's Merit Cmsn., #2-06-0624, 2007 Ill. App. Lexis 386, 226 IER Cases (BNA) 177.
Illinois appellate court overturns discipline of a correctional officer for her refusal to submit to investigatory polygraph examination. Prior case law in Illinois (Kaske) prohibits employers from demanding a polygraph test. Kelley v. Sheriff's Merit Cmsn. of Kane Co., #2-06-0624, 2007 Ill. App. Lexis 386 (2nd Dist. 2007).
Internal investigators are not required to administer polygraph exams when pursuing allegations of untruthfulness. The evidence showed that polygraphs were not uniformly used in internal investigations. Piercy v. Maketa, #05-1192, 2007 U.S. App. Lexis 7073 (10th Cir.).
A Nebraska state corrections employee was not a "law enforcement" officer, and did not have to take a polygraph test. State law prohibits nonconsensual polygraph exams except for specific exceptions. White v. State, 248 Neb. 977, 540 N.W.2d 354, 1995 Neb. Lexis 234. [1996 FP 88]
In (one of the few) polygraph prohibition states, an employer cannot request a voluntary exam, even if no disciplinary action is contemplated. The request itself is a civil rights violation. Carr v. Mulhearn, 601 A.2d 946 (R.I. 1992). [1992 FP 90]
Appellate court overturns chief's order that promotional candidates submit to polygraph testing; civil service regulations did not grant this authority. Hatfield Twp. v. Stanley, 537 A.2d 63 (Pa. Cmwlth. 1988).
Chief could not condition reinstatement of employee on successful polygraph examination. Marion v. Green, 505 A.2d 360 (Pa. Cmwlth. 1986).
California Supreme court rejects polygraph requirements in continued employment (and prospective applicant) cases. Long Beach City Employees Assn. v. City of Long Beach, 719 P.2d 660 (Cal. 1986).
At-will security guard, terminated for refusing a polygraph test that was prohibited by law, entitled to sue for damages. Ambroz v. Cornhusker Square Ltd., 226 Neb. 899, 416 N.W.2d 510 (1987).
Federal Court enjoins Philadelphia from using polygraph results as sole basis of denying employment to police applicants. Anderson v. City of Philadelphia, 668 F.Supp. 441 (E.D. Pa. 1987).
Montana strikes down law allowing law enforcement agencies to require officers to submit to polygraph. Oberg v. City of Billings, 674 P.2d 494 (Mont. 1983).
Florida supreme court invalidates order by chief that a subordinate submit to a polygraph exam. Farmer v. City of Ft. Lauderdale, 427 So.2d 187 (Fla. 1983). Also see a 17,199 word article on Farmer v. Ft. Lauderdale at 11 Fla. St. Univ. Law Rev. 697 (Fall 1983).
Pre-employment polygraph is not affected by the Florida Supreme Court's decision in Farmer v. Ft. Lauderdale; see Drayton v. City of St. Petersburg, 477 F.Supp. 846 (M.D. Fla.), a race discrimination suit which upheld the test in a suit by black applicants.
Illinois Supreme Court bans polygraph use in public safety agencies; since evidence is inadmissible, employees may lawfully refuse to submit to test. Kaske v. City of Rockford, 450 N.E.2d 314 (1983). Also see Manias v. Peoria Co. Sheriff's Dept. 440 N.E.2d 1269 (Ill.App. 1982).
State laws may ban use of polygraph test for employment. Talent v. City of Abilene, 508 S.W 2d 592 (Tex. Civ. App. 1974).

[HVAC Student]

I wonder how many times wolfstrike has been polygraphed. He seems to be from California; maybe we've both been to the same background check company.

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

OH GOD, I would never get another job if they polygraphed me.

In my youth and ignorance:

- smoked dope, yes
- stole cars, yes
- b and e, yes
- slept with highschool girls, yes
- screwed one bosses daughter, yes
- drunk drove and crashed, yes
- threatened my landlord with a shovel, yes
- threatened my boss with an asswhuppin, yes
- think about violently pummeling my coworkers on a daily basis, yes

Oh ya, and...
- if screwed financially would not think twice about sidework or free parts, yes

That being said, I am now a completely honest, drugfree, hardworking, self-motivated, company man (with a checkered past) LOL, but hey, I am one of the best technicians that I know...

[bustawrench1]

.

[idontgetit]

...ok, not as naughty as you but can give you a few inserts.....


OH GOD, I would never get another job if they polygraphed me.

In my youth and ignorance:

- smoked dope, yes
...me to, did I sell it to you as well? FWIW over 85% of my graduating class smoked weed, but ofcourse 90% lied about it.
- stole cars, yes
...does stealin dads truck when I was 15 count? I did not get caught by the cops, after dad was done with me I whish it had been the cops. You can think your pretty darnd badassed when your 15 but the old man can still knock you for a loop!
- b and e, yes
... never did that one
- slept with highschool girls, yes
...Uhm no kiss and tell here!
- screwed one bosses daughter, yes
...screwed ones wife does that count?
- drunk drove and crashed, yes
...Not this one, when I drink much I can't walk to the car!
- threatened my landlord with a shovel, yes
...never had one of those
- threatened my boss with an asswhuppin, yes
... uhm yeah and does offerin to whip the princpal at school count too?
- think about violently pummeling my coworkers on a daily basis, yes
...Perhaps years ago, but not anymore, too old for that kind of stuff

Oh ya, and...
- if screwed financially would not think twice about sidework or free parts, yes
....never worked anywhere that sidework was such a serious taboo, but also have done VERY little of it myself. I have worked for other folks who had jobs that were too big for them for cash, but never was a fan of working extra that much.

That being said, I am now a completely honest, drugfree, hardworking, self-motivated, company man (with a checkered past) LOL, but hey, I am one of the best technicians that I know...

As a rule, those who worry most about getting ripped off are the biggest thieves of all. I do note however that an hvac contractor may have had a bad history with employees and 1 bad apple can REALLY put a dent into a company. in these days of implied entitlements, many employees do not see theft as something comming directly out of the boss's pocket and with the prices on stuff, it can be huge fast.

[crackertech]

Polygraphed is bs.:eek: and so is the co that also wants to do a credit
check on ya.:mad: what's my credit got to do with how well I do my job.
I think we should ask them for credit check and cash flow sheet before we
come on board.:D

[wolfstrike]

the company i've been to twice is Intercept, they do lie detector tests for many companys


you won't be earning anywhere near 70k your first few years, in california you'll be lucky to get that anytime in your life.
us new techs will probably never be paid so much.

companies accross america have started an international sick joke, lieing about wages.
the only thing that matters is the minimum they say they will pay, don't listen to anything else

you need to focus on getting you're 12 per hour, salary, or trying to get union wages.

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by wolfstrike
the company i've been to twice is Intercept, they do lie detector tests for many companysYes, that's where I went. If the polygraph law mentioned above is in fact being broken, does this mean Intercept is some kind of illegal business?


Originally posted by wolfstrike
you won't be earning anywhere near 70k your first few years, in california you'll be lucky to get that anytime in your life.
us new techs will probably never be paid so much.The company where I interviewed pays trainees commission after one year, so wouldn't your pay be tied to your performance rather than someone's subjective opinion?


Originally posted by wolfstrike
you need to focus on getting you're 12 per hour, salary, or trying to get union wages.As a recent trade school graduate I really look forward to getting more training. Various people say the best training is at the union, but I don't like their ideology so I don't want to join unless it's the only way to really increase my knowledge.

[mackinaw]

If I'm hired at that company as an apprentice I will also receive plumbing training. According to the recruiter who convinced me to apply, technicians who know plumbing and HVAC make an average of $70,000 per year.

$70,000 per year would be a pretty close average for our industry...not worth a polygraph in my eyes. I would bet most people on this board are not required to take a polygraph for their job. I think your prospective employer has gone too far.

[HVAC Student]

If you can suggest some good companies offering training beyond what I received in school, I'd be grateful. My email is biased_intellectual@yahoo.com

[mackinaw]

"The company where I interviewed pays trainees commission after one year, so wouldn't your pay be tied to your performance rather than someone's subjective opinion?"

I guess you didn't learn the term "pencil whip" in school.....:D

If they are soooooo honest and you have proven yourself by taking a polygraph. Why won't they commit to paying a good hourly wage? Why must it be commission? When a service guy gets commission, it makes me question ethics. Just my opinion.

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by mackinaw
I guess you didn't learn the term "pencil whip" in school.....
You're right. After a brief search engine inquiry I now know "pencil whip" is a military slang equivalent of "rubber stamp." :D

I guess it couldn't hurt to start another thread with a truncated version of my resume.

[wolfstrike]

does this mean Intercept is some kind of illegal business?


no it's not illegal, they've been in business for 12 years that i know of.

California is run by democrats, so nothing a business does is illegal.


in the future when they make you submit your DNA, that won't be illegal,
when they make you put a microchip in your hand, that won't be illegal either.

[mackinaw]

If I’m paying a professional technician to fix something, I don't want his/her paycheck to influence their diagnosis.:eek: Commission is for sales.

[HVAC Student]

I didn't get the job. I'll apply to the union and keep busy until they accept me.

[Joe Cool]

You say that he never actually gave you the polygraph test. That leads me to believe that they never had any intention of doing so. In my opinion, this was just an idle threat that was meant to scare you into answering all the questions honestly.

[coolestacman]

Thats what I like about Canada no piss or Polygraph test.
I will never figure you guys out threaten to take your guns away and you would rather die then give them up.
Then when the man violates your privacy with these test you submit.

[HVAC Student]

Originally posted by Joe Cool
You say that he never actually gave you the polygraph test. That leads me to believe that they never had any intention of doing so. In my opinion, this was just an idle threat that was meant to scare you into answering all the questions honestly.Wolfstrike has been to the same place and said he was polygraphed twice.


Originally posted by coolestacman
I will never figure you guys out threaten to take your guns away and you would rather die then give them up.
Then when the man violates your privacy with these test you submit.If the private sector wants to take your guns or polygraph you it's not the same because you can refuse.