13 SEER become a 14 SEER Energy Star?

[wease13]

I signed a contract for a 14 SEER Energy Star a/c, and new furnace. The manager sent me the model numbers ahead of time. The a/c model number was for a 14 SEER Energy Star condenser unit. What was installed was a 13 SEER non-Energy Star condenser unit. When I confront them about it they say the combination of the furnace, new coils, and the 13 SEER makes the A/C run with a 14 SEER rating. They showed me specs that say that. They say they made a mistake when they sent us the model numbers. However, is this bate an switch? Are they taking a cheap way out? Is it cheaper to upgrade the coils than to give me the 14 SEER condenser unit they promised? Can my 13 SEER appliance magically become an Energy Star appliance without an Energy Star sticker? Any thoughts or experience with this would be much appreciated. We have not paid a dime for this yet, but everything is up an running. Thank you.

[ga-hvac-tech]

In some circumstances (like a VS furnace), sometime... and I stress sometimes, you will get 14 SEER with 13 SEER equipment.

However; IMO if someone says they will install XXX, then they should install XXX. Just good business.

Did you take the cheap bid?

[Mr Bill]

When I confront them about it they say the combination of the furnace, new coils, and the 13 SEER makes the A/C run with a 14 SEER rating.


So he is basically telling you the furnace and coil dictates the seer rating? thats a crock if I have
ever heard one, I guess next he will be telling you the coil and furnace dictates the tonnage. :rolleyes:
Post the brand and model numbers here for all the equipment.

[Mr Bill]

Can my 13 SEER appliance magically become an Energy Star appliance without an Energy Star sticker?


Yes in your a/c guys world. :eek:

[t527ed]

was there a contract with model#s on it or he just "sent" you some numbers??


what were #s he sent compared to what he installed??

[BaldLoonie]

We sell a brand where their "13 SEER" heat pump will qualify for the federal tax credit of 15 SEER, 13 EER and 9.15 HSPF. Pretty good huh! Of course takes the right coil and a variable speed blower.

So if he wasn't given a model # to expect and he ended up with a system that gets an ARI rated 14 SEER, he got what he paid for. If the model #s don't match, he's got a claim which it sounds like it.

What model # were you promised and what did you get?

I've seen a few cases with beloved American Standard where the Allegiance 13 and VS blower has a high SEER than an Allegiance 14, same coil & blower get. That's why it doesn't make sense to put a SEER number in the model #. That same Allegiance 13 on an old cap tube coil would suddenly become an Allegiance 9 until the compressor said no more.

[smokin68]

If for example the equipment is Goodman, a 13seer condenser can produce 14seer with the addition of a v/s air handler and a txv. I have a 14 seer condenser ARI rated at 15 seer with the combination I have, v/s and txv. So yes you can achieve a higher seer than condenser itself is rated at. However, if you contracted for a 14 seer condenser, that's what I'd expect to be installed. Sounds like someone screwed up.

[wease13]

The contract stated a 14 SEER/3 ton a/c and specs for the furnace (I don't have it in front of me). The model numbers were not on the contract, but were e-mailed to me by the general manager after the contract was signed (Amana furnace #GV80905C and Amana condenser unit #GSC140361A). What was installed was an Amana furnace #GV80905, Goodman Coils #CAPF3636C6AA, and Amana condenser unit #GSC130361DE, which appear to equal a 14 SEER rating on the Amana specs from the Amana web-site. We got 3 estimates and went with the middle guy who was lower than our utility company but higher than another contractor.

[t527ed]

if the signed contract only stated 14 seer a/c i would say you got what you paid for...:(

[BaldLoonie]

I'm sure Robo will correct me if I'm wrong but from what I see, the biggest advantage to the 14 would be a scroll compressor instead of a recip. Did they tell you that it would be Amana Disctinctions, which is another label for Goodman. Not a full blown deluxe Amana?

[udarrell]

Let this experience be a warning to consumers, use the Model numbers of the equipment & explain that you will accept NO substitutes.

For example, a 14-SEER Goodman condenser is a different combination of vital components.

The 14 has a Copeland scroll compressor & TXV refrigerant metering device, "personally," I would not accept anything else.

The 13-SEER has a recip-piston compressor & a fixed orifice metering device.

The 14 has the new industry trend components, the 13 does not.

With all equipment purchases, keep the brochures & order by Model numbers & have it all in written duplicate receipts.

The least a contractor can do is deliver what you ordered & paid for.
Make certain you are getting what you ordered before they install it - udarrell

[MJDHVAC]

if the signed contract only stated 14 seer a/c i would say you got what you paid for...:(


I would have to agree with T. The proposal only stated 14SEER and they acheived thier goal. Sometimes people make mistakes, especially when there is communication between the Estimator, Office and Homeowner. If it it did not make 14SEER than you would have a beef, not in this case.

MJD

[plainscraps]

**CAUTION** I ran into the same problems when having my system installed. I stipulated that the contractor must include the part numbers for the heat pump, coil and furnace unit (dual fuel). When he did so, I plugged the data into:

http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/unitary.html

With the data they gave me the coil would not allow my system to achieve a 16 SEER rating. I insisted that he include the coil that would accomplish this, then printed out the ARI certificate indicating it meets or exceeds that rating. The difference in the coil price was negligable (less than 50 bucks). Your system should STATE by sticker if it is energy star compliant. If not, the ARI certificate will ( I am almost sure, however, not positive). If your estimate (signed by him/her and yourself) includes part numbers, I believe they are bound to that estimate and what is contained within it regardless of what the contract states. Remember you are paying for it. Not them.

Best of luck and regards to all.

[joepuwi]

How is the SEER rating determined? A contractor I'm working with first proposed a system rated at 15 SEER.

Carrier
Condenser 24APA536
Coil CNPVP36
Furnace 58CVA090-116

The price was beyond my budget so I asked him to lower the price. He came back with a proposal for a system rated at 14 SEER but with the same model numbers.

I tried looking up the model numbers in http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/unitary.html. The closest match I could find is 24APA536030 for the condenser and CNPV*3617A**, CNPV*3617A**+TDR ,
CNPV*3621A** for the coil. These are rated 14, 14.5 to 15 SEER. How can I tell what the correct SEER rating is?

[BaldLoonie]

To know a SEER rating on the high end stuff, you gotta have all 3 components, unit, coil & blower. If you can't find an exact match, no idea what you are getting. If he said he's dropping from 15 SEER to 14 SEER without changing anything, something fishy!

The match of the components you list is 15 SEER. He SHOULD be quoting the 17" wide coil to match the 090 furnace. The 21" wide coil is used with larger furnaces.

This SEER stuff is very confusing these days. Customers should insist on model numbers on everything.

[Demetrios3]

The contract stated a 14 SEER/3 ton a/c and specs for the furnace (I don't have it in front of me). The model numbers were not on the contract, but were e-mailed to me by the general manager after the contract was signed (Amana furnace #GV80905C and Amana condenser unit #GSC140361A). What was installed was an Amana furnace #GV80905, Goodman Coils #CAPF3636C6AA, and Amana condenser unit #GSC130361DE, which appear to equal a 14 SEER rating on the Amana specs from the Amana web-site. We got 3 estimates and went with the middle guy who was lower than our utility company but higher than another contractor.

He put a 14 SEER model number on the contract and installed a 13 SEER condenser. In other words he ripped you off. Don't let him get away with it.

[smokin68]

He put a 14 SEER model number on the contract and installed a 13 SEER condenser. In other words he ripped you off. Don't let him get away with it.


Bull$hit. You don't know. There a component Baldloonie didn't mention in his Seer
ratings....the txv(or metering device), which the contractor might have eliminated here, making a 15seer with the same equipment 14 seer if installed with a piston.

[BaldLoonie]

Demetrios3 was referring to the original post on the Goodman system.

In the Carrier question, the coil is the same and Carrier coils have TXV factory installed. So that doesn't explain how he is dropping to 14 SEER with identical equipment. Could be the case in other brands however.

[chillbilly]

He put a 14 SEER model number on the contract and installed a 13 SEER condenser. In other words he ripped you off. Don't let him get away with it.
That's not necessarily true.
There are several matches where a 13 seer outdoor unit coupled with certain indoor sections could achieve 14 seer.

[Mr Bill]

That's not necessarily true.
There are several matches where a 13 seer outdoor unit coupled with certain indoor sections could achieve 14 seer.

I am totally disagreeing with you here until farther proof, so if you get a minute please list
an approved "ARI" setup like this that will achieve a true 14 seer not 13.9999 using a 13 seer
condenser, I just don't believe that myself, I would just like to personally know if this really
can happen. :D

[chillbilly]

Carrier Indoor Fan Coil, FK4DNF005 with ANY 13 seer Carrier outdoor section achieves 14 seer.

[Mr Bill]

Carrier Indoor Fan Coil, FK4DNF005 with ANY 13 seer Carrier outdoor section achieves 14 seer.

I need model numbers for both so I can go to the ARI site and check I don't sell
Carrier so I have to see for myself. :D
So just give me any 13 seer carrier condenser model number.
ARI Reference Number would be good also.

[chillbilly]

Carrier FK4DNF005 Fan coil

Carrier 25HBR, 25HCR H/P
Bryant 223 RNC, 223 RNA H/P

[Mr Bill]

Carrier FK4DNF005 Fan coil

Carrier 25HBR, 25HCR H/P
Bryant 223 RNC, 223 RNA H/P


Well it's coming up with not enough info. so the model number on one or the other is not working, or not the full number on both.

[chillbilly]

Hmmm.

Try FKFDNF005 with 25HCR336. That's a 3 ton match.

[Mr Bill]

Hmmm.

Try FKFDNF005 with 25HCR336. That's a 3 ton match.


You got me still not working, I will worry about it later I need to go put a new seal
in my floor jack, be cool.
Mr. Bill

[oldertech]

I would have to agree with T. The proposal only stated 14SEER and they acheived thier goal. Sometimes people make mistakes, especially when there is communication between the Estimator, Office and Homeowner. If it it did not make 14SEER than you would have a beef, not in this case.

MJD

I agree in many cases. However there are other considerations, does it still qualify for rebates you expected, are you getting the same quality and features in the equipment that you expected?

When there is a miscommunication it should be corrected before the work is done. That is good business and fair to all concerned!

[beenthere]

Try this link.
You'll have to page down to the 4 ton 13 seer condenser that gets 14 seer.
There are more.

http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/ac_search.php?sort=CBCFM&order=0

[Mr Bill]

Try this link.
You'll have to page down to the 4 ton 13 seer condenser that gets 14 seer.
There are more.

http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/ac_search.php?sort=CBCFM&order=0

That links to this.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/ScreenHunter_001.jpg

[chillbilly]

Here you are, Bill.
http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php
Just type in the numbers that I gave you in the outdoor and indoor unit columns.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Hey BillPro,

Not meaning to punch your button here, but:

If I remember; are you a Ruud dealer? If so, look in that thick black spec book... Under Condensers; then UAND. Using the RCFA coil 3621A, mounted on a UGPL (or a UGPR) VS furnace 07E--- you will see a 14 SEER rating there. If you use the same coil on a 10 furnace (as at my home), it becomes 13.5 SEER.

Also look in the UANL A/C condenser with the RCFL coil and the same other specs and you will see the same thing...

Hope this helps... BTW: One of many reasons I like RUUD equipment is the spec book.

[chillbilly]

Mr. Bill,

Click on the heating cooling cost link below.

CoolingHigh Heating 47°FLow Heating 17°F ARI Ref. # (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=REFNO&order=0)Model Status (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=MODSTATUS&order=0)Manufacturer (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=MANUF&order=0)Trade/Brand Name (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=BRAND&order=0)Outdoor Unit
Model Number (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=MODEL&order=0)Indoor Unit
Model Number (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=ICMN&order=0)Furnace Model Number (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=FURNACEMODEL&order=0)Capacity
(Btuh) (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=CAPACITY&order=0)EER (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=EER&order=0)SEER (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=SEER&order=0)Capacity
(Btuh) (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=CAPACITY1&order=0)HSPF (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=HSPF&order=0)Capacity
(Btuh) (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=CAPACITY2&order=0)Phase (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=PHASE&order=0)ARI Type (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=ARITYPE&order=0)Footnotes (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=FOOTNOTES&order=0)Cooling Cost ($) (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=ESTCOOL&order=0)Heating Cost ($) (http://www.aridirectory.org/ari/hp_search.php?sort=ESTHEAT&order=0)789550Active
CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING
Comfort 13 R22
HP25HCR336A
30FK4DNF005
BTUH35,200
EER11.50
SEER14.00
30,600 8.30 20,6001HRCU-A-CB 216497

[Mr Bill]

Hey BillPro,
Not meaning to punch your button here, but:
If I remember; are you a Ruud dealer? If so, look in that thick black spec book... Under Condensers; then UAND. Using the RCFA coil 3621A, mounted on a UGPL (or a UGPR) VS furnace 07E--- you will see a 14 SEER rating there. If you use the same coil on a 10 furnace (as at my home), it becomes 13.5 SEER.

Also look in the UANL A/C condenser with the RCFL coil and the same other specs and you will see the same thing...

Hope this helps... BTW: One of many reasons I like RUUD equipment is the spec book.


Yes I am a RUUD dealer for 15 years, but thats really weird the UAND is a single row coil condenser
were the UAPC is a double row, go figure why even build a 14 seer double row condenser if you can
get a 14 seer using a single row 13 seer condenser?

[beenthere]

The cost diff between the 13 and 14 SEER condnesers is probaly less then the cost to upgrade to a VS air handler.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yes I am a RUUD dealer for 15 years, but thats really weird the UAND is a single row coil condenser
were the UAPC is a double row, go figure why even build a 14 seer double row condenser if you can
get a 14 seer using a single row 13 seer condenser?

Hi Bill,

Yeah, I understand. I have wondered about that quite often... my sales guy and the tech guy both ignore me when I ask that question...

Now here is another one: Using your UAPC 036 condenser, put the RCFA 4821 coil on top of the 17" wide UGPL/UGPR 07E, and you will get 14.5 SEER. But put that same coil on top of the 21" wide 07E (has a 3/4 HP ECM motor rather than a 1/2 HP, and is rated for 4 ton rather than 3 ton), and you get 15 SEER.

On the other hand, who wants to take apart a Ruud condenser and split the coil to clean it... Not I if I can help it.

Most of my systems use the UGPR furnace (I sell it with a humidistat on the return and ODD connected as part of the upgrade). It does not get cold enough here to warrant a 90+ furnace, few folks choose that upgrade. So most of my customers are getting 13.5 to 14 SEER. If they want to upgrade the A/C, I generally push them towards a UARL (16 SEER, 2 stage).

I kinda think Rheem/Ruud needs to think out their model line a little more... but I am used to the rest of the product, so I will stay with the brand unless the distributor becomes too difficult to deal with.

[ga-hvac-tech]

The cost diff between the 13 and 14 SEER condnesers is probaly less then the cost to upgrade to a VS air handler.

Do not do many HP/AH installs here, N/Gas is readily available in almost all of metro Atlanta.

But you are correct on the costs...

I think Rheem/Ruud needs to re-think their AH line also. The old UBHK was IMO a great AH, but it is gone.