Small Finished area in Attic for HVAC

[robertc65]

I recently discovered some hidden square footage over my garage which is well insulated. There is plenty of room to house a HVAC system up there and it has ready vertical access to all levels of the house. If my new unit were to be installed in this area would it make sense to finish off a small area as conditioned space. For about $200 bucks and a Saturdays worth of work I could drywall an area and seal it so my unit could be stored in conditioned space as opposed to in the attic. Does this make sense? Would my time and money pay off in lower operating costs or would having to condition this extra space end up costing me more? I'm thinking of a space just large enough to house the unit with plenty of clearance to work around it.

Rob

[bahvaco]

We service techs that have to crawl around in those attics will love ya for it. :)

But,you and the installer have to get together and hash out the return/supply duct routing/electrical/drains & so on and so fourth and etc.,etc.

[Mstrav]

You know that the garage wall all the way to the roof is a firewall right? flex cant pass through that!!!!! Unless you dont care. You also need to calculate the attic vent sq in of face area to confirm enough combustion air is in there.


matt

[jrbenny]

What?

[BigJon3475]

I guess the fire proof caulk isn't available there :rolleyes:

[Mstrav]

I guess the fire proof caulk isn't available there :rolleyes:


so you use fire caulk on flex? You need to learn that if you know nothing about a topic, to read it and move on, not put your .02$


matt

[AtticAce]

You know that the garage wall all the way to the roof is a firewall right? flex cant pass through that!!!!! Unless you dont care. You also need to calc the attic vents to confirm enough combustion air is in there.


matt

thus the steel fire door between the house and the garage. The area above the garage ceiling which connects to the house is never fire rated.
I install blower coils in these areas which in most cases have doors from the finished second floor room to the garage attic, or from the attic of the ranch type house, to the attic of the garage.

Some houses do fire rate the wall up to the ridge next to the house, these if they have storage have pull down ladders or steps or exposed rafters. This is usually only done if the attic of the garage is not high enough to be accessed from inside the second floor of the house.

[Mstrav]

thus the steel fire door between the house and the garage. The area above the garage ceiling which connects to the house is never fire rated.
I install blower coils in these areas which in most cases have doors from the finished second floor room to the garage attic, or from the attic of the ranch type house, to the attic of the garage.

Some houses do fire rate the wall up to the ridge next to the house, these if they have storage have pull down ladders or steps or exposed rafters. This is usually only done if the attic of the garage is not high enough to be accessed from the second floor of the house.



the wall between the garage and house is a fire wall, in all the states of the west that I have lived, not sure back east. all units must be on an 18" platform (if they are in garage) and metal only through the firewall if your unit is in there and ducts back to the house above the garage and through that wall, california and nevada at least.


referance would be the International Buiding Code, Mech code only tells us what material to use when we penetrate such assemblies.


matt

[BigJon3475]

the wall between the garage and house is a fire wall, in all the states of the west that I have lived, not sure back east. all units must be on an 18" platform (if they are in garage) and metal only through the firewall if your unit is in there and ducts back to the house above the garage and through that wall, california and nevada at least.
Nevermind Ill just keep that to myself. Mstrav I don't know how old you are but this is getting old. Do not reply to me anymore ok? Done deal.

[jrbenny]

The OP is in Maryland. You are being rather presumptuous with your post regarding building codes.

[Mstrav]

I guess the fire proof caulk isn't available there :rolleyes:


you mean, you dont reply to me? what is this comment mean? does it help the OP?


matt

[jrbenny]

Both of you, stop. You've both been warned previously.

I've already put my kids to bed. Let's attempt to be adults tonight.

[BigJon3475]

Both of you, stop. You've both been warned previously.

I've already put my kids to bed. Let's attempt to be adults tonight.

Understood.

[BigJon3475]

What about a product like this? This would be new to me so I am researching for the record.

furnace cement - clean 'n friendly formulation
Use to seal and repair boilers, furnaces, flue pipes, stoves, ducts, kilns, chimneys, combustion chambers, and many other furnace and refractory applications. Unique patented clean'n friendly formula meets OSHA's requirement of less than 0.1% of crystalline silica content. Applies exceptionally smoothly. Can be used on oil, gas, coal, and wood-burning heating systems. Adheres to most building materials. When cured, makes positive non-porous fireproof seal. Will not shrink, crack or crumble. Contains no oils, asbestos, or crystalline silica. Available in regular body (non-runny tan colored) cement, and heavy body (firmer consistency, dark gray color).

[Mstrav]

To comply with the code, the minimum code requirements shall be:

1) Installation of one layer of 5/8" Type 'X' gypsum board on the garage side of the common walls up to the roof sheathing. No taping is required so long as joints are in contact or backed by framing members. (UBC 2511.5)

2) If a builder chooses to enclose the ceiling with one layer of 5/8" Type 'X' gypsum board, in lieu of extending the common wall up to the roof sheathing, they must include all supporting members in addition to the common walls.

3) If the area above the garage ceiling is for dwelling use, the ceiling now becomes a horizontal separation and shall require one layer of 5/8" Type 'X' gypsum board. The common walls and all walls supporting the floor above must also be included. If common trusses are used for part of the separation, they must be designed to provide the necessary framing for the gypsum board connection.

4) When the soffit area of the garage and the house are common, the fire wall shall extend through the soffit.



does this help? I have been an instalation foreman / superintendant for many, many years, not sure from state to state, but in cali, nevada and Idaho it is the law, but i am an idiot I guess


matt

[Mstrav]

What about a product like this? This would be new to me so I am researching for the record.

furnace cement - clean 'n friendly formulation
Use to seal and repair boilers, furnaces, flue pipes, stoves, ducts, kilns, chimneys, combustion chambers, and many other furnace and refractory applications. Unique patented clean'n friendly formula meets OSHA's requirement of less than 0.1% of crystalline silica content. Applies exceptionally smoothly. Can be used on oil, gas, coal, and wood-burning heating systems. Adheres to most building materials. When cured, makes positive non-porous fireproof seal. Will not shrink, crack or crumble. Contains no oils, asbestos, or crystalline silica. Available in regular body (non-runny tan colored) cement, and heavy body (firmer consistency, dark gray color).


I have no idea what you are talking about, you interupted my technical response to this poster about some "code" isues you know nothing about!!!! please keep your .02$ to yourself and observe some of the others here, you may learn somthing, why do you think I am here!! I learn things daily and I also observe!!!


matt

[Mstrav]

Both of you, stop. You've both been warned previously.

I've already put my kids to bed. Let's attempt to be adults tonight.

please review my last posts, I thought if we dont provide info that helps a post it is not to be posted? Is he providing or bashing me?

matt

[BigJon3475]

No one is calling anyone here an idiot. We are here to learn from each other and to help prospective HO's correct. That post was informative and I thank you for that.

[jrbenny]

please review my last posts, I thought if we dont provide info that helps a post it is not to be posted? Is he providing or bashing me?

matt

Back off. Sheesh you are high strung. He asked you a question, but you are spun so tight about the earlier post that you can't respond without cutting the guy.

[cmajerus]

not firecaulk, it is for fixing refractory, sealing cracks, ect. to install the furnace there and go through the firewall you will need firedampers in supply and return duct, also fire caulk around the duct.

[jrbenny]

To comply with the code, the minimum code requirements shall be:

1) Installation of one layer of 5/8" Type 'X' gypsum board on the garage side of the common walls up to the roof sheathing. No taping is required so long as joints are in contact or backed by framing members. (UBC 2511.5)

2) If a builder chooses to enclose the ceiling with one layer of 5/8" Type 'X' gypsum board, in lieu of extending the common wall up to the roof sheathing, they must include all supporting members in addition to the common walls.

3) If the area above the garage ceiling is for dwelling use, the ceiling now becomes a horizontal separation and shall require one layer of 5/8" Type 'X' gypsum board. The common walls and all walls supporting the floor above must also be included. If common trusses are used for part of the separation, they must be designed to provide the necessary framing for the gypsum board connection.

4) When the soffit area of the garage and the house are common, the fire wall shall extend through the soffit.



does this help? I have been an instalation foreman / superintendant for many, many years, not sure from state to state, but in cali, nevada and Idaho it is the law, but i am an idiot I guess


matt
#2 in your post is why we don't see fire walls in our attics. Builders in my area 'finish' the garage.

[BigJon3475]

also fire caulk around the duct.



So is that a yes or no on the fire caulk. I found the fire proof cement that is OSHA approved. But all I could find on fire proof caulk is for wiring and plumbing and anything related to an opening in a firewall.



This interest me because we had a building burn down and was rebuilt and part of the code to rebuild was use fire caulk on every single opening. Obviously by this thread it seems that's another inspector woke up on the wrong side of the bed day.

[Mstrav]

not firecaulk, it is for fixing refractory, sealing cracks, ect. to install the furnace there and go through the firewall you will need firedampers in supply and return duct, also fire caulk around the duct.


agreed, I was trying to show the homowner it might be a can of worms and a lot of expense, in addition to the risk of damage to the fire rating. If there was a fire, the insurance companys are very good at figuring this stuff out!!


matt

[Mstrav]

So is that a yes or no on the fire caulk. I found the fire proof cement that is OSHA approved. But all I could find on fire proof caulk is for wiring and plumbing and anything related to an opening in a firewall.



This interest me because we had a building burn down and was rebuilt and part of the code to rebuild was use fire caulk on every single opening. Obviously by this thread it seems that's another inspector woke up on the wrong side of the bed day.


any and all penetrations including the boxes for washing machines, electrical boxes, abs must be sleeved, etc.. all need to be sealed. If the wall is full height the duct MUST be metal 26 ga. and sleeved beyond both sides. If the lid and the common wall are the rating, then he needs to put the correct access in that is rated and not all pull down ladders are accepted, they are actually a risk to the rating when done wrong.


many inspectors overlook this or the penetrations happen after inspection and worse is the HO's dont realize the cable guy punched holes in a rated ceiling to run his wires.


matt

[cmajerus]

So is that a yes or no on the fire caulk. I found the fire proof cement that is OSHA approved. But all I could find on fire proof caulk is for wiring and plumbing and anything related to an opening in a firewall.



This interest me because we had a building burn down and was rebuilt and part of the code to rebuild was use fire caulk on every single opening. Obviously by this thread it seems that's another inspector woke up on the wrong side of the bed day.
I will look at the tubes at the shop and get you the name of it. It is probably the stuff you found.

[cmajerus]

fire caulk actually expands at extreme temps... i.e. flames.
it closes off penatrations from pipes and wires when they melt down.
the caulk only needs to fill the gap around the sheetmetal as the fire dampers inside are to keep the flames from going through there.

Also dampers are very expensive, so have the bids priced accordingly, a suprise fire damper can really hurt if it wasn't bid.

[BigJon3475]

fire caulk actually expands at extreme temps... i.e. flames.
it closes off penatrations from pipes and wires when they melt down.
the caulk only needs to fill the gap around the sheetmetal as the fire dampers inside are to keep the flames from going through there.

Also dampers are very expensive, so have the bids priced accordingly, a suprise fire damper can really hurt if it wasn't bid.


yeah the inspector required that also.......If I remember correctly (several years ago) It was in the $100's for one fire dampener. We needed 12 that weren't in the bid.

[Mstrav]

3m firebarrier is what I use there are a few types but the hvac supply houses usually have the right one.


matt

[bahvaco]

I've never seen any fire rating anything in a residence unless they call the 5/8" rock on the ceiling it. But the attics are usually open all the way.

Except duplexes have to have a fire wall to the deck between.

Wondering about the OP's fire code now???

[cmajerus]

I've never seen any fire rating anything in a residence unless they call the 5/8" rock on the ceiling it. But the attics are usually open all the way.

Except duplexes have to have a fire wall to the deck between.

Wondering about the OP's fire code now???
that is the fire wall I believe here it is 2 sheets of 5/8"

[BigJon3475]

Should I ask a question here about fire rating or start a new thread about my shop? I don't want to stray from the OP's question.

[Mstrav]

Should I ask a question here about fire rating or start a new thread about my shop? I don't want to stray from the OP's question.


start a new one and others may be able to help, I'm pretty good with fire dampers if thats the question.

matt

[BigJon3475]

start a new one and others may be able to help, I'm pretty good with fire dampers if thats the question.

matt


I just posted on my other thread about Time for a new furnace? lol (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=147333) but I realized I didn't have the pics needed to get a good answer. I will take some tomorrow and then we can discuss.....Thank you.

[robertc65]

Thanks for all of the responses. I never knew that this area had any sort of firewall. I'll check with the county here to see what the local code has to say about it. It just seemed like a very convient place to house the unit. Plenty of space and easy access. Oh well, it also may be more trouble than it's worth.

Thanks

Rob

[AtticAce]

the wall between the garage and house is a fire wall, in all the states of the west that I have lived, not sure back east. all units must be on an 18" platform (if they are in garage) and metal only through the firewall if your unit is in there and ducts back to the house above the garage and through that wall, california and nevada at least.


referance would be the International Buiding Code, Mech code only tells us what material to use when we penetrate such assemblies.


matt

fire rated assemblies. The attic above the garage is not a fire rated assembly. If this garage attic area is connected to the attic of the house there is no problem here.

[Mstrav]

fire rated assemblies. The attic above the garage is not a fire rated assembly. If this garage attic area is connected to the attic of the house there is no problem here.



there are many ways to build the garage firewall "assembly". Wall could be full height to underside of roof, could have just wall and ceiling, me and you are not there and I do not want a "ho" or a "hack" burning this guys house down.


matt