We Can't Handle God's Truth?

[scrogdog]

Here is one reason that I come to ARP.

Something that Ac and Boot said caused a light switch to be turned on in my head. Something that I had never considered before was brought to light by the words of others.

Kind of funny too, because this one should have jumped out at me earlier it seems. But it didn’t.

Ok, so, here is what began the process.

Acmanko said (from the Respect topic);


as it stands today it is almost impossible to tell who is correct and who is not. Respect should be extended to everyone. Scienc today has made great strides in the understanding of the Universe, which is why I say God is still busy with creation. The closer man comes to figuring it out the more difficult he makes it.

My first reaction to this in my head was “ridiculous”. I replied to Ac saying that would mean that God is actively hiding the truth. I felt confidant that other believers would go on to claim that the idea was silly, and we’d move on and forget all about it.

Wrong!


Acmanko: In Genesis God forbade man to seek the truth


Bootlen: [Humans can’t handle] the whole truth...not in these unglorified bodies. Truth would destroy us. God does not want that.


ga-hvac-tech: If seeing the truth without understanding it were dangerous, would you give it to you kids?

God views us as kids… and we are to remain kids. Again… where is the developmental path here?

And so, a simple idea has now left me in a state of complete flabbergastation. Not only is God actively working to keep the truth from man, but believers are ok with that!

God is actively working to deny me the one of the very big things in my life; the quest for knowledge. I must now wonder, is God capable of actually LYING to me? Why not?

Let’s suppose that God takes me on a journey back through time to show me all the things that I want to see. Why should I believe Him? How do I know that he did not just construct whatever I needed to see to bring me in to the fold? With all the talk of God and truth, to put this forth is… jaw dropping.

It seems that some won’t be happy until I am left angry with God and declare myself a full-blown atheist! :)

Explain yourselves, gentlemen.

[RoBoTeq]

Why are you cherry picking only things that you can use to antagonize learning about faith?

There is not one person on earth who can convert you to having a relationship with God. We can tell you what we believe God has been communicating to mankind through prophets. We can tell you how we have a relationship with God. We can tell you how developing a relationship with God has changed our lives to one more worthy of living and less worisome of dying. What we cannot do is bring you and God together. That is completely up to you.

To you, faith is bad because you only seek untruth. How can you find something that you are not only not looking for but deliberately trying to prove that what you claim to be looking for doesn't exist?

[scrogdog]

Why are you cherry picking only things that you can use to antagonize learning about faith?

There is not one person on earth who can convert you to having a relationship with God. We can tell you what we believe God has been communicating to mankind through prophets. We can tell you how we have a relationship with God. We can tell you how developing a relationship with God has changed our lives to one more worthy of living and less worisome of dying. What we cannot do is bring you and God together. That is completely up to you.

To you, faith is bad because you only seek untruth. How can you find something that you are not only not looking for but deliberately trying to prove that what you claim to be looking for doesn't exist?

Who is cherry picking? I was not even the one to raise the issue!

Besides, even if I were... so what? Basically you are saying that if something is indefensible, that I should turn my eyes elsewhere?

If you have no answers to these questions, that's fine. If this is how God is, it's indefensible anyway, so whether he exists or not is no longer the question. The question now is, even if I find that God is real, do I want anything to do with such a God? From where I'm sitting at this moment; no.

Yet, we all think alike as lemmings, so there is something wrong and flawed about me Robo. So you have no need to worry. :) Your faith remains unchallenged.

[geerair]

Who is cherry picking? I was not even the one to raise the issue!

Besides, even if I were... so what? Basically you are saying that if something is indefensible, that I should turn my eyes elsewhere?

If you have no answers to these questions, that's fine. If this is how God is, it's indefensible anyway, so whether he exists or not is no longer the question. The question now is, even if I find that God is real, do I want anything to do with such a God? From where I'm sitting at this moment; no.

Yet, we all think alike as lemmings, so there is something wrong and flawed about me Robo. So you have no need to worry. :) Your faith remains unchallenged.Well, he did plant all of those fossils just to have a grand guffaw at our confusion. :D :D


If there is a god, he surely has one hell of a mischievious sense of humor and is not at all the pious, uptight, stick in the mud as portrayed in the bible.

Of that type of God, I could approve.

[bootlen]

Well, here goes. But only a little way. I still struggle with it as well.

God is Truth. He said so in the Person of Jesus Christ.

When Moses encountered God on Mt. Sinai, He allowed Moses to see only His "backside"...His presence as He was drawing away. And even with that, Moses was changed not just physically but spiritually. Had God revealed His full glorious being to him, the Israelites would likely still be in Egypt because Moses' burn body would never have come down from Sinai.

Truth sheds light on sin and sin is swallowed up in the resulting fire. And if God (Truth) sheds His glory on our sin-laden bodies, we, too, would be consumed by the fire.

But even if we could handle it physically, we could not handle it mentally. There simply is not room in our finite little brain.

Only a glorified body will be able to stand up under the whole truth.

[RoBoTeq]

Yet, we all think alike as lemmings, so there is something wrong and flawed about me Robo. So you have no need to worry. :) Your faith remains unchallenged.

My faith cannot be challenged. It is the one thing that is 100% mine.

It's my life and I'll do what I want,
It's my mind and I'll think what I want.

And you nor anyone else can take that away.

[RoBoTeq]

Well, he did plant all of those fossils just to have a grand guffaw at our confusion. :D :D


If there is a god, he surely has one hell of a mischievious sense of humor and is not at all the pious, uptight, stick in the mud as portrayed in the bible.

Of that type of God, I could approve.

This is exactly how I see God. If we are truly made in God's image, and God is not physical, then we must be made in God's spiritual image which includes God's character. Pious? C'mon, do you really think God is telling everyone; "I am good, I am great; yea me!" Uptight? This is an idea that was invented so that certain pious species of men can control population and purity of race.

Nope, God must have a sense of humor because I do. God must be mischievious because I am.

[scrogdog]

My faith cannot be challenged. It is the one thing that is 100% mine.

It's my life and I'll do what I want,
It's my mind and I'll think what I want.

And you nor anyone else can take that away.

See, that's where you've got me all wrong. I am not trying to turn you from God, or turn you in to me. I'm asking you how you reconcile this for yourself?

You seem to be getting angry with me a lot lately, Robo. If you think I am here only to take you down, then why even bother to reply? Put me on ignore and go about your business.

It was the free exchange of ideas that brought me to this in the first place. I think that these religious discussions are lessened if you choose not to participate. Solid in your faith, should you not instead be patiently chuckling to yourself about my misguided beliefs instead of getting mad? :)

[geerair]

Nope, God must have a sense of humor because I do. God must be mischievious because I am.Well, I have never seen clearer evidence that man did indeed create a god in his own image. ;)

[scrogdog]

Well, here goes. But only a little way. I still struggle with it as well.

God is Truth. He said so in the Person of Jesus Christ.

When Moses encountered God on Mt. Sinai, He allowed Moses to see only His "backside"...His presence as He was drawing away. And even with that, Moses was changed not just physically but spiritually. Had God revealed His full glorious being to him, the Israelites would likely still be in Egypt because Moses' burn body would never have come down from Sinai.

Truth sheds light on sin and sin is swallowed up in the resulting fire. And if God (Truth) sheds His glory on our sin-laden bodies, we, too, would be consumed by the fire.

But even if we could handle it physically, we could not handle it mentally. There simply is not room in our finite little brain.

Only a glorified body will be able to stand up under the whole truth.

Ok, fair enough. Maybe you are right that I could not experience the full glory of God without having my circuitry blown.

Maybe we are talking about two different things here.

I was especially struck by ACs assertion that God is changing the rules as we explore the nature of the universe through science. What is so glorious in the physical world that would blow our puny minds... if you know what I mean? Or do you disagree with that assertion?

Maybe we can't experience or understand the spiritual realm, but if God is playing some kind of shell game with us here in the physical realm, well...jeez. I frankly do not like that idea at all. :)

[RoBoTeq]

Well, I have never seen clearer evidence that man did indeed create a god in his own image. ;)

And I can think of no better continued proof that you are just an argumentative idiot. By your standards, there is no way to have a discussion that you can't just contradict what others state.

[bootlen]

Ok, fair enough. Maybe you are right that I could not experience the full glory of God without having my circuitry blown.

Maybe we are talking about two different things here.

I was especially struck by ACs assertion that God is changing the rules as we explore the nature of the universe through science. What is so glorious in the physical world that would blow our puny minds... if you know what I mean? Or do you disagree with that assertion?

Maybe we can't experience or understand the spiritual realm, but if God is playing some kind of shell game with us here in the physical realm, well...jeez. I frankly do not like that idea at all. :)


Ac's wrong about the rules changing. But then, he's wrong about most things.

Nothing in the physical realm is a mind blower. We're just slow on the up-take. And even slower on accepting faith that is offered by God.

No shell game, Scrog. He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The rules never change. Man's understanding of truths of the physical realm are constantly changing while truth itself is never changing. Remember Pluto? Or eggs (good or bad cholesterol). Or salt tablets for water retention? Or any of a thousand other things?

[RoBoTeq]

See, that's where you've got me all wrong. I am not trying to turn you from God, or turn you in to me. I'm asking you how you reconcile this for yourself?

You seem to be getting angry with me a lot lately, Robo. If you think I am here only to take you down, then why even bother to reply? Put me on ignore and go about your business.

It was the free exchange of ideas that brought me to this in the first place. I think that these religious discussions are lessened if you choose not to participate. Solid in your faith, should you not instead be patiently chuckling to yourself about my misguided beliefs instead of getting mad? :)

Not angry at all. I am a bit annoyed at the way you have started arguing from a point of view of rhetoric. Are you a law student? Your arguing style has changed and yes, it is annoying.

[scrogdog]

Not angry at all. I am a bit annoyed at the way you have started arguing from a point of view of rhetoric. Are you a law student? Your arguing style has changed and yes, it is annoying.

Alrighty then.

[scrogdog]

Ac's wrong about the rules changing. But then, he's wrong about most things.

Nothing in the physical realm is a mind blower. We're just slow on the up-take. And even slower on accepting faith that is offered by God.

No shell game, Scrog. He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The rules never change. Man's understanding of truths of the physical realm are constantly changing while truth itself is never changing. Remember Pluto? Or eggs (good or bad cholesterol). Or salt tablets for water retention? Or any of a thousand other things?

Ok, I guess I came away from the Respect topic with a fundamental misunderstanding of the "believer" position. It seemed to me that you were all agreeing with AC that God hides things from us.

Instead, he just doesn't give us spiritual knowledge that we can't handle yet. I can accept that. Probably for the best... I like my mind's relatively "unblown" state as it is. lol

[bootlen]

Ok, I guess I came away from the Respect topic with a fundamental misunderstanding of the "believer" position. It seemed to me that you were all agreeing with AC that God hides things from us.

Instead, he just doesn't give us spiritual knowledge that we can't handle yet. I can accept that. Probably for the best... I like my mind's relatively "unblown" state as it is. lol


Exactly. Kinda like you would not explain the details of human conception to your 3 year old daughter. (At least I hope you wouldn't.) The typical 3 year old is simply not ready for that information. Same on other issues as well.

And the relationship we have with our Heavenly Father is expressed in ways we can understand in our own relationship with our kids and our parents.

[bootlen]

Well, I'm outta here. My home PC isn't back from the geek yet so I won't be able to post till Monday when I come back to work.

Later.

[Plates5]

Understanding God's truth is not meant for this world, It is for his kingdom. To gain what we need, we must first believe Him and recpricate the love he has for us his children, to him first and to our fellow humans and fully trust in him which is faith. All that is needed including understanding will be given us as our abillities to help others are used correctly. For us to just understand God's truth would exalt us humans, not God himself. He often uses the lowly humans to do some of the greatest things to keep the on lookers awe on God exactly where it belongs. I myself do not really need to fully understand everthing he has done, because I beleive, trust and love Him. I really enjoy being one of His children. I truely hope you find what you need. :)

[braces4impact]

Funny how they use the "we can't handle the truth of god" line to get them from out of a backed corner in a debate but they know the "truth of god" when it comes to major ethical issues of today. Strange how it can interchange and shape shift like that.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Here is one reason that I come to ARP.

Something that Ac and Boot said caused a light switch to be turned on in my head. Something that I had never considered before was brought to light by the words of others.

Kind of funny too, because this one should have jumped out at me earlier it seems. But it didn’t.

Ok, so, here is what began the process.

Acmanko said (from the Respect topic);

My first reaction to this in my head was “ridiculous”. I replied to Ac saying that would mean that God is actively hiding the truth. I felt confidant that other believers would go on to claim that the idea was silly, and we’d move on and forget all about it.

Wrong!

God views us as kids… and we are to remain kids. Again… where is the developmental path here?

And so, a simple idea has now left me in a state of complete flabbergastation. Not only is God actively working to keep the truth from man, but believers are ok with that!

God is actively working to deny me the one of the very big things in my life; the quest for knowledge. I must now wonder, is God capable of actually LYING to me? Why not?

Let’s suppose that God takes me on a journey back through time to show me all the things that I want to see. Why should I believe Him? How do I know that he did not just construct whatever I needed to see to bring me in to the fold? With all the talk of God and truth, to put this forth is… jaw dropping.

It seems that some won’t be happy until I am left angry with God and declare myself a full-blown atheist! :)

Explain yourselves, gentlemen.

Hmmm, Interesting thought process there Scrogg.

May I suggest that to be offended by being called a 'kid' by an all powerful God that we never will even partly understand is not what I would call truth, nor is it what I believe God meant. Rather, God (still the all powerful King of the universe that I will never fully understand) chooses to offer Himself as my loving, doting, and supportive benevolent Father; with a PERFECT parents' love (both the parent is perfect, and the love is perfect). Does that sound/feel a little better than what you said above? Hope so.

I think there may be too much material in this thread for me to comment on/answer in one or two posts. I will read along and reply as I believe will be helpful here.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well, he did plant all of those fossils just to have a grand guffaw at our confusion. :D :D

If there is a god, he surely has one hell of a mischievious sense of humor and is not at all the pious, uptight, stick in the mud as portrayed in the bible.

Of that type of God, I could approve.

Do you believe Geer that the "pious, uptight, stick in the mud as portrayed in the Bible" is the true representation of the God of the Judeo/Christian Bible? I submit to you that you have been deceived and have believed a lie. That is NOT the God I know. FAR from it! In fact, an opposite. But you, just like Scrogg, will have to choose to grow to a new understanding to see.

And as Robo said in his poet: That is a choice ONLY you can make.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Funny how they use the "we can't handle the truth of god" line to get them from out of a backed corner in a debate but they know the "truth of god" when it comes to major ethical issues of today. Strange how it can interchange and shape shift like that.

I have to admit I probably will come across as a bit direct (maybe overly blunt) on this one; because my faith in God is so important to me. Having said that:

I would suggest that you go up to the first post of the thread, and read a little. Note who started the thread, then note the tone of the first post, and then note the attitude of the ones that have stepped in and are willing to share their personal lives to help a brother along so to say.

I see a lot of humility in the posters, I see a lot of arrogance in the post I replied to.

But then want do I know???

[ga-hvac-tech]

I would like to offer a thought in the way of learning about God:

If any of you have a Bible, and would be interested in reading it; look up a book called 1 Corinthians in the new testament. As I remember it goes like this: Matt, mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, and then first and second Corinthians. We will look at first Corinthians. This is a letter that St Paul (at the time recognized as the more or less head of the Christian faith) wrote to the church at Corinth (a city). Paul was towards the end of his life, and wrote letters to many churches to encourage them, to give advise, and when necessary to scold them for their poor choices...and then encourage them to move beyond the choices (not a lot different than a parent does with their adult child when some really bizarre behavior surfaces).

In this book of 1 Corinthians, go to Chapter 13 and read the entire chapter. Then go back and read V 4-8A (the A means the first part of V8). This is God's deffinition of love. And this is the way God treats us. This is PERFECT love.

Now I think I suggested this in another thread:
1) Would I like someone to treat me that way?
2) How about the King of the universe that is all powerful treating me like that?
3) And could I reciprocate and treat others that way?

Questions I have struggled with. I am not posting this to point a finger at anyone; rather to encourage thought and discussion.

Thoughts on the Scripture and the questions?

[scrogdog]

I see a lot of humility in the posters, I see a lot of arrogance in the post I replied to.

First, I make a legitimate intellectual inquiry based on a comment made by someone who believes in god. Then, I'm told I am using rhetoric and acting arrogant.

Robo comes on and acts like the biggest pompous ass since Al Gore, and to you... all you can see is a lot of humility.

Thankfully we do not see such intolorence from other believers on this board. Like I said, Boot walks the walk. You and Robo ought to see someone about your vast superiority complexes.

The more I discuss with your flavor of believer, the gladder I am to not be associated with you. This is not exactly the first time you have gone there. What's the matter GA? Your argument so weak that there has to be more to it?

Pathetic. If I found God tomorrow, I would admit it to no one just to distance myself from your kind.

Please excuse me... the air in here has gotten quite bad. Have a nice day.

And you suggested the respect topic. It is to laugh.

[ga-hvac-tech]

First, I make a legitimate intellectual inquiry based on a comment made by someone who believes in god. Then, I'm told I am using rhetoric and acting arrogant.

Robo comes on and acts like the biggest pompous ass since Al Gore, and to you... all you can see is a lot of humility.

Thankfully we do not see such intolorence from other believers on this board. Like I said, Boot walks the walk. You and Robo ought to see someone about your vast superiority complexes.

The more I discuss with your flavor of believer, the gladder I am to not be associated with you. This is not exactly the first time you have gone there. What's the matter GA? Your argument so weak that there has to be more to it?

Pathetic. If I found God tomorrow, I would admit it to no one just to distance myself from your kind.

Please excuse me... the air in here has gotten quite bad. Have a nice day.

And you suggested the respect topic. It is to laugh.

Sorry you feel that way Scrog. I chose to step into this thread to answer your questions, and you get irritated at me because I reply to someone that steps in and smarts off w/out understanding the context of the entire thread (IMO). Not sure I understand what your point is here...

And is it respectful to step into a thread and smart off like that? The reason I stepped into this thread is that you posted one of my quotes at the top. You might want to know that I have been praying for you for months that God would stir within your 'heart' (that is, your mind/emotions), a desire to understand Him. Do you think He might be doing just that? No, I did not pray that God would 'make' you change. And God would not do that, He is a gentleman (read the passage I suggested above about God's love).

It was my intent to support you and your thread. I am sorry you do not feel supported. It may well be a personality thingy. Would you prefer that I step out and refrain from posting to your threads about God? If so, please just say so and I will not step in again until invited.

I would suggest that you reread my posts from the perspective of one that is trying to help.

The following is my opinion: It is a mistake to stereo-type a Christian. I have spent most of my life in churches and seen all kinds of personalities. But there is a common thread: The ones that walk with God (and IMO this is the minority of the churchgoers), have a common thread: they are SURRENDERED to the Lordship of God and Christ in their lives. This is the key. The shortcomings of our behavior are NOT the issue. It is the CHOICE to allow God to be Lord of my life. God can deal with behavior, lets remember He is not called God for nothing. If you had known me a decade or so ago, you would know that HE has dealt with a lot, and I am glad for it.

You see Scrog: This idea that Christians are perfect is a lie. We are just as messed up as the next guy. But we know that we are not rated nor judged by our God based on behavior. Just like a child is not loved or rejected by their parents based on behavior (well I hope not at least, that is not real love).

No, Christians usually change because they realize that in their own strength, they will NEVER make it. They submit to God as the Lord of their life, and slowly (ever sooo slowly), their lives start to take on the image of God. But it is not that stereo-typical image that the world expects.

All I can say is that I am at peace with God because I KNOW Him.

Guess it is time for me to 'respectfully' bow out and wait for you to ask me back in.

[scrogdog]

How do you support me, exactly, by claiming that my stance is arrogant?

As I said, you often choose to go this ugly route. Do you know what ad hominem is? Let me explain it to you. Ad hominem is the situation when your argument is so weak, that all you have left is to take down the character of your opponent.

That you choose to ignore this after I bought it up is stunning. No word of regret, just support of your unfounded attack.

You also chose to ignore the comments of Geer and JR Benny when they commented about you puffing out your chest and making threats with regards to your new powers which you have yet to recieve.

How old are you?

Power corrupts. You don't even have it yet and you are puffing out your chest.

Do us both a favor GA, ignore me and my posts. I want nothing more to do with you.

You are THE stereotype of a pompous intolerant Christian.

[ga-hvac-tech]

How do you support me, exactly, by claiming that my stance is arrogant?

O K guy, I think I got it: I did NOT say YOU Scrog are arrogant. I was referring to Braces and ONLY Braces. I am sorry that was not clear, my mistake for mis-communicating.

But as you wish Scrog.

And as far as the thingy about ARP: I did not see you step up to the line and volunteer to work on ARP. And I sent an Email to TPTB asking for guidance.

Do you realize what I have voluntarily done: I am intentionally placing myself in the line of fire to try to make a difference here at ARP. And I knew well that I would be both appreciated and hated for it. And it is possible that I may fail. But to sit on my A$$ and do nothing is simply NOT an acceptable action for me. Call it my personality if you will, but it is me.

And I will say it again: I do not see many others stepping up to the line.

It is time for me to go, I understand I am not welcome here.

Have a GREAT one Scrog. Seriously, I mean it: Have a GREAT weekend.

[RoBoTeq]

Robo comes on and acts like the biggest pompous ass since Al Gore,

Now that's just being mean spirited. I mean.....Al Gore?

[RoBoTeq]

How do you support me, exactly, by claiming that my stance is arrogant?

As I said, you often choose to go this ugly route. Do you know what ad hominem is? Let me explain it to you. Ad hominem is the situation when your argument is so weak, that all you have left is to take down the character of your opponent.

That you choose to ignore this after I bought it up is stunning. No word of regret, just support of your unfounded attack.

You also chose to ignore the comments of Geer and JR Benny when they commented about you puffing out your chest and making threats with regards to you new powers which you have yet to recieve.

How old are you?

Power corrupts. You don't even have it yet and you are puffing out your chest.

Do us both a favor GA, ignore me and my posts. I want nothing more to do with you.

You are THE stereotype of a pompous intolerant Christian.

What happened to you? I swear I've read this exact post full of whiny drivel years ago on the Internet Infidel site. Were you just pulling our collective legs with the common sense posts you used to make and are now showing how you duped us into thinking you were a rational thinking person rather then an argumentative twit who just keeps circular arguments spiraling into oblivion?

[scrogdog]

O K guy, I think I got it: I did NOT say YOU Scrog are arrogant. I was referring to Braces and ONLY Braces.

GA said earlier;


I would suggest that you go up to the first post of the thread, and read a little. Note who started the thread, then note the tone of the first post, and then note the attitude of the ones that have stepped in and are willing to share their personal lives to help a brother along so to say.

I suggest that you check again who made the OP.


What happened to you? I swear I've read this exact post full of whiny drivel years ago on the Internet Infidel site. Were you just pulling our collective legs with the common sense posts you used to make and are now showing how you duped us into thinking you were a rational thinking person rather then an argumentative twit who just keeps circular arguments spiraling into oblivion?

*Sigh* - nothing at all has happened to me Robo - except for what I told you. I have switched discussional tactics from science to philosophy.

If you don't like the philosophy, it would seem a lot more useful to explain why than to use comments like that I only use rhetoric in my posts now. What do you call what you posted?

Despite this, I still believe that you can do better than what you posted here. We have history. I have seen reason within you. I assure you that I do not make these posts to irritate you. I suppose if a young person said these things to you that you'd be a lot more patient.

You just do not care for my view that the bible was written by men. :) Ok, I see that. But, in ARP, can't we move past that and have a decent discussion on the topic? I can't ever remember posting to you what you said to me in this topic.

[scrogdog]

Now that's just being mean spirited. I mean.....Al Gore?

LMAO!

Ok... ok... you are not Al Gore. :)

[scrogdog]

I did not see you step up to the line and volunteer to work on ARP.

That's because it is not a volunteer position, but an elected one. I do not particularly want a position on the committee. However, if elected I WILL serve to the best of my abilty. I don't see it happeneing, btw, just a hypothetical.

Like a soldier who goes to war... I am willing to serve. Though I may not like what I have to do.

People who want power are scary.

[acmanko]

What bedevils me is not one of the so called Believers, who claim to know the truth, will step up and say what the truth really is. The Bible says creation ended on the seventh day, but one can clearly utilize one of mans more powerful telescopes and see that creation is still happening, unless the apparent expansion of the Universe is a result of simple math. the speed of sound from the big bang is just now reaching the outer realm of space and we can see today what actually happened 4.5 billion years ago in our solar system.The truth is, believers are myopic and misguided by false interpretations of a fairy tale.

[scrogdog]

The Bible says creation ended on the seventh day, but one can clearly utilize one of mans more powerful telescopes and see that creation is still happening

Could be. It could also be that things just "work" after God created (by his intent). For example... new stars being born out of nebulae... matter and gas... happens because of the physical laws that he set up, not necessarily that he needs to personally oversee the creation of each new star. :)

Who knows?

[acmanko]

Could be. It could also be that things just "work" after God created (by his intent). For example... new stars being born out of nebulae... matter and gas... happens because of the physical laws that he set up, not necessarily that he needs to personally oversee the creation of each new star. :)

Who knows? I recently did an experiment to create lif. I placed a big rock on my lawn and six days later I lifted it and sure enough life in the form of simple insects were there before my eyes. Did I create life or did it already exist and miracuosly find a safe place to to live. the same can be said for Earth did man just find a safe environment after God placed the rock or did we already exist and fly in from space. The Nazca Plains in Peru suggest we arrived from another place.

[scrogdog]

Fine. That still begs the question of where the extraterrestrials came from. That scenario could also mean that we are not alone in being God's "chosen".

That's called infinite regression. Sooner or later you have to explain the start of all things. Or, concede that reality always existed.

Same with God being everlasting. To me, either you accept that "stuff" doesn't need to be created or you don't. I can't see how one arbitrarily says that God doesn't need a "start", but we do... especially when you consider that ALL things that we think that we know about supernatural beings were invented by men. :)

[acmanko]

Fine. That still begs the question of where the extraterrestrials came from. That scenario could also mean that we are not alone in being God's "chosen".

That's called infinite regression. Sooner or later you have to explain the start of all things. Or, concede that reality always existed.

Same with God being everlasting. To me, either you accept that "stuff" doesn't need to be created or you don't. I can't see how one arbitrarily says that God doesn't need a "start", but we do... especially when you consider that ALL things that we think that we know about supernatural beings were invented by men. :)If men created all we know about supernatural being, wether those in space craft or those that talk from burning bushes, all other theorys are really hyphothoses with irrelevant outcomes, since all would revert to man.

[scrogdog]

Not necessarily. They may exist and we simply do not know the properties of such beings.

For all we know, God is perfectly capable of dying or ceasing to exist, whatever that means for a supernatural being.

If the bible is your sole guide, then you accept what it says. I say that the bible was written by men, therefore our ideas about God (even if he exists) and supernatural beings in general, were created by men. Most people would agree (except when speaking of the bible) that to use a single source for any intellectual inquiry, political, historical or scientific, is pretty much worthless.

You are saying that the extraterrestrials are supernatural beings?

[royc]

I think some in here need to read some of Zecharia Sitchin’s books.

Very enlighting stuff.

Roy

[musserb]

Not necessarily. They may exist and we simply do not know the properties of such beings.

For all we know, God is perfectly capable of dying or ceasing to exist, whatever that means for a supernatural being.

If the bible is your sole guide, then you accept what it says. I say that the bible was written by men, therefore our ideas about God (even if he exists) and supernatural beings in general, were created by men. Most people would agree (except when speaking of the bible) that to use a single source for any intellectual inquiry, political, historical or scientific, is pretty much worthless.

You are saying that the extraterrestrials are supernatural beings?

The bible is not just one source. It may be one book but it’s a compilation of many books, poems, letters, etc. written over centuries. The bible not only provides religious direction but historical facts as well. One still needs to be diverse, open minded and well versed in many sources.
I’m a simple person and don’t claim to be better than anyone else because I’m a Christian. I fully confess my faith that man was created by God, Jesus is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit reigns with us. Being a Christian to me simply means I have complete faith that Jesus was the Son of God and died for my sins. I try my best each day to do what’s pleasing to God but each day I’m still a sinner. Each day as a Christian is better than all the days I wasn’t. I’m focused on showing love, grace and compassion to others in a Godly way. And isn’t that what’s it’s all about? Even those that don’t accept Jesus as the Son of God can’t deny the teachings of Jesus. From the Gospel of Mark: </SPAN>Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 'There is no commandment greater than these." What a wonderful place this world would be if we could only love one another and live according the teachings of Jesus.

[chillbilly]

scrogdog

Who knows?

No one knows. Our intellect and reason are limited.
Faith is unbounded.

[acmanko]

Not necessarily. They may exist and we simply do not know the properties of such beings.

For all we know, God is perfectly capable of dying or ceasing to exist, whatever that means for a supernatural being.

If the bible is your sole guide, then you accept what it says. I say that the bible was written by men, therefore our ideas about God (even if he exists) and supernatural beings in general, were created by men. Most people would agree (except when speaking of the bible) that to use a single source for any intellectual inquiry, political, historical or scientific, is pretty much worthless.

You are saying that the extraterrestrials are supernatural beings? I too believe the Bible , written by men has its problems. Some of themen were drunks while other(those who tranlated KJB for instance) were translating under a penalty of death. and no supernatural does not exist, extraterrestrials do.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Below is a copy of Post # 22.

In that post, there is a quote of Braces$impact at the top, and a reply to it by Ga below.

I do not know how many times I have to say this so it will he heard clearly; unless someone(s) do not want to hear (???), but here goes one more time:

ALL (as in 100&#37; of) the post below Braces4impact was directed AT braces4impat, and NOBODY else (as in zero %), including Scrog. Now can one make it any more clear than that?

Now I have carefully apologized, I have carefully explained myself, and I have responded more times that I should have to 'go the extra mile' to clear up this mess.

Can we meet in the middle and let this go?



Quote:
Originally Posted by braces4impact http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=1575530#post1575530)
Funny how they use the "we can't handle the truth of god" line to get them from out of a backed corner in a debate but they know the "truth of god" when it comes to major ethical issues of today. Strange how it can interchange and shape shift like that.
(end of Braces)

Start of GA
I have to admit I probably will come across as a bit direct (maybe overly blunt) on this one; because my faith in God is so important to me. Having said that:

I would suggest that you go up to the first post of the thread, and read a little. Note who started the thread, then note the tone of the first post, and then note the attitude of the ones that have stepped in and are willing to share their personal lives to help a brother along so to say.

I see a lot of humility in the posters, I see a lot of arrogance in the post I replied to.

But then want do I know???

[ga-hvac-tech]

The bible is not just one source. It may be one book but it’s a compilation of many books, poems, letters, etc. written over centuries. The bible not only provides religious direction but historical facts as well. One still needs to be diverse, open minded and well versed in many sources.
I’m a simple person and don’t claim to be better than anyone else because I’m a Christian. I fully confess my faith that man was created by God, Jesus is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit reigns with us. Being a Christian to me simply means I have complete faith that Jesus was the Son of God and died for my sins. I try my best each day to do what’s pleasing to God but each day I’m still a sinner. Each day as a Christian is better than all the days I wasn’t. I’m focused on showing love, grace and compassion to others in a Godly way. And isn’t that what’s it’s all about? Even those that don’t accept Jesus as the Son of God can’t deny the teachings of Jesus. From the Gospel of Mark: </SPAN>Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 'There is no commandment greater than these." What a wonderful place this world would be if we could only love one another and live according the teachings of Jesus.

I agree with you on the part in bold! What a wonderful (and better) world it would be if folks would treat others the same way they want to be treated.

I would suggest another scripture to add: Romans 1:17, where St Paul said the Righteous shall live by faith... but not everyone agrees with me.

[braces4impact]

I have to admit I probably will come across as a bit direct (maybe overly blunt) on this one; because my faith in God is so important to me. Having said that:

I would suggest that you go up to the first post of the thread, and read a little. Note who started the thread, then note the tone of the first post, and then note the attitude of the ones that have stepped in and are willing to share their personal lives to help a brother along so to say.

I see a lot of humility in the posters, I see a lot of arrogance in the post I replied to.

But then want do I know???


If pointing out sophistry is arrogance then I'm the most arrogant. However I think most rational people will see there's nothing arrogant about my post especially since no one has interacted at all with the fact that I pointed out.

All of you guys (and you know who you are) spout off absolute certainties when it comes to various ethical issues of today but when it comes to critiquing of your beliefs you at first try to use some type of reasoning but inevidably you eventually lose and then you hide by attacking reason and certainty even though you think your beliefs are reasonable and certain.

The arrogance is by the ones who think others are stupid enough to pass this kind of hypocrisy over on. Or perhaps in your defence you are not consciously trying to be hypocritical. It's just that you are so deluded in your rhetoric you have yourselves fooled.

[chillbilly]

If pointing out sophistry is arrogance then I'm the most arrogant.
Well, when someone attemps to point out a supposed flawed method of argumentation, they must find a way to make their own argument believable.
You argue from the perspective that you somehow have a lock on superior reason when everyone knows that you don't.
You're mistaking arrogance with ignorance.


However I think most rational people will see there's nothing arrogant about my post especially since no one has interacted at all with the fact that I pointed out.
Again, I'm sure you love to think that you have some type of stellar rationale, but ..................you don't.


All of you guys (and you know who you are) spout off absolute certainties when it comes to various ethical issues of today but when it comes to critiquing of your beliefs you at first try to use some type of reasoning but inevidably you eventually lose and then you hide by attacking reason and certainty even though you think your beliefs are reasonable and certain.
LOL Take that paragraph and attach your name to it as well.
No one is attacking reason itself. What we are emphasizing is that your reasoning holds no more certainties than anyone else's.
If it did, you wouldn't feel so compelled to attempt to disprove other's beliefs because your impeccable reasoning skills would leave no doubt. :rolleyes:


The arrogance is by the ones who think others are stupid enough to pass this kind of hypocrisy over on. Or perhaps in your defence you are not consciously trying to be hypocritical. It's just that you are so deluded in your rhetoric you have yourselves fooled.
You've again made a perfect description of yourself and your own beliefs, while attempting to somehow differentiate yourself from the crowd.
You're entitled to your beliefs and you're even entitled to think that you have a grip on all of the uncertainties we face as a human race, but your beliefs do not necessarily indicate fact and hopefully you're intelligent enough to realize that.
Sheesh :rolleyes:

[scrogdog]

Below is a copy of Post # 22.

In that post, there is a quote of Braces$impact at the top, and a reply to it by Ga below.

I do not know how many times I have to say this so it will he heard clearly; unless someone(s) do not want to hear (???), but here goes one more time:

ALL (as in 100% of) the post below Braces4impact was directed AT braces4impat, and NOBODY else (as in zero %), including Scrog. Now can one make it any more clear than that?

Now I have carefully apologized, I have carefully explained myself, and I have responded more times that I should have to 'go the extra mile' to clear up this mess.

Can we meet in the middle and let this go?



Quote:
Originally Posted by braces4impact http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=1575530#post1575530)
Funny how they use the "we can't handle the truth of god" line to get them from out of a backed corner in a debate but they know the "truth of god" when it comes to major ethical issues of today. Strange how it can interchange and shape shift like that.
(end of Braces)

Start of GA
I have to admit I probably will come across as a bit direct (maybe overly blunt) on this one; because my faith in God is so important to me. Having said that:

I would suggest that you go up to the first post of the thread, and read a little. Note who started the thread, then note the tone of the first post, and then note the attitude of the ones that have stepped in and are willing to share their personal lives to help a brother along so to say.

I see a lot of humility in the posters, I see a lot of arrogance in the post I replied to.

But then want do I know???

All right, GA. Maybe I was just too pissed to see your "apology"... it seemed to me to be a defense instead. Apology accepted... we will move on.

[scrogdog]

The bible is not just one source.

Welcome to ARP. I hope you have a thick skin. ;)

Actually the bible IS one source. Much like a historical text of any nature... multiple sources are used and compiled in to a single work.

As a student of history I can assure you that ALL historical texts are biased, even though they are based on many sources. The reason for this is that everyone has an aganda... historians too. That's why I can still watch or read something on, say, the battle of the bulge, even though I know plenty about the battle. There is always something new to learn.. except with the bible. There is no counter-opinion. That's all she wrote.

The *compilers* of this information have agendas and are still *authors* in that they decide what to include and what not to. While I might consider the writings of a German tank commander on the Soviet front to be extremely valuable, I might also consider that his opinion that the Russians were bad at tank warfare is silly, due to the overwhelming evidence to the contrary from other sources.

Those who assembled the bible were supremely biased. Further, a group of biblical scholars got together to "edit" the source information in the bible. And full of human weakness and bias... they decided what was divinely inspired and what was not.

The bible *is* a single source. :)

[scrogdog]

What a wonderful (and better) world it would be if folks would treat others the same way they want to be treated.

Yup. And non-believers are as capable of it as believers are.

[scrogdog]

and no supernatural does not exist, extraterrestrials do.

Ok. where did *they* come from (in terms of origins of species... I don't care which planet :)).

[braces4impact]

LOL Take that paragraph and attach your name to it as well.
No one is attacking reason itself.


Wait a second...are you not the guy who said that contradictions exist b/c god can do anything?

And then here you are starting by saying you are not attacking reason but in the very next sentence you attack reason!



What we are emphasizing is that your reasoning holds no more certainties than anyone else's.

So if everyone's "reasoning" is on par with with everyones reasoning it then becomes watered down so much as to where "reason" has no meaning at all. ..But you are not attacking reason huh?



If it did, you wouldn't feel so compelled to attempt to disprove other's beliefs because your impeccable reasoning skills would leave no doubt. :rolleyes:



First your arrogance seeps out again by pretending to know what my internal convictions are as to why I post messages here. Then you attack reason again by assuming that if everyone is not convinced then it's not valid reasoning.

As for the rest of you nonsense it amounts to nothing more than a child saying, " No, I'm wright and you're wrong so there!".

[braces4impact]

Welcome to ARP. I hope you have a thick skin. ;)

Actually the bible IS one source. Much like a historical text of any nature... multiple sources are used and compiled in to a single work.

As a student of history I can assure you that ALL historical texts are biased, even though they are based on many sources. The reason for this is that everyone has an aganda... historians too. That's why I can still watch or read something on, say, the battle of the bulge, even though I know plenty about the battle. There is always something new to learn.. except with the bible. There is no counter-opinion. That's all she wrote.

The *compilers* of this information have agendas and are still *authors* in that they decide what to include and what not to. While I might consider the writings of a German tank commander on the Soviet front to be extremely valuable, I might also consider that his opinion that the Russians were bad at tank warfare is silly, due to the overwhelming evidence to the contrary from other sources.

Those who assembled the bible were supremely biased. Further, a group of biblical scholars got together to "edit" the source information in the bible. And full of human weakness and bias... they decided what was divinely inspired and what was not.

The bible *is* a single source. :)

wonderful explanation.. I wish there was a hands clapping emocon.

[chillbilly]

Wait a second...are you not the guy who said that contradictions exist b/c god can do anything?
No, that's not what I said.


And then here you are starting by saying you are not attacking reason but in the very next sentence you attack reason!
Huh? Read the post, Einstein.
"What we are emphasizing is that your reasoning holds no more certainties than anyone else's".
That's what I posted.
How does this attack reason? It simply indicates that there are no certainties and you have no patent on what is and is not reasonable.


So if everyone's "reasoning" is on par with with everyones reasoning it then becomes watered down so much as to where "reason" has no meaning at all. ..But you are not attacking reason huh?
Who said that everyone's reasoning skills were on par with everyone else's?
You're not comprehending the point.
Let me type slower for you....
Your reasoning skill(or lack of it) holds no more certainties than those you attempt to discredit with your so called evidence.


First your arrogance seeps out again by pretending to know what my internal convictions are as to why I post messages here. Then you attack reason again by assuming that if everyone is not convinced then it's not valid reasoning.
There is absolutely nothing arrogant about calling a troll a troll.
I'm arrogant, yet you hold your views up as the only ones that are founded in "reason".? :confused: :rolleyes:


As for the rest of you nonsense it amounts to nothing more than a child saying, " No, I'm wright and you're wrong so there!".
Oh poppycock. I've slapped your credibility in the kisser again and your best debating response is this? :o

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yup. And non-believers are as capable of it as believers are.

First, THX for meeting me in the middle. Glad that issue is closed.

Concerning your suggestion above: Give it a try. Lets see how close to 100% you (anyone) can get. Seriously, I will not be standing in judgement, as I KNOW in my own strength I will fail miserably given the same goal. But if one chooses to surrender control to the strength of the Spirit of Christ (indwells all believers); one can get mighty close...

And I admit I am a long way from being there... But heading in that direction by His grace.

[sline-dawg]

GA---- you willing to try out the dark side...?? Or is this just a one way adventure.....??? We wouldn't ask you to do anything you're not asking us to do.....:cool:



Already know the answer......been there, done that.....SAVED......:o


Some of us have tried your tactic too.....;)

[acmanko]

SAVED, what a hugh misconception, I know people who were SAVED more than once at the same chuerch and at different ones. Saved and tithing go a long way twoard the same conclusion. Tithe here and recieve the Lord but stop tithing and the finance committe points you to the backdoor.:mad:

[sline-dawg]

Well, bro, heaven and eternal happiness aren't cheap.....:o

[ga-hvac-tech]

SAVED, what a hugh misconception, I know people who were SAVED more than once at the same chuerch and at different ones. Saved and tithing go a long way twoard the same conclusion. Tithe here and recieve the Lord but stop tithing and the finance committe points you to the backdoor.:mad:

Problem is what you refer to above, while it does happen more than I wish it did, is NOT Scriptural... But until one chooses to study Scripture for themselves, they will not know that.

Not sure I understand Sline's comment in the previous post...
No, I am not interested in the dark side. Got a little too close to it (well, as close as a believer could go), back when I was mad at God and trying my best to go the opposite direction. No, the dark side is not for me. Living in 'the light' is a lot better place IMO.

[acmanko]

You can not have the Light without the Dark, If you believe in one than you have both to deal with.

[ga-hvac-tech]

You can not have the Light without the Dark, If you believe in one than you have both to deal with.

Lessee,

In physics, dark is the ABSENCE of light, if I remember???

In Spiritual things, darkness is the absence of 'light', Light being God's presence in this context. This is, of course, a Scriptural interpretation.

Now a worldly interpretation is that Satan is darkness, and God is Light. And to an un-believer, that is true. But ALL believers are God's Children, and Satan has to ask permission from God to do anything that would affect one of God's children.

[geerair]

If pointing out sophistry is arrogance then I'm the most arrogant. However I think most rational people will see there's nothing arrogant about my post especially since no one has interacted at all with the fact that I pointed out.

All of you guys (and you know who you are) spout off absolute certainties when it comes to various ethical issues of today but when it comes to critiquing of your beliefs you at first try to use some type of reasoning but inevidably you eventually lose and then you hide by attacking reason and certainty even though you think your beliefs are reasonable and certain.

The arrogance is by the ones who think others are stupid enough to pass this kind of hypocrisy over on. Or perhaps in your defence you are not consciously trying to be hypocritical. It's just that you are so deluded in your rhetoric you have yourselves fooled.The funny thing is that they don't even recognize this contradiction. I would say that this is proof positive that fundamental christianity rots the brain along with reasoning ability.

[geerair]

wonderful explanation.. I wish there was a hands clapping emocon.How about this?

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/icon_nworthy.gif

By the way, I agree that was a good post by scrog.

[geerair]

As for the rest of you nonsense it amounts to nothing more than a child saying, " No, I'm right and you're wrong so there!".There is that, but by and large your average fundy/conservative here is not capable of countering most arguments as presented, so they construct a strawman argument which is the only kind of argument equal to their intellectual capabilities. :eek:

[chillbilly]

The funny thing is that they don't even recognize this contradiction.
What contradiction are you referring to? If there were a contradiction and it was funny, why didn't you include one of those kindergarden smilies that accompany your post to illustrate your laugh at a fever pitch?? :rolleyes:


I would say that this is proof poitive that fundamental christianity rots the brain along with reasoning ability.
You are fresh out of bubble gum and "proof positive". ;)

[geerair]

And with that final bit of evidence, I rest my case.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Name calling from the left, as usual. When they cannot present a valid arguement, they resort to name calling.

A characteristic of a person that is more interested in promoting themselves than learning... :rolleyes:

[geerair]

Name calling from the left, as usual. No name calling, just accurate descriptions.

[braces4impact]

Yes Geerair, the rot in their minds runs deep. Chillbilly says in his latest reply to me,"there are no certainties" , all the while oblivious to the fact that he's uttering a certainty.

[sline-dawg]

Well, he's half right.....:p :p

[ga-hvac-tech]

No name calling, just accurate descriptions.

Strictly in your mind Geer; and not even the best vacuum pump could pull negative microns... :D

[geerair]

Yes Geerair, the rot in their minds runs deep. Chillbilly says in his latest reply to me,"there are no certainties" , all the while oblivious to the fact that he's uttering a certainty.Well, all you can do is laugh.

If the fundies could somehow muster the brain wattage to critically examine the tortured logic, the continuous denial and the vacuous apologetics that are required to maintain their beliefs, massive fountains of blood would erupt from their ears.

[geerair]

Strictly in your mind GeerBut such a beautiful mind.

[ga-hvac-tech]

But such a beautiful mind.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder... As I said: If you say so...

Oh wise one: Is there a word that person A can use to suggest a neutral position when person B is promoting themselves beyond their realm?

[geerair]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder... As I said: If you say so... Yes it is, and my mind has many beholders that see that beauty..





Oh wise one: Is there a word that person A can use to suggest a neutral position when person B is promoting themselves beyond their realm?No.

Person A hasn't the vocabulary.

[scrogdog]

First, THX for meeting me in the middle. Glad that issue is closed.

Concerning your suggestion above: Give it a try. Lets see how close to 100&#37; you (anyone) can get. Seriously, I will not be standing in judgement, as I KNOW in my own strength I will fail miserably given the same goal. But if one chooses to surrender control to the strength of the Spirit of Christ (indwells all believers); one can get mighty close...

And I admit I am a long way from being there... But heading in that direction by His grace.

Tell you what. Let's test your theory that with God one can do much better at this than without God.

You hunt for posts of mine where I called someone something or used an ad hominem attack against them. Then I will do the same with regards to you. We'll start a new topic, post our evidence, and see the result.

Sound good?

EDIT: You are welcome, btw. I apologize when I screw up as well and never hold a true grudge. :)