do contractors like it when you buy your own system?

[tizlinda]

I just had one quote (3 others scheduled) to completely change out my whole AC system, including ducts and plenum. It was my first ever look at what it would cost for such an enterprise. He quoted me for different trane and Bryant systems seer 13 to 15 (although he said the 13 still used Freon and if so then why would I bother). It was a lot of money, and I had done some research online for prices but didn't have any for Trane or Bryant (I figure they only deal with distributors?).

Anyway, I had him quote me just for the labor and parts (assuming I would buy my own compressor and furnace) and he had to call that one in. Without quoting anything I will say that they must have been charging (for the split air conditioner) anywhere from 2 to 4 times the price of Some of the brands I could purchase online (Rheem, goodman and others). Since I can't find the prices of these particular units (trane, bryant) I have no way of knowing if I was being overcharged or not, but after reading numerous posts on here and hearing clearly that the unit is less important than the installation I think saving a few thousand on the cost of the unit is the smarter way to go.

I will look at other estimates, but I wanted to know from you contractors/consumers if it is smart to pre-purchase the system in regards to cost savings, or is it going to make it too hard to find a good contractor?

[chadcar]

Don't supply the equipment. If you find somebody desperate enough to install it, you will still have warranty issues.

[Shophound]

The short answer is no, generally speaking, reputable contractors do not take well to the idea of installing equipment they did not purchase. Fly-by-night hacks, on the other hand, who are a dime a dozen, will accomodate you quite readily.

HVAC decision making should not be solely driven by price. You more or less get what you pay for. Go for quality, you'll save more over time than you pay up front now.

[joe8758]

Would you like someone to bring in their own steak to your restaurant if you were a cook? How about bringing in brake shoes to your local mechanic. Why would you want to cheapen the job. Contractors make some money from the mark-up of equipment, but you are essentially paying for their experience and knowledge in this field. I personally don't think you will find too many takers with this type of venture.

[the dangling wrangler]

Joe beat me to it!

[edward301]

I reccomend purchasing from a reputable contractor. You will have a
warranty, if reputable a quality installation, and someone you know will
be there if something goes wrong down the road.

[Mstrav]

you will get little suport for buying your own equipment here. Also good luck if theres a warranty issue. If I sell you a unit and it breaks i fix it and get reimbursed by the factory if its covered. If you buy it and I put it in you pay me everytime and you get to try and get reimbursed by the factory.

If you want to buy a chevy corvettte, and find one with no engine but brand new, and then find an engine on ebay and then bring it to the dealer to install for you, how do you think they are going to respond? what if the tranny goes out or somthing doesnt fit? who pays for that?

The brands you mentioned on line are junk for the most part, and if theres an issue its on you $$$$. we have licenses, insurance, tools, trucks recovery machines, commercials, phones, training, offfices etc.. to pay for and thats what mark up pays for.


later, matt

[RoBoTeq]

When you purchase the equipment through the contractor, you are buying more then just the equipment. You are also buying the support for that equipment through a network of the contractor and that contractor's distributor.

If something does go wrong with the equipment, the contractor already has it in his/her pricing to handle the servicing of having the failed part replaced in a timely manner with the distributor of that equipment. If a part fails on equipment purchased elsewhere's; how does the replacement procedure work?

Since the two brands you have mentioned both state that online Internet purchases of their equipment will be void of warranty, what makes you think this is at all a good idea? Even the manufacturer's of the equipment don't want other then professionals buying the equipment.

[dash]

The truth is,the price we quote,includes all the expenses,overhead,and anticipated profit.

So if you bought your own equipment,I would deduct my cost of the equipment,as I still need to make thesame amount,to stay in business.

I know prices can seem high,but you don't see many getting rich in this business,doing well ,but no Bill Gates types .

[tizlinda]

If I could spend 10K without it hurting I wouldn't have even asked this question.
Some of you have convinced me that its worth letting the contractor handle it for warranty issues and perhaps ease of install as well (familiarity). Maybe.....just maybe the one quote I had was an anomaly and others will come in substantially lower which brings me to another question.

Do most of you itemize your estimates? Because I had to ask what they charged for labor and deduct for my own estimate of what the unit cost.

As far as comparing estimates in terms of labor and installation I suppose I need to get references, but knowing what they are charging is helpful in comparisons. As well as what they are charging for the unit. If I am not going about this correctly then please advise. Since most of you (all?) are contractors then let me know what you think I should be privy to because whenever I make a big purchase like this I like to line up the different estimates/costs and make an intelligent decision based on what I know. However, after this first estimate, I don't know too much and had to extract what I do know. That seemed kinda shady to me and they seemed like a reputable contractor (I went through an online service and checked the BBB).

Are all contractors going to be this way? Will I have to ask for a breakdown? or will they continue to act as if they are hiding something. I get suspicious when people don't feel comfortable enough with their product to disclose such details. If they believe they are worth it then they should come clean IMO.

I really just believe I didn't get a very good salesman yesterday. Perhaps the company is a good one but their rep. just isn't. Your thoughts?

[RoBoTeq]

In most cases where consumers have tried to cheapen their HVAC system costs by either purchasing equipment themselves or even installing equipment themselves, they wind up paying more, not just in money but also in aggrevation, in the long run.

HVAC contractors sells completed HVAC systems, so no, they do not itemize. This is not a smorgasbord industry, you need the entire system in order to have cooling and heating. A system cost consists of a combination of equipment, other related parts, labor and warranty conditions. I have always walked away from consumers who insisted on having my system costs itemized because this is simply a ploy to try to beat the contractor down on specific items without taking into consideration the entire package that is required to complete a proper HVAC system.

[a/cpro]

I would not even consider buying your own eqipment.
nor would i install it for you.

[t527ed]

we would not install your unit.

we do not break down prices.

[tizlinda]

rationalize why you would not let the consumer know what they are paying for the main components and the cost of labor. I'm not asking for ten pages of itemization here, just two items......labor and parts. Are you saying you would only do business with a customer who doesn't care about what you are charging for labor and parts? I am not looking for the info to haggle down every aspect of the installment (I didn't even know you could haggle...should I be?) but to properly compare estimates. This doesn't seem fair?

[RoBoTeq]

rationalize why you would not let the consumer know what they are paying for the main components and the cost of labor. I'm not asking for ten pages of itemization here, just two items......labor and parts. Are you saying you would only do business with a customer who doesn't care about what you are charging for labor and parts? I am not looking for the info to haggle down every aspect of the installment (I didn't even know you could haggle...should I be?) but to properly compare estimates. This doesn't seem fair?

I understand what you are stating. You are not understanding my reply. I cannot think of how to get you to understand other then maybe to use another automotive analogy (I hate automotive analogies used for HVAC, but if it helps....);

Do you require a parts and labor breakdown on a car you are purchasing? It really is the same thing. The contractor is taking specific parts that he/she has determined will best suit the consumers needs and that contractor "manufactures" an HVAC system on site at your home. You are buying a system, not parts and paying for labor.

[acmech13]

besides your units cost you know duct work cost alot of money and time to make. i would laugh at u if you asked me to itenize your bill on what everything cost. im too busy doing work for non haggelers to deal with the bs. Plus you are paying for my experience. most of what you are paying for is the labor. installing central ac to a house that has never had it is like performing open heart surgery to your house. i once did have a customer buy his own unit, no one would install it for him. I felt bad for him so i put it in my labor cost more than it would have cost him to get everything from me.

[billva]

I went to the grocery store the other day for a can of peas. I asked the manager if he could break down the price into P&L.(peas and labor) He said no.

Then I went to McDonalds for lunch and asked the same question, I got the same answer.

I decided it was time for a latte from Starbucks, they didn't break it down either.

My doctor, nope.

My mechanic, nope.

My attorney, nope.

It's a flat rate world.

[RoBoTeq]

Just one other point of view; when I get calls from disgruntled HOs who have purchased their own equipment, they do not like what I usually have to tell them.

Since most system issues are application and installation related, a HO with a bad part that is being charged for that parts labor to change is the responsible party if they purchased the equipment. I get HOs that buy the equipmen themselves tell me they want someone else to pay for the labor. My response is; "you bought the equipment, so you are responsible for it." These HOs of course do not comprehend this and wind up spending a lot of time without their equipment operating while they try to get someone else to be responsible for the equipment that they have purchased.

HVAC equipment is not like buying a stereo. The final manufacturing of the system is done on site. The entity that buys the equipment becomes the responsible party unless there is proof from a qualified contractor, verified by a manufacturer's rep, that the equipment had a manufacturing fault.

[tizlinda]

I know I don't know all that goes on when installing. I'll admit, based on what you are saying, there must be a lot more than simply replacing the old compressor and furnace with the new one, although, I can't imagine it at all like assembling a car.

However, when I owned a painting business, I disclosed my labor costs (per hour estimate) and cost of supplies (I included depreciation on spray gun and other equipment, but those weren't disclosed). And since you like Automotive analogies, I always know the cost of the parts and labor when I get my brakes or anything else done on my car.

Don't lie, you like to know what your paying in labor and parts too. Do you want your painter to charge you double for a what you could walk into the store and pay for a gallon of paint, or your mechanic to do the same?

This is a ridiculous discussion, No way, by just saying that this is a "system" should you get away with not disclosing an "estimate" of the cost of the parts. You know how much your charging for labor vs parts without much thought because you've done it many times. Why can't you let the customer know. Again, I don't want to know what every nut and bolt costs. Keep it simple........labor $$$$ Parts $$$. I can't fathom why this is so difficult to do. It is almost like you feel the customer doesn't have a right to know how much you make per job. Why don't we, WE'RE PAYING YOU!

BTW, this was not directed at anyone in particular, but my general frustration towards this attitude that "we, unlike any other normal business that understands we need customers to survive, don't have to accomodate the customer in any way."

I could see this attitude if prices were standardized, but you and I know (from reading posts on here) that there are large discrepancies in prices and I don't know any other way to get to the bottom of it than disclosure.

[texas cooler]

FWIW I doubt any quality, licensed installer will install a system purchased by the HO. As far as a breakdown on parts and labor, for my business every part I install is figured on a flat rate. The flat rate has the labor, overhead, hours required, parts and sundry items cost built in.

You'll pay more for a first class job but you will only pay ONCE.

[acmech13]

you do know the parts price an auto mechanic is giving you is marked up.

[billva]

It's called getting more than one DETAILED estimate and comparing.

BTW, my painter is flat rate too.

If what you are looking for is profit, in my area most companies are shooting for 8% or so. If the job goes a little easier it may be 10%, if more difficult then 5%. It is one of the variables we do not know until things get going.

How as a painter do you know the exact hours you will be working and picking up supplies? Do you just give a random estimate of parts will be $X and labor may be 12-20 hrs?

[RoBoTeq]

I know I don't know all that goes on when installing. I'll admit, based on what you are saying, there must be a lot more than simply replacing the old compressor and furnace with the new one, although, I can't imagine it at all like assembling a car.

However, when I owned a painting business, I disclosed my labor costs (per hour estimate) and cost of supplies (I included depreciation on spray gun and other equipment, but those weren't disclosed). And since you like Automotive analogies, I always know the cost of the parts and labor when I get my brakes or anything else done on my car.

Don't lie, you like to know what your paying in labor and parts too. Do you want your painter to charge you double for a what you could walk into the store and pay for a gallon of paint, or your mechanic to do the same?

This is a ridiculous discussion, No way, by just saying that this is a "system" should you get away with not disclosing an "estimate" of the cost of the parts. You know how much your charging for labor vs parts without much thought because you've done it many times. Why can't you let the customer know. Again, I don't want to know what every nut and bolt costs. Keep it simple........labor $$$$ Parts $$$. I can't fathom why this is so difficult to do. It is almost like you feel the customer doesn't have a right to know how much you make per job. Why don't we, WE'RE PAYING YOU!

BTW, this was not directed at anyone in particular, but my general frustration towards this attitude that "we, unlike any other normal business that understands we need customers to survive, don't have to accomodate the customer in any way."

I could see this attitude if prices were standardized, but you and I know (from reading posts on here) that there are large discrepancies in prices and I don't know any other way to get to the bottom of it than disclosure.

Well, you just completely lost my respect for you. You don't know me well enough to call me a liar. If you did know me, you would know that lying makes me feel degraded so I don't do it if I can possibly avoid it. So, you are absolutely wrong about me wanting to know the details of what I pay for. When my truck is broke, all I want to know is how much is it going to cost for me to get it back no longer broke. If I want my walls painted another color, all I want to know is how much it is going to cost me for them to become another color. So no; I am not a liar and you are a horses behind for thinking you have the right to make that statement.

It is obvious that you came here already knowing the answer you wanted. you are not going to get that answer, or any other one from me. You are now just a waste of time that I thought I was being helpful with.

[tizlinda]

texas cooler,

your response makes the most sense in here.

Stop with the ridiculous analogies please...:)
Buying coffee from McDonalds isn't exactly the same thing
BTW, your Mechanic will gladly break it down for you and it should be on your receipt...his hourly charges are on the back wall if you can't find it on the receipt.

There is a lot of shadiness in the answers here, hiding behind analogies and skirting the question shows a lack of integrity, not what I'm looking for in anyone much less someone for a job this big. I hear a lot of, "Trust Me" in your tones, from what I understand, trusting you is the surest way to part with my money. Without giving me what i want, Texas Cooler at least gave a straight answer as to why...and its actually a believable one that I accept.

As I said before, I did get a labor breakdown from a reputable company already, so its not impossible. You all have actually answered my question though so I appreciate all your responses. I have learned that you (for the most part), make such an ungodly amount of money that you are embarrassed to disclose it to your customers. You should all use Texas' idea and at least you would have a real reason not to.

[allstar08]

This is a very competitive industry, and as contractors we can not afford to gouge our customers. On the other hand we need to make money. The only way I would touch a job where the customer had his own gear, would be time and material and no bid price. In conclusion, get the rest of your bids and make a choice.

[jrbenny]

So, you are given answers. You don't like them. So, let's just insult the contractors here. Hmmm. Not the best way to welcome yourself to the forum.

I'm closing this thread as it's going no where except a path of insults.