Does ANYONE understand this?

[Tool-Slinger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6754387.stm

I have spent considerable time trying to get all of the middle-eastern problems. I am about out of patience, really, I mean OUT OF PATIENCE. I amin the top 10% of trying, so do not bash me for my effort.

[bootlen]

I doubt ANYONE can understand it...except Scripture says there will be no peace in Jerusalem (meaning Israel) until Christ's second coming.

Hold on to your hats, boys and girls. You're in for a heck of a ride.

[The Doctor]

The elements (Fatah and Hamas)are comprised of bloodthirsty men. What more needs to be said? How about the part where Israel is just another excuse to shed more blood?
Has it ever occurred to these folks that sometimes a live dog is better than a dead lion? Where's the insult in that?

[coordinatesales]

Israel just had a change of power and it was peaceful. It seems like every time the Muslims are involved in a change of power, it's bloody. Israel gave up Gaza and it was supposed to be all peace and love but instead, without Israelis to fight, the people there turned on each other. Now, there's rumors that they give up the Golan Heights. BIG MISTAKE!

This also concerns me:

Terrorists claim CIA files siezed (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56174)

[James 3528]

Hamas is basically Iran. Smoke Iran



Thank you Jimmy Carter

[Tool-Slinger]

Hamas is basically Iran. Smoke Iran



Thank you Jimmy Carter
Correct, I had not realized Iran was funding them until I looked it up.
Same as hezbolla.

Reasons to 'smoke iran' are mounting daily.

[Tool-Slinger]

Israel just had a change of power and it was peaceful. It seems like every time the Muslims are involved in a change of power, it's bloody. Israel gave up Gaza and it was supposed to be all peace and love but instead, without Israelis to fight, the people there turned on each other. Now, there's rumors that they give up the Golan Heights. BIG MISTAKE!

This also concerns me:

Terrorists claim CIA files siezed (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56174)
That's the thing, they turn on each other. Why not Give up Golan and let them have it out among themselves there? Just maintain the border?

[glennac]

That's the thing, they turn on each other. Why not Give up Golan and let them have it out among themselves there? Just maintain the border?

If Isreal really wants peace they should also pull out of the West Bank and leave the Palatenians alone and secure their borders and promise retaliation if they are attacked.

[coordinatesales]

That's the thing, they turn on each other. Why not Give up Golan and let them have it out among themselves there? Just maintain the border?

Golan is high ground and that makes it militarily strategic ground. It's also been calmer and more economically prosperous so I understand why most Israeli's don't want to give it up to Syria even if their leaders might do so.

The other danger is who takes over and where. Fatah is at least secular, while Hamas is not. Fatah at least pretends to be willing to allow Israel to exist, Hamas openly cries for the destruction of Israel and of course Syria is no friend of Israel either.

[bootlen]

If Isreal really wants peace they should also pull out of the West Bank and leave the Palatenians alone and secure their borders and promise retaliation if they are attacked.

Right.

Uh-huh. And if we want peace, we should pull out of CA, AZ, NM,and TX, and leave teh Mexicans alone and promise retaliation if they cross the new border.

Right.

[Tool-Slinger]

I was thinking exactly like Glennac, exactly.
I may mis-understand something here ....
Is it possible to remove the palestinians from the west-bank or gaza? If not, would it not be better to abandon it or just seal it off with a wall and promise 100-fold retaliation if any missles come over? I thought that was the whole {unspoken} idea when israel left the gaza. Palestinian in-fighting is just a bonus for israel.

[whec720]

How about smoking the entire M.E.:D





That ought to do it........:p




Read the Bible, if you are looking for the outcome to this mess.

[bb]

Oh, where to start.... To begin with the land of Israel didn't just become the Jews' in 1948, it was the Jews long long before.

Point 2- Muslims have a long history of violent takeovers of land. Their so called religion of peace isn't peaceful to anyone except Muslims. Google Christian persecution.

Their religion of violence is so bastardized. Example: -Note the many factions of their religion and that they fight one another. (Iran Shi'ites and Iraqi Sunnis)

-Their religious bigshots (Imans) are allowed to issue fatwas or religious edicts (laws) by the 1000's, which due to the number of Imans, turns acceptable behavior (to their populous) into insanity.

Saudi Arabia doesn't help either funding the Wahhabism here in America that teaches the bastardized version of extreme Islam.

Anymore, I don't believe that there is a non-bastardized Islam, religion of peace, yada yada yada.


If we do have to go into Iran because of the Democrats' unwillingness to deal with them severely, then we better gear up for a long battle as it will either have 1 of 2 consequences. 1: We blast their asses into oblivion so that the other radicals will say "Hey Omar, Theys got Balls, We Better Back OFF. NO?"

Or 2. They Unbastardize and become a Muslim UNIT and create Hell on Earth.

I will take Door Number 1.

[whec720]

I'm glad others see Islam for what it is, hateful and destructive. I have yet to see any Muslim prove to me, that this is a religion of peace.

[Tool-Slinger]

Golan was a dumb thing for me to bring-up.
Completely different issue. Not even occupies by muslims, My mistake.

[Tool-Slinger]

I'm glad others see Islam for what it is, hateful and destructive. I have yet to see any Muslim prove to me, that this is a religion of peace.
I am not here to defend islam, I was just miffed by the in-fighting and could not make heads or tails of it. I think james had the critical point [hamas funded by iran]. Looks to me like a preperation for another proxy front in the south, as is hezbolla in the north. That makes sense. More iranian shenanigans, they just are not going to let-up! They also supply insurgecies/terrorists in iraq and afganistan.

[whec720]

All true. Name one Muslim publicly speaking out against Iran's actions. Many Muslims silently support the destruction of the west and the infidels. Non-believers either convert to Islam or die. That is the way it has always been. You're are right, Iran will never give up. It is their duty as a Muslim to do this.

[glennac]

Right.
Uh-huh. And if we want peace, we should pull out of CA, AZ, NM,and TX, and leave teh Mexicans alone and promise retaliation if they cross the new border.
Right.

Bootlen, nobody dislikes the Muslim religion more than I. I think the Crusaders got a bad rap. They never should have retreated. Anyhow the West Bank is not part of Israel. When we defeated Japan we occupied Okinawa and we finally gave it back even though we had lots of valuable Air Force, Naval and Army bases there. CA, TX and so on are part of the US not Mexico. Israel should give it back just like we did Okinawa and as far as that goes we did the same in the Philippines after we defeated the Spanish.

[bootlen]

Anyhow the West Bank is not part of Israel.

Ya better go back and look at the facts, Glenn. It most definitely is part of Israel. Saying it is not does not change anything.

When we defeated Japan we occupied Okinawa and we finally gave it back even though we had lots of valuable Air Force, Naval and Army bases there. CA, TX and so on are part of the US not Mexico. Israel should give it back just like we did Okinawa and as far as that goes we did the same in the Philippines after we defeated the Spanish.

The West Bank has been part of Israel from Israel's beginning. I recommend you pull out the Bible for confirmation.

As to the balance of your post, I am in total agreement.

[The Doctor]

Anyhow the West Bank is not part of Israel.

Ya better go back and look at the facts, Glenn. It most definitely is part of Israel. Saying it is not does not change anything.

When we defeated Japan we occupied Okinawa and we finally gave it back even though we had lots of valuable Air Force, Naval and Army bases there. CA, TX and so on are part of the US not Mexico. Israel should give it back just like we did Okinawa and as far as that goes we did the same in the Philippines after we defeated the Spanish.

The West Bank has been part of Israel from Israel's beginning. I recommend you pull out the Bible for confirmation.

As to the balance of your post, I am in total agreement.
Boot, this nation of Israel was created in 1948 by the U.N., was it not? If God cut that nation loose and the "Israel" of the Bible now refers to those who He chooses to save, then what's all the fuss about land that the Arabs, Philistines, and Muzzies want to possess?
Those three groups will continue to kill each other and other people, including Israel as long as they live. They're bloodthirsty.
What does that have to do with a nation spoken of in the Bible? Does that necessitate that we spend our blood and treasure defending it?

[bootlen]

Boot, this nation of Israel was created in 1948 by the U.N., was it not? If God cut that nation loose and the "Israel" of the Bible now refers to those who He chooses to save, then what's all the fuss about land that the Arabs, Philistines, and Muzzies want to possess?
Those three groups will continue to kill each other and other people, including Israel as long as they live. They're bloodthirsty.
What does that have to do with a nation spoken of in the Bible? Does that necessitate that we spend our blood and treasure defending it?

Sorry, Doc, I'm just one to not argue with God...at least not anymore. The nation of Israel was established about 5,000 years ago by God Himself. And that same God says they will not pass till His will in this life is done. I tend to believe Him.

As to the U.N., it is nothing more than a self-aggrandizing body of cow dung.

[The Doctor]

Sorry, Doc, I'm just one to not argue with God...at least not anymore. The nation of Israel was established about 5,000 years ago by God Himself. And that same God says they will not pass till His will in this life is done. I tend to believe Him.

As to the U.N., it is nothing more than a self-aggrandizing body of cow dung.

If God uses the timeline of the "creation" of the nation in 1948(or whatever year that was exactly), to signal the coming of part of His divine plan, then I would not even consider arguing with God worth the effort.
Why not though, take the people out of there and let the bloodthirsty Arabs, Philistines, and whoever else can fire AK's wipe each other out? That way the people of Israel can be preserved, and the Arabs will make known what some already know. That is, they just like killin'.

[hvac1000]

We have to take care when we bomb the Middle East. We do not want to nuke the oil and make it worthless.

[bootlen]

If God uses the timeline of the "creation" of the nation in 1948(or whatever year that was exactly), to signal the coming of part of His divine plan, then I would not even consider arguing with God worth the effort.
Why not though, take the people out of there and let the bloodthirsty Arabs, Philistines, and whoever else can fire AK's wipe each other out? That way the people of Israel can be preserved, and the Arabs will make known what some already know. That is, they just like killin'.

I don't have a problem with your plan...except...it's not God's plan. We are just called to be peacemakers. And we are called to be friends of Israel.

[RoBoTeq]

Sorry, Doc, I'm just one to not argue with God...at least not anymore. The nation of Israel was established about 5,000 years ago by God Himself. And that same God says they will not pass till His will in this life is done. I tend to believe Him.

As to the U.N., it is nothing more than a self-aggrandizing body of cow dung.

More like 4,000 years ago if we are using Abraham as a starting point. Abraham was given the promise of the land now known as Palestine by God. Both Jews and Arab Muslims claim this land right through Abraham. Jews have made the claim since the beginning of Judaism about 4,000 years ago and the Muslims caught up with the idea about 1,400 years ago with the Abrahamic connection claimed by the stories from Mohammed.

As far as todays Palestinians having any rights, the best they can claim is the Muslim rationale. There never were ancient Palestinians. The name "Palestine" comes from the Philistine people. The Philistines (whose name is understood to mean "invaders" in Hebrew) occupied the southern coast of the region disappearing as a distinct group by the Assyrian period.

Todays Palestinians are a group of radical Muslims attempting to take over a land that has more then 2,300 years of promised ownership to it before any Arab came up with the Islamic idea to jump the Jewish claim.

Muslims are a parasitical infestation that has been stealing land in the name of the Jewish patriarch Abraham for centuries. Muslims should have been dealt with better every time their infestation has spread through violent takeover in the past, but was not. Maybe we will have learned enough to put an end to this evil empire this time around.

I do believe that President Bush understands what is going on and what needs to be done about it. Hopefully our next president will also understand so the world does not once again allow the Islamic infection to humanity continue to fester around the world.

[RoBoTeq]

We have to take care when we bomb the Middle East. We do not want to nuke the oil and make it worthless.

Ironically, there is no oil in Israel.

[joeywrists]

not to rain on anyones parade but the problem is religion in genral. if you want to believe theres a higher being or power then believe it but dont read an assinine book about it and take every word as fact and say that everyone else is wrong that would be stupidity

[Tool-Slinger]

'''the problem is religion in genral.''''

USA is founded upon religious principals and ideology, are you a dolphin?

EEEeeEEEEKKKeeeee

[Tool-Slinger]

More like 4,000 years ago if we are using Abraham as a starting point. Abraham was given the promise of the land now known as Palestine by God. Both Jews and Arab Muslims claim this land right through Abraham. Jews have made the claim since the beginning of Judaism about 4,000 years ago and the Muslims caught up with the idea about 1,400 years ago with the Abrahamic connection claimed by the stories from Mohammed.

As far as todays Palestinians having any rights, the best they can claim is the Muslim rationale. There never were ancient Palestinians. The name "Palestine" comes from the Philistine people. The Philistines (whose name is understood to mean "invaders" in Hebrew) occupied the southern coast of the region disappearing as a distinct group by the Assyrian period.

Todays Palestinians are a group of radical Muslims attempting to take over a land that has more then 2,300 years of promised ownership to it before any Arab came up with the Islamic idea to jump the Jewish claim.

Muslims are a parasitical infestation that has been stealing land in the name of the Jewish patriarch Abraham for centuries. Muslims should have been dealt with better every time their infestation has spread through violent takeover in the past, but was not. Maybe we will have learned enough to put an end to this evil empire this time around.

I do believe that President Bush understands what is going on and what needs to be done about it. Hopefully our next president will also understand so the world does not once again allow the Islamic infection to humanity continue to fester around the world.
I am sorry to see this thread to disintegrate into 4,000 year old arguments. Israel can be perfectly justified in much less than 100. Muslims do not need their history anylized, just look at what they do today,.. that is damnation enough. Most mulslims are basic folks, decent. Their religion is in obvious tatters. They are killing themselves, hence the original post. There is a political move behind this, hence the original post.

Respectfully, if you guys want to debate the acopolypse, I would like it, as I also read the bible and I believe it, but will one of you PLEASE start a new thread? Where are you Bootlen?

[Tool-Slinger]

''''We are just called to be peacemakers.''''

Was there not something about "breaking the jaw of the wicked"?

[Tool-Slinger]

Oh, where to start.... To begin with the land of Israel didn't just become the Jews' in 1948, it was the Jews long long before.

Point 2- Muslims have a long history of violent takeovers of land. Their so called religion of peace isn't peaceful to anyone except Muslims. Google Christian persecution.

Their religion of violence is so bastardized. Example: -Note the many factions of their religion and that they fight one another. (Iran Shi'ites and Iraqi Sunnis)

-Their religious bigshots (Imans) are allowed to issue fatwas or religious edicts (laws) by the 1000's, which due to the number of Imans, turns acceptable behavior (to their populous) into insanity.

Saudi Arabia doesn't help either funding the Wahhabism here in America that teaches the bastardized version of extreme Islam.

Anymore, I don't believe that there is a non-bastardized Islam, religion of peace, yada yada yada.


If we do have to go into Iran because of the Democrats' unwillingness to deal with them severely, then we better gear up for a long battle as it will either have 1 of 2 consequences. 1: We blast their asses into oblivion so that the other radicals will say "Hey Omar, Theys got Balls, We Better Back OFF. NO?"

Or 2. They Unbastardize and become a Muslim UNIT and create Hell on Earth.

I will take Door Number 1.
Bashing miuzzies is like shooting fish in a barrell. There are many factions fighting among themselves and it is a complicated issue. I ask no opinion of muslims, just the understanding of the divisions.

[Tool-Slinger]

All true. Name one Muslim publicly speaking out against Iran's actions. Many Muslims silently support the destruction of the west and the infidels. Non-believers either convert to Islam or die. That is the way it has always been. You're are right, Iran will never give up. It is their duty as a Muslim to do this.
For the love of GOD, will you please look at this politically for a moment?
Iran is not islam.
I believe islam is parasitical in nature, but the topicis political.

[bootlen]

I am sorry to see this thread to disintegrate into 4,000 year old arguments.

It came up about right to occupy the land. That right is 4,000 years old (I will yield to Robo on this although I think 5,000 is pretty close...but it really matters not).

Where are you Bootlen?

Right here. Whatcha need?

[bootlen]

''''We are just called to be peacemakers.''''

Was there not something about "breaking the jaw of the wicked"?

I don't remember that terminology but in order to keep peace, sometimes ya haft bust a few heads. You know...get rid of the riff-raff. And there is nothing more "riff-raff" than a so-called Palestinian.

[bootlen]

For the love of GOD, will you please look at this politically for a moment?
Iran is not islam.
I believe islam is parasitical in nature, but the topicis political.

That's the problem now, tool. We (non-ME'sters) have been trying to bring peace to the ME through political negotiations. It is not a political problem/issue.

And that is why a Biblical perspective is important. Will man ever bring peace to the ME? No.

[The Doctor]

I don't have a problem with your plan...except...it's not God's plan. Touche, or should I say Amen. :D
We are just called to be peacemakers. I don't think the Republican party got the message.
And we are called to be friends of Israel.That would be spreading which message? The gospel or the neocon version?
Furthermore, I would ask you to document this call to be friends of Israel. And please go further than "pray for the peace of Jerusalem". (Please realize Boot, that I'm wanting to take a harder look at our foreign policy as it relates to Biblical injunctions to do this or that.) Now as a strategic ally from man's perspective, sure, let's provide support to Israel. Just don't make some spooky exercise out it talking about Abraham and Ishmael, etc.

[Tool-Slinger]

That's the problem now, tool. We (non-ME'sters) have been trying to bring peace to the ME through political negotiations. It is not a political problem/issue.

And that is why a Biblical perspective is important. Will man ever bring peace to the ME? No.
Okay, expand the concept for a moment,... hamas fighting fatah / sunnis fighting shia / hezbulla fighting lebaneese / al-queerda fighting anyone with a govornment:

I think the biblical perspective does not focus on muslim in-fighting. We cannot solve their 7th century religious problems, so we are forced to deal with issues politically and militarily.

Alot of the biblical interperentations deal with the end-times, could be 5000 years from now, nobody knows.

[Tool-Slinger]

I don't remember that terminology but in order to keep peace, sometimes ya haft bust a few heads. You know...get rid of the riff-raff. And there is nothing more "riff-raff" than a so-called Palestinian.
I think the palestinians are tools. Combined IQ of about 32. Iran is pushing them over the edge now. Other arab states are complicit or helpful with their hatred of israel.

[Tool-Slinger]

''''It came up about right to occupy the land.''''''

Arguments over right to occupy the land[israel] are irrevelant beyond past 100 years. Dedating the 4 or 5,000 year histrory is playing into the hands of the enemy. As a Texas land-owner, do I debate comanches about rightful ownership? No. To entertain the concept is opening up a pandoras box of possibilities. It is not worth arguing.

Palestinians need to wake-up and realize the current political boundries, forget past claims and move on.

[glennac]

Gentlemen, The Palistinians are not all Muslims. A lot are Christians especially on the West Bank. Currently they are being hounded by radical Muslims and Isreal is no friend of them either. They have lived there since the time of Jesus. The Armenians (they are Christian Arabs) still speak the language which Jesus spoke. They would like to live in peace again before this whole thing blew up with the Isreali settlements on the West Bank.

[Tool-Slinger]

Gentlemen, The Palistinians are not all Muslims. A lot are Christians especially on the West Bank. Currently they are being hounded by radical Muslims and Isreal is no friend of them either. They have lived there since the time of Jesus. The Armenians (they are Christian Arabs) still speak the language which Jesus spoke. They would like to live in peace again before this whole thing blew up with the Isreali settlements on the West Bank.
Thank you for that input. That answers to my original post [/confusion] .

New news has since come in, looks like fatah may end-up centralized in west-bank,... and hamas in gaza.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070616/D8PPU6U00.html

Unless I am missing something, I see this as good news. I like the 'distinction'.
The radicals escape justice by hiding among innocents, the more concentrated they are, the better. Secular fatah can hardly modernize with the hamas integration. I see the split as an evolutionary neccessity perhaps?

[bootlen]

Furthermore, I would ask you to document this call to be friends of Israel. And please go further than "pray for the peace of Jerusalem". (Please realize Boot, that I'm wanting to take a harder look at our foreign policy as it relates to Biblical injunctions to do this or that.)

Genesis 12:3.

[bootlen]

Gentlemen, The Palistinians are not all Muslims. A lot are Christians especially on the West Bank. Currently they are being hounded by radical Muslims and Isreal is no friend of them either. They have lived there since the time of Jesus. The Armenians (they are Christian Arabs) still speak the language which Jesus spoke. They would like to live in peace again before this whole thing blew up with the Isreali settlements on the West Bank.

Palestinians are the social outcasts of most Arab countries. They have been made to leave their homeland when they tried to return. The are the dregs of Arab society.

[bootlen]

Okay, expand the concept for a moment,... hamas fighting fatah / sunnis fighting shia / hezbulla fighting lebaneese / al-queerda fighting anyone with a govornment:

I think the biblical perspective does not focus on muslim in-fighting. We cannot solve their 7th century religious problems, so we are forced to deal with issues politically and militarily.

Alot of the biblical interperentations deal with the end-times, could be 5000 years from now, nobody knows.

None of that changes the fact that it is NOT a political issue. You can put in any leader you want and either side can bow the knee to the other and one will still want to kill the other.

[bootlen]

I think the palestinians are tools. Combined IQ of about 32. Iran is pushing them over the edge now. Other arab states are complicit or helpful with their hatred of israel.

Of course. Exactly right.

[Tool-Slinger]

''''''Muslims are the social outcasts of most Arab countries. They have been made to leave their homeland when they tried to return. The are the dregs of Arab society.'''''''

Dd you mean to say palestinians?

[bootlen]

Arguments over right to occupy the land[israel] are irrevelant beyond past 100 years. Dedating the 4 or 5,000 year histrory is playing into the hands of the enemy. As a Texas land-owner, do I debate comanches about rightful ownership? No. To entertain the concept is opening up a pandoras box of possibilities. It is not worth arguing.

God did not promise any land to any Indian tribe as far as I know. You have anything on that? Neither did He promise a Messiah through any but Israel. Neither did He say His will on earth would be accomplished by any nation other than through Israel.

Palestinians need to wake-up and realize the current political boundries, forget past claims and move on.

The need to wake up and give offerings of thanks to God and to Israel for not destroying them outright.

[bootlen]

''''''Muslims are the social outcasts of most Arab countries. They have been made to leave their homeland when they tried to return. The are the dregs of Arab society.'''''''

Dd you mean to say palestinians?

Yeah. My bad. Palestinians. I'll go back and edit that.

[Tool-Slinger]

None of that changes the fact that it is NOT a political issue. You can put in any leader you want and either side can bow the knee to the other and one will still want to kill the other.
Concerning hamas and hezbolla and al queda, I see it as a military issue.

Iran, I see as a political issue, [probably needing a military correction].

I agree religion is the underlying motivation for the contests, but I fail to see any religious 'solution' or religious way to deal with the problems. [unless it be that jaw-breaking reference I mentioned earlier, somewhere in Job]

[bootlen]

Concerning hamas and hezbolla and al queda, I see it as a military issue.

Iran, I see as a political issue, [probably needing a military correction].

I agree religion is the underlying motivation for the contests, but I fail to see any religious 'solution' or religious way to deal with the problems. [unless it be that jaw-breaking reference I mentioned earlier, somewhere in Job]

Reasonable reasoning. But politics will be a waste of time in the long haul. Arabs DO understand a 20# sledge against the temple, though.

[Tool-Slinger]

'''''''God did not promise any land to any Indian tribe as far as I know. You have anything on that? Neither did He promise a Messiah through any but Israel. Neither did He say His will on earth would be accomplished by any nation other than through Israel.'''''''

I accept that, but most of the world will not.

''''They [palestinians] need to wake up and give offerings of thanks to God and to Israel for not destroying them outright.''''

EXACTLY!
During the shake-up of the ottoman empire collapse, jews fled or were run-out of muslim areas and made a new home in israel. Muslim palestinians need to do the same thing outside of israel. The culprits preventing this are the arab nations that will not accept them. Israel is blameless in these 'refugee-camp' situations. I hope current events help shed klight on that fact.

[bootlen]

'''''''God did not promise any land to any Indian tribe as far as I know. You have anything on that? Neither did He promise a Messiah through any but Israel. Neither did He say His will on earth would be accomplished by any nation other than through Israel.'''''''

I accept that, but most of the world will not.

Any real reason, temporal or eternal, why I should worry about that?

[Tool-Slinger]

Reasonable reasoning. But politics will be a waste of time in the long haul. Arabs DO understand a 20# sledge against the temple, though.
Don't be so quick to give up on politics, it is working in our favor in saudi, jorden, quatar, kuwait, and some others. 20# sledges are still needed in many others. I thought glennac made a really good point awile ago with the palestinian christians,... this is a complicated issue. That helps explain my original post and why I am having such a hard time getting my head around it all.

[bootlen]

Don't be so quick to give up on politics, it is working in our favor in saudi, jorden, quatar, kuwait, and some others. 20# sledges are still needed in many others. I thought glennac made a really good point awile ago with the palestinian christians,... this is a complicated issue. That helps explain my original post and why I am having such a hard time getting my head around it all.

Israel is not without its faults...I don't deny that. But they are struggling to maintain national sovereignty, with or without our or anyone else's help and with or without Palestinian Christians. They should not be faulted for that.

[Tool-Slinger]

Israel is not without its faults...I don't deny that. But they are struggling to maintain national sovereignty, with or without our or anyone else's help and with or without Palestinian Christians. They should not be faulted for that.
I agree with your post. And I think this is why[one reason] the political angle is so important. Isarael MUST be accepted politically, as a sovergn nation. Hamas does not do so.

I found a short, but good summary on the current situation..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/14/wgaza314.xml

Helpful, but the last sentence in that was about 180 degrees WRONG by my opinion.

Maybe the west bank has a political solution, gaza military solution? It needs some time, let the palestinians choose sides... many of them are not in their preferred territory of allegiance.

[bootlen]

I agree with your post. And I think this is why[one reason] the political angle is so important. Isarael MUST be accepted politically, as a sovergn nation. Hamas does not do so.

I found a short, but good summary on the current situation..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/14/wgaza314.xml

Helpful, but the last sentence in that was about 180 degrees WRONG by my opinion.

Maybe the west bank has a political solution, gaza military solution? It needs some time, let the palestinians choose sides... many of them are not in their preferred territory of allegiance.

Israel is not a sovereign nation for political reasons. It is a sovereign nation because God keeps it that way. It matters not how the world perceives them. I referred Doc to Gen. 12:3. Check it out.

[Tool-Slinger]

'''''''God did not promise any land to any Indian tribe as far as I know. You have anything on that? Neither did He promise a Messiah through any but Israel. Neither did He say His will on earth would be accomplished by any nation other than through Israel.'''''''

I accept that, but most of the world will not.

Any real reason, temporal or eternal, why I should worry about that?
I admire your faith and clarity of direction, but we have to work within a frame-work of political bindings. I agree with you on the religious angle, but that gets us nowhere on this topic.

Example:
If arguing the comanche/Texas land issue, there are many historians who claim that the indians rejected any concept of land ownership what-so-ever. Never-minding the fact comanches ran out the apaches who were here first. If we get into that debate, many mexicans feel like we 'stole' Texas from mexico. If that were true, then it is also true that mexico 'stole' it from spain. You see my point? We have to deal with the political/economic/military realities of the day.

As a nation, we have to deal with middle-eastern retards whether we like it or not. They reject christianity for the most part. They will not accept our biblical interperentation of ISRAEL, no more than we will accept their concept of the calliphate [world-wide muslim-rules-all-thing].

We are tied to them economically, no escape. We have to deal with them. It is going to be politicalor militarily. There is no way we can convert them , in mass, to christianity. No religious solution to this mess.

Religious motivations aside, all of these events are being moved by political and military and economic pressures.

[bootlen]

I admire your faith and clarity of direction, but we have to work within a frame-work of political bindings. I agree with you on the religious angle, but that gets us nowhere on this topic.

Example:
If arguing the comanche/Texas land issue, there are many historians who claim that the indians rejected any concept of land ownership what-so-ever. Never-minding the fact comanches ran out the apaches who were here first. If we get into that debate, many mexicans feel like we 'stole' Texas from mexico. If that were true, then it is also true that mexico 'stole' it from spain. You see my point? We have to deal with the political/economic/military realities of the day.

As a nation, we have to deal with middle-eastern retards whether we like it or not. They reject christianity for the most part. They will not accept our biblical interperentation of ISRAEL, no more than we will accept their concept of the calliphate [world-wide muslim-rules-all-thing].

We are tied to them economically, no escape. We have to deal with them. It is going to be politicalor militarily. There is no way we can convert them , in mass, to christianity. No religious solution to this mess.

Religious motivations aside, all of these events are being moved by political and military and economic pressures.

I agree with that. But nothing done politically, militarily, or economically is going to change the way it is going to turn out. Matter of fact, they will bring about that end. I find it a blast to see it happening.

Like I said, "Hang on to your hats. You're in for one heck of a ride." (Maybe not you personally, tool. But some are.)

[Tool-Slinger]

I agree with that. But nothing done politically, militarily, or economically is going to change the way it is going to turn out. Matter of fact, they will bring about that end. I find it a blast to see it happening.

Like I said, "Hang on to your hats. You're in for one heck of a ride." (Maybe not you personally, tool. But some are.)
You seem stuck on the end.. Why now? Why not 1955? You REALLY think the end is upon us?

[bootlen]

You seem stuck on the end.. Why now? Why not 1955? You REALLY think the end is upon us?

I don't know. But, yes, I DO think it is. I think it is very close.

[Tool-Slinger]

I don't know. But, yes, I DO think it is. I think it is very close.
I have a family story for you, Boot.

YEARS ago, my grampa told me that end was predicted when he was young[born about 1910 i would guess], and HIS grampa told him that it was predicted when he was young. [guessing again , 1850ish]

I reject the end-times predictions by default, unless something is REALLY compelling me to believe otherwise.

[bootlen]

Yeah. I've heard them, too. I did say I don't KNOW. And I don't.

"No man knows the hour."

But when you see Hallowe'en stuff in Wal-Mart, you know Thanksgiving is not far off. ;)

[Tool-Slinger]

Israel is not a sovereign nation for political reasons. It is a sovereign nation because God keeps it that way. It matters not how the world perceives them. I referred Doc to Gen. 12:3. Check it out.
I can agree with you on the biblical reference.

But we need political moves to get the arabs, france, and china to accept israel as a nation.

[bootlen]

I can agree with you on the biblical reference.

But we need political moves to get the arabs, france, and china to accept israel as a nation.

We should strive for peace but it just ain't happenin'. There will be no peace in Jerusalem till Christ's return.

Politically bargain with Arab's? Go ahead, Fred.

[Tool-Slinger]

Yeah. I've heard them, too. I did say I don't KNOW. And I don't.

"No man knows the hour."

But when you see Hallowe'en stuff in Wal-Mart, you know Thanksgiving is not far off. ;)
Let us just deal with it as if the second-coming is 5000 years away? If the situation changes, we are ready to adapt. For now, let us workout the military and economic and political solutions?

[bootlen]

Let us just deal with it as if the second-coming is 5000 years away? If the situation changes, we are ready to adapt. For now, let us workout the military and economic and political solutions?

Political "solutions" are a waste of time. Economic "solutions" put us at a disadvantage. Military "solutions" are the most effective but simply postpone the inevitable.

But, yeah, I'm OK with whatever "solutions" are attempted. They'll be good for a laugh.

[RoBoTeq]

''''It came up about right to occupy the land.''''''

Arguments over right to occupy the land[israel] are irrevelant beyond past 100 years. Dedating the 4 or 5,000 year histrory is playing into the hands of the enemy. As a Texas land-owner, do I debate comanches about rightful ownership? No. To entertain the concept is opening up a pandoras box of possibilities. It is not worth arguing.

Palestinians need to wake-up and realize the current political boundries, forget past claims and move on.

You are dead wrong if you think this issue is not being fought over the ancient promises of land. The entire claim to this land from both the Israeli's and the Palestinians is the Abrahamic promise connection. So if you don't want to discuss all pertinent reasons for a situation, don't bother bringing up the situation.

Who the hell made up the 100 year in the past rule?

[The Doctor]

Arguments over right to occupy the land[israel] are irrevelant beyond past 100 years. Dedating the 4 or 5,000 year histrory is playing into the hands of the enemy. As a Texas land-owner, do I debate comanches about rightful ownership? No. To entertain the concept is opening up a pandoras box of possibilities. It is not worth arguing.

God did not promise any land to any Indian tribe as far as I know. You have anything on that? Neither did He promise a Messiah through any but Israel. .
Neither did He say His will on earth would be accomplished by any nation other than through Israel.
Gen. 12:3...And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Galatians 4:30-31. Cast out the bondwoman and her son, ....So then brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Romans 4:13-14 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed throught the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,


Palestinians need to wake-up and realize the current political boundries, forget past claims and move on.

The need to wake up and give offerings of thanks to God and to Israel for not destroying them outright.
In light of the verses I quoted here above, are you suggesting that God has the whole "faith" thing, and also has this other thing where real estate has some importance?

My thing is this: the Arabs and Philistines JUST LIKE KILLIN'. It don't matter how many Scriptures you come up with. Scriptures relate to faith. The Arabs wouldn't abide by the law, not that law anyway. Faith?, or real estate?

[bootlen]

. Gen. 12:3...And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Galatians 4:30-31. Cast out the bondwoman and her son, ....So then brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Romans 4:13-14 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed throught the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

In light of the verses I quoted here above, are you suggesting that God has the whole "faith" thing, and also has this other thing where real estate has some importance?

My thing is this: the Arabs and Philistines JUST LIKE KILLIN'. It don't matter how many Scriptures you come up with. Scriptures relate to faith. We are not under the law, and neither would the Arabs be under the law, not that law anyway. Faith?, or real estate?

Well, Doc, the simple fact remains that a nation is not sovereign unless it owns and occupies land (this is by man's law). God gave the land of Israel to Abraham's offspring and declared them sovereign (God's edict). And it is through this nation of Israel that He has and will bless ALL the nations through Christ.

Geographically, where will God's will on earth be focused? Paris? Brussels? Washington? Moscow?

I do believe God said it will be Jerusalem. Last time I checked, that is in Israel.

BTW, as i recall, Gen. 12:3 says, "I will bless those who bless your descendants and curse those who curse your descendants."

[glennac]

Palestinians are the social outcasts of most Arab countries. They have been made to leave their homeland when they tried to return. The are the dregs of Arab society.

So Christian Arabs are the dregs of society. Look it up Bootlen. I did not make this up from whole cloth like you are. The Armenians have Lived there since Jesus walked the earth. The earlist Christians were in Palistine and have been there ever since. But you apparently want to exterminate them also in favor of the Jews. Are you Jewish or a Christian? Give me a break. You should at least ackowledge the rights of the Christians since you yourself are one or the rights of the Jews supercedes all others including the Christians?

[bootlen]

So Christian Arabs are the dregs of society. Look it up Bootlen. I did not make this up from whole cloth like you are. The Armenians have Lived there since Jesus walked the earth. The earlist Christians were in Palistine and have been there ever since. But you apparently want to exterminate them also in favor of the Jews. Are you Jewish or a Christian? Give me a break. You should at least ackowledge the rights of the Christians since you yourself are one or the rights of the Jews supercedes all others including the Christians?


I don't think you have it straight what is known as a Palestinian today.

Yes. Early Christians lived in Palestine, which was/is a part of Israel. Some were Israelis, some were Arabs, a few were Romans, a few were possibly Greeks.

Those known as "Palestinians" today are outcasts of Syria, Saudi, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, and other Arab countries. They are outcast because they are criminals (murderers, thieves, scam artists, etc.) in their own homes. You think they left their evil ways when they were kicked out and have now all become Christians? A few, I'm sure, are Christians and it's sad that they are caught up in the mess. But I think it is a very small percentage of the total who are Christians. It's not like the majority is.

Your perspective is skewed, Glenn. Get a grip, man.

[Tool-Slinger]

You are dead wrong if you think this issue is not being fought over the ancient promises of land. The entire claim to this land from both the Israeli's and the Palestinians is the Abrahamic promise connection. So if you don't want to discuss all pertinent reasons for a situation, don't bother bringing up the situation.

Who the hell made up the 100 year in the past rule?
I know there are ancient claims to the land, and it is a part of the dispute.

But all of the way-back-when claims are basically irrelivant in the current time.
I admit, very important to some of the loons over there, but pointless to argue.

The closest comparable example I can think of is the loons over here who think all european decendants should leave the americas. It it just as foolish. Disputes with claims ranging back hundreds or thousands of years will never be resolved , so we should move beyond them.

[bootlen]

I know there are ancient claims to the land, and it is a part of the dispute.

But all of the way-back-when claims are basically irrelivant in the current time.
I admit, very important to some of the loons over there, but pointless to argue.

The closest comparable example I can think of is the loons over here who think all european decendants should leave the americas. It it just as foolish. Disputes with claims ranging back hundreds or thousands of years will never be resolved , so we should move beyond them.

The Jews are the only people that God promised land to for all time. THAT is the crux of the issue. He never promised land to Indians, Europeans, Asians, or any other ethnic group. Some Arabs claim the land was promised to them because of Ishmael. But Ishmael was not the child of promise to Abraham. That deal was concocted by Sarah, not God. Therefore, the Arab claim is invalid. The Jewish claim is the only valid one.

[The Doctor]

Well, Doc, the simple fact remains that a nation is not sovereign unless it owns and occupies land (this is by man's law). God gave the land of Israel to Abraham's offspring and declared them sovereign (God's edict). And it is through this nation of Israel that He has and will bless ALL the nations through Christ.

Geographically, where will God's will on earth be focused? Paris? Brussels? Washington? Moscow?

I do believe God said it will be Jerusalem. Last time I checked, that is in Israel.

BTW, as i recall, Gen. 12:3 says, "I will bless those who bless your descendants and curse those who curse your descendants."

Old Jerusalem was a shadow, just like most of the imagery in the OT.
For our country to predicate foreign policy on a verse is Genesis is rather out of context, when there are other ways to bless their descendants. Are you assuming that we could only bless them by going to war for them?

[bootlen]

Old Jerusalem was a shadow, just like most of the imagery in the OT.
For our country to predicate foreign policy on a verse is Genesis is rather out of context, when there are other ways to bless their descendants. Are you assuming that we could only bless them by going to war for them?

Not at all...unless their existence and sovereignty are threatened to the point of war.

Jerusalem was a shadow, you say? Well, Scripture says when Christ returns, He will set foot on a particular location (exact location escapes me) ground in Jerusalem. Jerusalem won't be a shadow then, my friend. It will be the focus of ALL of mankind.

[The Doctor]

Not at all...unless their existence and sovereignty are threatened to the point of war.

Jerusalem was a shadow, you say? Well, Scripture says when Christ returns, He will set foot on a particular location (exact location escapes me) ground in Jerusalem. Jerusalem won't be a shadow then, my friend. It will be the focus of ALL of mankind.

Then let us agree with the author of Revelation and say Even so come, Lord Jesus!
Meanwhile, the Arabs and the Philistines are bloodthirsty folks.

[bootlen]

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Amen.

[Tool-Slinger]

The Jews are the only people that God promised land to for all time. THAT is the crux of the issue. He never promised land to Indians, Europeans, Asians, or any other ethnic group. Some Arabs claim the land was promised to them because of Ishmael. But Ishmael was not the child of promise to Abraham. That deal was concocted by Sarah, not God. Therefore, the Arab claim is invalid. The Jewish claim is the only valid one.
You do not have to convince me. I am on-board with you guys. But you will NEVER convince trhe muslims with this. They need a different perspective, other than the ancient-claim thing...

[bootlen]

You do not have to convince me. I am on-board with you guys. But you will NEVER convince trhe muslims with this. They need a different perspective, other than the ancient-claim thing...

It's all they have. It has no real substance but they are not going to give it up.

It is the crux of the entire ME lack of peace. It does not matter what other issues are involved (oil, power, etc.), the real issue is one of Israel/Ishmael.

[The Doctor]

It's all they have. It has no real substance but they are not going to give it up.

It is the crux of the entire ME lack of peace. It does not matter what other issues are involved (oil, power, etc.), the real issue is one of Israel/Ishmael.

If only the real issue were that simple. Why then, are Sunnis blowing up Shiites?
Bloodlust, and of course, power.

[bootlen]

If only the real issue were that simple. Why then, are Sunnis blowing up Shiites?
Bloodlust, and of course, power.

"Simple" issue? It is a 5,000 year old struggle.

Tribes everywhere have always been at odds. That would be happening even without the Israel/Ishmael dispute.

[Tool-Slinger]

"Simple" issue? It is a 5,000 year old struggle.

Tribes everywhere have always been at odds. That would be happening even without the Israel/Ishmael dispute.
Agreed, complicated. In gaza it was palestinians killing palestinians. That was the whole modern political thing there. iran is funding hamas.

[show me the money]

Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."
Qur'an 66:2 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

Bukhari:V6B60N8 "Umar said, ‘Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah's Apostle himself said, "Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one."

Qur'an 33:11 "In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us."

Qur'an 33:21 "You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow."
Bukhari:V2B24N555 "I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.'"

Qur'an 89:5 "There surely is an oath for thinking man."
Qur'an 92:8 "We will make smooth for him the path to misery."

Ishaq:519 "Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.' Having got Muhammad's permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.' The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.'"

Qur'an 5:41 "Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them."

Qur'an 5:101 "Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble."

Qur'an 5:102 "Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers."

Ishaq:567 "Muhammad informed Umar [the second Caliph], and he called the Prophet a liar."

Tabari IX:36
Ishaq:596 "‘Prophet, this group of Ansar have a grudge against you for what you did with the booty and how you divided it among you own people.' ‘Ansar, what is this talk I hear from you? What is the grudge you harbor against me? Do you think ill of me? Did I not come to you when you were erring and needy, and then made rich by Allah?' ‘You came to us discredited, when your message was rejected by the Quraysh, and we believed you. You were forsaken and deserted and we assisted you. You were a fugitive and we took you in, sheltering you. You were poor and in need, and we comforted you."
Bukhari:V6B60N662 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.'"

Tabari VI:110 "When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.' Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad's tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, ‘I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.'"

Qur'an 40:32 "O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray."

Ishaq:248 "Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, blinding them so that they will never find guidance. And that is because they have declared you a liar and they do not believe in what has come down from their Lord to you even though they believe in all that came down before you. For opposing you they will have an awful punishment."

Qur'an 8:30 "Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer."

Ishaq:442 "By Muhammad's order we beguiled them."

Tabari VIII:23 "The Messenger and his Companions continued in the fear and distress that Allah has described in the Qur'an. Then Nu'aym came to the Prophet. ‘I ‘ve become a Muslim, but my tribe does not know of my Islam; so command me whatever you will.' Muhammad said, ‘Make them abandon each other if you can so that they will leave us; for war is deception.'"

Ishaq:496 "‘By Allah you lie,' one said to another. ‘Liar yourself!' ‘You are a disaffected person arguing on behalf of the diseased."

Bukhari:V4B53N453 "When the Prophet wanted to perform the Umrah, the Quraysh stipulated that he could not preach (Islam). So Ali started writing a treaty. ‘This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah, has agreed to.' The (Meccans) said, ‘If we believed that you were the Apostle of Allah we would have followed you. So write, ‘This is what Muhammad bin Abdallah has agreed to.' The Apostle could not write, so he asked Ali to erase the expression: ‘Apostle of Allah.' On that Ali said, ‘I will never erase it.' Muhammad said, ‘Let me see the paper.' The Prophet erased the expression with his own hand."