Atheism is chic [Archive] - HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion

Andy Schoen

06-10-2007, 09:56 PM

Atheism is chic, it's cool, it's the latest craze. The bookstores are chock full of authors declaring that "G-d Is Not Great," that G-d is a "Delusion," that you are a moron if you believe in the Deity.

The secular press, of course, loves these books, and the reviews are largely admirable. Some of the books are also selling very nicely, as it's been a long time since atheists had much to cheer about.

Polls show that about 90 percent of Americans believe in G-d, but that leaves 30 million folks who just say no to a higher power. If only one percent of that group buys a certain anti-G-d book, you have a best seller.

But the atheist chic trend is not just on the page, Hollywood is involved as well. According to the book "Celebrities in Hell," a number of big stars may be aligned with the universe, but not with the force that some believe created it.

The book quotes the following:

George Clooney: "I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't know if I believe in G-d."

Angelina Jolie: "There doesn't need to be a G-d for me."

Carrie Fisher: "I love the idea of G-d, but it's not stylistically in keeping with the way I function."

Indeed. Believing in G-d is not very stylish in mainstream media circles these days.

The question then becomes is there anything wrong with that? After all, we have freedom from religion in America -- the Constitution makes it clear that no power in this country has the right to impose religion on anyone.

So the atheists have clear sailing, and I say: Thank G-d.

That's because people of faith should be challenged and think about their beliefs. Critical thinking in all areas makes the mind sharper, and your philosophy stronger.

Thus, I was looking forward to debating the most successful of the atheist authors, Richard Dawkins, who wrote the best seller "The G-d Delusion." Dawkins basically says that science can explain everything on earth, and no one has any direct evidence there is a G-d.

But I stopped him in the fourth round with this right hook: "(the earth) had to come from somewhere. And that is the leap of faith you guys (atheists) make, that it just somehow happened."

Dawkins replied: "You're the one who needs a leap of faith, the onus is on you to say why you believe in something ... you believe in, presumably, the Christian G-d Jesus."

"Jesus is a real guy," I said. "I know what he did. I'm not positive that Jesus is G-d, but I'm throwing in with him rather than throwing in with you guys, because you guys can't tell me how it all got here."

"We're working on it," Dawkins said.

"When you get it," I shot back, "maybe I'll listen."

But the atheists will never get it. The universe and the earth is so complex, so incredibly detailed, that to believe an accidental evolutionary occurrence could have exclusively led to the nature/mankind situation we have now, is some stretch of the imagination. I mean, call me crazy, but the sun always comes up, while man oversleeps all the time.

So bless you, Richard Dawkins, and all the other non-believers. As long as they don't attack people of faith, I have no problem with them. As my eighth-grade teacher Sister Martin once said: "Faith is a gift."

But not everybody gets to open the box. -- Beyond belief, Bill O'Reilly, June 11, 2007

------------------

I wonder if Ayn Rand's Objectivism philosophy gets any play in the secular press any more. :rolleyes:

bootlen

06-10-2007, 10:04 PM

I'm just curious, Andy. Are you Jewish?

Andy Schoen

06-10-2007, 10:17 PM

I'm just curious, Andy. Are you Jewish?
Roman Catholic. With perhaps an influence by the Society of Jesus. ;)

bootlen

06-10-2007, 10:28 PM

It was your "G_d" that made me wonder.

Andy Schoen

06-10-2007, 10:44 PM

It was your "G_d" that made me wonder.
It's from Bill O'Reilly's post. I suspect he wanted to bypass the atheistic filters. :D

bootlen

06-10-2007, 11:03 PM

Ah. Yeah, I s'pose. LOL

geerair

06-10-2007, 11:58 PM

scrogdog

06-11-2007, 12:29 AM

I'll post a brief comment here, for whatever it is worth. :)

I sort of get the feeling that when I tell people that I am "agnostic"... that they take that to mean something like... "he's on the fence. All that he needs is a little push one way or the other and he'll either see the Christian God, or be lost to us forever. " :)

Not exactly. The Christian God as stated in a literal Genesis is in my world impossible. I think Andy has it about right as a beleiver... if there was any time for God to create, it was at the start of the big bang. Still, I do not beleive in that either... what "agnostic" means to me is to be open to all possibilties. We could live in a world created by science from another dimension. :) Our "creator" may not even be aware of our existence. Maybe "The Matrix" exists and none of us has the proper blue or red pills handy. :) All "agnostic" means is that "I don't know". Probablility-wise I'd put odds that the Christian god that many think exists actually existing as being quite low.

After all, Andy... philosophically speaking... if we adapt to what is there, why is what is there so remarkable? See what I mean? ;)

acmanko

06-11-2007, 06:54 AM

If there is/was a God, He would never have let AL GOre invent the internet.

hvacker

06-11-2007, 06:04 PM

Some of it is probably a reaction against the stupidty of Christian fundamentalists. I know that their are some brilliant theistic philosophers but it seems thats concidered wisdom of man by these people and therefore not worth knowing.

Did you see the opening of the creationist park with Adam&Eve hanging with dinosaurs?

braces4impact

06-11-2007, 08:30 PM

Gotta love Andy and his arguments from incredulity.

EDIT:
I'm sorry I mean Bill in this case..but Andy for buying into it can be condemned as well.

braces4impact

06-11-2007, 08:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1fgKXmNJrQ

Andy Schoen

06-11-2007, 10:32 PM

Our "creator" may not even be aware of our existence.
which is consistent with Spinoza's God. But it sure seems quite a bother to go and create all this stuff and complexity without some underlying purpose. Perhaps mankind is a merely a consequence, and we may need to take the red pill to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. :p

Maybe "The Matrix" exists and none of us has the proper blue or red pills handy. :)
which, of course, is consistent with Descarte's demon. I think we all end up taking the red pill whether we like it or not. :(

After all, Andy... philosophically speaking... if we adapt to what is there, why is what is there so remarkable? See what I mean? ;)
C'mon, don't you find this universe amazing? :)

glennac

06-11-2007, 11:58 PM

Well since Bootlen broke the ice with a personal question I will do the same. Andy do you have a beard like on your avatar and about the same age? I am just curious. You have never changed it.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 10:25 AM

But it sure seems quite a bother to go and create all this stuff and complexity without some underlying purpose.

Assuming, that is, that creation of this universe was intended. We could be the by-product of an experiment by a scientist from another dimension. Our wonderful universe may be so small to him that he does not see it. The lifespan of our universe could be, to him, as a nanosecond is to us.

The possibilities are endless. We just don't know.

C'mon, don't you find this universe amazing?

Of course I do. That's where my love of science comes from. What I don't understand is why something can't just be naturally amazing. Why does the fact that something is amazing lead to a belief in Intelligent Design? To me, there is not a connection... the idea does not follow a logical path. Plus, a lot of your amazement comes from ideas that observe that if things were not just this certain way, no life would exist. Bunk. Life as we know it perhaps. :) Again, if we adapt to what is there, then it is not remarkable that we depend on those things for life.

ga-hvac-tech

06-12-2007, 10:50 AM

It is amazing to me the depths folks will go to to avoid giving God the glory. But then Scripture says that some will do this...

Rebellious children usually learn, but then some do not... Oh well.

Tell you what: When (that is IF) someone can answer Andy's question about where it all came from... then there is a grounds for a debate on creationism.

It does not matter how one spins it: If one is to say that evolution is fact; There had to be a place that matter came from... so until all you folks that just cannot stand the idea of an all powerful God (childish rebellion IMO) can show me where it all came from; you arguements have a huge hole in them... probably better described as a black hole, because it sucks your brains into it... :D

When you come up with the answer, I will return to the thread. Until then, it is your sandbox to play in.

And I will predict now that Geer will spin and spin and spin 'till his typing fingertips wear off, but never address the question (that is, answer it). Typical liberal... always answer a question with spin, and never able to answer a question unless it is in his favor. Now watch, he will even try to shift it towards destroying my credibility with frivolous things... all to avoid taking responsibility for his lack of ability to deal with the question.

acmanko

06-12-2007, 11:00 AM

the answer is Dark Energy learn about it here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:02 AM

There had to be a place that matter came from

Really? Then why is it not required that your God came from somewhere?

It is because you arbitrarily decide the rules that suit your agenda.

Paricipate or not... your loss if you don't. It is, in fact, your inability to deal with how the universe works. Either things can be eternal or they cannot. If God can be eternal, there is no reason not to beleive that the universe always existed. If the universe isn't eternal, then why is it ok that God is?

You define your own universe to make things work. What you accept on one hand you do not accept in another case.

ga-hvac-tech

06-12-2007, 11:07 AM

Really? Then why is it not required that your God came from somewhere?

It is because you arbitrarily decide the rules that suit your agenda.

Paricipate or not... your loss if you don't. It is, in fact, your inability to deal with how the universe works. Either things can be eternal or they cannot. If God can be eternal, there is no reason not to beleive that the universe always existed. If the universe isn't eternal, then why is it ok that God is?

You define your own universe to make things work. What you accept on one hand you do not accept in another case.

The answer to that is very simple: God is a Spirit being, the universe is matter. No comparison between a Spirit and matter. Yet if one watches their 'pop-science' cable channels, there is ample evidence that something in a 'spiritual realm' does indeed exist, even though it does not lend itself to convenient scientific explanation.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 12:44 PM

God is a Spirit being

Perhaps. But even if he is, you have ZERO facts or data or studies on the properties of supernatural beings, if they even exist in the first place.

Even if they do exist, it is man who has IMAGINED what their properties are. You really have no idea if they are eternal or really anything else about them. No offense, but God could be "dead"... or whatever "ceasing to exist" means to a spirit. How would you know? So, I don't really usually rely on the imagination of man to find truth or to describe how things work. If you do, more power to you. :)

And besides, let's say that I accept your argument that matter had to come from somewhere, and the only explanation for the start of the universe is God. Ok, well, in that case the universe still evolved from a condensed mass to where it is today over billions of years RATHER than God creating everything in 7 days along with Adam and Eve. Andy accepts that evolution (both evolution of the universe and evolution of life on Earth) occured, so if you want to side with Andy's arguments and use them, seems like you should as well. :)

ga-hvac-tech

06-12-2007, 12:52 PM

Perhaps. But even if he is, you have ZERO facts or data or studies on the properties of supernatural beings, if they even exist in the first place.

Even if they do exist, it is man who has IMAGINED what their properties are. You really have no idea if they are eternal or really anything else about them. No offense, but God could be "dead"... or whatever "ceasing to exist" means to a spirit. How would you know? So, I don't really usually rely on the imagination of man to find truth or to describe how things work. If you do, more power to you. :)

There you go again Scrog: 'If I (meaning my brain) cannot accept it with my yardstick of knowledge, then it is either non-existant or a fairy tale.' Ever consider the idea that there could be things that are beyond your ability to understand or imagine?

IMO it is kinda childish to say that I (my brainpower) is the beginning and end of the universe.

But to each their own.

I will grant you this: When it is all over, and they put your body in a box; what then? Are you willing to bet eternity on what you can 'see' now? Think carefully before you reply my friend, because eternity is a L-O-N-G time. And ask yourself: "What if???"

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 01:09 PM

Of course there I go again, my friend! That's what being agnostic is. Your problem is that you can't see why I would consider ALL possible answers to what is not known.

As an agnostic, how could I NOT do that?

Your God is a possibility among many. That's all. That's all it CAN be for me.

I never said God was a fairy tale. What I am saying is that there is NO reason to give weight to the possibility of the Christian God over all other possibilities. The Christian God is EQUAL to all other possiblities, nothing more. Looking at things that way, there are fairly low odds that the God that you think exists actually does. There may be a God, and he may be nothing like what you think he is.

Remember what an agnostic is. Not saying you are right or wrong. I am merely pointing out that, logically, there is no reason to prefer the "Christian God" explanation over the thousands of other possibilities.

Listen, I would be honest with you about what I think if I still have awareness after death. The simple answer is... no... that changes nothing. If I were to tell you WHY I feel that way, you would be quite insulted I assure you. :) I'm not here for that. I don't like that name game or offending others. However, I am a straight shooter who calls them as I see them. So, if I inadvertantly offend I ALWAYS apologize for it.

coordinatesales

06-12-2007, 01:47 PM

Really? Then why is it not required that your God came from somewhere?

Science says that the universe has a beginning, currently the Big Bang theory is in favor. That's why we christians ask where did it come from? Our Bible tells us that God was, is and always will be. He has no beginning so we don't have to prove where he came from.

Just my 2 cents.

geerair

06-12-2007, 02:10 PM

The answer to that is very simple: God is a Spirit being, the universe is matter. No comparison between a Spirit and matter. A totally vacuous answer which explains nothing and relies on magic for implementation.

Also violates Mr. Occam's razor by adding an extraneous entity.

But let's suppose there was a spirit who created the universe.

What credible evidence do you have that your version of god is this spirit?

Why not one of the myriad of creator/spirits loose in the universe and worshipped by fervent adherents?

Yet if one watches their 'pop-science' cable channels, there is ample evidence that something in a 'spiritual realm' does indeed exist, even though it does not lend itself to convenient scientific explanation.Two dudes snooping around old houses with homemade "ghost detectors" can hardly be called science........... even on "pop-science" cable channels.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 02:47 PM

That's where my love of science comes from.

What about the science of love? Any explanation as to why someone would willingly die in the place of a stranger? Or an even easirer question...why would someone willingly die for ANY other human being?

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 03:09 PM

Well, my take on it is that that sort of thing comes from the same place as all human morality.

Human empathy.

We empathize with other humans. We feel thier pain. We do not cause others pain because, as much as possible for flawed humans, we don't want others to cause us pain.

Even in the animal world it is instinct to be protective of cubs and the like. We even see sacrifice to some degree.

If you were to say that the fear of God's punishment is what makes men moral, I disagree. People are all different. Parents must sometimes use different techniques with different children. Some people respond to carrots, others to sticks. There is no one way for everyone.

It's as you have often reminded us; if you want to see the true nature of man, put two three-year-olds in a single room with one toy. That is our challenge; our struggle. To be civilized despite baser emotions and instincts.

The philosophy you hold so dear is a damn good one. It would be crazy to deny the good ideas of the 10 commandments. Equally silly is the idea that flawed humans could follow them all the time. You recognize this as admitted sinners. We stumble and we fall. It's who we are. It's what we do. It's our lot in life to screw up.

It is also what defines us as men. How we deal with how we screwed up. My dad used to tell me, son, it's not how you fall down, it's how you get back up.

The question simply is this, does this philosophy come from God or men? Good question. I can only say this, I do not see it as being impossible that man could have come up with this stuff as you do. In fact, I think that explanation is more likely than your God.

chillbilly

06-12-2007, 05:42 PM

It's not the fear of God's punishment that inspires love, forgiveness and morality.
It's God's love that inspires men to do remarkable things.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 05:48 PM

chillbilly

06-12-2007, 07:13 PM

Forgive me, Chill. Hmmm, I'm not sure where I got that impression then.
Hell is supposed to be a deterrent, though, right? If one is worried about judgement, that is a deterrent as well I would think, yes?

Yes, I suppose it would be easy to view hell as a "deterrent".
It would be just as easy to assume that love and forgiveness are the focus God wants for us and NOT fire and brimstone.
Hell is nothing more than a consequence of living an amoral life, IMO.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:17 PM

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:19 PM

And I don't even pretend to think that a single person could ever obey the Ten Commandments. Ya see, THAT is exactly why we need a Savior.

ga-hvac-tech

06-12-2007, 08:21 PM

In Scripture, we find two ways to relate to God:

Law, and Grace.

Law= Here are the rules, you have to (you better) keep then in your own strength. And if you fail, you must do penance for your mistakes (sins). Each 'religion' has their own idea of penance. Biblically in the OT, that was the sacrifice innocent blood; that is the Biblical price for sin. In Scripture, this is called living under the law, or legalism.

Grace= (God speaking) OK my child, I realize you will mess up. But I am your loving Father, and I want the best for you. If you choose to rebel repeatedly mess up, I may have to 'turn up the heat' until you listen a little better. But I am your Father and you are my beloved son (daughter), and my will for you is to grow you to be everything I created you to be. I sacrificed my only son for your redemption from sin, so I could be your Father. All you need to do is accept your position as my child, and I will provide more than you could imagine.

Now which one of those two relationships would you rather have with the 'king of the universe'?

Hint: The first one is what most churches preach, the second is the truth. But one has to 'get down and dirty' with God as I mentioned in a different post to understand the difference. For those that did not read the other post: Seek God with ALL your heart, truely want to follow Him, and you will learn a bunch of things you never knew.

Think of it like this: Could I just choose I want to be an HVAC pro, and automatically do it? No, I need to earn a license, I need to start a company, I need to do lots of learning of things I do not know. And I will continue to learn.

So why is it that we think we know it all when it comes to God? Why are we not willing to listen and learn? No, I am not criticizing anyone, just curious as to why folks will NOT listen and learn from God??? It is sooo simple, yet do difficult for some... why?

Again I ask: Which relationship would you prefer?

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:29 PM

It would be just as easy to assume that love and forgiveness are the focus God wants for us and NOT fire and brimstone.

Hell is nothing more than a consequence of living an amoral life, IMO.

This is very interesting. Allow me to analyze and dissect. :)

It is interesting because GA just asked me in another topic what I would do if I "woke up" after I died. Have I ever thought about it? Of course.

Ok, I die. I "wake up". I am before God.

What I hope would happen would be something like God acknowledging that I lived a pretty good life. Not excellent... I f-up like everyone else. But, I never robbed a bank :)... I am respectful to people and help them both with time and money, and... I beleive in a lot of Christian tenets actually. Doesn't mean I beleive in God, it means that perhaps man... internally... mystically :)... found these things within himself.

If God sent me to hell for the life I've lived so far, no insult intended, but I wouldn't think much of Him. What a blasphemer, eh? As if it matter what I think! :) Well it should... if God is a loving father. You don't send your child in to eternal damnation just for NOT accepting Jesus.

Besides... I can't really say that I "get" the whole heaven and paradise thing anyway (except that it is better than hell lol). WTF would I do there? My life, Chill, is about the persuit of knowledge and well... the wonder of things. Philosophically, I'm not even sure that I WANT science to explain all things. What then? What is to explore, mystify and challenge mankind?

In heaven, I'd just ask God. How utterly boring. :)

Not only am I wormfood, I think that is probably best for a guy like me. Maybe that's actually what hell is. Not a place of torture... you simply do not awaken and ascend. :)

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:30 PM

Hell is supposed to be a deterrent, though, right? If one is worried about judgement, that is a deterrent as well I would think, yes?

Hell has NEVER been a deterrent. If it were, there would be no sin.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:31 PM

So it is a chemical reaction

Where did I say that or even that science can explain emotion or empathy?

You frequently use points like this, Boot. Just because a thing is unexplained, it does not lead me to God. It leads me to God and a thousand other possibilities equally. Among them... that science may find the answer. :)

daytonafan

06-12-2007, 08:33 PM

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:35 PM

Hell has NEVER been a deterrent. If it were, there would be no sin.

Hmm. You'll have to explain that in more detail I'm afraid. Sorry, I took my stupid pill early tonight. :)

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:38 PM

Neil is my all time favorite drummer. I love "Presto" the best. My uncle lives by the Yankee Candle Factory. Is that close to Woburn?

Rush is my favorite band, but I caution you about the new album Snakes and Arrows. I don't think it is too blasphemous but the entire theme is religous fundamentalism. Other than that... GET IT! :) Best thing since Moving Pictures.

Heck, I don't know where the Yankee Candle Factory is. :)

chillbilly

06-12-2007, 08:40 PM

This is very interesting. Allow me to analyze and dissect. :)

It is interesting because GA just asked me in another topic what I would do if I "woke up" after I died. Have I ever thought about it? Of course.

Ok, I die. I "wake up". I am before God.

What I hope would happen would be something like God acknowledging that I lived a pretty good life. Not excellent... I f-up like everyone else. But, I never robbed a bank :)... I am respectful to people and help them both with time and money, and... I beleive in a lot of Christian tenets actually. Doesn't mean I beleive in God, it means that perhaps man... internally... mystically :)... found these things within himself.

If God sent me to hell for the life I've lived so far, no insult intended, but I wouldn't think much of Him. What a blasphemer, eh? As if it matter what I think! :) Well it should... if God is a loving father. You don't send your child in to eternal damnation just for NOT accepting Jesus.

Besides... I can't really say that I "get" the whole heaven and paradise thing anyway (except that it is better than hell lol). WTF would I do there? My life, Chill, is about the persuit of knowledge and well... the wonder of things. Philosophically, I'm not even sure that I WANT science to explain all things. What then? What is to explore, mystify and challenge mankind?

In heaven, I'd just ask God. How utterly boring. :)

Not only am I wormfood, I think that is probably best for a guy like me. Maybe that's actually what hell is. Not a place of torture... you simply do not awaken and ascend. :)

You keep deducing using your logic.
I'll make no such attempts to explain the unfathomable.
I believe in love. I believe in God.
And I believe we are here because of God's love.
Corny? For some, maybe.
Not very chic? Of course not.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:43 PM

Where did I say that or even that science can explain emotion or empathy?

Then how can you believe they exist?

You frequently use points like this, Boot. Just because a thing is unexplained, it does not lead me to God. It leads me to God and a thousand other possibilities equally. Among them... that science may find the answer. :)

And one day, "science" will indeed observe the truth.

chillbilly

06-12-2007, 08:44 PM

Neil is my all time favorite drummer. I love "Presto" the best. My uncle lives by the Yankee Candle Factory. Is that close to Woburn?

Hey daytonafan. How you been?
Welcome back.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:44 PM

I believe in love. Not sure I believe in God.

Are we so different, really?

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:45 PM

Hmm. You'll have to explain that in more detail I'm afraid. Sorry, I took my stupid pill early tonight. :)

I assumed you meant that hell is a deterrent for sinning. Did I ass-u-me too much?

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:46 PM

I believe in love. Not sure I believe in God.

Are we so different, really?

Depends. Scripture says "God is love."

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:49 PM

Then how can you believe they exist?

It is a fact that they exist because I experience them. I do not experience God. Shouldn't be that hard if he wanted me to see him.

That's my problem with religion... too many hoops to jump through. I'd hope that God is *cough* truly above all that. A "let's get to the heart of the matter" kinda guy.

But even if I am wrong, Boot. It does not matter. I am a stubborn man, KA or not. I would willing burn in hell for eternity before I bow before any God who does not display my idea of the qualities of one. :) If he truly is glorious, make the glory easy to see, and not part of some... uh... club. :)

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:50 PM

I assumed you meant that hell is a deterrent for sinning. Did I ass-u-me too much?

No, maybe I'm the one who has read you wrong. Didn't you say that failure to accept Jesus was my ticket to hell? So... in a sense... hell should force me to accept him as my saviour, yes?

chillbilly

06-12-2007, 08:54 PM

I believe in love. Not sure I believe in God.

Are we so different, really?

We are men. I don't use my faith in God to elevate myself above anyone.
Our differences are fundamental. (No pun intended)
I have unshakeable faith in God.
You have no such faith for your own reasons.

I do think Neil Pert is an excellent drummer.
I was really partial to Keith Moon and John Bonham when I was younger, but now I'm a Gene Krupa and Ringo Starr fan. :D :D

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:56 PM

It is a fact that they exist because I experience them. I do not experience God. Shouldn't be that hard if he wanted me to see him.

You have to know Him first.

That's my problem with religion... too many hoops to jump through.

Name one. Hoop that is.

I'd hope that God is *cough* truly above all that. A "let's get to the heart of the matter" kinda guy.

He is. He is so far above that that the distance cannot be measured.

But even if I am wrong, Boot. It does not matter. I am a stubborn man, KA or not. I would willing burn in hell for eternity before I bow before any God who does not display my idea of the qualities of one.

Kinda selfish and self-important of you, isn't it?

If he truly is glorious, make the glory easy to see, and not part of some... uh... club.

No club. It's open to everybody. Even you. ;)

chillbilly

06-12-2007, 08:57 PM

It is a fact that they exist because I experience them. I do not experience God. Shouldn't be that hard if he wanted me to see him.

That's my problem with religion... too many hoops to jump through. I'd hope that God is *cough* truly above all that. A "let's get to the heart of the matter" kinda guy.

But even if I am wrong, Boot. It does not matter. I am a stubborn man, KA or not. I would willing burn in hell for eternity before I bow before any God who does not display my idea of the qualities of one. :) If he truly is glorious, make the glory easy to see, and not part of some... uh... club. :)

It is easy to see.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 08:58 PM

I don't use my faith in God to elevate myself above anyone.

I don't think that believers have the idea that they are above others... if anything they are sad for those who cannot see what they see. I can relate, I feel sad for those who can't see the wonder of science!

Or Rush for that matter! :D

bootlen

06-12-2007, 08:59 PM

No, maybe I'm the one who has read you wrong. Didn't you say that failure to accept Jesus was my ticket to hell? So... in a sense... hell should force me to accept him as my saviour, yes?

Actually, accepting Christ as Savior is the ticket OUT of hell. We are already going head long to hell...but for Christ.

Hell is real. People still sin. People still reject Christ. Not much of a deterrent far as I can see.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 09:00 PM

It is easy to see.

It REALLY is...if your eyes are opened.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 09:07 PM

He is. He is so far above that that the distance cannot be measured.

Great! Then I should have nothing to worry about. ;)

Kinda selfish and self-important of you, isn't it?

Stubborn, yes. Why self-important? What is self-important about not believing that some spirit exists? What is selfish about it?

These are Christian mantras that never made any sense to me. Now listen, my friend, this is going to sound offensive but I'm shooting straight here. To have to use mantras to back a position is every cause for a guy like me to run away from it. I know you will never understand. These debates we have are full of what is, in my view, fairly meaningless mantras... two examples given above... but many more exist.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 09:10 PM

We are already going head long to hell...

I see. So... I should... when raising MY child... tell him that he is destined to me torturing him. But... if he learns my lessons... then I will set him or her free at 18? BTW, if they happen to eat the cookies I baked when I told them not to, I will cast disease and suffering on them and in general make the rest of thier lives far less perfect than I could.

That about it, bud? :)

bootlen

06-12-2007, 09:14 PM

[QUOTE=scrogdog;1515211] Stubborn, yes. Why self-important? What is self-important about not believing that some spirit exists? What is selfish about it?

Selfish and self-important because you think the Creator of all that is should run things by YOUR standards. That, scrog, is selfish and self-important. You know that.

These are Christian mantras that never made any sense to me.

What are Christian mantras that never made sense to you?

Now listen, my friend, this is going to sound offensive but I'm shooting straight here. To have to use mantras to back a position is every cause for a guy like me to run away from it. I know you will never understand. These debates we have are full of what is, in my view, fairly meaningless mantras... two examples given above... but many more exist.

There are certain truths. The will NEVER change...or they would not be truth. Scientific facts are also mantras in that sense but you seem to be okay with them. What's the diff?

bootlen

06-12-2007, 09:15 PM

I see. So... I should... when raising MY child... tell him that he is destined to me torturing him. But... if he learns my lessons... then I will set him or her free at 18? BTW, if they happen to eat the cookies I baked when I told them not to, I will cast disease and suffering on them and in general make the rest of thier lives far less perfect than I could.

That about it, bud? :)

Over-simplification to the point of being untrue. Not even a good try on your part.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 09:18 PM

Scientific facts are also mantras in that sense but you seem to be okay with them. What's the diff?

What are you talking about? I can demonstrate scientific fact. You cannot demonstrate God. What's the diff? lol. I can't even believe you asked that question. :)

One man's mantra is another man's truth, I guess. I just gave you two examples... the ones you used. Meaningless. :) Your words do not give them any weight just because you say so. :)

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 09:21 PM

Over-simplification to the point of being untrue. Not even a good try on your part.

Maybe not, but what you think is planned for me for the simple fact of not accepting Jesus is NOT good parenting, in my book. Hell because of that? Bah!

Hardly worth a slap on the hand or revocation of TV for a week. ;)

braces4impact

06-12-2007, 09:38 PM

Rush is my favorite band,

I knew I liked Scrog for some reason...;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIchqJoxFQ

bootlen

06-12-2007, 09:39 PM

What are you talking about? I can demonstrate scientific fact. You cannot demonstrate God. What's the diff? lol. I can't even believe you asked that question. :)

One man's mantra is another man's truth, I guess. I just gave you two examples... the ones you used. Meaningless. :) Your words do not give them any weight just because you say so. :)

Fair enough...provided the same holds true for you.

No, wait. That's compromise. But you are right..because I say so does not make it true. Rather, I say it because it is true.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 09:41 PM

Maybe not, but what you think is planned for me for the simple fact of not accepting Jesus is NOT good parenting, in my book. Hell because of that? Bah!

Hardly worth a slap on the hand or revocation of TV for a week. ;)

Condemnation is not a result of not accepting Christ. Condemnation is a result of disobedience. Jesus is the way to avoid that condemnation.

Now read this ^ slowly. You keep getting it mixed up.

braces4impact

06-12-2007, 10:01 PM

Condemnation is not a result of not accepting Christ. Condemnation is a result of disobedience. Jesus is the way to avoid that condemnation.

Now read this ^ slowly. You keep getting it mixed up.

disobeying who? a god..or people claiming that a god wants them to obey. because I see the latter and have never seen the former. that's the distinction that seems to get lost on you.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 10:22 PM

I knew I liked Scrog for some reason...;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIchqJoxFQ

Heh, yeah... that's a goodie. Thanks for the link. He ended with that big band thing one time when I saw them in concert too. Of course, the "band" (except for Rush of course) wasn't really there. I like how he mixed in all the old stuff like the tubes, bells and chimes.

The Professor. He's amazing. :)

bootlen

06-12-2007, 10:25 PM

disobeying who? a god..or people claiming that a god wants them to obey. because I see the latter and have never seen the former. that's the distinction that seems to get lost on you.

Butt out. Come back when you have a Green Bull.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 10:39 PM

Condemnation is not a result of not accepting Christ. Condemnation is a result of disobedience. Jesus is the way to avoid that condemnation.

Why can't I live the life of a saint (not saying that I am one... hypothetically speaking), not believe that Jesus was God incarnate (a great man yes), and not go to hell?

It doesn't make logical sense, man. :)

Andy Schoen

06-12-2007, 10:47 PM

Well since Bootlen broke the ice with a personal question I will do the same. Andy do you have a beard like on your avatar and about the same age? I am just curious. You have never changed it.
Facial hair, yes. Beard no. And perhaps not quite as old as my avatar, but probably older than geerair. :D

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 10:49 PM

Facial hair, yes. Beard no. And perhaps not quite as old as my avatar, but probably older than geerair. :D

Birthdate 1958 here, but it's nice to know that I can still call a couple of people "old farts" :p :D

Andy Schoen

06-12-2007, 10:58 PM

Birthdate 1958 here, but it's nice to know that I can still call a couple of people "old farts" :p :D
Actually, you're only 2 years younger than me. But I've got AARP hounding me for membership. :(

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:02 PM

But I've got AARP hounding me for membership.

I am just waiting for someone to offer me the "senior discount".

To the moon, Alice! ;)

You are not older than Geer by the way. He posted his birthdate in another topic. I forget what it is exactly, but just call him "Grampy". :)

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:04 PM

What are you talking about? I can demonstrate scientific fact. You cannot demonstrate God.

Sure I can...to one who would receive.

One man's mantra is another man's truth, I guess. I just gave you two examples... the ones you used. Meaningless. :) Your words do not give them any weight just because you say so.

From YOUR perspective.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:10 PM

Sure I can...to one who would receive.

You are forcing my hand - you may not like where this goes. Ok, so let's lay it on the line. Why can't I "recieve"?

From YOUR perspective.

Yes.. and I would like to think that my perspective is one of logic. You have still failed to explain the logical link between not believing and being self-important and/or selfish.

Andy Schoen

06-12-2007, 11:12 PM

To the moon, Alice! ;)

The Honeymooners was the funniest show I watched as a kid. I'm sure it was into reruns by then. :)

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:12 PM

Why can't I live the life of a saint (not saying that I am one... hypothetically speaking), not believe that Jesus was God incarnate (a great man yes), and not go to hell?

It doesn't make logical sense, man. :)

Sin is in the blood from birth. A holy God cannot tolerate sin at any level...in any amount. Otherwise, He would not be holy and He would not be God.

There will be only 2 places left in eternity...life or Heaven or in the presence of Holy God; and death or hell or out of the presence of Holy God.

If being "good" were enough, then Jesus died for nothing. He could have come down, showed us how to do it and skipped Calvary. But that's not the way it is.

We can be pretty bad, though...be a murderer, liar, thief, adulterer or any combination of those and still avoid hell...simply by receiving Christ as Savior. The vast majority of mankind will reject that offer just because of pride. How sad.

BTW, you are right. It does not make "logical" sense.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:22 PM

We can be pretty bad, though...be a murderer, liar, thief, adulterer or any combination of those and still avoid hell...simply by receiving Christ as Savior. The vast majority of mankind will reject that offer just because of pride. How sad.

So, let me get this straight.

I can go through life... and NOT murder, NOT lie, NOT steal, NOT covet thy neighbors wife, and NOT any combination of these... but if I don't accept Jesus as my savior... I will go to hell.

While...

Someone that HAS murdered, HAS lied, HAS stolen, HAS been an adulterer and even ALL OF THE ABOVE, will avoid hell just because he accepts Christ as savior?

Boot, crap... this is getting beyond bizzarre. I don't wan't to offend you... but you have to be out of your freakin mind to think that. Sorry... that crap is just screwed up.

You call that conservative values? Have you lost your mind?

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:29 PM

You are forcing my hand - you may not like where this goes. Ok, so let's lay it on the line. Why can't I "recieve"?

You can. But you won't. (Yes, I know. We've been here before. Full circle?)

Yes.. and I would like to think that my perspective is one of logic. You have still failed to explain the logical link between not believing and being self-important and/or selfish.

You ever create anything? No. I mean REALLY create anything...from scratch? Like in create your own dust and then make something living and breathing from that dust?

God did. And He has the authority to snuff you out like a match. But He does not. Why? Because He loves you and wants a very personal, intimate relationship with you. But you reject Him outright. That grieves Him tremendously.But He still gives you opportunity after opportunity to be reconciled with Him.

But you are too selfish and want Him to run things according to YOUR standards. Who died and made YOU the standard maker? Christ died but He remains the Standard Maker. He proved Himself worthy of that by His death and resurrection. And YOU want to claim it for yourself. That's pretty self-important.

Lucifer tried the same thing and is condemned...cast out of Heaven. Any particular reason you want to follow him rather than the God who wants to reconcile with you? (Rhetorical)

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:32 PM

So, let me get this straight.

I can go through life... and NOT murder, NOT lie, NOT steal, NOT covet thy neighbors wife, and NOT any combination of these... but if I don't accept Jesus as my savior... I will go to hell.

While...

Someone that HAS murdered, HAS lied, HAS stolen, HAS been an adulterer and even ALL OF THE ABOVE, will avoid hell just because he accepts Christ as savior?

Boot, crap... this is getting beyond bizzarre. I don't wan't to offend you... but you have to be out of your freakin mind to think that. Sorry... that crap is just screwed up.

You call that conservative values? Have you lost your mind?

LOL! I know. I know. It sounds crazy at the face of it. But, scrog, you got it right. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Check that...it's what God has said. And He put it in writing. Ya oughta read it some time.

I have murdered. I have stolen. I have lied. I have committed adultery. But I am sealed by the Holy Spirit for eternity. And nothing in all of creation can take me from His hand because Christ died for me and I trust Him to my salvation.

geerair

06-12-2007, 11:35 PM

You are not older than Geer by the way. He posted his birthdate in another topic. I forget what it is exactly, but just call him "Grampy". :)Yeah, I passed the fifty threshold four years ago.

But at least I'm still young at heart. :D :D

geerair

06-12-2007, 11:37 PM

LOL! I know. I know. It sounds crazy at the face of it. But, scrog, you got it right. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Check that...it's what God has said. And He put it in writing. Ya oughta read it some time.

I have murdered. I have stolen. I have lied. I have committed adultery. But I am sealed by the Holy Spirit for eternity. And nothing in all of creation can take me from His hand because Christ died for me and I trust Him to my salvation.That is just sad in so many ways.

Praise Zeus, I'm an Atheist.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:40 PM

Wow, Boot. Just wow.

I will willingly endure hell. Before I accept crap like that... no matter what is written... no matter the philosophy... I will WILLINGLY endure hell for all eternity before I bow before a god like that.

We should stop talking about this now.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:41 PM

That is just sad in so many ways.

For you. For me, I have never had so much fun in my life since I don't do that stuff anymore.

I don't expect you to understand, Green Bull or no.:cool:

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:43 PM

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:45 PM

Scripture be damned! Listen to yourself! My god, man!

geerair

06-12-2007, 11:51 PM

For you. For me, I have never had so much fun in my life since I don't do that stuff anymore. Sad for anybody who follows such an pathetically warped policy.

However it does explain your behavior and attitude.

You poor deluded man.

I don't expect you to understand, Green Bull or no.:cool:I understand all too well.

Thank Zeus, I'm an Atheist.

bootlen

06-12-2007, 11:52 PM

Scripture be damned! Listen to yourself! My god, man!

Read Saul/Paul's story. It might help you understand.

scrogdog

06-12-2007, 11:55 PM

No thanks. I seek no understanding of this philosophy... if I ever did.

Man. I can't believe... you don't even see what you just said.

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:04 AM

No thanks. I seek no understanding of this philosophy... if I ever did.

Man. I can't believe... you don't even see what you just said.Now see there, aren't you glad you are an infidel? :D :D :D

bootlen

06-13-2007, 12:06 AM

No thanks. I seek no understanding of this philosophy... if I ever did.

Man. I can't believe... you don't even see what you just said.

Okay. What did I say? Only that there is forgiveness for the vilest offender provided he repents and receives Christ. It is extremely radical but it is what God has written.

What you overlook is the fact that there is not one single human being in all of history, outside of Christ, who has not broken at least one Commandment. "There is not one righteous, no, not one." We are ALL in need of a Savior.

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 12:10 AM

Hi gentleman,

Well, this was an interesting read! I am sorry I was not here to carry on with you, but there were other things that needed doing.

Scrog my friend: I agree that what Bootsie said sounds a bit off the wall from a worldly view. But IF (emphasis intended) God is real, and IF God actually did do as He said, and IF He is indeed the king of the universe, then could He not make the rules however HE wanted? And do we have to understand them?

If I may be so bold: What I hear is that you want to 'earn' your salvation by your works. What that does is glorify you for the good works. But my friend, that is contrary to the system God has ordained. This is the only way it can be totally fair to all folks regardless.

You see, salvation does not depend on me, it depends on God and Christ. All we have to do is bend the knee (another way to say that is to swallow our pride), and accept the free gift. Really tuff thing to do there, right?

What will happen when one does this (accept Christ as their savior), is that their eyes (internal, not literally seeing physical light) will be opened to a multitude of spiritual things that formerly they could not see (consciously perceive). Now you said you were (in my words) a seeker... So tell me what could be more fun than having one's eyes opened to a whole new realm of things to seek/explore in a spiritual world that was beforehand closed to one's perception?

You and I could talk until the sun did not shine about this and not cover it all, and it would be a GREAT conversation.

But each of us has to choose faith over works. It is similar to the law/grace thingy I suggested a while back. BTW: Would you rather be judged for your screw-ups, or would you rather God see you as 'holy, richeous, and blameless' (Scripture BTW) because of what Christ did on the cross (all you have to do is accept it).

Your choice there big guy. But I will say this, I would hate for you to be 'left behind' when it is all over. You would be a good one to converse with 'up there'.

Even Geer will be fun up there, as his head will be straightened out when he gets there... :D

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:11 AM

What you overlook is the fact that there is not one single human being in all of history, outside of Christ, who has not broken at least one Commandment. "There is not one righteous, no, not one." We are ALL in need of a Savior.What commandments have infants broken?

bootlen

06-13-2007, 12:15 AM

What commandments have infants broken?

Original sin only BUT...

They are not held accountable for sin and so have a place in Heaven guaranteed until they reach the time in life when they understand right from wrong.

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 12:16 AM

What commandments have infants broken?

They were born in sin Geer, study the book of Romans carefully if you dare, and you will find answers you do not want to hear.

Besides, Scripture has an answer for children that physically die before they are old enough (read that not mentally ready to understand 'God consciousness'). If you are real good, and do not act like an un-known A$$, I will tell you what the Scripture is and explain it to you... :D

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:17 AM

Scrog my friend: I agree that what Bootsie said sounds a bit off the wall from a worldly view. But IF (emphasis intended) God is real, and IF God actually did do as He said, and IF He is indeed the king of the universe, then could He not make the rules however HE wanted? And do we have to understand them?Any god that would come up with such a pathetic policy as boots portrays is not worthy of the title god.

Even Geer will be fun up there, as his head will be straightened out when he gets there... :DDon't include me in your fantasy world.

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 12:21 AM

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:21 AM

They were born in sin Geer, study the book of Romans carefully if you dare, and you will find answers you do not want to hear. But what commandments have they broken? What sins have they personally committed?

Besides, Scripture has an answer for children that physically die before they are not old enough (read that not mentally ready to understand 'God consciousness'). If you are real good, and do not act like an un-known A$$, I will tell you what the Scripture is and explain it to you... :DWell, if as you say they are branded with sin but cannot accept jc, then off to hell with them right?

Your god needs to do something about the consistency gap he has.

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 12:22 AM

Any god that would come up with such a pathetic policy as boots portrays is not worthy of the title god. Don't include me in your fantasy world.

First Geer, who are you to pass judgement on the creator of the universe? Kinda arrogant there big boy... Oh, I forgot, you are from Texas... :D

And you know as well as I do that you WILL be up there whether you like it or not. Sorry Geer, I know that truth better than you do not know it... If I never meet you here, I will get to meet you up there... :cool:

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:25 AM

Original sin only BUT...

They are not held accountable for sin and so have a place in Heaven guaranteed until they reach the time in life when they understand right from wrong.So what if they die before they are able to understand right and wrong?

What if they are born mentally handicapped and will never understand right from wrong?

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 12:28 AM

GA, of course, God can make any rules that he wants.

In life... we look at our leaders... and decide if the entity is WORTHY of leading.

Take what you and Boot are saying, and show me that your God is worth my time. I know I am getting pissed and I am going to affend someone somewhere... BUT

Go back and read. You have to be sh*tting me.

Your god is an ass. Sure... he can make the rules. What happens on Earth when people make rules that suck? We just bow down to them?

Wow. Now that I am getting a more accurate picture of Christianity, I have to say that I am quite surprised that so many conservatives follow this since it clearly does not follow any sort of what I think would be "family" or traditional conservative philosophy. Quite the opposite in fact.

Hi Scrog,

Well, I am fine with you getting warm under the collar. Sometimes we need a little shaking to see clearly (at least it tends to work that way in my life sometimes).

I would kindly suggest that you consider that if indeed HE is God, and indeed that HE can make the rules because HE is God, then maybe we should be concerned if we fit His plan... rather than Him fitting ours??? Just a thought there guy.

And I would suggest that perhaps I have not explained Christianity well, because I do not think you have the picture I would paint... however:

I do not know from where you post, but it is about 12:30 AM here in a suburb of Atlanta, and I need some ZZZ's.

May we possibly carry this on tomorrow (well today) after I have done that ritual thingy called ZZZ's, THX!

bootlen

06-13-2007, 12:28 AM

So what if they die before they are able to understand right and wrong?

What if they are born mentally handicapped and will never understand right from wrong?

Asked and answered. Their place is guaranteed in Heaven.

The 3rd grader out of town?

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 12:29 AM

Now see there, aren't you glad you are an infidel?

Heh... thanks for the laugh. :)

The disturbing thing is that I don't even think these guys actually know what they are saying. If they do... I may have to resign from anything to do with them.

I'll be a libertarian now. Not so bad... rights... constitition and all that... ;)

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:30 AM

First Geer, who are you to pass judgement on the creator of the universe?I am that I am.

Kinda arrogant there big boy... Nah, just rational.

And you know as well as I do that you WILL be up there whether you like it or not. Again, that is your fantasy world, not mine.

Sorry Geer, I know that truth better than you do not know it... If I never meet you here, I will get to meet you up there... :cool:You know a crutch when you see it.

Sad how some people reject rationality and turn to the supernatural as crutch because they fear not only life but death.

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:31 AM

glitch

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:35 AM

glitch

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 12:40 AM

Tripple post there Geer, did I get under your collar? Looks like you are having a hard time here... :D Confirms my perception about you...

Scrog: Lets carry on again. I think there are things that are yet not discussed.

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 12:42 AM

But what commandments have they broken? What sins have they personally committed?

Well, if as you say they are branded with sin but cannot accept jc, then off to hell with them right?

Your god needs to do something about the consistency gap he has.

As usual, Geer is so high in his perception of his brain that he cannot even read what he is responding to. Kinda like the king and his new clothes... :D

The answer is there clear as sunshine Geer, IF you are willing to listen to the creator of the universe that is.

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:44 AM

Heh... thanks for the laugh. :)

The disturbing thing is that I don't even think these guys actually know what they are saying. If they do... I may have to resign from anything to do with them.

I'll be a libertarian now. Not so bad... rights... constitition and all that... ;)Anything but a libertarian.

Braces has already caught that disease. :D :D :D

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:49 AM

Asked and answered. Their place is guaranteed in Heaven.

The 3rd grader out of town?So what about the original sin thingy? Does that just go away?

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:52 AM

Tripple post there Geer, did I get under your collar? Looks like you are having a hard time here... TRIPPLE? Looks like you are the one who is sweating. ;) ;) ;)

geerair

06-13-2007, 12:57 AM

As usual, Geer is so high in his perception of his brain that he cannot even read what he is responding to. Kinda like the king and his new clothes... :DWell, I know you are embarrassed by these goofy policies that you have to believe in if you want to be a good god groupie but they are afterall what you have chosen to believe.

The answer is there clear as sunshine Geer, IF you are willing to listen to the creator of the universe that is.Sorry Ga, that is your crutch not mine. You should really try to defeat your fears of life and death without leaning on ghosts and goblins.

bootlen

06-13-2007, 01:50 AM

So what about the original sin thingy? Does that just go away?

Uh, when ya get to Heaven, there is no sin. So, yeah, it goes away...into the "sea of forgetfulness".

RoBoTeq

06-13-2007, 02:11 AM

I'm agnostic about atheism.

oloenneker

06-13-2007, 02:14 AM

Uh, when ya get to Heaven, there is no sin. So, yeah, it goes away...into the "sea of forgetfulness".

So, when ya get into heaven, you can just "sin" away as much as you want????

Wow, just wow!!

bootlen

06-13-2007, 07:29 AM

So, when ya get into heaven, you can just "sin" away as much as you want????

Wow, just wow!!

You never read the Bible, either?

There is no sin in eternity. No murder or desire to. No lying or desire to. No theft or desire to. No adultery or desire to. No sinning or desire.

ozone drone

06-13-2007, 07:50 AM

Do you really think some people wake up one morning and say " I'm a nerd. I wanna be cool and chic. I know ... I'll be an athiest!!"

I believe most people give the question of the existance of God ALOT of thought.

bootlen

06-13-2007, 08:34 AM

Do you really think some people wake up one morning and say " I'm a nerd. I wanna be cool and chic. I know ... I'll be an athiest!!"

Geer did. It didn't work, though. He got the athiest part but he's still a nerd.

acmanko

06-13-2007, 08:55 AM

Well I'm glad sex is not a sin, cause if I make it to Heaven , I'm going to be f--k!ng happy.

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 08:55 AM

originally posted by scrogdog

Your god is an ass
You just can't help yourself, can you?
And it always occurs when you have your 2 member, card carrying atheist troll, captive audience. :rolleyes:

Anyone that would condemn another man's God without even reading and attempting to learn the purported words their supposed God has conveyed, needs take a step back and perform some individual inspection, and I'm not referring to you looking to see if your fly is zippered shut.

You are solidifying the OP's point and he's sitting back reading you and laughing at your responses.
Just because you think someone's faith is exaggerated or contrived doesn't indicate that there isn't a creator and spiritual influences all around you.
Yeah, I know..."You would say something like; I'm so intuitive that if I can't see it, there certainly must not be anything there".
But the suggestion that nothing is hidden from our awareness is preposterous when we know that we must review collective experiences... and not just your experience.
You see how that works? And it goes back to an old argument I had with geer about the same type of thing; Just because you haven't witnessed something, doesn't mean that someone else hasn't or that it truly does not exist.

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 09:06 AM

Do you really think some people wake up one morning and say " I'm a nerd. I wanna be cool and chic. I know ... I'll be an athiest!!"
No. Many of them do render God inconvenient though.

I believe most people give the question of the existance of God ALOT of thought.
I don't see that at all. I'm sure they give it thought... but not "alot" and certainly when we look at the things that are happening in the world, it's easier to conclude that mankind gives God or other spiritual matters very little thought indeed.

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 09:12 AM

Geer did. It didn't work, though. He got the athiest part but he's still a nerd.
2484

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 09:15 AM

Just because you think someone's faith is exaggerated or contrived doesn't indicate that there isn't a creator and spiritual influences all around you.

Whoa there, big fella.

What I just did was to condemn religion, not God.

Big difference.

Let me put it another way, if I were to suddenly find Jesus and God, it would be a personal and private thing and I would be in agreement with Jefferson who said "my mind is my church".

I could only conclude that God himself would find what Bootlen has just said to be utterly ridiculous. I would find it impossible to believe that God would condemn any of his children to eternal damnation over such silliness.

Now, if that's offensive... too bad. The philosophy of Christianity is offensive. What do you think of that?

bootlen

06-13-2007, 09:27 AM

I could only conclude that God himself would find what Bootlen has just said to be utterly ridiculous. I would find it impossible to believe that God would condemn any of his children to eternal damnation over such silliness.

Not every person is God's child. Only those who have received Christ. :eek: (There's a can of worms for ya.)

Now, if that's offensive... too bad. The philosophy of Christianity is offensive. What do you think of that?

I would be among the first to say that the "philosophy" of Christianity is offensive. Offensive so much that it's Namesake was convicted of trumped up charges, scourged, and crucified. Durn-tootin' it's offensive. Truth is offensive. It turns most people off because of their vanity and pride.

What do you think of that?

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 09:32 AM

I would be among the first to say that the "philosophy" of Christianity is offensive. Offensive so much that it's Namesake was convicted of trumped up charges, scourged, and crucified. Durn-tootin' it's offensive. Truth is offensive. It turns most people off because of their vanity and pride.

What do you think of that?

Well, I think you are welcome to your opinion. However, I don't think much of your position in this matter with regards to also being a conservative. It seems that the God you describe violates about every principle with regards to crime and punishment that we all SAY that we hold near and dear.

If I find God, trust me, my belief won't be close at all to yours. And if God turns out to be as you describe him, then as I said, I will WILLINGLY burn for all eternity before bowing before such a being.

bootlen

06-13-2007, 09:37 AM

BTW, God does not condemn anyone. Each person condemns him/herself by choice. God is trying to keep us out of hell. He sent His Son to pay the penalty for our waywardness.

Yes. He is the Judge. But He is also our Advocate if we just call on His name.

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 09:40 AM

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 09:51 AM

TRIPPLE? Looks like you are the one who is sweating. ;) ;) ;)

Well Geer, looks like you have proven beyond any doubts that you are indeed full of yourself (shi..whoops, spin). You and I know that you posted that post 3 times because you were hot under the collar over what I put in your face. Can't handle God's truth there big guy? You are not the first, nor will you be the last to gets a dose of Spiritual reality, how does it feel?

To the folks that were not here: In post #100 Geer responds to being questioned if he is qualified to pass judgement on the Creator of the universe, and posts #101, and 102 were the same post. It took Geer about one minute to go back and change #101 and 102. Anyone wonder why the 'all knowing' Geer that has ALL the answers and is sooo cool and perfect in his mind; gets really flustered and screws up when taken to task over God's ultimate authority? Care to explain that one Geer?

Sorry big guy, but you have blown that smoke a little too long. Folks are seeing through you, and the air is clearing. But there is a silver lining on the bottom of the cloud: God is a patient and forgiving God, and He understands. All that is required from you is a changed heart. You will get there Geer, and the bet still stands: I have a beer that says you will come to your senses about God before your physical body ceases to function.

geerair

06-13-2007, 10:29 AM

Well Geer, looks like you have proven beyond any doubts that you are indeed full of yourself (shi..whoops, spin). You and I know that you posted that post 3 times because you were hot under the collar over what I put in your face. Can't handle God's truth there big guy? You are not the first, nor will you be the last to gets a dose of Spiritual reality, how does it feel?

To the folks that were not here: In post #100 Geer responds to being questioned if he is qualified to pass judgement on the Creator of the universe, and posts #101, and 102 were the same post. It took Geer about one minute to go back and change #101 and 102. Anyone wonder why the 'all knowing' Geer that has ALL the answers and is sooo cool and perfect in his mind; gets really flustered and screws up when taken to task over God's ultimate authority? Care to explain that one Geer? Ahhahahahahahah.

Now our Freud wannabe is psychoanalyzing my computer. :p :p :p

Sorry to disappoint you boy but the deep dark secret to the multiple posts had its genesis in a slow computer or IP.

I expect this excited GA so much he forgot how to spell correctly.

Sorry big guy, but you have blown that smoke a little too long. Folks are seeing through you, and the air is clearing. This from an amateur head-shrinker/conspiracy buff. :p :p

But there is a silver lining on the bottom of the cloud: God is a patient and forgiving God, and He understands. All that is required from you is a changed heart. You will get there Geer, and the bet still stands: I have a beer that says you will come to your senses about God before your physical body ceases to function.You already owe me beer from your other ill-considered bets. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 10:30 AM

It seems that the God you describe violates about every principle with regards to crime and punishment that we all SAY that we hold near and dear.
Well then, educate yourself about it to see if the description is valid or not.
After that, specify just what principles God has violated.

If I find God, trust me, my belief won't be close at all to yours. And if God turns out to be as you describe him, then as I said, I will WILLINGLY burn for all eternity before bowing before such a being.
You will find God scrog. And it will be every bit of consciousness you had dreamed it would be.

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 10:33 AM

Wow, I wish I had gotten here earlier; you guys have had a lively discussion well worth reading!

Hey Scrog: If you are game, here is an explanation for you.

First, I want to define the question again so we will be on the same page:

As I read it; we discussed that person A lived a 'good' life and Person B lived an evil life. Person A was fair and honest, he did not knowingly lie, cheat, steal, murder, or commit adultry. Person B did all of the above, knowingly, and reveled in it. And Bootsie is saying that God will condemn person A to hell, yet save person B based on faith in Jesus Christ as their savior.

And to reference a different post, I think we did discuss that if indeed God is the ruler of the universe, then He can make the rules???

OK: Look in the book of Genesis: What did the tree in the garden of Eden represent? The KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Lets put it another way: The ability to decide right and wrong based on my thinking rather than god's leadership. Now lets read the story a little: Last verse of Ch 2: And they were in the garden, naked and not ashamed. Then in Ch 3 we find that they ate the tree, and their eyes were opened, they saw good and evil, and they decided they were naked and were ashamed.

Now tell me here: What changed from ch 2 to ch 3? First they were naked and not ashamed, then they saw that they were naked and were ashamed. The answer is that in their minds they perceived things differently. Before they were 'seeing' (I will use that word to mean perception) through a viewpoint that was from God. After, they were seeing from a different viewpoint.

Lets backtrack a little here: Before Adam and Eve 'fell', they were told by God that if they ate the tree, they would die. Well, they continued to physically function, so it was not physical death. Was God a liar? If one sees 'death' as physical (science would say that), and one is not willing to look beyond what they 'want' to see, then one might say yes God is a liar.

But no, God was not referring to physical death. You see, in Scripture, death in a Spiritual sense is understood as not being able to have fellowship (communicate two ways) with God. (Think of sitting at a table having a beer with your Dad--but that Dad is all knowing, all powerful, and is the king of the universe.) God can watch from a distance, but like Bootsie said, He cannot commune with someone that has sin in their life.

So in a sense, we are 'dead' to God, and we cannot 'hang' with Him. But God did not like this idea, and wanted to give us a way out (because he loves us, like a father loves his kids...regardless of how bad the kids screw up).

A little side track here: Do you know of many Fathers that have dis-owned their kids because the kid screwed up? It is called love, and it covers a multitude of short-comings. But at the same time, those wise fathers make the kids accountable to their (the father's) rules, whether the kids like it, agree with it, or for that matter understand it.

Not lets move forward: In the book of Romans in the Bible, it is referenced that as the decendants of Adam, we all inherited that knowledge of good and evil. This is referenced as 'death'. It is also stated that we all have sinned. So we all need a Savior. BTW: ever wonder why a movie with a lone guy that 'saves the day' is sooo popular? We are wired in our souls to appreciate the concept of a savior... but we seem to baulk at THE Savior for some reason...

To go forward: Scripture is CLEAR that salvation is by 'faith in Jesus Christ'. If you want, I will type out pages of Scripture with explanations, and if you want details, I can reference the original languages and show you the translation of each word in exact detail (I have a whole shelf of reference books to do this, and have taught Bible study classes for decades).

Now lets go back and review:
*God can make the rules
*Man has this issue with thinking he (not God) makes the final judgement about good and evil
*God provided a way out if we will accept it (even though it does sound a little strange)

So you see Scrog: God has this plan. And yeah, it does sound kinda screwy to a worldly viewpoint. But if one wants to study and understand where God is coming from, then it will become a little more clear.

Now my friend, I am going to challenge you (as a friend, not as an enemy): I think I read that you are a thinker and a seeker. O K, how about lets seek God and see what we find? I can tell you that you will be amazed beyond your imagination, but you will need to make the choice to 'go there'. Remember a few posts back when I suggested that when one becomes a Christian, their eyes are opened to a whole realm of Spiritual stuff? There is a lifetime of fun seeking in that area, but it is not available until one 'joins' the Christian club so to say... and besides, you would have all us KA's hanging with you.... whoops, that might scare me away... :(

If you want to talk more about this w/out the pressure of a public forum, Email me (in the profile).

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 10:39 AM

Ahhahahahahahah.

Now our Freud wannabe is psychoanalyzing my computer. :p :p :p

Sorry to disappoint you boy but the deep dark secret to the multiple posts had its genesis in a slow computer or IP.

I expect this excited GA so much he forgot how to spell correctly.

This from an amateur head-shrinker/conspiracy buff. :p :p

You already owe me beer from your other ill-considered bets. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Smoke will get you nowhere this time Geer, the cat is out of the bag.

Admit it Geer, God poked you in the brain, and it hurt... :eek: And if things run the course I have seen over the years, it will happen again and again. God has a way of doing this.

I will let it go for now. But you know what the truth is, and I suspect you will be seeing it again and again...

geerair

06-13-2007, 10:39 AM

Any "judge" who would send an innocent to hell, even though they live a fantastic life... and just because he did not find Jesus to be God incarnate will never be MY God.

Ever.

So, if I did happen to find Him, I would choose to not beleive your version of things. Because "God" whatever or whoever he is, if he claims to be a loving father.... should ACT like one.Hell scrog, you can see from this thread and the "what religion" thread that consistency and logic are not exactly big selling points for religion as espoused by the thumpers here.

They can't even agree on grammar much less doctrine. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

geerair

06-13-2007, 10:44 AM

Smoke will get you nowhere this time Geer, the cat is out of the bag.

Admit it Geer, God poked you in the brain, and it hurt... :eek: And if things run the course I have seen over the years, it will happen again and again. God has a way of doing this. Yes, your god slowed down my computer or the IP just to give me a warning shot across the bow.

Who knew your god was up on the latest technology? :p :p

I will let it go for now. But you know what the truth is, and I suspect you will be seeing it again and again...Actually, I would like to see you man up and face your life and death without the crutch of superstition.

At the very least it might keep you from making such silly statements. ;) ;)

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 10:46 AM

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 10:50 AM

After that, specify just what principles God has violated.

A person has just come and murdered my family, Chill, and brutally raped my 10-year-old daughter.

As men, what do we want to see happen to this guy? Do we want to see him escape what he is due because of an insanity plea?

Before God, this man will go to heaven if he simply says he beleives. I however, will not.

That is wrong on so many levels it is not even funny! You don't see how this violates conservative principles? C'mon... I know you better than that. After all... you happen to be one!

geerair

06-13-2007, 10:56 AM

When I read the story of Genesis, I could only think of how unfair it was. As you say, they had no knowledge of evil, and yet somehow God expects them to detect that the serpent was lying.Forget the lying part.

Here is a talking serpent and none of the people in the garden thinks that is a little odd? :eek: :eek:

They seem to be more concerned about a trivial matter involving an apple.

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 10:58 AM

*grin*

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 11:05 AM

If you think I have never read the bible, or never sought God, you would be wrong.

God is not there.

Now, God can make any rules he wants, but you know what GA? I stand up for my principles before both men and gods. Regardless of personal cost or consequence.

Any God who would codemn an innocent to eternal damnation will never be my God. Full stop. Period. I don't need to understand the underlying explanations or anything of the sort.

Why do we punish our children, GA? How do we punish them? What do we hope to accomplish by issuing punishment? What is our goal? Does sending an innocent to hell for all eternity accomplish the same objective that we attempt to acheive with our own children?

As for this;

When I read the story of Genesis, I could only think of how unfair it was. As you say, they had no knowledge of evil, and yet somehow God expects them to detect that the serpent was lying.

It doesn't make any sort of sense at all. The God being described here in this topic is a horrible and ugly parent.

Yeah, I'm coming on too strong and I know it. I am sorry for it in a way. In others ways I am not... at least not as much as I usually would be.

Unfair in whose eyes SCrog? Remember, the king of the universe makes the rules, and if we do not like them, we can rebel all we want. But the results are the same.

I might add here that while God will forgive and move on, the world's system will punish for mistakes that harm others. And this is God ordained, read the Scriptures, you will find it there. So really, we are not saying that God is letting bad folks off the hook. He is only providing a way to clean up our acts after we screw up.

Kinda like a Known A$$ that is mature enough to admit their mistakes in public???

And no, Adam and Eve knew exactly what they were doing, and chose to do it. And they paid for that choice.

You see Scrog, that is the way it works. We have to be accountable.

I think you are stuck on this thingy that you believe God is not fair... But tell me this: who wrote the rules of fair, and are they found in the Bible?

Folks practiced racial discrimination years ago, and thought it was fair. Now a days they think equality is fair... so mankind has proven that his view points are questionable when it comes to fair...

If you are indeed a seeker there my friend, seek to learn beyond your own understanding... (I did not say that in a demeaning way, but as a challenge to grow beyond).

I will tell you this: I have had a lot of times in my life where I was 'mad at God' for a long time until I understood. After understanding, it became clear that I was the one that needed to stretch a little.

Contrary to the old saying, us old pups can learn new things if we want to... :)

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 11:08 AM

And while I am enjoying this discussion, I also need to move on and go do the work given to me to do...

It has been fun guys and gals, but work is work...

Have a GREAT one today!

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 11:14 AM

GA, you are more than welcome to reconcile these issues however you like.

God can do anything he wants. But what is unacceptable is unnacceptable, God or not.

And, of course, the fact that he will committ to hell innocent people. There is nothing that reconciles this for me. If it is ok with you, then it is.

I am accountable. To myself. A far more important accountability. Why would I care what a God who condems innocents thinks of me?

If you feel the need to be threatened with a spanking or else, fine. We are all different. Some respond to carrots, others respond to sticks.

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 11:15 AM

Have a good day, GA.

Maybe I'll be calmed down by the time you return. :)

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 11:50 AM

Have a good day, GA.

Maybe I'll be calmed down by the time you return. :)

THX for the good wishes. It is an interesting week, I will type about it tonite.

Just a quick note: If I had a 10 year old daughter, and someone raped here, he would already be dead, and I probably would be in jail... Christianity or not. So I understand what you are saying.

That is, unless a good lawyer could spin it for me...Hey, wonder if Geer missed his calling... he should have been a lawyer... :D

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 12:15 PM

A person has just come and murdered my family, Chill, and brutally raped my 10-year-old daughter.
As men, what do we want to see happen to this guy? Do we want to see him escape what he is due because of an insanity plea?
Ah, but man's punishment is all you know. The ultimate punishment will be rendered by God.

Before God, this man will go to heaven if he simply says he beleives. I however, will not.
Who said that? Man cannot dictate terms for God.
God will decide where man will spend eternity and whether his repentance is legitimate.
Just "saying so" doesn't make it true.

That is wrong on so many levels it is not even funny! You don't see how this violates conservative principles? C'mon... I know you better than that. After all... you happen to be one!
Yes scrog, I do see how anyone entering into paradise who has committed mortal sins of that degree is fundamentally illogical. And I have never made a case that indicates I understand it.
I believe we all pay to varying degrees for every single deed we have committed, whether it be a loving act or otherwise.

scrogdog

06-13-2007, 02:32 PM

Ah, but man's punishment is all you know. The ultimate punishment will be rendered by God.

Well, that is sort of the problem I am getting at. See, here on Earth, laws are more than what is written on a piece of paper. If things were as simple as what the words say, then we would not need trials, judges and juries.

Thou shalt not steal. An excellent credo. But there is quite a difference between a CEO who bilks his company’s employees out of their retirement funds and a man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. In principle, neither is right. In practice, there are things to consider between the two cases that go beyond the words.

God will decide where man will spend eternity and whether his repentance is legitimate.

Well, I hope that what you are saying here is that God would in fact proceed as above. Considering each case on individual merit. If I am reading Boot correctly, he sees no such leeway. The law is the law.

Yes scrog, I do see how anyone entering into paradise who has committed mortal sins of that degree is fundamentally illogical. And I have never made a case that indicates I understand it.

I believe we all pay to varying degrees for every single deed we have committed, whether it be a loving act or otherwise.

Well, I surely do not understand it either. How any system could possibly reward someone who has performed crimes against humanity while at the same time condemning an innocent simply because he does not believe that Jesus was God is unfathomable.

As above… it is a matter of degree. A non-believer is not evil just because he doesn’t believe just like a Christian is not necessarily a good person just because they claim to be Christian.

This gets back a bit to what I was trying to say to GA. Put your parent hat on, Chill. What punishment should be eternal? What good would it do anyone?

If someone is to be removed from society or from heaven, then it should be the person who performed high crimes against humanity. Not unbelievers.

Seems to me that if God is a caring father, then he should be patient and try to get us to learn.

It would be better if punishment were not eternal in some cases. It would be better if in some way God uses punishment the way we use punishment here in Earth… to teach… not to banish.

Is there anything in scripture that would prevent a soul from returning to Earth for a second try? :) Perhaps God might say to me at judgement, “I am disappointed in you but I am not giving up. Take a few years off in hell, and think about your fate. At some point I will return you to Earth. Your mind will not remember this time, but your soul will. I am giving you a second chance to learn. I strongly suggest that you make use of it.”

Now THAT is punishment issued by a concerned and loving parent.

Sentencing a non-believer to eternal damnation is akin to executing the man who stole a loaf of bread.

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 06:30 PM

Well, that is sort of the problem I am getting at. See, here on Earth, laws are more than what is written on a piece of paper. If things were as simple as what the words say, then we would not need trials, judges and juries.
I'm not sure I understand this scrog.
We communicate using the written word as well as the spoken word.
They help educate and instruct us. Words help mold us.
So, I'm not sure what the point is. The written word is what we use to make, enforce and interpret every law currently on the books. It is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. But certainly a vital part of who we are and what we decide to do in any given time in our life.

Thou shalt not steal. An excellent credo. But there is quite a difference between a CEO who bilks his company’s employees out of their retirement funds and a man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. In principle, neither is right. In practice, there are things to consider between the two cases that go beyond the words.
Definitely! And my God is merciful and loving.
He laughs with me and it's a hearty laugh.
I see his face in the eyes of my pets and sometimes in people, but not very often.
I'm not a fundamentalist at all so when I hear the term, I cringe.
I like to think of myself as a recovering Catholic", for lack of a better stereotype.:D

Well, I hope that what you are saying here is that God would in fact proceed as above. Considering each case on individual merit. If I am reading Boot correctly, he sees no such leeway. The law is the law.
Well, I guess we will or won't find out in due time scrog.
I respect your opinions. I respect everyone's faith as long as I get the same consideration. I feel that is how my father would want me to conduct myself...with a fundamental respect for all and an intolerance for disrespect from any. :p

Well, I surely do not understand it either. How any system could possibly reward someone who has performed crimes against humanity while at the same time condemning an innocent simply because he does not believe that Jesus was God is unfathomable.
Well, Christians do believe that if you have been offered Christ as saviour and you reject that offering, then you would be lost. Every religion does that as a means to cultivate ideas, whether those ideas have merit or not.
Ultimately, my faith and hope is that a loving creator reaps what he has sown and puts all souls where they belong.

As above… it is a matter of degree. A non-believer is not evil just because he doesn’t believe just like a Christian is not necessarily a good person just because they claim to be Christian.
Oh, no doubt about it.
Christ himself was a rebel. And he showed a fair amount of contempt for the frauds of the world, that is, those he observed pretending to be pious and above it all.

This gets back a bit to what I was trying to say to GA. Put your parent hat on, Chill. What punishment should be eternal? What good would it do anyone?
A punishment of brutal rape, murder, not in defense, and torture such as the one you described earlier would certainly get a vote from me to be "eternal", yes? What good what it do anyone? That's really not a question a simple bloke like me could speculate about.
I like to think of it as a filing system.
Good souls over here....bad souls down here :D :D :D
But seriously, I can't even comprehend God on that level.

If someone is to be removed from society or from heaven, then it should be the person who performed high crimes against humanity. Not unbelievers.
I believe God has expectations. And I believe his expectations will be met...one way or the other. :D

Seems to me that if God is a caring father, then he should be patient and try to get us to learn.
It's been my experience that he does try to get us to learn with the gifts he has given us.

It would be better if punishment were not eternal in some cases. It would be better if in some way God uses punishment the way we use punishment here in Earth… to teach… not to banish.
That's a very important point and one that I ponder alot.
There are even some who believe in varying degrees of awareness in varying dimensions...all to either guide someone to heal or wound.
Interesting stuff.

Is there anything in scripture that would prevent a soul from returning to Earth for a second try? :) Perhaps God might say to me at judgement, “I am disappointed in you but I am not giving up. Take a few years off in hell, and think about your fate. At some point I will return you to Earth. Your mind will not remember this time, but your soul will. I am giving you a second chance to learn. I strongly suggest that you make use of it.”Now THAT is punishment issued by a concerned and loving parent.
Kinda' like healing...step by step.
Unfortunately, scriptural fact to back up these types of hypotheticals is very weak. Catholics were (and still are) soundly admonished for using illustrations of Purgatory in paintings that reflected RCC thinking.
Either way, I like your reasoning on the matter scrog.

sline-dawg

06-13-2007, 07:44 PM

I always wondered why people incarcerated in prison , found the Lord.....:o

And I also realize why I have little , if any , belief in religion.

Do whatever you want in this realm..... As long as you believe in THIS God..... Heaven awaits your glorious soul.

Must be a good recruiting scheme though..... Seems to work for the Islamic nuts also.....:(

braces4impact

06-13-2007, 07:54 PM

Butt out. Come back when you have a Green Bull.

I have a Taurus Raging Bull..is that good enough?

bootlen

06-13-2007, 09:07 PM

I have a Taurus Raging Bull..is that good enough?

Nope. Not enough elevation. Especially for you.

chillbilly

06-13-2007, 09:09 PM

Nope. Not enough elevation. Especially for you.

Ouch.
:D

geerair

06-13-2007, 11:11 PM

I have a Taurus Raging Bull..is that good enough?No need to bother with this. It is the same goofy platitudes and superstitions belched out by the jesus crutch crowd.

Scrog and I are mopping the floor with them as usual. ;) ;)

ga-hvac-tech

06-13-2007, 11:17 PM

Scrog and I are mopping the floor with them as usual. ;) ;)

Strictly in your mind Geer... Strictly in your itty bitty mind...

Imagine, Geer with a mind... Now that is a dangerous thought... Glad it is not true... :D

braces4impact

06-15-2007, 06:25 PM

Nope. Not enough elevation. Especially for you.

Ok stand right over there while I try my new site elevation setting and let's see if it's on or not.

braces4impact

06-15-2007, 06:26 PM

No need to bother with this. It is the same goofy platitudes and superstitions belched out by the jesus crutch crowd.

Scrog and I are mopping the floor with them as usual. ;) ;)

yea...I skimmed the pages but that's about it. I'm currently involved in an debate with some freakin anarchist on another board. I can only take so much irrationality at one time.

bootlen

06-15-2007, 06:45 PM

Ok stand right over there while I try my new site elevation setting and let's see if it's on or not.

Don't bother. All you're likely to see is the edge of the soul of my shoe.

braces4impact

06-15-2007, 07:16 PM

Don't bother. All you're likely to see is the edge of the soul of my shoe.

I dunno but I don't think the shoe will offer much for protection against such a thing.

geerair

06-15-2007, 07:51 PM

I dunno but I don't think the shoe will offer much for protection against such a thing.http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/rotflol.gif

bootlen

06-15-2007, 09:41 PM

I dunno but I don't think the shoe will offer much for protection against such a thing.

Been standing here for 4 hours now. I'm still here. So's the soul of my shoe.

Anything else?

braces4impact

06-16-2007, 12:19 AM

Been standing here for 4 hours now. I'm still here. So's the soul of my shoe.

Anything else?

so easily manipulated! I mean um... yea..keep standing there..I'm on my way.

geerair

06-16-2007, 01:06 AM

so easily manipulated! I mean um... yea..keep standing there..I'm on my way.http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/rotflmao.gif

bootlen

06-16-2007, 08:16 AM

so easily manipulated! I mean um... yea..keep standing there..I'm on my way.

If you say so.

What are you doing? Crawling?

joeywrists

06-17-2007, 01:00 PM

why is it neccisary to argue about this crap?

acmanko

06-17-2007, 03:26 PM

why is it neccisary to argue about this crap?

nothing is neccesary, it's just some folks are very opinionated and feel as if they must express their opinion.

ga-hvac-tech

06-17-2007, 04:27 PM

why is it neccisary to argue about this crap?

I agree there Joey, I am trying to figure out what good it did me to use my time argueing with some bone-headed liberals that did not understand anyhow.

Then there were the ones that would throw out a simplistic question, and spin it over an over and over again... just for the sake of posting... guess that is all the life they have... :confused:

The simple solution to the problem was to put them on the ignore list and go on...

Besides; it is the busy season, and there is not enough time to deal with them... perhaps when business slacks off there will be a little time for some 'sport' in the ARP forum... :D

joeywrists

06-17-2007, 04:45 PM

i just ask cuz i dont go one way or the other on religion and i never understood why people get all up in arms about something they dont know is fact or fiction i mean it is called haveing faith.. im not sayin there is or is not a god im not him/her so i dont know if one exists or not but i dont understand why one persons belief is better than anothers because a book says so

bootlen

06-17-2007, 04:46 PM

Get a ladder.

joeywrists

06-17-2007, 05:05 PM

what kinda latter do you want

bootlen

06-17-2007, 05:38 PM

what kinda latter do you want

I don't. You need one.

This is a forum on America, religion, and politics. What'd you expect? Recipes for bunt cake?

sline-dawg

06-17-2007, 07:57 PM

Hip waders are more useful here....

An eight foot ladder won't hurt though.......;)

wannafreeze

06-25-2007, 11:01 PM

I wanna agree with your comments about atheizm.Because believing in G-d is a lot more comforting then not believing.
But if you excuse me for my ignorance about religions I need to ask this question.
How many religions there are in the world?
How many of them claim that to attain an eternal benefit or to be rescued from an eternal worry one has to believe in only that religion and reject all others.Since the Truth can only be one.Not two or more.
If I didn't know refrigeration by training and I were given 30 types of refrigerants and msds sheets and all the literature for them I would have study every one of them to determine which one is the right one for my application.That takes some time.
So if there are thousands of religions out there how many books,teachers,how much traveling,how many life times is needed to eliminate all the wrong ones and make the true one stand out?How much of it would be possible in the internet age?How much of it would be possible 500 years ago?
So do you believe in your G-d because of your upbringing or because of your comprehensive studiying of all religions?The first reason I don't respect.(If I matter).You could have been brought up as something else.And the second is not possible in one life time even with all the means available today.Do you think it is "Just"(justice/fair) for G-d to ask from me to find the Truth he will only accept for eternal heaven(pleasure?) among so many Truths in a limited life time,with such limited means?And if for some reason I ended up with the wrong Truth I deserve the eternal hell?
I don't think it's as simple as to believe in G-d or not.(Why is it spelled G-d?Is there a site rule?)

show me the money

06-26-2007, 08:37 AM

follow this link http://www.yadayahweh.com/

ozone drone

06-26-2007, 11:40 AM

No. Many of them do render God inconvenient though.

I don't see that at all. I'm sure they give it thought... but not "alot" and certainly when we look at the things that are happening in the world, it's easier to conclude that mankind gives God or other spiritual matters very little thought indeed.

Since a wrong choice could have the consequence of spending eternity in a lake of fire....one would hope that one would dismiss its existence only after having given the matter ALOT of thought. I have not encountered any parents willing to kill their children for disobeying them. Those parents who DO kill their children are usually mentally ill. Yet supposedly our loving heavenly Father can't be appeased by merely rendering us dead....No, only eternal agony and suffering will do. OK He's God . He gets to make the rules.
But let' not sugar coat it and say he' a loving and just Father when it's obvious He's a vengeful disciplinarian who has no qualms about inflicting eternal agony upon his children.

show me the money

06-26-2007, 08:14 PM

You say God is not good, because he punishes his children, in hell for eternity.
Your arguement can be used against you.
If one of your children, while in your care, told you to shove your rules.
He then went out and broke every rule and ethical code you held dear, he. no matter what you did told you to F off, and get out of his life.

What would be your reply? Would you allow him to live under your roof, would call him your child?

Now to punishment, this child, now an adult is a freon thief, liar, rapist, child molester, most of his adult life spent in crimmal persuits. Once though he helped stop a bar fight before the guy was beaten to death. He also had a dog he really loved.

Later. he is finally brought to justice, the judge sentences him to 50 years in prison. The judge asks him if he has any thing to say, he says the sentence isn't fair, because he did a few good things, he stopped a fight just the other day, he saved someones life, he loved his dog.

If the judge was a good judge he would give him a second chance. The judge replied, "because I am a good and righteous judge, I cannot let you go, justice must be served. Sir, didn't you know all these things were against the will of the people, against justice, against the law of the land, and against the moral code of God?"
Yes, judge but all of my friends did the same things as I was doing, why me?

Justice must and will be done, you know his will, so when the time comes don't say you were not warned.

Andy Schoen

06-26-2007, 08:48 PM

Andy, and all the other Christains and Atheists, do you want to rock your world?
Sigh...

follow this link http://www.yadayahweh.com/
Proof that some intellectuals have far too much time to post diatribes. :(

To keep this discussion in context, I've only advocated monotheism. I have not advocated one religion over another.

Andy Schoen

06-26-2007, 08:57 PM

(Why is it spelled G-d?Is there a site rule?)

Bill O'Reilly's effort to have his post and copies of it avoid getting clobbered by liberal-minded filters looking for any reference to religion. Not a problem on hvac-talk, though. :p

scrogdog

06-26-2007, 09:22 PM

No reply to Show Me The Money's new post, Andy? ;)

I must say... I was rendered speechless as well.

Andy Schoen

06-26-2007, 09:51 PM

No reply to Show Me The Money's new post, Andy? ;)

I must say... I was rendered speechless as well.
Perhaps we may get a clearer understanding of his thinking in a future post. At the moment, I figure his reasoning is either well beyond mine, or I'm going to have to do some serious time untangling it. ;)

wannafreeze

06-26-2007, 10:13 PM

To keep this discussion in context, I've only advocated monotheism. I have not advocated one religion over another.

Can you seperate monotheism from the existing monotheistic religions?And don't they each claim to be God's only true message.Or am I wrong?Maybe some don't claim that.I wouldn't know with my limited brain and education and language skills and other means to be able to scan every religion that is out there.
I just think one that disproves atheisim should go ahaed and prove the whole thing not part of it.
Which religion and why?
What makes one true and others false?

wannafreeze

06-26-2007, 10:25 PM

sline-dawg

06-26-2007, 10:26 PM

Faith.

Hope.

Insecurity.

Fear.

Andy Schoen

06-26-2007, 10:40 PM

Can you seperate monotheism from the existing monotheistic religions?And don't they each claim to be God's only true message.Or am I wrong?
The members of any given monotheist religion will not likely agree on this subject. The "message" tends to be a personal one.

I just think one that disproves atheisim should go ahaed and prove the whole thing not part of it.

If you disprove atheism, you simply prove theism.

What makes one true and others false?
If one theistic religion claims absolute authority, it is most definitely suspect. ;)

wannafreeze

06-26-2007, 10:51 PM

The members of any given monotheist religion will not likely agree on this subject. The "message" tends to be a personal one.

If you disprove atheism, you simply prove theism.

If one theistic religion claims absolute authority, it is most definitely suspect. ;)

Andy shouldn't you seperate theism from monotheism?When I said prove the whole thing I meant give me the rest of it,which theism,monotheism,politheism..?If monotheism,described by whom?Who's version?

Andy Schoen

06-26-2007, 11:07 PM

Andy shouldn't you seperate theism from monotheism?When I said prove the whole thing I meant give me the rest of it,which theism,monotheism,politheism..?If monotheism,described by whom?Who's version?

Again, if one disproves atheism, you simply prove theism, one or more Gods. That's all.

I've advocated monotheism (one God). You need only to search my discussions to the point of ad nausea with geerair.

I've decided long ago arguing which monotheist religion is most apropos is a bit like a dog chasing its tail. :)

wannafreeze

06-26-2007, 11:12 PM

Again, if one disproves atheism, you simply prove theism, one or more Gods. That's all.

I've advocated monotheism (one God). You need only to search my discussions to the point of ad nausea with geerair.

I've decided long ago arguing which monotheist religion is most apropos is a bit like a dog chasing its tail. :)
I knew you know refrigeration.:p

RoBoTeq

06-26-2007, 11:28 PM

No reply to Show Me The Money's new post, Andy? ;)

I must say... I was rendered speechless as well.

I'm pretty certain I understand and agree with showme's intent, although I am not so sure about the analogy used.

Throughout history we humans have been given guides by God. The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are but the latest God given rules that do seem to make the most sense for teaching us how to live and how to prepare ourselves for spiritual eternity. No; I do not consder the Q'uran or the The Book of Mormon or other such Johnny come lately publications to be the Word of God but rather the manipulations of man.

I have been able to find an answer to any question or problem in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament. I believe the answers are all there for those who are willing to allow the Holy Spirit of God guide you in the understanding of those answers. I certainly have not expected or liked some of the answers I have found, but they certainly have helped me through life. Hopefully they will also help me with eternal spiritual life as well.

The Doctor

06-27-2007, 06:52 AM

Since a wrong choice could have the consequence of spending eternity in a lake of fireit's primarily a separation from the Giver of Life, the flames are just an added bonus--a picture, if you will, of the regret for choosing death(the separation)
....one would hope that one would dismiss its existence only after having given the matter ALOT of thought. I have not encountered any parents willing to kill their children for disobeying them. Those parents who DO kill their children are usually mentally ill. Yet supposedly our loving heavenly Father can't be appeased by merely rendering us dead....No, only eternal agony and suffering will do. OK He's God . He gets to make the rules.
But let' not sugar coat it and say he' a loving and just Father when it's obvious He's a vengeful disciplinarian who has no qualms about inflicting eternal agony upon his children.
The choices we make lead directly to One or the other. It's either Our Father, or the other father, the devil(as in John 8:44). And by the way, John 5:22 clearly states that the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son.
An example of the Son of God waiting patiently is the woman caught in adultery. Now the first obvious point about that is if she was caught in the act, where is the man? So we see that Jesus was able to overcome the obviously flawed religion of the Pharisees and schribes. So where is the other person "caught in the act"? But back to the judgment aspect--in John 8 we see the account. He did not condemn her, in spite of the evidence presented by a sufficient (for OT law) number of witnesses against her.
At the end of her life, there are no more opportunities to "go and sin no more".
I think it will be at that point that judgment is final. But today is the day of salvation--there is still opportunity to turn from our ways, to the Way--the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah, you guessed it--if atheism is chic, then I'm left of cool.

ozone drone

06-27-2007, 11:19 AM

it's primarily a separation from the Giver of Life, the flames are just an added bonus--a picture, if you will, of the regret for choosing death(the separation)

So you're saying it isn't a literal "lake of fire" ?? Some say it is???? I guess I won't really know til I get there, ...if it's there.

The choices we make lead directly to One or the other. It's either Our Father, or the other father, the devil(as in John 8:44). And by the way, John 5:22 clearly states that the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son.
An example of the Son of God waiting patiently is the woman caught in adultery. Now the first obvious point about that is if she was caught in the act, where is the man? So we see that Jesus was able to overcome the obviously flawed religion of the Pharisees and schribes. So where is the other person "caught in the act"? But back to the judgment aspect--in John 8 we see the account. He did not condemn her, in spite of the evidence presented by a sufficient (for OT law) number of witnesses against her.
At the end of her life, there are no more opportunities to "go and sin no more".
I think it will be at that point that judgment is final. But today is the day of salvation--there is still opportunity to turn from our ways, to the Way--the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah, you guessed it--if atheism is chic, then I'm left of cool.

I guess the main thing that makes me question God is how despicible some people are. When you read the news and see some of the incredibly brutal things people do to other people ... you just have to wonder.

You Christians will say ... don't blame God for what people do.... we have free will etc...But why create such a flawed race to begin with??? especially since He's supposedly all knowing ... and knew before hand how pathetic it would all turn out. It just doesn't compute. I'm with Scrog on this..send me to hell, I won't worship A God like that.

bootlen

06-27-2007, 01:01 PM

You Christians will say ... don't blame God for what people do.... we have free will etc...But why create such a flawed race to begin with??? especially since He's supposedly all knowing ... and knew before hand how pathetic it would all turn out. It just doesn't compute. I'm with Scrog on this..send me to hell, I won't worship A God like that.

Never read Scripture, have you? He didn't create a flawed race.

scrogdog

06-27-2007, 05:37 PM

Oh, really?

Please tell us, then, why the un-flawed individuals known as Adam and Eve chose to sin against God?

You are going to say that it is because God wanted to give us free will. Fine. Free will, then, made them flawed. However...

If you do that, I will only have to point out that God must have screwed up somewhere, because God has free will. Correct? He is also incapable of sin. So, why did he not create us like that?

Further, if they had no knowledge of good and evil yet, how could they know that the serpent was steering them the wrong way? Besides, the mere fact that God performed this test in the first place illustrates that God cannot be perfect. Perfection would already know the result.

There are a TON of logical holes in the bible. Or... it could simply be as I've stated all along, the bible was written by flawed humans, divinely inspired or not.

scrogdog

06-27-2007, 05:53 PM

Hopefully they will also help me with eternal spiritual life as well

Good luck with that. :)

But you know what, Robo? You can have the afterlife. That's right... I want no part of it.

Why? Simple. Because I won't be me anymore.

We are told that paradise is perfect. No crime... no desire to commit them.

As you probably are aware, there has been a lot of fiction and philosophy written on the matter. From the standpoint of this simple soul, the afterlife would seem to be a place that is mind-numbingly boring.. And if it isn't, that is only because we will have been transformed in to something quite different than we were when we were alive.

Man was not meant for paradise, Robo. If you take away the mysteries and wonder of life... what is the use of existence?

Did you ever see the Star Trek movie where they search for God? Spock's brother turns out to be some sort of mystic/shaman who, if you will go through a ritual with him, can take away one's pain.

Kirk's reply to him? "I need my pain".

We all need our pain. That's what makes you a better person. The realization that you have hurt someone... caused them pain. Human empathy is a very powerful thing.

We all have our dark side. A yin to meet the yang. The internal struggle. It is what defines us... it is what makes us actually perceived as being good or evil. Mother Theresa had the same issues... the same battles... and look at her life. That is WHY she was great.

Think of it, Robo, you would know all the answers. You would have no feeling except good ones. Everything is just "perfect".

This sounds to me not like paradise, but more like a sort of medicated myopia. I do not say that to offend, I only say it because, to me, such a place goes against our natures as men. I want no part of it. If my existence is to continue after death, I still want to be me. That just does not seem possible, so I'll take the dirt nap over afterlife any day of the week.

bootlen

06-27-2007, 07:38 PM

Oh, really?

Mmm-hmm. Really.

Please tell us, then, why the un-flawed individuals known as Adam and Eve chose to sin against God?

You are going to say that it is because God wanted to give us free will. Fine. Free will, then, made them flawed. However...

If you do that, I will only have to point out that God must have screwed up somewhere, because God has free will. Correct? He is also incapable of sin. So, why did he not create us like that?

Actually, we have more free will than God. You and I can lie, for example. God cannot.

God wants an intimate RELATIONSHIP with us. If we loved Him "robotically", that would not be a relationship.

Further, if they had no knowledge of good and evil yet, how could they know that the serpent was steering them the wrong way?

God had already told them. And in no uncertain terms.

Besides, the mere fact that God performed this test in the first place illustrates that God cannot be perfect. Perfection would already know the result.

The "test" was not for God's sake. It was for mankind's. "Shall I love God and express that love through obedience or shall I love self and express that love through selfishness?"

There are a TON of logical holes in the bible. Or... it could simply be as I've stated all along, the bible was written by flawed humans, divinely inspired or not.

braces4impact

06-27-2007, 07:39 PM

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 07:44 PM

Never read Scripture, have you? He didn't create a flawed race.

Where does scripture cite that?

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 07:48 PM

Good luck with that. :)

But you know what, Robo? You can have the afterlife. That's right... I want no part of it.

Why? Simple. Because I won't be me anymore.

We are told that paradise is perfect. No crime... no desire to commit them.

As you probably are aware, there has been a lot of fiction and philosophy written on the matter. From the standpoint of this simple soul, the afterlife would seem to be a place that is mind-numbingly boring.. And if it isn't, that is only because we will have been transformed in to something quite different than we were when we were alive.

Man was not meant for paradise, Robo. If you take away the mysteries and wonder of life... what is the use of existence?

Did you ever see the Star Trek movie where they search for God? Spock's brother turns out to be some sort of mystic/shaman who, if you will go through a ritual with him, can take away one's pain.

Kirk's reply to him? "I need my pain".

We all need our pain. That's what makes you a better person. The realization that you have hurt someone... caused them pain. Human empathy is a very powerful thing.

We all have our dark side. A yin to meet the yang. The internal struggle. It is what defines us... it is what makes us actually perceived as being good or evil. Mother Theresa had the same issues... the same battles... and look at her life. That is WHY she was great.

Think of it, Robo, you would know all the answers. You would have no feeling except good ones. Everything is just "perfect".

This sounds to me not like paradise, but more like a sort of medicated myopia. I do not say that to offend, I only say it because, to me, such a place goes against our natures as men. I want no part of it. If my existence is to continue after death, I still want to be me. That just does not seem possible, so I'll take the dirt nap over afterlife any day of the week.

I get the impression that our spiritual existance is in no way comparable to our physical existance. I don't think we can at all evern comprehend what our spiritual existance is like because we rely solely on physical attributes in order to deal in this physical world.

Paradise is just a word to give us a general idea of what our spiritual life will be like.

If I am wrong, what harm has been done. If you are wrong????????

bootlen

06-27-2007, 07:51 PM

Where does scripture cite that?

Summed up in Gen. 1:31.

Hey! I thought you studied Scripture!:cool:

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 07:55 PM

Oh, really?

Mmm-hmm. Really.

Please tell us, then, why the un-flawed individuals known as Adam and Eve chose to sin against God?

You are going to say that it is because God wanted to give us free will. Fine. Free will, then, made them flawed. However...

If you do that, I will only have to point out that God must have screwed up somewhere, because God has free will. Correct? He is also incapable of sin. So, why did he not create us like that?

Actually, we have more free will than God. You and I can lie, for example. God cannot.

Where does scripture depict a limitation on what God can do? If we are indeed made in the image of God, then why would we have more benefits?

God wants an intimate RELATIONSHIP with us. If we loved Him "robotically", that would not be a relationship. Agreed

Further, if they had no knowledge of good and evil yet, how could they know that the serpent was steering them the wrong way?

God had already told them. And in no uncertain terms. So, do you think that Adam and Eve thought that God was lying, as the serpent told them?
Besides, the mere fact that God performed this test in the first place illustrates that God cannot be perfect. Perfection would already know the result.

The "test" was not for God's sake. It was for mankind's. "Shall I love God and express that love through obedience or shall I love self and express that love through selfishness?" If man is made in the image of God, and God is perfect, would that make man perfect or God imperfect?
There are a TON of logical holes in the bible. Or... it could simply be as I've stated all along, the bible was written by flawed humans, divinely inspired or not.

I disagree with there being a ton of holes in the Bible, logical or otherwise. It is much more likely that man is just not understanding the Bible properly.

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:04 PM

Summed up in Gen. 1:31.

Hey! I thought you studied Scripture!:cool:

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning_the sixth day.

Out of this, you get that humans are not flawed?

This is exactly why so many people turn from the Bible. Too many wild claims being made. Instead of allowing Biblical passages stand for the individual, too many individuals use Biblical passages to bolster their own individual agendas.

Why then are there so many Bible passages characterizing man as being a fool?

bootlen

06-27-2007, 08:06 PM

Robo,

"...God cannot lie" Titus 1:2.

Eve was deceived. Adam stood by and SELFISHLY let it happen.

You must not discount free will.

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:07 PM

Hey! I thought you studied Scripture!:cool:

And trying to talk down to me with this kind of insinuation really makes you sound pathetically arrogant.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if you were my only source of information about God, I'd hate God.

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:11 PM

Robo,

"...God cannot lie" Titus 1:2.

Eve was deceived. Adam stood by and SELFISHLY let it happen.

You must not discount free will.

The epistle from Paul to Titus has Paul stating that "God does not lie." not that God cannot lie. There is a major difference here. God, like humans made in His image, has the choice to do what He pleases.

bootlen

06-27-2007, 08:13 PM

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning_the sixth day.

Out of this, you get that humans are not flawed?

This is exactly why so many people turn from the Bible. Too many wild claims being made. Instead of allowing Biblical passages stand for the individual, too many individuals use Biblical passages to bolster their own individual agendas.

Why then are there so many Bible passages characterizing man as being a fool?

How would YOU interpret "very good"? Do you think God would call flawed creation "very good"?

bootlen

06-27-2007, 08:15 PM

The epistle from Paul to Titus has Paul stating that "God does not lie." not that God cannot lie. There is a major difference here. God, like humans made in His image, has the choice to do what He pleases.

Okay. O.G. is "the unlying God". I'll give you that one.

Do you believe that God can sin and still be God?

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:18 PM

How would YOU interpret "very good"? Do you think God would call flawed creation "very good"?

Again with the fundy "put God in a box" stand. I had sex with a barely legal little girl down the street from me and It was very good. Does that mean it was not flawed:p

bootlen

06-27-2007, 08:19 PM

Again with the fundy "put God in a box" stand. I had sex with a barely legal little girl down the street from me and It was very good. Does that mean it was not flawed:p

Not by YOUR standards, I'm sure. But it was God who said His creation was "very good"...not the Goo'man man.

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:22 PM

Okay. O.G. is "the unlying God". I'll give you that one.

Do you believe that God can sin and still be God?

I figure that sin is a mortal act and that there is no concept of sin spiritually, so God in Jesus could have sinned.

Next question; do I believe that God is fallable? Yes I do. We are made in God's image and I believe that if we are designed to be fallable then God is as well. I also believe that much of the Hebrew Testament depicts God growing with His creation. I see God learning and changing throughout the Hebrew Testament. God is our spiritual Father and He has had to learn how to be a father just as we mortals need to learn how to be fathers to our sons and daughters.

bootlen

06-27-2007, 08:25 PM

I figure that sin is a mortal act and that there is no concept of sin spiritually, so God in Jesus could have sinned.

Next question; do I believe that God is fallable? Yes I do. We are made in God's image and I believe that if we are designed to be fallable then God is as well. I also believe that much of the Hebrew Testament depicts God growing with His creation. I see God learning and changing throughout the Hebrew Testament. God is our spiritual Father and He has had to learn how to be a father just as we mortals need to learn how to be fathers to our sons and daughters.

Sin is a flesh and blood issue. And we are made in His spiritual image since He is spirit and not flesh and blood.

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:25 PM

Not by YOUR standards, I'm sure. But it was God who said His creation was "very good"...not the Goo'man man.

You just weasled out of your own specified definition. God gave you the ability to open your mind and heart and to trust in Him for guidance. Are you possibly trusting more in the intellect that was giving to mankind prematurely by Satan?

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 08:26 PM

Sin is a flesh and blood issue. And we are made in His spiritual image since He is spirit and not flesh and blood.

You just agreed with me:cool:

bootlen

06-27-2007, 08:28 PM

You just weasled out of your own specified definition. God gave you the ability to open your mind and heart and to trust in Him for guidance. Are you possibly trusting more in the intellect that was giving to mankind prematurely by Satan?

I didn't weasle out of anything. YOU are trying to compare the sex act with the creation and make YOUR standards of "very good" on the level with God's. If there's a weasle in this thread, he's on your end of the net.

RoBoTeq

06-27-2007, 11:38 PM

I didn't weasle out of anything. YOU are trying to compare the sex act with the creation and make YOUR standards of "very good" on the level with God's. If there's a weasle in this thread, he's on your end of the net.

Ya know that God loves me....right? I mean, you do understand that; don't you?:cool:

God loves you to, and I'm trying:o

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 12:29 AM

That reminds me of this video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G-dN6wYF3Q

That was f-ing hilarious!

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 12:40 AM

If I am wrong, what harm has been done. If you are wrong????

If I am wrong, then I will obviously burn in hell for a single mistake at the hands of my "loving parent". The mistake of beleiving that Jesus was not supernatural or devine. OMG... I can't believe the nature of this crime against man and God! :rolleyes:

On the other hand, Charles Manson, if he "truly repents in the eyes of God" on the last day of his life... will ascend.

Tell me, please. What about this "God" is there to respect? The concept of such a thing is just so far out there that, you know what? I WILL burn in hell... and gladly so... before I accept sh*t like that.

Sorry. I can't even beleive that rational beings would accept that. I should go to bed now before I say something... er... untoward. ;)

geerair

06-28-2007, 12:48 AM

If I am wrong, then I will obviously burn in hell for a single mistake at the hands of my "loving parent". Well, Robo could wind up burning in hell with us if he is wrong and has been worshipping the wrong god all this time. :p :p

bootlen

06-28-2007, 06:53 AM

Ya know that God loves me....right? I mean, you do understand that; don't you?:cool:

God loves you to, and I'm trying:o

No question about it, Robo.:)

bootlen

06-28-2007, 07:11 AM

If I am wrong, then I will obviously burn in hell for a single mistake at the hands of my "loving parent". The mistake of beleiving that Jesus was not supernatural or devine. OMG... I can't believe the nature of this crime against man and God!

I happen to disagree with the fact they have put traffic lights in certain locations here. I think they are not properly placed. Now, I have 2 choices: 1)ignore them; or 2)obey them. Should I choose to ignore them, I am breaking a law and am likely to appear before a judge who represents that law. He has a couple of choices as well. He can throw the book at me and is likely to do so if I am unrepentent. Or he can go easy on my if I confess my rebellion and ask forgiveness by throwing myself on the mercy of the court. In either case, the law is followed as it makes for allowances under certain conditions.

The law of sin and death is similar to that. "The wages of sin is death." That will never change. My attitude about Christ determines whose death is addressed in the above quote. "The wages of (my) sin is (my) death or "the wages of (my) sin is (Christ's) death".

Somebody has to pay for my sin. Well, Christ paid the price to cover everybody's sin. We just have to confess our wrongdoing and let Him be the one who paid it.

On the other hand, Charles Manson, if he "truly repents in the eyes of God" on the last day of his life... will ascend.

Yeah. Freaky, huh? I personally could never forgive something like that. But, then again, I am not a forgiving, loving God.

Tell me, please. What about this "God" is there to respect? The concept of such a thing is just so far out there that, you know what? I WILL burn in hell... and gladly so... before I accept sh*t like that.

That is entirely YOUR choice. But someone like Manson, while he may be plucked by the skin of his death from eternal damnation and have eternal life, would likely end up with very little reward in Heaven.

Salvation is a one time issue that lasts for eternity. Good deeds done in the power of Christ and for His glory are an ongoing accumulation of rewards/riches that are stored in eternity.

The Doctor

06-28-2007, 07:18 AM

I guess the main thing that makes me question God is how despicible some people are. I'm with ya on the part about the people, yet it does not change ( or cause me to doubt)the nature of the God who would choose to buy back a people for His own reasons.
When you read the news and see some of the incredibly brutal things people do to other people ... you just have to wonder.
A big ole' YEP!

You Christians will say ... don't blame God for what people do.... we have free will etc...But why create such a flawed race to begin with??? especially since He's supposedly all knowing ... and knew before hand how pathetic it would all turn out. not with a bang, but a whimper. Who was it wrote that, wasn't that Eliot?
It just doesn't compute. I'm with Scrog on this..send me to hell, I won't worship A God like that.
Look at the other side of that coin. Who'd want to have my miserable self worshipping Him? What kind of tribute is that? And yet God makes a way for just that. A hope that there will be fellowship (not heaven as a place to play golf, but I'd like to think....) that there will be fellowship with our maker. Why do we do the things we do? (shrug shoulders). Why don't we do more of what we ought to do?
I think the "chic" way is the easy way out. No more responsibility to a fixed standard.
Which is why I ask God for His help each day. I already prove on a regular basis that I can't live up to those standards without His help. The idea that God would buy back some is a hope that works for me.
Sorry for the rant.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 08:20 AM

If I am wrong, then I will obviously burn in hell for a single mistake at the hands of my "loving parent". The mistake of beleiving that Jesus was not supernatural or devine. OMG... I can't believe the nature of this crime against man and God! :rolleyes:

On the other hand, Charles Manson, if he "truly repents in the eyes of God" on the last day of his life... will ascend.

Tell me, please. What about this "God" is there to respect? The concept of such a thing is just so far out there that, you know what? I WILL burn in hell... and gladly so... before I accept sh*t like that.

Sorry. I can't even beleive that rational beings would accept that. I should go to bed now before I say something... er... untoward. ;)

Well, you have taken the stances of both extremes of the fundies. I myslef don't presume to know God that well that I can dictate what God will or won't do with our immortal souls.

I'm not even certain I believe in the fiery and eternal hell as it is oft times described. I am leaning more towards our spiritual eternity being with God or being without God. That way it is more like having a loving parental relationship or not having that relationship.

I am currently quite sad because I no longer have my dad to call up or go see. I certainly don't want to feel this way for eternity.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 08:21 AM

Well, Robo could wind up burning in hell with us if he is wrong and has been worshipping the wrong god all this time. :p :p

I believe this to be absolutely true and constantly pray that I am on the right path.

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 08:31 AM

The big difference, Boot, is that we make our OWN laws as human beings. And they are constantly modified BY human beings. What recourse do we have if God is unfair, eh?

We sit here in discussion and see that our fellow humans suffer pain for the sins of our fathers. Most of us don't think it is ok to blame a modern German citizen for Hitler. Or to blame whites for all eternity for enslaving blacks.

And yet, for some of us, though we agree that this is something that we shouldn't do to other men, it is perfectly ok for God to do it to us!

You know what Boot? History is rife with human beings standing up to unfair and oppressive entities regardless of the consequnce. It is what we do. Now I don't give a flying F if in this case the oppressor is some full-of-himself being that REQUIRES other beings to worship him, calls HIMSELF glorious, and condems an entire race of beings that he created (and is thus responsible for the actions of) for the actions of two people long ago! I will not lay down my principles before ANY being. Not you. Not the President. Not "God". Regardless of consequence.

acmanko

06-28-2007, 08:37 AM

I can guarantee all of you, with God as my overseer, you are all WRONG

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 08:45 AM

Well, you have taken the stances of both extremes of the fundies. I myslef don't presume to know God that well that I can dictate what God will or won't do with our immortal souls.

I'm not even certain I believe in the fiery and eternal hell as it is oft times described. I am leaning more towards our spiritual eternity being with God or being without God. That way it is more like having a loving parental relationship or not having that relationship.

I am currently quite sad because I no longer have my dad to call up or go see. I certainly don't want to feel this way for eternity.

Fair enough, Robo. If I were ever to find God in some way, I assure you that my vision of him would be quite out of the mainstream. I would be a Jeffersonian believer, i.e. "my mind is my church".

Isn't there a third alternative for unbelievers, though? Doesn't scripture mention "the annihilation of souls" somewhere? I would highly recommend that God take this path with me. Sounds like a good way to handle "dissidents". :)

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 09:02 AM

Who'd want to have my miserable self worshipping Him?

I think the better question is, what "perfect" being would require other beings to worship him?

To me, arrogance is a human failing, not a property of a perfect being. But... that's just me.

I think what sticks in the craw of many beleivers is that a "fair" God would not condemn a soul to hell for all eternity for simply not believing. Which, in turn, means that someone like me can "get away with" (so to speak), not believing. We didn't work for salvation... you did. It is the "other side" of the sense of fair play issue.

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 09:16 AM

I can guarantee all of you, with God as my overseer, you are all WRONG

Fine. I'm ok with that.

Being a man of science does not necessarily mean that I TRULY wish to know all the answers, however those answers may be provided. Interestingly, I don't think I really want to know *some* things.

Think of this, AC... all of eternity explored. All of our questions answered.

Man is meant to be challenged. To struggle. To perservere. To emerge hopefully victorious regardless of the challenge. But if we know and have seen everything... what's left? What would we do?

I like being human. With all our flaws... with all of our quirks. Oh what a being is man! The worst and most wonderful entity ever conceived by science or God. It is our triumph over the challenges of life that make us great. It is the failure to do so that makes us... un-great. :)

My existence is about the study of the facinating thing we call the human condition. Take that away, give me the answers of the universe, and you have just taken away the wonder, challenge and meaning of life. To me, that is exactly why the idea of an afterlife is a FAR thing from paradise.

acmanko

06-28-2007, 09:22 AM

Fine. I'm ok with that.

Being a man of science does not necessarily mean that I TRULY wish to know all the answers, however those answers may be provided. Interestingly, I don't think I really want to know *some* things.

Think of this, AC... all of eternity explored. All of our questions answered.

Man is meant to be challenged. To struggle. To perservere. To emerge hopefully victorious regardless of the challenge. But if we know and have seen everything... what's left? What would we do?

I like being human. With all our flaws... with all of our quirks. Oh what a being is man! The worst and most wonderful entity ever conceived by science or God. It is our triumph over the challenges of life that make us great. It is the failure to do so that makes us... un-great. :)

My existence is about the study of the facinating thing we call the human condition. Take that away, give me the answers of the universe, and you have just taken away the wonder, challenge and meaning of life. To me, that is exactly why the idea of an afterlife is a FAR thing from paradise. You and I think similar, I was refering to all those who live by their bible the way they interpret it. after all in revelations ,Jesue will ascend from hell with 1 of 999 souls. that leaves a lot of rightgeous torment

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 09:23 AM

I think the better question is, what "perfect" being would require other beings to worship him?

To me, arrogance is a human failing, not a property of a perfect being. But... that's just me.

I think what sticks in the craw of many beleivers is that a "fair" God would not condemn a soul to hell for all eternity for simply not believing. Which, in turn, means that someone like me can "get away with" (so to speak), not believing. We didn't work for salvation... you did. It is the "other side" of the sense of fair play issue.

I think that churchianity has distorted our understanding of what worship, obedience and praise is to better allow those who profess to be of God to better control those who flock to them for spiritual guidance.

The way I see it; God created all of the physical world. Humans are at least one aspect of this physical world that God has injected spiritual life into, for whatever reason. It appears to be that God is seeking a loving relationship without creating that loving relationship. God seems to have developed a way to create a situation where love for God is a choice, making that love much more meaningful.

The laws of God seem to be set more as guidelines as how to live within the parameters of the physics of the physical world that God has created. I don't think it is a matter so much that God punishes us for disobeying God's laws for the physical world, but rather that when we go against God's laws we simply reap the consequences of the way the physical world has been designed to operate. Going against nature, is going against the design of God.

For example; If you mismatch a heat pump to an indoor coil that is not compatible, you just might get away with it operating without apparent problems for awhile. Then, all of a sudden you find out that because the components were not matched properly, the compressor fails. This is simply a matter of putting two things together that by the physics, laws if you will, of heat pumps that seemed to be ok but turned out to prove that it was not ok.

A human example would be when two men decide to lie with one another as a man would lie with a woman. It may seem to not be a problem for a while, but then all of a sudden we realize that there really are problems with this. It is simply a matter of going against the biology, laws of nature if you will, of human function.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 09:25 AM

I can guarantee all of you, with God as my overseer, you are all WRONG

You can't guarantee that you are going to make it through the night. None of us are in control of our destiny without guidance.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 09:27 AM

You and I think similar, I was refering to all those who live by their bible the way they interpret it. after all in revelations ,Jesue will ascend from hell with 1 of 999 souls. that leaves a lot of rightgeous torment

If anything should drive an atheist to God, it is being like assymancow.

ozone drone

06-28-2007, 09:30 AM

not with a bang, but a whimper. Who was it wrote that, wasn't that Eliot?

Doc,
You said this in reply to my question of why God would create such a flawed race. I'm not sharp enough to keep up with you....could you elaborate and draw me a verbal picture? Don't apologize for your rants ..you're suffering mine:D

lhatton

06-28-2007, 09:54 AM

If I may pipe in on this discussion, the bottom line is it really comes down to faith, trust and choice. There are alot of things on this earth that you can invest your faith and trust into and then you choose what you want to believe. The question I would like to ask non believers is "what if your wrong?" I have an unquestionable faith that God is real and he loves us. I have a never ending trust that God will do exactly what he promises to do in the Bible and I choose to believe what scripture teaches, I choose to believe that if I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior I will have everlasting life just as scripture teaches. So my point is this, what if I'm wrong? No big deal, no harm done, at best I live a peaceful meaningful life and then I die. What if your wrong though. Where will you spend eternity. You make alot of choices in this life assuming there is no God, maybe if there truely is a God, you will have to be accountable for your choices so you choose not to believe, you do away with this whole God thing so there will be no accountability at the end of your life. I will finish with this, just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true. Al the answers to all your questions are in the Bible, you just have to make a choice.

acmanko

06-28-2007, 10:16 AM

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 10:27 AM

I think that churchianity has distorted our understanding of what worship, obedience and praise is to better allow those who profess to be of God to better control those who flock to them for spiritual guidance.

While I do not call myself an atheist, I think for practicality’s sake that I should be called one with regards to Earthly religion. No offense, but I see them ALL as bunk and rather easy to see through.

So, to take your paragraph one step further, IF there is no God, or if there is one but we are not even close to describing him, then we come upon the inescapable conclusion that God (the one seen by Earthly religion that is) was constructed by man. The group of men that decided to promote this may have even been well intentioned. If you look at how things were during the life of Jesus, I think we can all see some person or people thinking… “we need to turn this around. The Old Testament is not enough… we need a prophet.” So they made one. And Jesus more or less “ate it up”. Who among you would not, at a young age, become full of yourself after being told that you are THE Prophet of God?

Seems a bit easy to see from where I sit.

The way I see it; God created all of the physical world. Humans are at least one aspect of this physical world that God has injected spiritual life into, for whatever reason. It appears to be that God is seeking a loving relationship without creating that loving relationship. God seems to have developed a way to create a situation where love for God is a choice, making that love much more meaningful.

That may be true, but I still don't see how God has done much for us. It would be just as easy for a perfect being to create the conditions under which Original Virtue is the basis for belief instead of Original Sin. But he didn't do that, did he?

If you were the creator, Robo, how would you promote a loving relationship between yourself and your creation?

The only God I would respect would be one that does not niggle details and takes intent in to account. My life’s philosophy is/was summed up rather well by the Beatles.

And in the end, the love you take; is equal to the love you make.

So, if I follow this philosophy as closely as I can, then I follow the philosophy of Christ. Even if it is by accident, without guidance, and I don’t believe. NO loving parent will punish his child for that. At least, not in my world. :)

And if he IS like that, Ihatton, then I am fully prepared to tell God directly to his face exactly what I think of him and his laws, and then accept the consequences. What do you think of that, my friend?

lhatton

06-28-2007, 11:03 AM

And if he IS like that, Ihatton, then I am fully prepared to tell God directly to his face exactly what I think of him and his laws, and then accept the consequences. What do you think of that, my friend?

It is your choice to make friend:cool:

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 12:32 PM

One out of 999 leaves moses , the popes and a few other biblical characters along with Billy Graham, Tilton , Bakker and Tammy Faye, Benny Hin and Jerry Lee Lewis and his preacher cousin, Jimmy Swaggert.

You really do start drinking early, don't you?

When you sober up, please try to decifer this into coherent English.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 12:41 PM

While I do not call myself an atheist, I think for practicality’s sake that I should be called one with regards to Earthly religion. No offense, but I see them ALL as bunk and rather easy to see through.

So, to take your paragraph one step further, IF there is no God, or if there is one but we are not even close to describing him, then we come upon the inescapable conclusion that God (the one seen by Earthly religion that is) was constructed by man. The group of men that decided to promote this may have even been well intentioned. If you look at how things were during the life of Jesus, I think we can all see some person or people thinking… “we need to turn this around. The Old Testament is not enough… we need a prophet.” So they made one. And Jesus more or less “ate it up”. Who among you would not, at a young age, become full of yourself after being told that you are THE Prophet of God?

Seems a bit easy to see from where I sit.

That may be true, but I still don't see how God has done much for us. It would be just as easy for a perfect being to create the conditions under which Original Virtue is the basis for belief instead of Original Sin. But he didn't do that, did he?

If you were the creator, Robo, how would you promote a loving relationship between yourself and your creation?

The only God I would respect would be one that does not niggle details and takes intent in to account. My life’s philosophy is/was summed up rather well by the Beatles.

And in the end, the love you take; is equal to the love you make.

So, if I follow this philosophy as closely as I can, then I follow the philosophy of Christ. Even if it is by accident, without guidance, and I don’t believe. NO loving parent will punish his child for that. At least, not in my world. :)

And if he IS like that, Ihatton, then I am fully prepared to tell God directly to his face exactly what I think of him and his laws, and then accept the consequences. What do you think of that, my friend?

I don't know what else to say scrog. You seem to be content with how you feel and you seem to be fine with your justifications for believing that people of faith are just being duped. I disagree.

Your evidence is imperical and scientific. I believe that science simply explains a Creator's creation. Tit.....tat. My evidence is purely from a media that we cannot, at least at this time in our developement, measure. There are many latent realities that we have discovered how to calculate, maybe we will someday be able to calculate our spiritual nature. Until then, we must rely on faith.

No one can tell me that my faith arose from being taught that this is the way it is. I fought hard to disprove all that I was taught because it did not ring true with my mortal intellect. I firmly believe that I have a stong sense of spiritual being that is as real to me as any emotion or even any physically calculable entity. Do I hear voices? Maybe; I don't think I'm ready commit to admitting that yet;)

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 12:54 PM

I don't know what else to say scrog. You seem to be content with how you feel and you seem to be fine with your justifications for believing that people of faith are just being duped. I disagree.

No, that's not quite it. I don't think believers are being duped by God, only by other men. :) Personally, I believe that if God does exist, that he is NOTHING like what any Earthly religion imagines him to be. I would not be surprised to learn that God was having quite a hearty chuckle over our vision of him, and how we use him.

Your evidence is imperical and scientific. I believe that science simply explains a Creator's creation. Tit.....tat. My evidence is purely from a media that we cannot, at least at this time in our developement, measure. There are many latent realities that we have discovered how to calculate, maybe we will someday be able to calculate our spiritual nature. Until then, we must rely on faith.

But I haven't really been using "evidence" in our discussion. Most times I do, but in this particular discusssion that we have been having for the past couple of pages, I have been using philosophy. I have tried to show that God's philosophy can appear... non-sensical... (portions of it at least) to me anyway... when viewed from a position of logic.

No one can tell me that my faith arose from being taught that this is the way it is. I fought hard to disprove all that I was taught because it did not ring true with my mortal intellect. I firmly believe that I have a stong sense of spiritual being that is as real to me as any emotion or even any physically calculable entity. Do I hear voices? Maybe; I don't think I'm ready commit to admitting that yet;)

I think in your case that is probably true. You were not indictrinated. As I remember it, you were initially a non-believer or a doubter at least. But I certainly think it is true that many do not "choose" thier faith, they were indoctrinated, much as I was indoctrinated in to the path of science by my dad.

"The snakes and arrows a child is heir to are enough to leave a thousand cuts."

-Neil Peart.

ozone drone

06-28-2007, 01:12 PM

"The snakes and arrows a child is heir to are enough to leave a thousand cuts."

-Neil Peart.

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice".......

Was ol' Rush talking about agnostics?:D

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 01:41 PM

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice".......

Was ol' Rush talking about agnostics?:D

Peart has remained fairly consistent on this isssue through time, yes.

If his writings are any indication, he and I think a lot alike.

I can't play drums for crap though... lol.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 02:10 PM

No, that's not quite it. I don't think believers are being duped by God, only by other men. :) Personally, I believe that if God does exist, that he is NOTHING like what any Earthly religion imagines him to be. I would not be surprised to learn that God was having quite a hearty chuckle over our vision of him, and how we use him.

I absolutely agree that religious leaders dupe the faithful. This is why I have tried out several different denominations. In all of the churches I have attended, I have found good people. I have even found some pastorial people who I believe are God fearing (think "respecting), but may be guided too much by doctrine of the organization they were trained by.

I also believe that God must often laugh at us, shake His etheral equivelent of a head at our doings and get downright depressed over our actions. The only religious icon in my home is a charcoal portrait of a very Jewish looking Jesus in a full belly laugh. That picture keeps me humble in many ways.

All visions of God aside, I also don't believe that man can comprehend what God is because we are wearing the blinders of the physical world that keeps us from understanding our spiritual nature.

But I haven't really been using "evidence" in our discussion. Most times I do, but in this particular discusssion that we have been having for the past couple of pages, I have been using philosophy. I have tried to show that God's philosophy can appear... non-sensical... (portions of it at least) to me anyway... when viewed from a position of logic.

Non-sensical? Of course it appears non-sensical to us. How can we, mere creations, possibly comprehend our Creator?

My favorite Bible book is often said to be non-sensical; "Meaningless, meaningless! Says the teacher. Utterly meaningless. Everything is meaningless.

Wisdom is meaningless...Pleasures are meaningless...Wisdom and Folly are meaningless...Toil is meaningless...But there is a time for everything."

It is that "time for everything" concept that I try to understand Biblical passages within. A passage may not mean the same at one time of our lives as it may at another. What we take from a passage that seems to change can certainly be right for both times. That is the beauty of the Bible; it is fluid. It works with us at whatever time or place we may find ourselves.

I think in your case that is probably true. You were not indictrinated. As I remember it, you were initially a non-believer or a doubter at least. But I certainly think it is true that many do not "choose" thier faith, they were indoctrinated, much as I was indoctrinated in to the path of science by my dad.

I actually was indoctrinated into Christianity and I found it to be perverse. I fought hard against what I was indoctrinated into. After years of fighting what I believed to be the good fight, I realized that it was religion I detested, not faith or God. My revelation of God for me is every bit as powerful as the revelation of Jesus was to Saul.

The bottom line is that if I can come to God, anyone can.

"The snakes and arrows a child is heir to are enough to leave a thousand cuts."

-Neil Peart.

While true, snakes can be made into pets and arrows used for good. Even a thousand cuts will heal, thanks to our Creator.

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 02:56 PM

All visions of God aside, I also don't believe that man can comprehend what God is because we are wearing the blinders of the physical world that keeps us from understanding our spiritual nature.

I agree, but I’m none too sure that I have a spiritual nature. I certainly do not feel it, or I’ve failed to recognize what others feel. Some would say that I have missed what God is trying to tell me. Ok, let’s say that is true. God is well aware what it would take for me to believe, perhaps a stronger whatever it was that I have missed. There is no one thing that will work for everyone I would think. That we are vastly different thinkers is demonstrated on these very forums on a daily basis. So, to me, God should have no problem in doing whatever it takes. As adults and parents we know that some of our children respond differently to different things. I don’t learn well in guided classrooms, for example. But on my own or with a dedicated tutor I perform much better. Obviously not everyone is like that, so as adults, parents and teachers, our mission is to find what works with a given child and then go with it. We also realize that what has been demonstrated to work with one child is completely the wrong approach with another. That’s one issue that I have with ALL religion. There is no single way for all to think, and yet that is exactly what is prescribed. God is well aware of this fact, wouldn’t you say? :)

Non-sensical? Of course it appears non-sensical to us. How can we, mere creations, possibly comprehend our Creator?

Well, I would submit to you then that any being who wishes to mold his creations along a given path needs to make that path clear. Universal truth must be easy to see… even if it has to be “dumbed down”. Again, this goes back to the different ways humans are wired. You can accept things that seem non-sensical because you have faith. Conversely, I am prevented from having faith *because* the issues seem non-sensical.

It is interesting the different ways that humans think about things.

What is the purpose of “coming to God”? Is it so that we will love our brothers? I already do that. I accept most of the philosophy of Jesus. I just don’t think he was divine. But, even if he was, so what? If the result is the same whether I believe or not, then what’s the issue here?

Seems to me that if the end result is the same, the methodology and approach of attaining that goal becomes meaningless. Do you have any sales training, Robo? Profiling customers is a valuable technique if you wish to know how to sell to a given customer. My sales profile is “pragmatic/analytical”. Just give me the bottom line… that’s all that matters. If your first foot in my door is a flowery presentation, then you have not done your homework. :)

Not that I expect God is pragmatic, only that he should understand his creations well enough to know what being pragmatic is like.

bootlen

06-28-2007, 03:09 PM

The big difference, Boot, is that we make our OWN laws as human beings. And they are constantly modified BY human beings. What recourse do we have if God is unfair, eh?

IF God is unfair? He is most definitely unfair! Thank God Almighty that He is unfair. If He were fair, His Son would not have come and died in our place. If God were fair, we would ALL spend eternity in hell.

Unfair? Yes. And infinitely merciful offering eternal life to those who will receive it.

We sit here in discussion and see that our fellow humans suffer pain for the sins of our fathers. Most of us don't think it is ok to blame a modern German citizen for Hitler. Or to blame whites for all eternity for enslaving blacks.

And yet, for some of us, though we agree that this is something that we shouldn't do to other men, it is perfectly ok for God to do it to us!

God does not "do it" to us. We "do it" to ourselves by making piss-poor decisions.

You know what Boot? History is rife with human beings standing up to
unfair and oppressive entities regardless of the consequnce. It is what we do. Now I don't give a flying F if in this case the oppressor is some full-of-himself being that REQUIRES other beings to worship him, calls HIMSELF glorious, and condems an entire race of beings that he created (and is thus responsible for the actions of) for the actions of two people long ago!

He hasn't condemned an entire race. Each person condemns himself. God offers mercy in the place of condemnation.

I will not lay down my principles before ANY being. Not you. Not the President. Not "God". Regardless of consequence.

That is entirely YOUR choice, scrog. YOU choose. Nobody chooses for you. Only you.

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 03:15 PM

Yes, he has condemned an entire race. The moment that he decided to make humans no longer perfect as a response to the mistake of two people I never even knew!

Whatever, Boot. Eternal life in "paradise" is not for me anyway. I do not seek it. In fact, hell might even be better than heaven. At least I'd FEEL something instead of having an eternal myopic smile on my face.

Of course it is my choice. And I am proud to stand up for my principles no matter what the consequences. Thank... ahem... God, that such individuals exist to oppose tyranny or this world would be a very different place than it is now.

bootlen

06-28-2007, 03:36 PM

Yes, he has condemned an entire race. The moment that he decided to make humans no longer perfect as a response to the mistake of two people I never even knew!

Your vehicle will travel over the speed limit. Your choice is to drive no faster than the limit or over the limit. Same with sin. The judge does not make you speed. The law exists. It is in place. It expects to be obeyed OR punishment rendered. Should the officer who stops you or the judge who listens to your case or the manufacturer of your vehicle be blamed for your indiscretion?

I think not. No one to blame but the speeder.

You realize your stance on this issue qualifies you as a lib, don't you? "Don't balme me for speeding if my vehicle can exceed the limit."

Whatever, Boot. Eternal life in "paradise" is not for me anyway. I do not seek it. In fact, hell might even be better than heaven. At least I'd FEEL something instead of having an eternal myopic smile on my face.

Easy to say now. Mucho bravado. But don't look at Robo, others, and me when the time comes and say, "Hey! You never told me about this!"

Of course it is my choice. And I am proud to stand up for my principles no matter what the consequences. Thank... ahem... God, that such individuals exist to oppose tyranny or this world would be a very different place than it is now.

He offers free to each of us eternal life, and you call Him a tyrant. Whether He is or is not, do you think for one skinny minute you are "standing up" to Him?

"No weapon fashioned shall stand."

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 03:56 PM

Your vehicle will travel over the speed limit. Your choice is to drive no faster than the limit or over the limit. Same with sin. The judge does not make you speed. The law exists. It is in place. It expects to be obeyed OR punishment rendered. Should the officer who stops you or the judge who listens to your case or the manufacturer of your vehicle be blamed for your indiscretion?

I think not. No one to blame but the speeder.

You realize your stance on this issue qualifies you as a lib, don't you? "Don't balme me for speeding if my vehicle can exceed the limit."

What the heck has that to do with God condemning the race of man for what Adam and Eve did?

Listen, I dont need God to spank me, and I don't need God to forgive me. Do you know why, Bootlen? Because it is whether or not I can forgive myself that is important. And if I could not; if I felt that I had truly committed a crime against humanity (not believing that Jesus was divine is a far thing from a crime against humanity), then trust me, the punishment that I would deliver upon myself would be quite a bit worse than hell.

So, how did you get that I feel I am not to blame for mistakes? Again, just because some of you believers make a hobby of pulling concepts from thin air does not give them validty. In short, you don't know what you are talking about. At least, on this issue. :)

He offers free to each of us eternal life, and you call Him a tyrant. Whether He is or is not, do you think for one skinny minute you are "standing up" to Him?

Uh, let's see. God threatens me with hell unless I believe. He does not guide me along the path, he uses a veritable whip. What's your definition of tyranny, Boot?

Who said I would make a difference? It is simply impossible for me to not stand up for what I believe in regardless of consequence. In any case, I could not hide my feelings from God even if I wanted to. Your version of God is one which I find to be quite ugly, Bootlen. If that's how he is, he'll know how I feel about him even before my death.

RoBoTeq

06-28-2007, 04:25 PM

OK, before we get into more of the fundie new earth stuff again, let's dwell a little on our relationship with God.

It seems that scrog does not feel that God is doing enough on His part to bond the relationship between Scrog and God. :confused:

Just what is it you want God to do scrog? Introduce Himself? Would you believe anyone who says; Hi scrog, I'm God, let's be buds?

Is it possible that it is you who are not doing your part in this relationship? I mean, God has given us mortal life, a well tempered planet to live on with plenty of food and even some nice looking women. Could it be you cannot see the forest because of all of the trees?

Scrog; run around the block or some other fairly strenous exercise. Then sit/lay down under a tree where there are no human distractions. Look at all of the natural things around you. Even if you are in a city, there is the emmenseness of the sky, the invisible, life supporting air that will cool you if you push it across your skin, plain old dirt that can support plant life to feed us, give us medicines or just provide beauty. Now, think about what God might be to you and just start a one way conversation in your mind. Don't look for direct answers, but rather just keep up the conversation from your end. Let me know if anything happens.

ozone drone

06-28-2007, 04:34 PM

Six year old little girls with bald heads from cancer.
Children born disfigured with "harelips"
Any diseased child.

These are true sins if their only reason for being is that 2 people a millenia ago made a bad choice. War, famine, disease, natural disasters,crime, poverty, ad nauseun inflicted on a globe full of people because of original sin?
Who needs a Satan ????

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 04:55 PM

It seems that scrog does not feel that God is doing enough on His part to bond the relationship between Scrog and God.

Exactly correct.

Just what is it you want God to do scrog? Introduce Himself? Would you believe anyone who says; Hi scrog, I'm God, let's be buds?

Yes, that is exactly what I want. Would I believe it? Sure. Because both you and I know that I would require some sort of demonstration.

Is it possible that it is you who are not doing your part in this relationship? I mean, God has given us mortal life, a well tempered planet to live on with plenty of food and even some nice looking women. Could it be you cannot see the forest because of all of the trees?

Could be. My question to you is… if God is all-knowing, why would he create my soul with the *foreknowledge* that I will be consigned to hell? Hell for unbelievers is an injustice. The injustice is furthered when we consider that God, an omnipotent being that DEMANDS that people believe in him, could have, AS an omnipotent being, made it a *lot* more obvious that he exists than is apparent. If God needs everyone to believe, well then, bring him on! Why does he not show himself?

What’s wrong with that concept, exactly?

I know that the total illogic of the situation is somewhat lost on a believer, and that’s cool. :) If you want to know why, that’s why. God as Bootlen descibes is a tyrannical sadist. God as you describe is a lot better, but the burden is STILL on him, not me. Sorry, but even after 50 years I still have yet to find a way to connect to supernatural beings. :)

bootlen

06-28-2007, 05:30 PM

What the heck has that to do with God condemning the race of man for what Adam and Eve did?

What I hear you saying is that you have never sinned. (I'll call you an outright liar on that count without batting an eye.) Fact is, you have. Everyone has. YOU are not condemned for what THEY did. You are condemned for what YOU do. That's why I said we condemn ourselves.

Listen, I dont need God to spank me, and I don't need God to forgive me.

Really? You are still saying you are sinless?

Do you know why, Bootlen? Because it is whether or not I can forgive myself that is important.

And now you claim to be God.

And if I could not; if I felt that I had truly committed a crime against humanity (not believing that Jesus was divine is a far thing from a crime against humanity), then trust me, the punishment that I would deliver upon myself would be quite a bit worse than hell.

Not believing in the deity of Christ is the same as not believing He could do what is necessary to abtain your forgiveness...that He is an unworthy advocate. Kinda like rejecting a lawyer in a criminal case. Can't remember exactly how it goes, but something like this, "The attorney who would represent himself is a fool."

So, how did you get that I feel I am not to blame for mistakes? Again, just because some of you believers make a hobby of pulling concepts from thin air does not give them validty.

You blame God for your sin. Kinda like blaming Remington or Colt for murders using their weapons.

Uh, let's see. God threatens me with hell unless I believe.

No. No threats. Just the message of an existing law. Do you consider speed limit signs to be a form of tyranny?

He does not guide me along the path, he uses a veritable whip.

Sure He does. You refuse to listen. I looked all throughout Scripture and the only whip I could find is the scourge used on Christ.

Who said I would make a difference?

I give up. Who said that? Not me.

It is simply impossible for me to not stand up for what I believe in regardless of consequence.

Good. And I really admire that about you. But ya really need to be careful when you pick your battles, friend.;)

In any case, I could not hide my feelings from God even if I wanted to.

See? You DO know a little about God. He does indeed know your every thought.

Your version of God is one which I find to be quite ugly, Bootlen.

Then you don't know my God.

If that's how he is, he'll know how I feel about him even before my death.

Not that He "will", but that He already does. And He has since before the foundation of the earth.

dking

06-28-2007, 07:48 PM

Scrog, I have been following this thread for a while now and well, I can't quite figure out if you are honestly looking for someone to "prove it" or just like to spark a hot topic and get people all fired up about this inflamitory topic.
Either way I don't want to get cought up in it just wanted to give you a good resource, a place you can take your desire to explore all the options and see what you think on your own apart from any soapbox or rant.

This link is to a website for a guy who was the biggest eitheist I have ever heard of. Check out his research and see what you think.
http://www.leestrobel.com/

braces4impact

06-28-2007, 09:04 PM

geerair

06-28-2007, 09:34 PM

Lee Strobel is as easily refuted as anyone on this website.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/strobel.html

http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/articles/strobel_cfac.htmYeah, Strobel is pretty lame.

geerair

06-28-2007, 10:00 PM

Whatever, Boot. Eternal life in "paradise" is not for me anyway. I do not seek it. In fact, hell might even be better than heaven. Well of course it is.

Would you want to spend an eternity singing psalms with a bunch of stick in the mud, holier than thou types or spend it partying with the kind of folks who know how to partaaaayyyyyy? :D :D :D

bootlen

06-28-2007, 10:15 PM

Well of course it is.

Would you want to spend an eternity singing psalms with a bunch of stick in the mud, holier than thou types or spend it partying with the kind of folks who know how to partaaaayyyyyy? :D :D :D

Hey, ihatton. See what I mean?

scrogdog

06-28-2007, 10:23 PM

How would you define paradise, Boot? And why would it be enjoyable to you?

bootlen

06-28-2007, 11:02 PM

How would you define paradise, Boot? And why would it be enjoyable to you?

Actually, God has defined it.

God has revealed a very few facets of Himself through His Word, through prayer, and through my experiences with others. He has shown His love...infinite in depth; He has shown His provision...infinite in method; He has shown His mercy...infinite in measure. These are just 3 facets of many He has allowed His children (believers) to see and there are countless other facets yet to be revealed in eternity. There are really no words in any language that can express His greatness and glory. He created all that is and He wants a one on one personal relationship with me...and you as well.

There are other facets of Paradise, too. Revelation 21 talks some about what Heaven will be like. But it all pales in comparison to just walking with the One who came and died in my place.

I owe Him a debt I will never be able to repay but all He asks in return is to walk with me. I don't understand it completely but it is what He says and He has no reason to lie about it. And I have no reason to reject it.

I feel so inadequate to define Paradise. John saw it and wrote about it but it just doesn't do it justice. It cannot be verbalized. It must be experienced.