2 stage blower, singlestage condenser..

[spatterfree]

Hi, I'm installing a Vi-velocity system and it's the new one with a 2 stage cool and a 2 stage heat options, and i have a 14 seer goodman condenser unit,
Will that 1 stage condenser work with my system, if yes, will i have a benefit of using the 2 stage blower, if no..what condenser would you recommend using with this setup, Or is it possible to convert this condenser into a 2 stage? please help me...thanks,

[beenthere]

Who's offering a 2 stage HV blower.

[spatterfree]

hi-velocity.com
It's the new HE-70 or something...



Who's offering a 2 stage HV blower.

[spatterfree]

Heres a link of the new blower.....

http://www.hi-velocity.com/en/brochures/ESP%20110.04%20HE%20Features%20&%20Benefits%20Brochure_EN.pdf

[beenthere]

Imteresting.

I'll have to check into it.

[spatterfree]

Seems like i'll have to post this elsewhere....

[tpa-fl]

There's no practical way to change a condensing unit to a 2-stage system. What you can do, would be to add a TXV to the air handler and get a dehumidistat to switch between low & high fan speeds based on how much humidity there is inside. So, better dehumidification would be possible and the unit probably would run on the lower fan speed at night (quieter operation), high fan speed during the day. That's about all you can do with that.

[spatterfree]

OK....well...do you think I could run the blower 2 stage, and leave the condenser unit as a single stage...would there be any problems besides not being quite as efficient? would the a-coil ice up becuase theres less air going through?

[schu]

you would not want to slow down the indoor blower more that 10 or 12%. High pressure duct systems are already 'pushing the envelope' with cfm ratings of about 250 cfm per ton and even with and expansion valve coil you'd risk damaging the compressor with liquid flood-back. Copeland makes the 'ultra', a 2-stage scroll compressor that's pretty rugged but I think a retrofit into another condensing unit could be tricky

[tpa-fl]

It depends what you're trying to achieve. I guess the best question to ask at this point is why you'd want to modify this system. If you're not in a high humidity climate, then there's no reason to mess with it. Operating with a lower airflow will substantially reduce efficiency. If you're removing excess humidity, the "lost" efficiency is actually well-spent in removing humidity, otherwise you're just wasting money.

Definitely add a freeze-stat to the coil as well.

[spatterfree]

ok, so your saying that it wouldn't work what i want to do because the compresser would flood back?.. the hi-cooling is around 770 cfm...and the low-cooling setting is around 465cfm....I'm still wondering if i could apply that condenser unit to my system as a 2 stage cooling..




you would not want to slow down the indoor blower more that 10 or 12%. High pressure duct systems are already 'pushing the envelope' with cfm ratings of about 250 cfm per ton and even with and expansion valve coil you'd risk damaging the compressor with liquid flood-back. Copeland makes the 'ultra', a 2-stage scroll compressor that's pretty rugged but I think a retrofit into another condensing unit could be tricky

[spatterfree]

Well, the most important thing i want to achieve is keeping the ducts from creating too much noice, so basicly it would be a quieter system and i would only need the Hi-cooling stage when theres a really warm day...like today we have a 90 degree day at about 80 to 90 percent humidity...

[spatterfree]

And i never said i want to mod the system, I'm just questioning if it would work..
would it matter if the condenser would be single stage, and the blower 2 stage...thats really all i'm wondering,
And the coil i have is http://www.hi-velocity.com/en/manuals/ESP%20105.03%20R%20Series%20Cooling%20Modules_EN_% 20Lo-Res.pdf
and i think there is a freeze-stat in it..i have the pre-piped module...called RPM





It depends what you're trying to achieve. I guess the best question to ask at this point is why you'd want to modify this system. If you're not in a high humidity climate, then there's no reason to mess with it. Operating with a lower airflow will substantially reduce efficiency. If you're removing excess humidity, the "lost" efficiency is actually well-spent in removing humidity, otherwise you're just wasting money.

Definitely add a freeze-stat to the coil as well.

[skippedover]

Are you aware that the hi velocity systems had to get a waiver from the EPA to stay in business when the new minimum SEER rating increased to 13? The best SEER rating their coils could achieve was 11.5 SEER. So typical of the EPA, they bent the rules rather than put the hi velocity companies out of business. The bottom line is, why would you want to waste the efficiency of the 14-SEER unit by installing a hi velocity system? The hi velocity of choice in our area is the Unico system. All of the Unico cooling units come with a TXV because their blower units are dual rated, meaning they're good for two condenser sizes. When you want to restrict the blower to the smaller size, you install a 'choke' plate in the blower supply outlet. It works but the blower motor is blowing a gasket (pardon the pun) trying to push full volume of air that it can't because of the choke plate. The variable speed blower seems to make more sense if you can control the speed better, I'll give it that but I'm no fan of hi velocity. Out our way it's just a cheap way to get the plumbing side of the industry into the cooling side. They don't need to know anything, don't need to be able to build a trunk or run a load. They just drop the plan off at the local supply house who sizes the system for them and go popping those little supplies into the rooms. Then they call an HVAC company to hook up the condenser that they purchased. Oh yeah and they want the HVAC contractor to fix any problems with the equipment, answer any warranty calls all the while the profit went to the plumber. Needless to say, we don't do any othat work the the other plumbers (we do plumbing too but HVAC was our first business).

[spatterfree]

I think I'll take whatever you said about the EPA with a grain of salt.....
However, the new motor uses 50% less electric.... + it has 2 stage heating and 2 stage cooling. so all you have to do is install a 2 stage condenser then you have the most efficient system ever built....

[tpa-fl]

However, the new motor uses 50% less electric.... + it has 2 stage heating and 2 stage cooling. so all you have to do is install a 2 stage condenser then you have the most efficient system ever built....

Um... not exactly. While there are shortcuts to efficiency, you're most likely NOT going to get there with that unit. The current preferred way to reach high efficiency is to oversize the coils AND run a lot of air through them. High velocity systems are used when you can't run huge ducts nor large coils.

[spatterfree]

they up-sized the coil by 10 to 20 percent...so it's more effecient..
And i'm still wondering.....what does a ice contol do..does it by chance tell the condenser to shut off, or to slow down? if it somehow regulates the flow, then i think the 2 stage blower with the single stage condenser would work ok....right?

[ga-hvac-tech]

This thread reminds me of the 100 MPG carbuerators and the pill that mixes with water in the gas tank articles one sees in tabloid magazines.

If this new fangled technology was really better, it would be mainstream. Since it is not, there has to be a reason.

IMO, a little objective thinking here (and less enthusiam) would be a good idea.

Good luck... please tell us how it works when you are through.

[spatterfree]

can't see what your point is....
I think this site has too many ppl that try to keep the Hi-velocity out of the picture....

[ga-hvac-tech]

can't see what your point is....
I think this site has too many ppl that try to keep the Hi-velocity out of the picture....

Would it be possible that this site has a lot of folks that have enough experience with HV that they understand the limitations? Just asking...

[spatterfree]

i doubt..........the system isn't as bad as you think...do you have any expericances at all with one before you condem it.
I've actually talked to my local HVAC installer, and he installs lennox, among a few others and he said he gets the best results with the HV system...

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well my friend, you obviously know more than us professionals. I guess I need to respectfully back away and let the more knowledgeable person move forward. Best to you!

[spatterfree]

No....im not a professinal....but i give things that don't go my way a chance and not just condem it................. and I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to HVAC.....but i know that theres nothing wrong with the HV system...esp the new system with the bigger ducts.....and in my house...I couldn't even install a conventional duct...because the duct size that i would need is at smallest 14x18 and thats TOOOOOO big....so the HV isa perfect choice for me.......

[super_tech_1]

are you an engineer every time i have a customer like you they always seem to be engineers

[spatterfree]

Sorry dear, I'm not an engineer.....

[spatterfree]

Ok...now i feel like an engineer....
that new motor actually decides what speed it'll go according to the load of the motor.and it's totally variable and runs the optimum speed that the certain amount of vents require... and it has a frequency drive built right into the unit to speed up and slow down accordingly....so i don't need a 2 stage condenser unit and i don't even need a 2 stage thermostat...it does everything automatically.....cheers to the Hi-velocity group!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tpa-fl]

Ok...now i feel like an engineer....
that new motor actually decides what speed it'll go according to the load of the motor.and it's totally variable and runs the optimum speed that the certain amount of vents require... and it has a frequency drive built right into the unit to speed up and slow down accordingly....so i don't need a 2 stage condenser unit and i don't even need a 2 stage thermostat...it does everything automatically.....cheers to the Hi-velocity group!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spoken like a true engineer -- dead wrong. From their own literature, the Hi-Velocity systems use a VFD motor that is capable of operating at a wide variety of speeds. It hints that it might be able to compensate for something, but the spec sheet shows that it doesn't compensate for restrictive/open ductwork like the typical variable speed systems' ECM motors would. The manuals also show the need for a 2-stage thermostat if it is desired that the system operate as a 2-stage system. RTFM. It's helpful.

[spatterfree]

it has a electronic controlled motor and it speeds it up accordingly to what the house needs for the certain amount to ducts...i have 30 in mine so i'll set the blower to 30 ducts.....and then when it's blowing too hard, or not enough, you can adjust it with a dipper switch...and my local HVAC installer contacted Energy saving products about it....I can ask him to contact them again if you have your doubts about it...

[ga-hvac-tech]

I have a beer that says it will not work as well as it appears... :) Care to take the other side of the wager?

[spatterfree]

you're like the ppl back when they argued it's imposible faxing a piece of paper......they thought the paper has to go from one place to the other, some were even concerned that when they fax in the rain or wind...the paper will blow off the wires.... but i think you don't need another beer... :)))))

[ga-hvac-tech]

No my friend, I have had some experience with HV systems. They just do not perform as well as conventional systems IMO. But to each their own.

I truely hope it does work out and I am wrong, because I would hate to see someone pay a lot of $$$ and be disappointed. But it is your choice, so make the choice wisely.

Two things: Choose your contractor carefully, as installation is WAAAY more important than equipment; and let us know how it works out.

Oh, and thx for the funny about faxing... :) Reminds me of the 100 MPG carbuerators of the 70's... :rolleyes:

[spatterfree]

yes....i know that they were bad at starting out....they had a fancoil with a reostat motor and they had a knob to adjust the continuous fan and the heating part of it...and they were too loud... and all they had was a HIGH cooling...and when they switched to cooling...the lights in our house flickered..but with the newer series that came out...they are like a frequency drive and they speed up slowly and the have mufflers to take out the noise from the ducts...and that newer premoduled a-coil is bigger and simplier to install...you braze 2 joints on it, and thenthe other 2 at the condenser...
And another thing they resently did was..they upsized the diameter of the ducts..so instead of useing 4 in a typical room, you only need 2...WAY TO GO...!!!!!

[spatterfree]

Ohh....i'm installing it myself......and i wouldn't finish the ceiling in our basement until it's all done and make sure i have all the kinks out of the system...
so far I'm doing it according to the video that i downloaded from Hi-velocity.com.. it's actually easy and i enjoy doing it...

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ohh....i'm installing it myself......and i wouldn't finish the ceiling in our basement until it's all done and make sure i have all the kinks out of the system...
so far I'm doing it according to the video that i downloaded from Hi-velocity.com.. it's actually easy and i enjoy doing it...

Oh my my my...

Please DO let us know how it works out!

[spatterfree]

Not a prob......do you want pictures???


Oh my my my...

Please DO let us know how it works out!

[ga-hvac-tech]

Not a prob......do you want pictures???

Yes, pictures would be GREAT!

THX for offering, it will be interesting to see... :)

[spatterfree]

Only funny thing that i can think of right now is the lennox 6 inch thick filter rack that I'll have to make a transition for the return side of it...the rack is 25x16 and my return duct is 15x13...but i think I'll be able to make something decent looking...
I'm painting the sheetrock today....so give me at least 2 weeks...then I'll know just how good this system works...

[ga-hvac-tech]

Only funny thing that i can think of right now is the lennox 6 inch thick filter rack that I'll have to make a transition for the return side of it...the rack is 25x16 and my return duct is 15x13...but i think I'll be able to make something decent looking...
I'm painting the sheetrock today....so give me at least 2 weeks...then I'll know just how good this system works...

Do transition that looks like a 4 sided rectangular funnel, and no less than 12 inches long between the two components. It should be easy for you to do the math and geometry to design, cut it out, and build it. Use sheet metal, tape it up so there are NO air leaks, and wrap it with some kind of insulation.

Have fun!

[spatterfree]

Well...i'm planning on keeping about 8 ft between the a-coil and the filter rack..
the return is just a wild return and the filter is about 4 inches from the wall with a register on the other side of the wall..... the filter rack is standing upright because i didn't have the room to mount it sideways..... like 24 high and 14 wide..
but the tricky part is...the duct that i need to make is 13 high and 15 wide.....but with a 8 foot duct between them..
and the duct will have acoustic insulation on the inside... to keep the wild return noise to the minimum.. it'll be interesting to see what will become of all that....but i think i have it drawn up to the point where i can get an overall picture of what it'll be like....



Do transition that looks like a 4 sided rectangular funnel, and no less than 12 inches long between the two components. It should be easy for you to do the math and geometry to design, cut it out, and build it. Use sheet metal, tape it up so there are NO air leaks, and wrap it with some kind of insulation.

Have fun!

[tpa-fl]

it has a electronic controlled motor and it speeds it up accordingly to what the house needs for the certain amount to ducts...i have 30 in mine so i'll set the blower to 30 ducts.....and then when it's blowing too hard, or not enough, you can adjust it with a dipper switch...and my local HVAC installer contacted Energy saving products about it....I can ask him to contact them again if you have your doubts about it...

I read the actual literature and manuals provided by Hi Velocity/Energy Savings Products and that's where I got my info from. I'd suggest you read it before jumping to conclusions (or worse, purchasing this system.)

[spatterfree]

Go read the manual with the HE70 blower unit...
and i already purchased the unit....