RTHC/D Overhauls

[steward]

Trane says that the RTHC/D chillers can not be overhauled in the field. So whats everbody doing when these units do have a bearing issue? Also besides oil and vibration analysis what are you doing to check for any potential issues?

[jimbob73]

http://trane.com/Commercial/Dna/View.aspx?i=1991

Popular solution for your problem with a good warranty to boot

[jayguy]

that is pretty much true. the tolerances are too tight to be able to perform an overhaul in the field. you can remove the compressor (motor and all...as a single unit) and send it in to trane. they can then rebuild it and send it back for you to re-install. it comes with a warranty and everything.

about the only thing you can do is oil analysis, vibration analysis, megging, etc. to help determine when a failure is going to happen soon. and do not forget eddy current analysis.

[low pressure guy]

I Believe If Its A Compressor Issue You Need To Return Compressor To Factory For Repair.

[absrbrtek]

The series "R" program is just a way to force the customer to use Trane service to get an extended warranty. Another way to bone the independent contractors by your freindly local dealer. As long as the rotors don't rub or crash into the wall, the compressor is rebuildable. JMHO

[19 D Guy]

I have an rthb I replaced 3-4 weeks ago. Started up and this sucker was loud. I mean you could hear it over the other two big time. Brought Trane in and first we were gonna change out the oil seperator, Trane said that they sound like this when the sep. is cracked. Later on, two days later decided to change out entire compressor assy. I personally think that Trane in N.C. has the same kinda techs most all commercial contractors have. Some good, some not so good, and we all have bad days. Just because the "factory" puts there hands on it and blesses it, does that make it any better built machine than what non factory personnel can do? I personally don't think so.

[heatingman]

you're right there are some good, and some okay, and some bad, but what the blessing gives the end user is peace of mind, and a labor and pars warranty, and usually when there are questions about what is and isnt normal, if the techsor the branch personell dont know, we can call the engineer who designed it.

[19 D Guy]

I am from Houston, where the Trane here is not a factory owned store. We usually can't get much help from local but we do from Pueblo, N.C., or Lacrosse. If you are a tech and that have been to the factory schools, then they usually give you numbers to be able to reach factory personell with questions you may have. "Factory" means that you all should have the leg up on us contractors, but things are changing and have been for several years. Factory means add 30% to the bill and the warranty that most legit contractors give is the same.

[ej45]

Thats bullsh** that Trane builds a screw compressor that is not field repairable! They do it to keep all thier factory techs working and to cut out all the poor contractors that struggle to make ends met. I know for a fact that I can field repair a Trane screw compressor and set the end thrust tolerances to the MICRON. I got the tool on my truck!

[ej45]

The series "R" program is just a way to force the customer to use Trane service to get an extended warranty. Another way to bone the independent contractors by your freindly local dealer. As long as the rotors don't rub or crash into the wall, the compressor is rebuildable. JMHOAB, I respect your knoledge and input but I have to defend Trane on this. It has nothing to due with cutting out a local contractor. Its about markets and great market savy. Someone thought one day, hey...there are alot of older screws out there and as a company we can help the customer at the same time make money. Keep it simple.. upgrade equipment and supply a customer with a like new warrenty. That kicks but if I was a customer. Its not for everyone, but I think there is a good market for it.

There is nothing stopping a contractor or you from offering this same kind of service and warrenty. Just supply the rebuilt compressors and complete the same upgrades and supply a warrenty on the equipment. Its risk and reward. Again, there is no one stopping contractors from doing it.

Trane is a leader and not a follower. I think thats why they take alot of shots.

[absrbrtek]

I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to break balls here, however I feel it's a service sales ploy. Why won't Trane offer us an extended compresser warranty as a contractor if the customer maintains a contract with us and we perform all of the maintanence properly? They won't, it is to boost there service sales.

What if the customer doesn't want the local Trane office on there premises due to past dealings with them? I guess this deal isn't for them?


AB, I respect your knoledge and input but I have to defend Trane on this. It has nothing to due with cutting out a local contractor. Its about markets and great market savy. Someone thought one day, hey...there are alot of older screws out there and as a company we can help the customer at the same time make money. Keep it simple.. upgrade equipment and supply a customer with a like new warrenty. That kicks but if I was a customer. Its not for everyone, but I think there is a good market for it.

There is nothing stopping a contractor or you from offering this same kind of service and warrenty. Just supply the rebuilt compressors and complete the same upgrades and supply a warrenty on the equipment. Its risk and reward. Again, there is no one stopping contractors from doing it.

Trane is a leader and not a follower. I think thats why they take alot of shots.

[absrbrtek]

I agree, I know contractors that have rebuilt them with great success.
Thats bullsh** that Trane builds a screw compressor that is not field repairable! They do it to keep all thier factory techs working and to cut out all the poor contractors that struggle to make ends met. I know for a fact that I can field repair a Trane screw compressor and set the end thrust tolerances to the MICRON. I got the tool on my truck!

[jayguy]

I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to break balls here, however I feel it's a service sales ploy. Why won't Trane offer us an extended compresser warranty as a contractor if the customer maintains a contract with us and we perform all of the maintanence properly? They won't, it is to boost there service sales.

What if the customer doesn't want the local Trane office on there premises due to past dealings with them? I guess this deal isn't for them?

in our office, we are starting to self warrant quite a few things...Trane is getting pretty picky about how much time we spend compared to how much time they think that it should take. we take great pride in our service abilities...i know some offices do not (Trane and non-Trane). start your own warranty pool and offer your own extended warranties.

[absrbrtek]

We have plenty of full maintanence agreements now. I just feel if Trane offers it to the end user the contractors should get the same deal. JMHO

[steward]

I was told by my local Trane office, as a contractor, my only option was to buy a new compressor if we had any bearing issues. The "R" series program was only available to Trane service office's and that no bearing "parts" were even available to me. The only thing I could do to the "compressor" was work on the slide-valve. Abs, I also am part of CSG just trying to get a feel for what others are doing as this comes up. We do not have any bearing issues at this time, but do have a customer very interested in properly maintaining the units and what we can do for him if needed in the future.

[ej45]

Steward, your Trane office is not making this up. If you have a bearing issue, replace the compressor with a warrenty. The end thrust on Trane screws are set to EXACT tolerances with a machine that measures MICRON. A micron is one millionth of a meter, were not doing this in the field. If this is not exact on start up the rotors when heated will grow/expand and you guess it..CRASH.

Pick your battles wisely, you dont want to buy the compressor out of your pocket. We had a guy slide open a screw to replace an oring as per IOM and the compressor lock rotor at start up.

Sounds like your doing a great job if your doing oil tests, megging, close operation inspections, check compressor terminals, starter inspection, refrigerant charge, ...........Hope this helps

[ej45]

We have plenty of full maintanence agreements now. I just feel if Trane offers it to the end user the contractors should get the same deal. JMHOWhy should Trane offer a contractor this? Does Toyota offer an extended warrenty to a local garage if they do a pre-owned inspection? No, if a dealership does they give a warrenty.

I hear what your issue is, your fear is Trane is going to steal an account from you. Contractors steal accounts all the time from Trane also. Contractors have a lower operating cost and labor rates. least in my area. Its what makes America "America". free trade.

Again offer the same service and warrenty and call it something special. If your doing full maintenance contracts now, whats the difference?, except your company is replacing the compressors and going over the unit for additional money. Sounds like a WIN WIN.

[jayguy]

i do not want to talk about price...but, local contractors do not have to perform warranty repairs. we do. and at about half of our current rates. Trane corporate sets the rates and "lets" us do them.

i like ej's point of view example with Toyotas.

however, i would not call most of the local contractors that we really compete against as "local garages"...although i get the point.

[ga1279]

To 19 D guy I do remember when the RTHA first came out and a independant rebuilt one at a hospital in Matagorda, as far as I know it is still running. They had to go to Germany for all the bearings. I'm from Houston also.

[absrbrtek]

I don't know Tranes costs to run a shop. I know we both have the same expenses though. Insurances, trucks, wages, taxes etc. If we are cheaper than Trane it's only due to better management practices, not lower operating costs. Our manpower costs the same as Trane's.
Contractors have a lower operating cost and labor rates. least in my area.

.

[19 D Guy]

ga1279- Yeah I have a friend from Dallas and they have rebuilt a lot of them, well 12 or 14, they have not had any problems with them after they have rebuilt them either. There are some good mechanics out there in our industry and when customers realize that then they usually have no problem letting someone other than factory work on there machines.

[chiller mekanik]

I've been watching this one & at first I was going to stay out of it but now I can't resist.

I'm sure Abs would agree with me on this; quality contractors are not at all worried about Trane "stealing" customers. I would put our service dept toe to toe with ANY mfr's service department. (by the way, we're not always the cheapest)

Our problem is when the mfr's try to stack the deck. I'll give you a few examples to ponder.

The mfr builds the machine, expects the contractor to buy it & then the mfr competes directly with us for the service business. I probably wouldn't have so much heartburn if the mfr's didn't use tatics like: our guys are "certified", the independent has only completed a study course on the machine, but they still are not "certified".

Then, there is the parts issue, which I hate to even get started on, one mfr is pretty fair & consistant with pricing. Another is not as fair but is atleast consistant. The third one is consistant alright but look out on the price. Then, last but not least, the fourth mfr wouldn't know consistancy if it hit them up beside the head.

The local parts center in my area, without exception, is almost double the price of what I pay from other parts centers in other states.

We write our fair share of comprehensive contracts, but when we buy the machine & install it, if the mfr agreed to sell it to us in the first place, we should be able to provide the service in the warranty period & deal directly with the mfr for payment & support, after all, we are a customer in that case. Looks to me like the mfr is the one thats worried about someone "stealing" their customers.

And as far as rebuilding the R series screws, nothing to it, we've done it with 100% success every time.

[tolmn61]

I have a problem with all the manufacturers quoting equipment directly to the customers or their engineering firms. Then they offer a service plan to boot at a price that no body could touch because if something were to go wrong you would loose your A??. Manufacturers are trying to push the independent companies out where ever they develope there own service dept. You just better have a good relationship with your clients and try to be as reasonably priced as possible.

[heatingman]

I have a problem with all the manufacturers quoting equipment directly to the customers or their engineering firms. Then they offer a service plan to boot at a price that no body could touch because if something were to go wrong you would loose your A??. Manufacturers are trying to push the independent companies out where ever they develope there own service dept. You just better have a good relationship with your clients and try to be as reasonably priced as possible.

I don't know about other Trane offices, but here in Chicago, we back away from alot of work when we are bidding against the large installation oufits in the area, because we don't want to step on the big players toes. Its the same reason Trane doesn't do installs, we'd get run out of town if we did.

[ga1279]

To All of you,
Please considor this, all things being equal the only difference between a factory tech and one of us is that he has the emblem on his shirt and truck. It does not mean he has been "factory trained" on that equipment. Most factory techs just happened to be in the right place at the right time and got the job there. I am a former Trane employee and I tell you when new equipment comes out in the field now there has been no testing and little if any factory support because they are waiting to here from the field on what's breaking down. It's not like you join a company and they send you to (ie) La Crosse, Pueblo, Charlotte or wherever the equipment is manufactured. I know alot of techs who never worked for the factory I would put up against their techs. After my employment with Trane I remember having the "factory Tech" there to do a start-up of an RTAA for a lab, it used 100% outside air, in Houston during the summer. This guy was totally lost and the office had to give my company a PO# so I could start it. Think about it guys ga1279

[absrbrtek]

There lies the problem. I've seen their techs in action, some were really good and some not so good. But when they approach your customer they insure them that only they are qualified to service any of their equipment. Then they'll bash the independent contractors during their sales pitch claiming we are all idiots. A very sad way to go to market!!!!
To All of you,
Please considor this, all things being equal the only difference between a factory tech and one of us is that he has the emblem on his shirt and truck. It does not mean he has been "factory trained" on that equipment. Most factory techs just happened to be in the right place at the right time and got the job there.

[tolmn61]

Heatingman,
They don't provide the installation. There's not much margin in that. They just want to sell their equipment. The independent on large jobs without the mark up of the equipment is left with their pants around their ankles if everything doesn't go just right during installation. Labor only jobs are not profitable if you miss your mark. Your guys would be more productive running billable calls keeping the old stuff running instead of trying to sell the client manufacturers new product line. I recently advised a couple clients into the purchase of (3) Trane RTAC machines 1-400 ton 1-250 ton and 1-200 ton. It's not only Trane it's all of them. If the factory sells them direct suddenly I'm calling the manufacturer for my client for the first years warranty work in order to keep things in check. This happened on (3) McQuay 160 ton chillers sold to the same client last year. The only good to come out of this is the lack of enthusiasm by the manufacturer service dept. to respond to the clients needs was noticed by the client.

[jayguy]

hey guys...lets put the blame where the blame needs to be. techs are techs. some good. some not so good. saying that trane techs do not know anything or carrier techs do not know anything is going a little too far. they are techs just like you once were. some factory offices do a really good job of sending techs to factory training facilities. some do not. some independant contractors also do a good job of sending their techs to factory classes. some do not.

judge the tech. not the company.

generally speaking. factory offices do have the ability to have better qualified techs. factory offices are supposed to be able to take care of factory made equiptment better due to more factory training, more on-time service bulletin announcements and even confidential stuff. this does not mean that EVERY tech has the ability to be perfect on every type of equiptment that the factory can put out. you do not have that ability, why should any other tech be put on the spot to have that ability.

i know that some factory salespersons can get a little bit over zealous with the sales pitch. so can independant salespersons. you know this too. i promise you that you have come across more poorly qualified independant techs than factory techs. i also know that you have had to deal with more over zealous independant salespersons promising the moon and the sun. the factory people are just people too. yes, they get a little bit more credit going into a blind situation or sales meeting than the independants. but it is what happens at the end of the meeting that counts.

my personal point of view: it should be very clear that i am the best tech for this customer. if my customer goes looking...i did not make it clear enough or i am not the best choice. i can deal with that. if you already have your foot in the door and have been taking care of that customer for a long time, then it should be very clear that you are the best choice for them as well.

i have seen where some independants get really p!$$ed off because our sales people have sold a job where the independant has been there forever. most of those sales are to jobs where the customer is dissatisfied and was looking for someone else anyway. a lot of times, this is where the factory gets the credit that it may or may not deserve. "the factory built it, why not let them service it?" the customer is going to have to choose somebody and he probably does not have any better reasoning to choose somebody else. it is just an easy choice.

[19 D Guy]

I have a problem with all the manufacturers quoting equipment directly to the customers or their engineering firms. Then they offer a service plan to boot at a price that no body could touch because if something were to go wrong you would loose your A??. Manufacturers are trying to push the independent companies out where ever they develope there own service dept. You just better have a good relationship with your clients and try to be as reasonably priced as possible.

On the thought that they are getting a better price, I would not be so sure. I have a customer that just bought a 200 ton machine, bought straight from the manufacturer. I priced the same machine from the same and I could have bought it for about $9,500.00 less. On top of that they are having us put it in and maintain. Not trying to be an a$$, just sharing my experience. Alot of schools buy there equiptment direct, the price is higher but they do get a little bit of help on questionable warranty calls.

[tolmn61]

19D
So if you could get it at such a better price and cover the first year warranty and make a decent profit selling it cheaper than the factory to your regular customer why do you suppose that they wouldn't go for it. Where's there bargain coming from. You'll owe them no warranty in the first year if they purchased it direct but it will open the door for the manufacturers service Tech. to introduce themselves to your customer. Well 19D not to be an A?? but your not going to find me there waitng with a pot of coffee for them. I have no problems at all with the techs. they go where they are sent like all of us. I have a problem with the manufaturers marketing strategies. Selling direct to the public is not wholesale that's retail.

[19 D Guy]

19D
So if you could get it at such a better price and cover the first year warranty and make a decent profit selling it cheaper than the factory to your regular customer why do you suppose that they wouldn't go for it. Where's there bargain coming from. You'll owe them no warranty in the first year if they purchased it direct but it will open the door for the manufacturers service Tech. to introduce themselves to your customer. Well 19D not to be an A?? but your not going to find me there waitng with a pot of coffee for them. I have no problems at all with the techs. they go where they are sent like all of us. I have a problem with the manufaturers marketing strategies. Selling direct to the public is not wholesale that's retail.

The reason that they don't is that it is over $25,000 generally when a piece of equiptment like this one is to be replaced. This being a facility that all projects over $25,000 has to be bid out he does not know who he will be stuck with. If company B gets bid he is stuck going through them for a year for any issues and warranty calls. You are crazy if you think that salesmen are not knocking on the doors of "your" customers weekly. Even the manufacturers salesmen are out there knocking on there doors. The only reason that any customer switches is the fact that the service guy or company he uses sucks. If they switch to a manufacturer for pricing reasons then dude you got issues. I have lost customers in the past, I am not saying that we haven't, but, I will not loose a customer due to the fact that one of my guys did not do a quality job.

[chiller mekanik]

Do the mfrs honestly believe they would sell less equipment if they stopped doing retail business??

If they only sold "wholesale", in other words, they sell only to someone that is going to sell it for a profit, they would still move the same amount of equipment if not more.

I think it should be the same way in the parts business, but thats another topic in itself. I buy parts at the same place as in house guys do, I've got no problem with in house guys, but we shouldn't be doing business at the same places. JMHO

You can't buy a car from General Motors, Ford, Chrysler or any of the rice burners mfrs, why isn't it the same way in our business??

Because they know there is money to be made in the service business. Therefore, they will continue to play on both sides of the fence.

If one of them had the nads to step up & make a comittment to do business with contractors only, they could probably corner the market. Oh yeah, but if they only did business with contractors, they sure as heck wouldn't want to compete with them.

Oh well, I guess I can dream.:D

[heatingman]

hey chiller, they sell to end users, because they sell service contracts w/ the equiptment. And if your buying enough vehichles, like the government, you can deal direct w/ the factory.