Need help with a/c vs heat pump decision with new home

[hata]

Hi All,
I'm brand new to this forum and was wondering if anyone could provide some perspective for my situation. I am building a new home in Cincinnati, OH and the builder has offered several choices for my HVAC. The house comes standard with a Carrier Infinity 96 Gas furnace and Infinity Thermostat but with a Carrier Base 24ABA3 model (SEER=13) for the A/C. The house is big enough that the builder will be putting in two HVAC systems. I want to know if a Hybrid system makes sense here.

My choices for heat pump are the Carrier 25HCA3, 25HPA3, and the 25HNA6

My only goal is to get a heat pump/hybrid if it makes sense financially and I have no idea what to do. I know you can't talk prices here so I won't quote them exactly, but hopefully I can talk about a price range.

In reading other posts, there is a lot of information that is provided regarding heat loss, space, utility cost,etc. Given the house is not built and I don't live there yet (currently residing on the East Coast), I'm sort of limited on what data I can provide. All I know is that my house is approximately 6000 sq ft with very good insulation, and a dual HVAC system.

Questions:
1. The 25HPA3 and the 25HNA6 are significantly more expensive, more than $10K for either option which was sticker shock for me. Would any of you seriously consider going this route, expecially since the winter will mainly run on gas since Cincinnati can be on the colder side during winter.

2. The 25HCA3 is much more reasonable at a few thousand dollars extra but, the SEER value is identical to the A/C unit, will the heat pump aspect pay itself out given this climate?

3. Should I inquire about a higher effeciency A/C unit instead, like the Infinity series Carrier or can I expect a $10K similar price increase over the standard as well?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I know there may not be a "right" answer here but any perspective would help as I just "don't have a clue."


Hata

[BaldLoonie]

Cincy would be a great place for dual fuel. Sad thing is, ugrades in a new home can be outrageously expensive. Your option of "a few thousand" for a same SEER heat pump over base A/C is horrible. Might as well take the base A/C then contact a Carrier dealer after you're in and swap it out then for less. I have a price list from a local builder that I was e-mailed by someone moving here and buying a new home. He wanted to know about dual fuel. This builder bundles their heat pump with a variable speed furnace for thousands more. I told him if he could get them to swap out the builder outdoor unit for a builder heat pump and controls for a reasonable amount, do it.

I understand the HVAC sub makes peanuts for the base work and has to make a buck somehow but some of these upgrades are robbery. I know I'll hear it from the new home dealers now :eek:

[hata]

Baldloonie,
Thanks for the reply. I was leaning towards taking the standard unit. Just to make sure, does your opinion of pricing take into account that I'm essentially buying two heat pumps? Thanks!

Warren

[Freezeking2000]

I would absolutely go dual fuel from the start. Many of the higher seer units cast alot, but a heat pump should only cost half of what you said.

I would go infinity and dual fuel.

[hata]

Freezeking 2000,
Thanks for the reply. So are you saying TWO infinity heat pumps should cost less than 10K?

A few people I know in the area have 1 year or newer homes with similar sq. ft. and have bills ranging from 300-500 depending on season. I have no idea how much I could save on my bill vs. the reg A/C unit, but based on SEER rating (which I know won't account for heating energy that the heat pump will be saving me during the 40F-60F months), the infinity heat pump (SEER=19) only saves me $400 a YEAR over a standard A/C unit with SEER=13 (taken from carrier website). Unless the amount of heating energy savings is HUGE during the fall and spring (which I can't imagine it would be), I don't see how this will pay out in less than 20 years........ what am I doing wrong?:(

Currently electricity for me is 0.137 kwh, and I used equations to convert SEER to get to an approximate annual cost.

[BaldLoonie]

"A few thousand" for 2 unit upgrades is better but still steep. Your electric rates are pretty steep too. Come 2 hours northwest and we run between 5 and 6 cents so you see why dual fuel is so desirable here. Still be a long payback if at all considering those electric rates.

[hata]

Baldloonie,
5-6 cents, wow, pretty nice. Of course, my 0.137 is for the East Coast, so I'm not sure what Cincinnati's is, just using my current as an estimate. You're reply makes it seem that A/C standard is the way to go, which my wife is pushing for given the sticker shock of the Infinity systems which again, are over 10K for two units.

I still am so clueless as to what to do. Is it a true statement that a heat pump with same SEER value as the A/C unit will not generate much in savings in from an cooling standpoint? In which case, the only savings come from the heating portion, which saves costs on natural gas? With my furnace being an Infinity 96, I'm not sure if the savings from a heating standpoint is that drastic vs. electricity.......

I guess all in all, it sounds like I'm going to go with the standars. I'd hate to pay an exorbitant amount of money and find out I'm only saving 50 bucks a month.......

sigh...

[dan sw fl]

Baldloonie, 5-6 cents, wow, pretty nice. Of course, my 0.137 is for the East Coast, so I'm not sure what Cincinnati's is, just using my current as an estimate.

You're reply makes it seem that A/C standard is the way to go, which my wife is pushing for given the sticker shock of the Infinity systems which again, are over 10K for two units.

I still am so clueless as to what to do. Is it a true statement that a heat pump with same SEER value as the A/C unit will not generate much in savings in from an cooling standpoint?

In which case, the only savings come from the heating portion, which saves costs on natural gas? With my furnace being an Infinity 96, I'm not sure if the savings from a heating standpoint is that drastic vs. electricity.......

I guess all in all, it sounds like I'm going to go with the standars. I'd hate to pay an exorbitant amount of money and find out I'm only saving 50 bucks a month.

Load Analysis
Equipment Selection
Operating Cost

The design process to follow in order to make a factual judgment
on real pay-back. Cooling savings will be minimal. Use of heat pump down to 34'F will provide significant savings where the electric rates are < $0.08/ kWhr.

Send drawing and window schedule if you wish to have the specific operating costs for your new residence.
_______________________________

http://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/understand/rates.asp
Electric rate is about $0.10 / kwHr

http://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/natural-gas/monthly-gas-cost-changes.asp
Gas ... $1.35 / therm
_________

Duke Energy Ohio (formerly Cincinnati Gas & Electric) distributes electricity and natural gas in Cincinnati and surrounding areas (including portions of Indiana and Kentucky). The subsidiary of energy holding company Duke Energy has 680,000 power and 420,000 gas customers. It also operates fossil-fueled power plants with more than 5,200 MW of generating capacity. In Ohio's deregulated power market, Duke Energy Ohio is a provider of last resort for customers who don't choose an alternative supplier.

[hata]

Hi Dan, when you say drawing and window schedule, will the floorplan of the home suffice? If not, what exactly is a window schedule. Sorry, I'm pretty new at this. I really appreciate your help.

[dan sw fl]

Hi Dan, when you say drawing and window schedule, will the floorplan of the home suffice? If not, what exactly is a window schedule.
Sorry, I'm pretty new at this. I really appreciate your help.

Plan for each floor is sufficient.
Architect may be able to send .DWG via e-mail.

Window Schedule indicates:
1. Window size
2. Manufacturer (Anderson, Pella, Marvin, Weathershield, PGT, other ...)
3. Product Model (casement, fixed, double hung, skylight, ...
4. Glass Type (i.e, Double pane, insulated, argon filled, tinting)

U-value and S.H.G.C. need to be determined
http://cpd.nfrc.org/pubsearch/psMain.asp
Note: ~ 350 manufacturers

Size of sliding glass doors ( 8'x8' 12'x8' ) ... also need to be indicated on the floor plan.

Total glass area is likely in the range of ~15% of 6,000 or 900 square feet. Heat loss or gain due to windows and sliding glass doors is normally in the range of 30% to 50% of the total heating or cooling load.

[hata]

Hi Dan! I have PDF of the basic floor plan and also the more detailed architectural plans. Can you provide an email to my address (hata@comcast.net) and I can send to you privately? Or if you really don't need the detailed one, I'll attach the basic "brochure" here.

What I know for now is

-The windows are Low-E insulated, double pane vinyl windows (don't know Manufacturer, I'll try to find out)
-Most of the windows are your typical sliding windows (one way)
-All winows are vinyl with wood jambs
-All basement windows ar 2x3 ft. vinyl sliders.

Is this enough for an estimate? If not, I can try to find out more from my sales guy.

[jrbenny]

Email is in his profile.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/member.php?u=30409

[dan sw fl]

In reading other posts, there is a lot of information that is provided regarding heat loss, space, utility cost, etc. Given the house is not built and I don't live there yet (currently residing on the East Coast), I'm sort of limited on what data I can provide. All I know is that my house is approximately 6000 sq ft with very good insulation, and a dual HVAC system.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Hata

3,863 square feet as stated on the floor plan is not close to
"approximately 6,000 sq. ft". No mention of a basement is given in the floor plan.

Overall dimensions are not provided but width can be determined (64 ft) roughly from 1/16" = 1 foot

Front of house faces North, South, East or West?

Plan information as provided is adequate for a study of equipment sizing
and comparison of energy costs. based on my equipment selections and Duke Energy Ohio rates.

[dan sw fl]

.. I have PDF of the basic floor plan ...
Is this enough for an estimate?

Yes, for a rough estimate.
Savings of $547 per year with 2-stage 3-ton (second level)
& 4-ton ( basement & first floor) heat pumps compared to
91&#37; furnace and straight A/C
for ~6,200 square feet using the basic floor plan.

Window U-value = -0.4
$0.10 / kwHr
$1.35 / Therm

Will gas rate increase significantly more than electric?

____ ____ ____ ____ Electric ______ Gas ___ Total
______ ___ ___ __ ___ kwHr ___ __ __ therm
____ ____ ____ ____ ____ $0.10 ____ $1.35
1 Heating Furnace 91% 1136 __ $114 ... 620 $837
___Heating Furnace 91% 2752 __ $275 ... 822 $1,110
___ ____ ____ ____
____ Cooling A/C 2.5 Ton 2339 __ $234
____ Cooling A/C 4 - Ton 3222 __ $322
____ ____ ____ Total __ 9449 __ $945 ... 1442 $1,947 ___ $2,892
____ ____ ____ ____ ____
____ ____ ____ ____ ____
2 Heating Furnace 91% 7102 __ $710 ... 42 $57
___Heating Furnace 91% 10108 __ $1,011 ... __ 26 __ $35
____ ____ ____ ____ ____
____ Cooling A/C 3.0 Ton 2196 __ $220
____ Cooling A/C 4 - Ton 3123 __ $312
____ ____ ____ Total __ 22529 __ $2,253 68 $92 ___ $2,345
____ ____ ____ ____ ____
____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ___ ____ ____ ____ ___ $547

1 ____ ____ ____ ____ __ $389 $1,947 ___ $2,336
2 ____ ____ ____ ____ __ $1,721 $92 ___ $1,813 $523

[hata]

Dan,
I sent you some updated information to your private email so it may change somethings. Separately.... does the comparison to a 91&#37; furnace matter? Ours will be 96% (so Carrier says...). Don't know if the numbers change much with the additional information I sent you but if it doesn't... then $547 a year probably won't justfiy the $3800 upcharge when you take into account the amoritization of the mortgage at 6%. With a conservative increase in energy at 3% a year, it won't pay out for almost 20 years....

I'll wait and see if there's any change with what I sent you, but if it stays approximately the same, you helped me make my decision. I can't thank you enough!
P.S. Sorry, not sure what all those numbers mean? Also, regarding the "tons" of usage you put in, is that based on usage and not the load capacity of the heat pumps? The heat pumps I will be getting are identical (Carrier 25HCA3).

hata

[dan sw fl]

Don't know if the numbers change much with the additional information I sent you but if it doesn't... then $547 a year probably won't justfiy the $3800 upcharge when you take into account the amoritization of the mortgage at 6&#37;. With a conservative increase in energy at 3% a year, it won't pay out for almost 20 years....

, but if it stays approximately the same, you helped me make my decision.
I can't thank you enough!

Carrier 25HCA3 _ _ _ hata

___ Interest _______ Energy
___ 1.06 __________ 1.03
Yr. Extra Balance Savings
1 _ $3,800 $3,253 547.00
2 _ $3,448 $2,885 563.41
3 _ $3,058 $2,478 580.31
4 _ $2,626 $2,028 597.72
5 _ $2,150 $1,535 615.65
6 _ $1,627 $992 634.12
7 _ $1,052 $399 653.15
8 _ $423 $(250) 672.74

7 + year payback is relatively good considering
better equipment and more Comfort.

Size is not provided by the incomplete
Carrier series model number 25HCA3 xxx

[Freezeking2000]

___ Interest _______ Energy
___ 1.06 __________ 1.03
Yr. Extra Balance Savings
1 _ $3,800 $3,253 547.00
2 _ $3,448 $2,885 563.41
3 _ $3,058 $2,478 580.31
4 _ $2,626 $2,028 597.72
5 _ $2,150 $1,535 615.65
6 _ $1,627 $992 634.12
7 _ $1,052 $399 653.15
8 _ $423 $(250) 672.74

7 + year payback is relatively good considering
better equipment and more Comfort.

Size is not provided by the incomplete
Carrier series model number 25HCA3 xxx

I believe I would have to upgrade, 7 years is not very long. Also I would not assume a small electric or gas rate increase.

[hata]

___ Interest _______ Energy
___ 1.06 __________ 1.03
Yr. Extra Balance Savings
1 _ $3,800 $3,253 547.00
2 _ $3,448 $2,885 563.41
3 _ $3,058 $2,478 580.31
4 _ $2,626 $2,028 597.72
5 _ $2,150 $1,535 615.65
6 _ $1,627 $992 634.12
7 _ $1,052 $399 653.15
8 _ $423 $(250) 672.74



Hi Dan,
I did make a mistake in my calculations but I still get 9-10 years, which sounds about break even given longevity. Here's my numbers assuming 3% energy increase a year.
Interest is shown annually based no 6% interest on 30 yr fixed rate
Cost is Heat pump cost + interest
Balance is Cost-energy savings
Year___Interest Cost Savings Balance
1______ $227 $4,027 $547 $3,480
2______ $224 $3,704 $563 $3,141
3______ $221 $3,362 $580 $2,782
4______ $218 $2,999 $597 $2,402
5______ $214 $2,616 $615 $2,001
6______ $210 $2,212 $634 $1,578
7______ $207 $1,784 $653 $1,132
8______ $202 $1,334 $672 $662
9______ $198 $860 $692 $168
10_____ $193 $361 $713 $(352)

Ah.... never an easy choice. However, thank you thank you thank you so much for all your help, I really appreciate it.:)

[dan sw fl]

I did make a mistake in my calculations but I still get 9-10 years, which sounds about break even given longevity. Here's my numbers assuming 3% energy increase a year.

8______ $202 $1,334 $672 $662
9______ $198 $860 $692 $168
10_____ $193 $361 $713 $(352)

Ah.... never an easy choice.

You have a relatively accurate basis to make an equipment selection based on equipment performance and the applicable Cincinnati energy rates.

I am glad you have the persistence to develop and
evaluate your options for heat pumps and dual fuel systems.

Generally, 16 SEER equipment ( $62) provides ~20% less
operating costs than 13 SEER ( $51)
http://www.residential.carrier.com/knowledge/efficiency/ratings.shtml