hard start kit

[blackbird]

let see if my college here can help me out..had a call over the weekend, found compressor not being able to start, lock rotor amps on compressor, then going out on internal overload.. fixed office, oil smells like a burn-out, burning my hand where oil got onto it..single phase V, oil looks also like copper plating happened!. unit a a serious restriction, by previous tech.he cleared then put back on line, and restriction returned. he shut off, and front rated service valves. compressor 1.5 years old. under warranty. i condemned the compressor, and he was on site on another unit, they had him look at it again, he got it going with his hard start kit. i m looking like a dumb bunny, when i got the news..
i have learned that there is a problem when lock rotor amps happens to a once already good ruining compressor, because of damage caused by a serious operating condition! system contamination come into play also. compressor life becomes shorten. replacement sooner or later, and probably sooner. are you really doing the customer a service if later replacement requires a clean up due the the contamination cause by the previous issue and system is under warranty.

lets see, new compressor fresh new oil, clean system, fresh new start for system.hopefully a longer, better performing system.
he looks like the hero. but i disagree. hard start kits belong on factory installed with txv, that need the starting torque. and not on compressors that failed. non txv type.
also can you test a hard start kit to see if it is ok.
OK give it to me, i can take it. be honest!

[the dangling wrangler]

What caused these restrictions? Did he replace the driers?Every now and then you get a lemon . I'd be more worried about the restrictions than installing a start kit.

[lynn comstock]

A restriction can cause excessive discharge tempertatures that break down the oil and refrigerant can become acidic, even though the compressor motor in not yet burned out. The failed compressor is coming. I wonder how he cleared the restriction? The underlying problem may be non condensibles or high condensing temperatures coupled with low evaporating pressures. Measuring the discharge temperatures would tell a lot. Explain it in writing as best you can to the customer. Time is on your side.

Next time try to start the compressor with a HS capacitor. But analyze the system and tell the customer IN WRITING that this only gets it working and there are OTHER SERIOUS PROBLEMS to address and that you recommend a replacement compressor, etc.
Lynn

[indytech]

If it's a carrier or Bryant it may need a hard start kit. they have hard shut off and can cause problems.

[blackbird]

its not a lemon, and yes it is a carrier, and he finally put a drier in i only hear that he did, and i watched him put a hard start on the one previous, and i don't think he used a drier, i can almost bet he didn't use a drier on any before that too,. and yes i agree that failure is coming, to every one of those compressors that seen a serious restriction with no low pressure cut out.and it maybe cost the customer more money if it they fail after warranty.
i also learned that if you reverse run and start that it would reverse the rotation,then quickly put it back correctly.ever hear of that one, if its true a little food for though!
i will give this guy, some credit he did get it going, but at my reputation, the customer was going to let us do the change-out labor only.
some mechanics make it a cut throat situation, i usually give a little more respect then that to my fellow tradesmen.
and yes i will follow up with a letter to the owner.
and this was a job that i was helping out a friend who has his own business also. i personally have 16 years. what else can i say about it.
respectfully..

[the dangling wrangler]

Unless you're self-employed,it's not in your best intrest to send that customer a follow up letter.

[Kevin O'Neill]

You test a true hard start kit by making sure the start relay contacts close when power is off, that the start capacitor is ON & has proper MFDs, that there is no current through the start cap when the compressor is running (Start relay contacts open) and make sure there is a bleed resistor across the start capacitor.

[subcooled_]

I've never heard of being able to reverse rotation on a single phase compressor. On a three phase you can simply switch any two leads.

[mark beiser]

I've never heard of being able to reverse rotation on a single phase compressor. On a three phase you can simply switch any two leads.

Reverse wiring for run and start so the run cap is in the circuit with the run winding instead of the start winding.
This will make the compressor start backwards, but you can only run it like that for a couple of seconds because the start windings can't handle the current.

[Mr Bill]

Reverse wiring for run and start so the run cap is in the circuit with the run winding instead of the start winding.
This will make the compressor start backwards, but you can only run it like that for a couple of seconds because the start windings can't handle the current.

Mark, are you pretty sure this will do it? The reason I ask is I had a guy in the supply house the other day tell me he had a Carrier 3-ton single phase right out of the box that was running backwards.
I told him I have never heard of a single phase run backwards so maybe it was and he should have checked the wiring, the start may have been on the run terminal, learn something new everyday. :eek:
He said he had them bring him out a new one.

[Kevin O'Neill]

A piston Compressor will work properly running either direction. A scrol will only work running one way, but how wouldyou know it was going backwards without cutting it open?

[blackbird]

hey thanks for all the replies, ill tell you this, i appreciated this site, I'm still learning, like AL Pacino said in sent of a women.... Ive been around whoahhh!!
but seriously ill handle it differently next time. like telling the customer that it now has caused major problems...in the system and compressor alike, instead of just saying its bad.cover your butt.. then the next guy going to have to undermine that,.... good luck.and remember the warranty, who will pay the total price then..most of the time i'am a shining star but this time i stubbled..its an art to keep it at its best, i'am moving forward.

[the dangling wrangler]

hey thanks for all the replies, ill tell you this, i appreciated this site, I'm still learning, like AL Pacino said in sent of a women.... Ive been around whoahhh!!
but seriously ill handle it differently next time. like telling the customer that it now has caused major problems...in the system and compressor alike, instead of just saying its bad.cover your butt.. then the next guy going to have to undermine that,.... good luck.and remember the warranty, who will pay the total price then..most of the time i'am a shining star but this time i stubbled..its an art to keep it at its best, i'am moving forward.
I'm hoping I'm mis-understanding you. Sometimes the less said, the better. What will the customer think about the installing company(if it was yours) if you tell them the install has caused major damage to their system? That's a can of worms best left closed. They'll never want to pay for anything you do to it .Excuse me if I mis-understood your reply.

[blackbird]

oh yes you have misunderstood me, iam the 3rd man 3rd company out there , they informed me of the original contractor who did the install. the second contractor was clearing the restriction, i watched the system get opened and the restriction cleared with no drier and a hard start kit installed, on a once good system that started without the h.s kit. i kept to myself, found the compressor as i stated. I'm a contractor- owner also helping a friend with his flooded calls. and yes if it was your company i was representing, i would disclose the critical disclaimer, so as a mechanic of yours, or a friend to you i would not make you look like a flyby night company..oh let me say this i didn't say enough to put the integrity in tack for those i represent..

respectfully..

[browntigerus]

I've never heard of being able to reverse rotation on a single phase compressor. On a three phase you can simply switch any two leads.

This is basics of EE102

One of the advantages of PSC motors that they could be easily reversed by flipping polarity of start winding ( or run winding, but not both). They are designed as reversible.

Just because start winding is made of smaller gage wire, and less twists doesn't mean that motor will burn down if polarity is reversed. ( and it will not if load is the same in each direction )

>Reverse wiring for run and start so the run cap is in the circuit with the run winding instead of the start winding.

Ouch, start winding require larger cap. Run winding cap is smaller.
Installing larger cap on run winding make motor work harder. 1/3 hp motor will work like 1/2 hp etc. My roommate's group did this in the lab, and non thermally protected motor blew-up.

[oldertech]

let see if my college here can help me out..had a call over the weekend, found compressor not being able to start, lock rotor amps on compressor, then going out on internal overload.. fixed office, oil smells like a burn-out, burning my hand where oil got onto it..single phase V, oil looks also like copper plating happened!. unit a a serious restriction, by previous tech.he cleared then put back on line, and restriction returned. he shut off, and front rated service valves. compressor 1.5 years old. under warranty. i condemned the compressor, and he was on site on another unit, they had him look at it again, he got it going with his hard start kit. i m looking like a dumb bunny, when i got the news..
i have learned that there is a problem when lock rotor amps happens to a once already good ruining compressor, because of damage caused by a serious operating condition! system contamination come into play also. compressor life becomes shorten. replacement sooner or later, and probably sooner. are you really doing the customer a service if later replacement requires a clean up due the the contamination cause by the previous issue and system is under warranty.

lets see, new compressor fresh new oil, clean system, fresh new start for system.hopefully a longer, better performing system.
he looks like the hero. but i disagree. hard start kits belong on factory installed with txv, that need the starting torque. and not on compressors that failed. non txv type.
also can you test a hard start kit to see if it is ok.
OK give it to me, i can take it. be honest!


Don't sweat it. There's a big difference between getting a system running and making it a good reliable running system.

Hard starts are never bad for a system. They are beneficial to any system, but required in a system with a hard shutoff txv or liquid line shutoff and a reciprocating compressor.

[blackbird]

older tech, yes i get it. iam not sweating it anymore, learn a valuable lesson..i like your saying in your profile, fix it right the first time.. thats all.. taking what i learn here to a higher level i believe, like txv require subcooling charge, cap tube, superheat, just a few Tobit's of some good stuff we benefit form here.
getting some of the techs i hang=out with learn form what i have apply from this site, and yea they been doing it there way that they thought was the right way. only the best interest involved.just food for thought.. hey, iam learning all the time.and i have took my years of experience to a higher level form the mechanic/others here..
respectfully

[oldertech]

older tech, yes i get it. iam not sweating it anymore, learn a valuable lesson..i like your saying in your profile, fix it right the first time.. thats all.. taking what i learn here to a higher level i believe, like txv require subcooling charge, cap tube, superheat, just a few Tobit's of some good stuff we benefit form here.
getting some of the techs i hang=out with learn form what i have apply from this site, and yea they been doing it there way that they thought was the right way. only the best interest involved.just food for thought.. hey, iam learning all the time.and i have took my years of experience to a higher level form the mechanic/others here..
respectfully

good for you.
It's a tough balancing act to satisfy you, your customer, your boss, the law, ethics, etc. and make money too.