Hello all - Air-Handler/Heat Pump

[RyanHughes]

Hello all,

I'm new to these forums but I've been interested in HVAC for quite sometime. Now it comes time to turn my attention to myself once again.

Problem:
We had an old Bryant heat pump system. When the outdoor unit starting leaking, etc., we paired it with a Goodman indoor unit. This was about seven years ago or so. Over the course of the life of the Goodman indoor unit, we had installed a Payne heat pump outdoor unit which is now about three years old. The inside unit now has a supposedly restricted evaporator coil and needs a new heating package. We were originally just going to install an air-handler but when the technician tried to put more freon in the outdoor unit is when the technician actually realized we had the evaporator coil issue. So anyway, moving on, a sales representative came to our house and informed us that we really needed to replace both the indoor and the outdoor unit to get maximum efficiency and to prevent any future damage due to mismatching coils. We had heard this, but we originally just seemed to leave this fact aside (until it came back to affect us?).

The Question:
We should go ahead and replace both systems, correct? This is somewhat upsetting as the heat pump is three years old. If we did go this route, what type of system would you recommend? We were told about the Carrier Performance Series and Infinity Series (both of which I suppose are what the company sells the most). I've also heard good things about Trane, and I've been reading into them further. I believe the outdoor unit is 3.5 tons, but I do not have any serial numbers, etc. Would anyone have any recommended systems they could be willing to share with us, particularly from Trane? I understand that variable speed air-handlers are a good way to go.

Thanks very much in advance!

[Kevin O'Neill]

From your equipment selections, it looks like you buy primarily on price. You also jump brands. Why? You may be able to match a new indoor unit to the existing outdoor unit if you go with a Payne indoor unit. Have your contractor check if a legitimate match is available. I am betting your outdoor unit is 10 SEER though. With the way energy prices are going it may be worth your while to upgrade to better, more efficient equipment.

Make sure the contractor does a Manual J load calculation before picking the equipment.

Not busting your chops, just making observations.

[RyanHughes]

From your equipment selections, it looks like you buy primarily on price. You also jump brands. Why? You may be able to match a new indoor unit to the existing outdoor unit if you go with a Payne indoor unit. Have your contractor check if a legitimate match is available. I am betting your outdoor unit is 10 SEER though. With the way energy prices are going it may be worth your while to upgrade to better, more efficient equipment.

Make sure the contractor does a Manual J load calculation before picking the equipment.

Not busting your chops, just making observations.

Thanks. As far as jumping brands goes, I guess it is because the contractor that put both units in did not seem to pay much attention to the matching systems idea. If I remember correctly, both of these systems were recommended by the contractor based on our budget. I totally agree that it would be most worthwhile to match brands from here on out. The contractor said there was no matching Payne system. Any suggestions on new, matching systems?

[Kevin O'Neill]

I have Lennox in my house. My first Lennox heat pump lasted 18 years.

Variable Speed is the way to go for indoor units. Trane, Carrier, American Standard, York, Rheem/Ruud make good stuff too. But the installation is even more important. If the same contractor put in both of your units without trying to match better, I would recommend getting another opinion.

Where are you located? What Climate? What kind of life style? More information would get you better answers.

[Sam-the-man]

you SHOULD be able to find a payne/bryant/carrier air handler to match up with that heat pump, but as was said before, it may not be in your best interest to do so. If you've got issues with that evap coil you may have issues with the system refrigerant that could cause you headaches down the road. On the other hand, a more efficient system may not pay you back if you aren't living in the house long enough. Saving money on previous equipment replacements may have helped get you into this situation, but throwing a lot of money at the problem with new expensive equipment isn't the thing to do right now. You'd be best served by finding an honest, qualified contractor to come to your house and evaluate your system and your needs.
As far as systems go, Carrier Infinity or Trane XL series would be the ones I consider, but you have to be sure your duct system is properly sized for your equipment and your home, and that your equipment is properly sized for your cooling load. If you don't do those things then you might as well just patch up the system you've got.

[RyanHughes]

Thank you. This is a different company now than who installed both of the other systems. I have another guy coming out on Saturday who can give me a second opinion. Any good reasons to choose Carrier over Trane or Trane over Carrier? Thanks again. I'm located in a Maryland suburb area. The house is pretty active, and we seem to have some dust and warm and cool spots. Please let me know if you need any more information.

[Sam-the-man]

Carrier or Trane? Caddilac or Lincoln? Either one is good. Both top manufacturers, both have some dealers that are hacks or crooks. Depends on the guys actually intalling the components, they are the ones that build the systems. Safest way to go is to find somebody who will at least perform a manual J calc and a manual D calc to size your equipment and ducts properly. Installers should follow the iinstructions provided with the equipment. They should also be able to measure the performance of the system at start-up and provide you with the data showing that they have done so. Also, if planning to be in the house more than just a few years, a ten year p+l warranty is available from the manufacturer but not always offered by the dealer. I know the Trane 10yr extended warrarnty is a great value considering what equipment and repairs can cost, never dealt with any other manuf's entended warr though.

[BigJon3475]

Check into tax credits for going to higher SEER systems...I think it comes out to $300 depending on your application...but everything helps right?
Nothing stops a Trane??

From what I understand they use the best Materials to build their product....But you pay for it (trane) just as in any other market place....i.e...Lexus....Mercedes...

I think the installer is more important than the equip. properly installed and you should be happy with whatever brand....Same org. rates them all operating conditions...kinda like a Under writer laboratory.

[beenthere]

Check into tax credits for going to higher SEER systems...I think it comes out to $300 depending on your application...but everything helps right?
Nothing stops a Trane??

.

Most brands only have 1 model heatpump that qualifies for the tax credit.
Its always the most expensive one.
And it aways cost more to upgrade to that model, then what the tax credit is.

[BigJon3475]

Guess it would depend on what SEER you go to huh? You'd have to look at your overall cost to heating and cooling the house and then decide How much you would save over the long run...Most systems seem to pay for themselves before the warranty period is out or real close to it again it all depends on your situation and where you live and what it cost you for your comfort level. Look at it from as many helping or selling points as possible. $300 tax credit is worth asking about even if it doesn't apply to your situation. It's probably only $20 back on your taxes unless it moves you into a lower tax bracket.

[Kevin O'Neill]

It is a tax CREDIT, not a DEDUCTION. The $300.00 comes directly off your taxes, not off your taxable incime.

[Swampfox]

The inside unit now has a supposedly restricted evaporator coil and needs a new heating package. We were originally just going to install an air-handler but when the technician tried to put more freon in the outdoor unit is when the technician actually realized we had the evaporator coil issue.

sounds like you had a rookie tech, or at least one thats not very good at troubleshooting/repairs, he would have realized the issue before trying to add refrigerant otherwise, get a qualified tech out there to give you a second opinion, that should be an easy repair

[BigJon3475]

It is a tax CREDIT, not a DEDUCTION. The $300.00 comes directly off your taxes, not off your taxable incime.


Okay so if you owe $3000 in taxes for your income bracket now you only owe $2700...heres more info from the gov.

http://www.energy.gov/taxbreaks.htm


"Improvements must be installed in or on the taxpayer’s principal residence in the United States. Home improvement tax credits apply for improvements made between January 1, 2006 and December 31, 2007."

[RyanHughes]

sounds like you had a rookie tech, or at least one thats not very good at troubleshooting/repairs, he would have realized the issue before trying to add refrigerant otherwise, get a qualified tech out there to give you a second opinion, that should be an easy repair

This is a company that is very well known in the Maryland-Virginia-Washington, D.C. area, very experienced, and the operator of a university for this stuff. We decided to give these guys another try since we had good luck with them in the past. We switched due to being friends with someone else in the business, but since they did not really tell us about matching everything up right, etc. we decided to call the other company. Besides, who can tell if there is a restriction inside of a coil anyway? Anyway I thank you all for the help and I look forward to getting a second opinion on Saturday.

[beenthere]

Okay so if you owe $3000 in taxes for your income bracket now you only owe $2700...heres more info from the gov.




Your example is showing a tax deduction, not a credit.

A tax credit. EG: your gross W2 taxable income is $30,000.00, you fill out the credit paper work, and owe the same amount of taxes, as some one that has a W2 of $29,700.00

[Sam-the-man]

This is a company that is very well known in the Maryland-Virginia-Washington, D.C. area, very experienced, and the operator of a university for this stuff. We decided to give these guys another try since we had good luck with them in the past. We switched due to being friends with someone else in the business, but since they did not really tell us about matching everything up right, etc. we decided to call the other company. Besides, who can tell if there is a restriction inside of a coil anyway? Anyway I thank you all for the help and I look forward to getting a second opinion on Saturday.


Somebody who knew how it worked would be able to tell you if there is a restriction, and they would be able to show you test data to back up their claim. If your guy tells you there is a restriction in the evap coil, he should be able to show you HARD data that proves the restriction, if he is unable to do that then he is not sure but willing to spend YOUR money to find out.

[BigJon3475]

Your example is showing a tax deduction, not a credit.

A tax credit. EG: your gross W2 taxable income is $30,000.00, you fill out the credit paper work, and owe the same amount of taxes, as some one that has a W2 of $29,700.00

"About Tax Credits
A tax credit is generally more valuable than an equivalent tax deduction because a tax credit reduces tax dollar-for-dollar, while a deduction only removes a percentage of the tax that is owed. Beginning in tax year 2006, consumers will be able to itemize purchases on their federal income tax form, which will lower the total amount of tax they owe the government."

http://www.energy.gov/taxbreaks.htm

Is that not what that says? If you owe $3,000 in taxes for your income bracket now you only owe $2700 how is that different? Just curious
Sorry to get off topic.

[RyanHughes]

Somebody who knew how it worked would be able to tell you if there is a restriction, and they would be able to show you test data to back up their claim. If your guy tells you there is a restriction in the evap coil, he should be able to show you HARD data that proves the restriction, if he is unable to do that then he is not sure but willing to spend YOUR money to find out.

It makes sense, though, we've been having to put more refrigerant in the system every year or so. Either way, I think a new complete, matched system would suit us well.

[BigJon3475]

I think you'd be happy with a new matched system......Putting refrigerant in every year means you have a leak that should be addressed or your tech is a gas and go kinda guy...for future reference

[Sam-the-man]

It makes sense, though, we've been having to put more refrigerant in the system every year or so. Either way, I think a new complete, matched system would suit us well.

more refrigerant would not help a restriction. sounds like these guys gaining valuable experience by working on your system. Paid training if you will. Not only would a new matched system be a good idea, but a new contractor would be a good idea as well. Either something is being lost in communication between the time it comes out of the tech's mouth and it's gets posted here, or he doesn't know what he's doing.

[RyanHughes]

Yes, we have since changed contractors. We had a contractor who would come out and put refrigerant in for us since we were friends with the owner, until it happened this year, and we decided to just get to the bottom of the problem. We also had a problem with our indoor unit that would not shot off but go to a lower speed rather.

When we called the new provider, they were very professional and came out and addressed the problems as a shortage (bad heating package coil was shorting system) and we had a restricted coil. They explained that mismatching was a problem and we were only making it worse for our system. He explained into detail about the efficiency, etc.

After this we realized that the original contractor may not be the people we want to use (they are more in the plumbing field I guess), and here we are. Another man is coming tomorrow who was recommended to us by a friend. We will see his recommendations. He sounded great on the phone.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Sam-the-man]

best of luck ryan, let us know how it works out

[RyanHughes]

Thanks.

Just an update:

I spoke with a man today who I felt was very considerate and honest with us. He proposed us either going with a Bryant 10 SEER indoor unit or a whole new Bryant 13 SEER heat pump system with a variable speed indoor unit. Prices seemed reasonable for both. We are still going to have to make a decision. I personally think the later of the two options would be best, but we will have to see what we can manage to do.