Ok, its installed, now what?

[jasruby79]

I have a new furnace, humidifier, indoor coil, electronic filter, outdoor unit. The works. I have never in my life had the luxury of central air. (Where I live in Colorado and we have practically no humidity and there will only be maybe 3 days that even hit 99+ this entire summer. )

So...I understand the forums policy on DIY but how can I check to make sure my install is running correctly? Its going to be a good month before we have a 90 degree day and I really want to "test this baby out".

For example...the liquid line feels warm to the touch but not as hot as my neighbors unit. Can I set the thermostat in front of a register and record a temp..if so how cold should it be? Can I take pictures of the unit and post them, not really sure you can tell much just by pics?

I have done quite a bit of reading around these forums and looked through the walls of "shame and fame". But I need advice on how a homeowner, not a DIY-er could check to verify things are good to go before it gets hot and I am fighting with my installer to come fix what could've been fixed already.

Yes, I know there are going to be those who say to call my installer...and I do have faith that they did a good job, but I just need to see for myself.

Thanks!

also..I was wondering since my unit has R410a, would that make the liquid line feel "not as warm" as one with R22? I just sure that line doesn't feel warm enough.

[BigJon3475]

Hand is not a calibrated tool. Pictures would be nice. Can't really tell you over the net if it's working how it should be. There are to many factors to know what it should be doing by a rule of thumb in my opinion. Does it cool the house?

[BaldLoonie]

You can take pictures and post them, we love that :D but be prepared to have the job nitpicked to death!

On a higher SEER unit, liquid line will be somewhat warm not hot like the lower SEER. Really without knowledge, gauges, digital temp probes, you really can't tell too much with feeling lines or testing air temps. You just have to hope you picked an installer who did the right job.

[hankmcneil]

Measure the temperature drop. (return air temp - supply air temp) and let us know.

[totaleclipse]

You would be suprised at what we can tell just by looking at a few pictures. You wouldnt be the first person to post pics of your new gear for all of us to see and comment on.

As for the liquid line temp, without an exact temp and a few other numbers, there is not much that we can tell you about how it is operating. There are several possiblitys for yours to feel cooler than your neighbors. I wouldnt be overly concerned about this.

As for the temp. of the air the thing is producing, this also has many variables and no one number is right in all instances. If you take a thermometer and measure the return air, then use the same thermometer to measure the supply air you should be around 18-20 degrees if there is low humidity in the home. If you have a hygrometer to measure the humidity at the return, you can post those numbers on here and we can give you a rough idea of whether or not you are within range.

Just out of curiosity, why are you questioning the install of the equipment? Are you just wanting to make sure, or did something happen during the install process to make you wonder?

[Shophound]

Your first warm day when you want air conditioning, get a cheap digital thermometer from the store and measure the temperature of the air emerging from a supply register that is the closest one to the air handler. Then measure a return grill that is the closest to the air handler. Subtract the higher from the lower number. This will only be a basic bare bones ballpark estimate of how your system is performing, but an average range is between 16-21 degrees, depending on indoor humidity.

Your first hot day will be your litmus test.

[jasruby79]

Ok...I will take some digital pics and you can critique it. I would love to hear some HONEST opinions. Unfortunately, I came across this website the day AFTER my install.

Can someone point me to some directions on how to go about posting pics on this forum?
THANKS!

[techace79]

oh boy

[davefr]

I just posted this in another thread. Once you're confident it's performing properly baseline the unit so you have a basis for future evaluation:

A homeowner should establish a performance baseline when the system is known to be functioning properly. (Typically after it's installed and checked out).

Measure temp at vent closest to the air handler, measure temp of return air, measure liquid and suction line temps at the air handler and do these measurements at several outdoor ambients. (preferably in 5 or 10 degree increments). Do this for both cooling and heating mode if it's a heat pump.

Now you have a rough baseline for future comparison. It won't be 100% accurate because there are other factors like RH and air flow but it'll give you a pretty good idea if your system has deviated significantly.

[BigJon3475]

Ok...I will take some digital pics and you can critique it. I would love to hear some HONEST opinions. Unfortunately, I came across this website the day AFTER my install.

Can someone point me to some directions on how to go about posting pics on this forum?
THANKS!

If you save the pics to your comp. You will then need a web host like photobucket.com to be able to post the pics. Once you have them saved in something like photobucket you can use the picture button in the message box when you go to post. It will popup asking for "please enter the URL of your image:" Or you can send them to my email address if thats to much trouble and I will post for you...It's up to you. A web host isn't a bad thing to have you'd be surprised how often you'll use it once you have it. Email is in my profile.

[miller-cold-filtered]

please post super heat, sub cool, high pressure and low pressure. picture of it would nice too.

[BigJon3475]

I just posted this in another thread. Once you're confident it's performing properly baseline the unit so you have a basis for future evaluation:

A homeowner should establish a performance baseline when the system is known to be functioning properly. (Typically after it's installed and checked out).

Measure temp at vent closest to the air handler, measure temp of return air, measure liquid and suction line temps at the air handler and do these measurements at several outdoor ambients. (preferably in 5 or 10 degree increments). Do this for both cooling and heating mode if it's a heat pump.

Now you have a rough baseline for future comparison. It won't be 100% accurate because there are other factors like RH and air flow but it'll give you a pretty good idea if your system has deviated significantly.

How is he going to measure the liquid and suction line temps accurately/consistently and why would that even matter if he doesn't have pressures?

If he was posting SC and SH I don't really think he would be asking us if it is going to work right. You'll have to get into how this is done and by the way this is the General Discussion Forum.

[miller-cold-filtered]

hey Bigjon3475,

i just thought about it and i realized that you make sense. if he knows sc and sh, pressure, and ambien temp, then most likely would not be looking for help. he probably be wondering what da hell is sc and sh and be lost about it.

[Shophound]

How is he going to measure the liquid and suction line temps accurately/consistently and why would that even matter if he doesn't have pressures?

If he was posting SC and SH I don't really think he would be asking us if it is going to work right. You'll have to get into how this is done and by the way this is the General Discussion Forum.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with a homeowner measuring supply and return temperatures. Even so it's not going to tell him a great deal. Discomfort will tell him a lot more...the system needs attention.

If residential installers performed post-install commissioning and left a copy of that data with the consumer, I don't know if that would deflect questions like these all that much, but it would establish a baseline, as davefr was suggesting. With that said, thorough performance evaluation after an install is only a benefit...to both installer and homeowner.

[BigJon3475]

I actually started taking all the measurements I am recording for each unit I have and keeping them on record...Not that it helps much here but it's a great practice to get into (kinda pointless when the systems I have are on their last leg and have been over or undercharged their whole life) I think it would be a good idea for him to have baselines.....I just think he will need to much equipment to get accurate readings. But if he's willing....I'm sure it's not a bad idea...Let's start with the EPA certification to open his system up with gages to get readings. I was just thinking he probably wanted a rule of thumb to check his system out.

[jasruby79]

This SH superheat and SC supercool are greek to me. I am going to just measure the temp at the register closest to the air handler and the return vent closest to the air handler and post them. Hopefully this will tell you PROS something.

Ok..here are some system pics. It has been hailing most of the afternoon so the outdoor pics are kinda rough. ALSO..in my defense I do want honest answers, but as I said I came across this site AFTER my install.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z286/jasruby79/IMG_0232.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z286/jasruby79/IMG_0233.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z286/jasruby79/IMG_0234.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z286/jasruby79/IMG_0235.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z286/jasruby79/IMG_0237.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z286/jasruby79/IMG_0238.jpg

ONCE AGAIN..THANKS.

[Shophound]

I actually started taking all the measurements I am recording for each unit I have and keeping them on record...Not that it helps much here but it's a great practice to get into (kinda pointless when the systems I have are on their last leg and have been over or undercharged their whole life)

If you extend your data gathering to performing capacity checks you can see for yourself just how well or poorly those systems are doing after you tweak on them. I have a tool on order that will make obtaining not only return wet bulb/dry bulb temps easy but also supply wet bulb/dry bulb temps. Having both of these and a psychrometric chart, and also knowing the actual airflow, you can calculate the actual capacity the system is performing at compared to its nominal capacity.

[BigJon3475]

I been reading up on my psychrometrics :) I would be interested to learn more about what you talk about Kemo Sabi?



To Original Poster.....It's laying on it's side :eek:


First thing I see is it's really close to that fence....I think minimum is 10" on the condensers we use but I have seen 12" on here also. Duct tape also looks like it's already coming off....No trap on the condensate drain line. Shut off for the gas line? And the installer missed a piece of backing for the Nashau Tape when cleaning up lol

[BaldLoonie]

How come you don't have an Amana outdoor unit to match your Amana indoor stuff? At least the coil should be the same brand as the A/C. Furnace doesn't have to be.

[davefr]

How is he going to measure the liquid and suction line temps accurately/consistently and why would that even matter if he doesn't have pressures?

If he was posting SC and SH I don't really think he would be asking us if it is going to work right. You'll have to get into how this is done and by the way this is the General Discussion Forum.

I said once he knows everything is performing properly he should baseline the system so he has a basis for future comparison. All he needs is an accurate thermometer.

I'm not advocating a HO do SC or SH measurements or take pressure readings.

For example if on the average 90 degree day he's getting 80 degree return temp and 65 degree output temp he should record that in a log along with other readings at various other ambients.

Now lets say that a few years from now he's questioning the performance of his sytem on a 90 degree day. He'll know approximatley how it should perform. If there's significant deviation from his recorded baseline then he'll know it's time for a service call.

By baselining a system's known good performance characteristics he won't have to guess as to whether or not it's performing correctly down the road.

There are plenty of times in the past that I thought my system might not be performing correctly. I simply referred to my log book and could get a pretty good idea whether or not it actually was.

This is not 100% accurate because airflow, RH and other factors enter into it but it's better then guessing.

[mayguy]

A couple of things.

-Not too wild about the flex going down into that vent on the a/c coil drain.
-Flue pipe is not hooked right at the elbow (Male elbow should be going into the pipe, Not pipe into elbow.
-No trap on gas line.
-Flex gas may not be ok in some area by code.
-Looks like the canvas is pulled to it's max.
-TXV build isn't at the 10/2 O'Clock.
-Outdoor unit too close to fence as other has stated.

Speaking of outdoor unit, what brand is that??

[BigJon3475]

No harm just a question...

[jasruby79]

How come you don't have an Amana outdoor unit to match your Amana indoor stuff? At least the coil should be the same brand as the A/C. Furnace doesn't have to be.


Like I said, I found this forum after my install. I questioned the contractor about the difference and he said that it was no big deal. I contacted Tempstar and even explained to them I was worried about warranty claims in the future...they said, "contact your installer...period." I called the installing company back and they said, its no big deal.

How is a homeowner supposed to argue this with the installer? I chose the middle quote. I chose the tempstar becuase its very very quite for the price I paid, it has onboard diagnostic and my installer talked me into being "green" and chosing the 410a. I saw them pull a very long vacuum with some sort of digital equipment. The installer kept saying..I have to wait until it reads 500 then we can start it up. (WTF..500?)

[davefr]

P.S. That installation looks decent to me. It's definately not "hack" quality. The only thing I noticed is lack of a P trap in the condensate line. (however maybe it's further downstream).

I'm not a fan of tape but it could be a lot worse.

If you're in Colorado you should have pump ups for snow but did you say this is A/C or a heat pump?

It looks like you have 6" clearance on 2 sides of the corner. That's probably OK but it depends on the manufacturer's guidelines.

I'll warn you now that this forum can be very critical of installation images. It's a game of finding as many faults as possible. However few installations are perfect and this one looks OK.

[BigJon3475]

WTF 500?

Thats a Micrometer Reading....Thats a good thing....

[jasruby79]

A couple of things.

-Not too wild about the flex going down into that vent on the a/c coil drain.
-Flue pipe is not hooked right at the elbow (Male elbow should be going into the pipe, Not pipe into elbow.
-No trap on gas line.
-Flex gas may not be ok in some area by code.
-Looks like the canvas is pulled to it's max.
-TXV build isn't at the 10/2 O'Clock.
-Outdoor unit too close to fence as other has stated.

Speaking of outdoor unit, what brand is that??


Which of these items are worth calling the installer back to repair?

[jasruby79]

P.S. That installation looks decent to me. It's definately not "hack" quality. The only thing I noticed is lack of a P trap in the condensate line. (however maybe it's further downstream).

I'm not a fan of tape but it could be a lot worse.

If you're in Colorado you should have pump ups for snow but did you say this is A/C or a heat pump?

It looks like you have 6" clearance on 2 sides of the corner. That's probably OK but it depends on the manufacturer's guidelines.

I'll warn you now that this forum can be very critical of installation images. It's a game of finding as many faults as possible. However few installations are perfect and this one looks OK.

#1. I am glad it is not "hack quality" I had them come back to fix a few things already.

#2. Tape? OH MY ..this is a long story...The first time they came for the install...they put this silver crap everywhere. It was some kind of silicone or caulk. They got it everywhere. I mean the humidifier, all over the furnace and the coil was the worst. I called the company and explained to the receptionist my issues with the install (which also included the LACK of filter-drier and this silver silicone everywhere.) They sent someone out right away. They replaced
the indoor coil with another coil completely because of the silicone everywhere and also because: Apparently because of the altitude of Colorado, you should have an indoor coil .5 tons larger than the outdoor unit is rated. (Reasoning they gave was beyond "HO" as you call it understanding, something about my high altitude and air pressures.)

ALSO..this is A/C not HP. Although after reading these forums I wish I would have at least looked into an HP...but NOT EVEN SUGGESTED BY SALESPERSON!

Actually to be honest, the company came highly recommended...and no offense to the salespeople on this site, but at the company I used I WOULD MUCH RATHER TALK TO THE INSTALLER, THE REPAIR TECHS EVEN THE RECEPTIONIST THAN THE SALESPERSON.

[BigJon3475]

Probably has something to do with the same reason water boils at a lowers temp in higher altitudes...;)


HP's aren't all that efficient in lower temps that I would imagine CO gets. As temps drop so does it's efficiency. It's probably not used much in your area and probably not even an idea.....that's my guess.

[jasruby79]

Final temp readings...

Outdoor temp: 62.6 degrees farenheit
Indoor Room Temp (Not Thermostat but 8 feet from tstat): 69.4
Thermostat Room Temp: 69
Thermostat Set: COOL MODE 64
Temp at return closest to air handler: 68.3
Temp at vent closest to air handler: 47.4

IS THERE A COLD OUTSIDE TEMP THAT I SHOULD NOT RUN MY A/C UNIT? IF SO WHAT TEMP?

Also, when it is 95 outside, should the temp differences remain the same or does the outside ambient temperature affect the temp difference of the through the vent? I am thinking so. I don't see it possible for outside temp to be 95 and temp at vent to be 47.4

Do you all know what OCD is? I think I have OCD A/C!!!!!

[BigJon3475]

You barely have any load on the system.....you shouldn't run it like that. It is designed to run @ 95 outside and 80 inside. When you get down to the temps your at the condenser is acting very efficiently and the evaporator isn't absorbing enough heat to really evaporate the refrigerant. I could be wrong but this isn't an ideal operating condition. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in on what ill effects this might have if any....

OCD isn't a bad thing until it gets in the way. Right now wanting to know your system is a "good idea"

[Shophound]

Final temp readings...

Outdoor temp: 62.6 degrees farenheit
Indoor Room Temp (Not Thermostat but 8 feet from tstat): 69.4
Thermostat Room Temp: 69
Thermostat Set: COOL MODE 64
Temp at return closest to air handler: 68.3
Temp at vent closest to air handler: 47.4

IS THERE A COLD OUTSIDE TEMP THAT I SHOULD NOT RUN MY A/C UNIT? IF SO WHAT TEMP?

Also, when it is 95 outside, should the temp differences remain the same or does the outside ambient temperature affect the temp difference of the through the vent? I am thinking so. I don't see it possible for outside temp to be 95 and temp at vent to be 47.4

Do you all know what OCD is? I think I have OCD A/C!!!!!

62 degrees outdoor is not recommended for running an a/c unit unless it has a low ambient operation kit installed.

You won't see register temperatures of 47 degrees on a 95 degree day outside. On such a day your indoor heat load will be a lot higher, and your outdoor unit must reject heat into a hotter ambient condition. This and more will affect supply register temperatures. If you have attic ductwork, you will experience a rise in temperature between where it left the cooling coil and where it enters the room.

You don't have to wait for it to be 95 degrees outside to see if your system is doing well. From 85 degrees on up you can retake the readings you got tonight and record supply air temperatures accordingly. 85 on up will assure a better heat load is on the evaporator.

[Shophound]

I been reading up on my psychrometrics :) I would be interested to learn more about what you talk about Kemo Sabi?


I'll try and pick this thread up in the morning and we'll talk psychro talk then. Me pooped. Goodnight, all.

[beenthere]

The unit is ARI rated at 95OD, and 80ID.
Its designed to work at many other varing temps.

[BaldLoonie]

Tempstar has a warranty where if the compressor fails in so many years, they hand you a whole new unit. But that warranty is void on a mismatched coil.

[jasruby79]

Tempstar has a warranty where if the compressor fails in so many years, they hand you a whole new unit. But that warranty is void on a mismatched coil.

This is probably the main reason I am questioning my install. I did read about the "No-Hassle Replacement". I questioned the mismatch with my contractor and they told me that it didn't affect this warranty. I tried to contact tempstar, but they only told me to refer any warranty questions to my installer. I read through the tempstar fine print and it says the coil and the outdoor unit have to have an ARI rating. Under another post I have been to the ARI site, but not its not really "H.O." friendly.
The contractor told me I should contact them for any warranty work anyways. Also, contractor has good BBB rating and has been in business for many years in my area.

[jasruby79]

The unit is ARI rated at 95OD, and 80ID.
Its designed to work at many other varing temps.

huh?

[Mr Bill]

Ok, its installed, now what?

Hey you kick back and enjoy it now thats my personal advise. :D

[BigJon3475]

huh?

He's saying it was designed to be able to work @ those conditions. That doesn't mean it doesn't work at others though....But when it was as cool as you had it inside on the previous temp. readings and as cool as it was outside. The system really isn't transferring enough heat to work properly. In those conditions your lucky to have the ref. evaporated by the time it gets back to the condenser it's most likely sat. vapor going back into the condenser...there are some other factors that would help to know for sure. I'm with MrBill kick back and enjoy...If they used a micrometer and have a good BBB rating and have been in business a long time in your area I don't think your OCD needs to kick in...IMO

[beenthere]

ARI conditions are rating conditions. Not design conditions.
So a 3 ton A/C has to remove x btu's at ARI's 95OD temp, and 80ID temp.
At temps other then those, it may remove more or less btu's.
So if its cool outside and inside, it may be removing 42,000 btu's.
If its 115 outside, and 68 inside it may only be removing 20,000 btu's.


Some times people confuse ARI rating conditions, with design conditions.
They are 2 different things.