Reducing humidity in a WIB

[wannafreeze]

A friend of mine called me the other day with this question.He says "somebody oversized the system for this wine cooler and it's running too short and it's too humid.How can I reduce the capacity of the evap?etc.."
I forgot the size of the WIB in question.No other detail..
Do you think if he installed smaller fan blades than made sure compressor is not being flooded (adjusting the TXV)and added more defrost times he would solve the problem?
Also what is the issue in a wine cooler with humidity?

[skpkey9]

Humidity in a wine room 2 problems one is with the corks and two is mold issues. what you or he can do about it is install a speed control on the evap motor to slow the RPMs. That should take care of the problem. Also no on the smaller fan blades or defrosts,. will not be needed

[Hank Hill]

My experience with humidity control(computer rooms) is that it almost always requires sometype of reheat. By the time you get the humidity down the temp is almost always too cold, or so it seems.

I need a shrug, as in shruggung shoulders emoticon:)

[razorback]

You'll need to start from scratch. Do a load calc and compare with the existing system. If it's way oversized, you'll probably have to replace the whole system. If it's borderline oversize, you might be able to install a smaller TXV or install a smaller compressor to allow the unit to run longer. Anytime you start modifying a system other problems can arise; oil return, short cycling, etc.
Why didn't he call you first? If he can pay someone to do it wrong, he ought to be able to pay you to do it right.

[dirtyboy103us]

wanna frezze here is a link to some questions you have

http://www.vinesugar.com/education/faq.php?c=Storage%20and%20Cellars


you don't want to dry this area do you thats not recomended for the corks
and temp swings should be minimal

[skpkey9]

never seen a re-heat on a wine room, wrong app.
as for using speed control that is how you control humidity in a wine room. I have several unit running that way for many years with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of wine. With no issues to date. all happy customers

[skpkey9]

tempeture swing 4*

[air2spare]

what type of equipment do you like? how do you deal with evaporator fan noise when customer complains? and what humidity level do you deem as normal for wine room? sorry for so many questions but thanks in advance

[dirtyboy103us]

Aren't wine cellars only necessary for the finest, expensive wines?[
No. All wines continue to develop in the bottle. Whether you spent $5 or $50 on a bottle of wine, proper storage is necessary to preserve the qualities that led you to buy that wine in the first place, even if you plan to serve it within a few weeks.
Does it matter if wine is stored upright or on it's side?
Hell yes! If you plan on cellaring a bottle of wine, keep it on it's side. This keeps the cork moist and the bottle air tight. If the cork gets dry from being upright and air enters the bottle, your wine will become oxidized and will ruin the wine... obviously not a good thing.
Does red wine age better than white?
For the most part, yes. Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Pinot Noir, and Syrah/Shiraz are your best candidates for cellaring. Very few white wines are able to age. There are a few white wines however, that will stand the test of time. Burgundy-style chardonnays, Germany Rieslings, sparkling wines, and fortified wines are the way to go here.
How can I turn my existing space into a wine cellar?
Maintaining the correct environment is essential if you are going to store your wines for an extended period of time. The desirable environment is a temperature range of 55-58° F and between 55% to 75% humidity. To maintain this environment your cellar must be isolated from any conditions that would compromise these desired ranges. This is accomplished with the proper use of vapor barriers and insulation. Two more elements affect your cellar environment -- the door and lighting. Of the many door options to choose from, you must have an exterior grade door with a full weather seal in order for your cellar to maintain its proper temperature and humidity. Lighting should be sufficient enough for you to enjoy your cellar without introducing much heat into the room. The refrigeration should handle a good lighting system as long as the lights are not left on for extended periods of time. We recommend installing your lights on a timer to prevent this from occurring. Please refer to "how to Build" for a step by step room conversion.
How do I increase the humidity in a dry space?
I've heard all sorts of tricks will work such as buckets of wet sand, damp sponges and even a simple bowl of water. Ideally, a cellar should be with 60-80% humidity, free from vibration, have a small amount of ventilation and maintain a steady temperature.
How do I know what is worth cellaring and what should be consumed now?
That's part of the fun while wine tasting. Discovering for yourself, what you deem worthy of holding onto for a few years and what you feel will last that much longer. Your best bet is to talk with the winemaker or your tasting room pourer. Ask them how long they feel the wine would cellar for. You can also use vintage charts as a basis. These charts can help determine overall if a particular year is worth holding on to though you can always find an exception. Most wines these days are meant to be consumed within 3-5 years of the vintage date. Unless you're holding a vintage wine or port - I'd say drink up!
How long can I celler a bottle of wine for?
Depends on thousands of factors and is quite possible an impossible questions to answer. A handful of issues include: the type of wine, the vintage, the region of the grapes, the wine making process, the storage conditions, the amout of time that has already passed... When in doubt, drink it early. Better to enjoy it young that wait to long and have it go bad.
I store my wine in the basement where its dark and cool but there is a slight musty smell too. Will this odor ruin my wine?
I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. Many cellars do indeed harbor musty aromas, and if subtle smells could penetrate corks, this would be a widespread and well-known problem. I surely wouldn't keep my wine in the presence of strong odors, but I wouldn't worry about subtle smells.
If I have a basement, don't I just need racking?
Not necessarily. Your basement may be cooler than the rest of the house, but it still experiences temperature swings which will damage the wine. Fortunately, by keeping a wine cellar in a basement that is naturally cooler than the rest of your house, you can save energy and money.
Once wine is chilled, if I don't open the bottle, can I let it warm up and store it in a non-refrigerated area.
Sure. Just don't repeat this change in temperature too many times. As long as the change in temperature is gradual and the frequency of this swap is minimal, your wine will be ok.
What is a cooling unit and how is it different from an air conditioning unit?
In the process of cooling a room, air-conditioners and refrigerator dries out the air. They are not designed to perform properly in the 55-58° F and 55% to 75% humidity range. Because of this, it is necessary to buy refrigeration units designed specifically for wine cellars if you want to maintain the proper environment.
What is the right way to store wine?
Maintaining the correct environment is essential if you are going to store your wines for an extended period of time. The desirable environment is a temperature range of 55-58° F and between 55% to 75% humidity. To maintain this environment you must isolate your cellar from any conditions that would compromise these desired ranges. This is accomplished with the use of vapor barriers and insulation.
What role does humidity play in wine storage?
Proper humidity is required to prevent corks from drying out, therefore preventing oxidation that can lead to spoilage. There is a growing hysteria regarding the need for very high humidity, and in reality it shouldn't be a major concern if you are over 50%. When it is too high, mould can form and your labels will be ruined.
Why is mahogany the best wood for a wine cellar?
The finest wine cellars in the world are created from the finest hardwoods for durability and wine protection. Softer woods, like pine and redwood can dent after years of use. Pine and other woods, like birch, oak, and cherry, can actually retain moisture, which can cause them to rot and mildew. Rot and mildew can affect the taste and quality of your wine. So, the finest wine cellar is built of mahogany. A fine mahogany wine cellar will last longer, protect your wine investment, and give you years of worry-free enjoyment.

[skpkey9]

Air2spare ~ Most of the wine rooms I've done were all Walk In custom boxes. As for reach-ins, Glas Tender makes a nice boxes.....
Fan Noise - As stated before depending on box set up (W/I) You can use speed control on evap motor.
Humidity levels - Should be between 55% and 75%.

Hopes this helps
If not let me know what other info you may need...

[the mojo]

Re-heat applications for wine coolers to control humidity have been used for quite some time. And as a side bar are used in fine chocolate display cases to keep the product from fogging on top.

[skpkey9]

Mojo ~ never seen it. I've seen countless axial motor fans used to keep glass from fogging on display cases. They are not fun to change on those old bakery bow front cases...

[rocket]

properly selecting the evaporator coil will go a long way in helping control humidity. The first thing to realize is that an evap doesn't produce btuh - it handles it, the condensing unit gives you the btuh.
Steps:
1. take the cond unit btuh and divide it by apllication's desired TD.
ex: wine is 15 TD 13,500 unit / 15 TD = 900 = coil rating at 1 deg TD
2. in coil catalog, you will find most evaps rated at 10 deg TD, convert
this to 1 deg TD (just scratch off the last zero)
3. take value from step 1 and find coil in step 2

ex: 13,500 unit / 15 = 900
look for coil at the 900 rating 1 TD

ADT900 = handles 9000 btuh coil at 10 TD
ADT900 = handles 900 btuh coil at 1 TD
ADT900 = handles 13500 btuh coil at 15 TD ( a perfect match(

as for the mistake, the wine guy chose ADT1300 13,000 btuh at 10 TD
he really need the ADT900 so now he has to put on fan speed controls
understanding this is important for wine and especially for flowers and it
is part of Basic Refrig 101

you can get desired TD's from heatcraft manual
you can download manual at:
http://www.heatcraftrpd.com/resources/wiringdiagrams/H-ENGM0806.pdf

[rocket]

one more TD example:

18,000 btuh flower box desired TD = 7
180000 / 7 = 2571 btuh at 1 TD
find a low velocity coil that's close to 2571 at 1 TD

closest is LO266 bohn
LO266 26600 btuh at 10 TD
LO266 2660 btuh at 1 TD (see close to 2571)
LO266 18620 btuh at 7 TD very good match

many would choose LO189 and have problems
LO189 18900 btuh 10 TD

please remember this, test on Thursday

[wannafreeze]

one more TD example:

18,000 btuh flower box desired TD = 7
180000 / 7 = 2571 btuh at 1 TD
find a low velocity coil that's close to 2571 at 1 TD

closest is LO266 bohn
LO266 26600 btuh at 10 TD
LO266 2660 btuh at 1 TD (see close to 2571)
LO266 18620 btuh at 7 TD very good match

many would choose LO189 and have problems
LO189 18900 btuh 10 TD

please remember this, test on Thursday
Great info.A refresher.Stuff that they don't even mention in 15 months hvacr schools.I had to learn it here from previous posts like this one.And Heatcraft manuals.Also Dick Wirtz's book explains it very well.
None of my employers would sit down with me and explain this stuff even though I was a perfect student.Maybe some of them didn't even know..

[gas_n_go]

Aren't wine cellars only necessary for the finest, expensive wines?[
No. All wines continue to develop in the bottle. Whether you spent $5 or $50 on a bottle of wine, proper storage is necessary to preserve the qualities that led you to buy that wine in the first place, even if you plan to serve it within a few weeks.
Does it matter if wine is stored upright or on it's side?
Hell yes! If you plan on cellaring a bottle of wine, keep it on it's side. This keeps the cork moist and the bottle air tight. If the cork gets dry from being upright and air enters the bottle, your wine will become oxidized and will ruin the wine... obviously not a good thing.
Does red wine age better than white?
For the most part, yes. Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Pinot Noir, and Syrah/Shiraz are your best candidates for cellaring. Very few white wines are able to age. There are a few white wines however, that will stand the test of time. Burgundy-style chardonnays, Germany Rieslings, sparkling wines, and fortified wines are the way to go here.
How can I turn my existing space into a wine cellar?
Maintaining the correct environment is essential if you are going to store your wines for an extended period of time. The desirable environment is a temperature range of 55-58° F and between 55% to 75% humidity. To maintain this environment your cellar must be isolated from any conditions that would compromise these desired ranges. This is accomplished with the proper use of vapor barriers and insulation. Two more elements affect your cellar environment -- the door and lighting. Of the many door options to choose from, you must have an exterior grade door with a full weather seal in order for your cellar to maintain its proper temperature and humidity. Lighting should be sufficient enough for you to enjoy your cellar without introducing much heat into the room. The refrigeration should handle a good lighting system as long as the lights are not left on for extended periods of time. We recommend installing your lights on a timer to prevent this from occurring. Please refer to "how to Build" for a step by step room conversion.
How do I increase the humidity in a dry space?
I've heard all sorts of tricks will work such as buckets of wet sand, damp sponges and even a simple bowl of water. Ideally, a cellar should be with 60-80% humidity, free from vibration, have a small amount of ventilation and maintain a steady temperature.
How do I know what is worth cellaring and what should be consumed now?
That's part of the fun while wine tasting. Discovering for yourself, what you deem worthy of holding onto for a few years and what you feel will last that much longer. Your best bet is to talk with the winemaker or your tasting room pourer. Ask them how long they feel the wine would cellar for. You can also use vintage charts as a basis. These charts can help determine overall if a particular year is worth holding on to though you can always find an exception. Most wines these days are meant to be consumed within 3-5 years of the vintage date. Unless you're holding a vintage wine or port - I'd say drink up!
How long can I celler a bottle of wine for?
Depends on thousands of factors and is quite possible an impossible questions to answer. A handful of issues include: the type of wine, the vintage, the region of the grapes, the wine making process, the storage conditions, the amout of time that has already passed... When in doubt, drink it early. Better to enjoy it young that wait to long and have it go bad.
I store my wine in the basement where its dark and cool but there is a slight musty smell too. Will this odor ruin my wine?
I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. Many cellars do indeed harbor musty aromas, and if subtle smells could penetrate corks, this would be a widespread and well-known problem. I surely wouldn't keep my wine in the presence of strong odors, but I wouldn't worry about subtle smells.
If I have a basement, don't I just need racking?
Not necessarily. Your basement may be cooler than the rest of the house, but it still experiences temperature swings which will damage the wine. Fortunately, by keeping a wine cellar in a basement that is naturally cooler than the rest of your house, you can save energy and money.
Once wine is chilled, if I don't open the bottle, can I let it warm up and store it in a non-refrigerated area.
Sure. Just don't repeat this change in temperature too many times. As long as the change in temperature is gradual and the frequency of this swap is minimal, your wine will be ok.
What is a cooling unit and how is it different from an air conditioning unit?
In the process of cooling a room, air-conditioners and refrigerator dries out the air. They are not designed to perform properly in the 55-58° F and 55% to 75% humidity range. Because of this, it is necessary to buy refrigeration units designed specifically for wine cellars if you want to maintain the proper environment.
What is the right way to store wine?
Maintaining the correct environment is essential if you are going to store your wines for an extended period of time. The desirable environment is a temperature range of 55-58° F and between 55% to 75% humidity. To maintain this environment you must isolate your cellar from any conditions that would compromise these desired ranges. This is accomplished with the use of vapor barriers and insulation.
What role does humidity play in wine storage?
Proper humidity is required to prevent corks from drying out, therefore preventing oxidation that can lead to spoilage. There is a growing hysteria regarding the need for very high humidity, and in reality it shouldn't be a major concern if you are over 50%. When it is too high, mould can form and your labels will be ruined.
Why is mahogany the best wood for a wine cellar?
The finest wine cellars in the world are created from the finest hardwoods for durability and wine protection. Softer woods, like pine and redwood can dent after years of use. Pine and other woods, like birch, oak, and cherry, can actually retain moisture, which can cause them to rot and mildew. Rot and mildew can affect the taste and quality of your wine. So, the finest wine cellar is built of mahogany. A fine mahogany wine cellar will last longer, protect your wine investment, and give you years of worry-free enjoyment.




I knew you were a whiner but did not know you was a wine-o too