23 seer?

[onad]

i am courios if anyone has installed one of these things and if the price is close to a top of the line competitor?

[Mr Bill]

We did a 23 SEER. iQ Drive technology Frigidaire about two weeks ago they are sweet is all I can say and I am a RUUD dealer but the customer wanted the Frigidaire because they were in Galveston, Tx. by the salt water, they have the ABS bottom and are suppose to be a little better for salty areas. I will tell you one thing those condensers are quiet and I mean really quiet you can barely hear it running, I was shocked at how quiet it was when we fired it up.

[chillersandcontrols]

:p They are quite quiet aren't they!!!:D

[Shophound]

We did a 23 SEER. iQ Drive technology Frigidaire about two weeks ago they are sweet is all I can say and I am a RUUD dealer but the customer wanted the Frigidaire because they were in Galveston, Tx. by the salt water, they have the ABS bottom and are suppose to be a little better for salty areas. I will tell you one thing those condensers are quite and I mean really quite you can barely hear it running, I was shocked at how quite it was when we fired it up.

You got that right, sir. I got to play with one last week and how quiet it was just blew me away. Won't ever see my house until the price point becomes waaaaay more reasonable. But I really dig the concept of how the capacity of the system can match the load on the structure. That's something I've been thinking about for some time now and someone's gone and done it. Of course I understand it's been going on overseas for some time, now. Only reason I can think why we're dragging our knuckles to this end is energy is still relatively cheap in the USA compared to elsewhere. As that changes I see this technology becoming more commonplace and affordable.

[Mr Bill]

Man a VS condenser motor and that fan blade is wild, you sure don't want to let your
hand get hit by that fan blade your hand will be hurting forever. :eek:

[mark beiser]

But I really dig the concept of how the capacity of the system can match the load on the structure. That's something I've been thinking about for some time now and someone's gone and done it. Of course I understand it's been going on overseas for some time, now. Only reason I can think why we're dragging our knuckles to this end is energy is still relatively cheap in the USA compared to elsewhere.

Trane did it in the early/mid 90's, the XV1500.
Nice system, but some of the technologies were not really that mature at the time, and there were issues with field personnel not following the installation instructions in regards to line sizing and routing, as well as misdiagnoses of problems and the usual refrigerant under/over charging.
The cool thing with the XV1500 was that it also had a zoning system where you could put a sensor in every room, and a modulating zone damper for each duct.
It was a fully variable capacity system with a fully modulating airflow management system, so you would only get as much cooling as needed, where needed, and in proportion to the load in each area.

I expect to see Trane come out with a modern version in the near future, only this time around all the components should be fully communicating, with self diagnostics, and more integrated controls. :cool:
At least thats my interpretation of the compilation of vague rumors and hints, or it could just be wishful thinking....

[dan sw fl]

I expect to see Trane come out with a modern version in the near future, only this time around all the components should be fully communicating, with self diagnostics, and more integrated controls.

At least thats my interpretation of the compilation of vague rumors and hints, or it could just be wishful thinking.

TRANE and all American manufacturers will find them in the shape of the American "automotive" industry if competitive products (variable speed condensers rated at > 20 SEER with integrated controls) are not forthcoming in the very near future.

Mitsubishi, Daikin and others would already have a significantly larger share of the upscale market if their costs were a little more competitive.

[Airmechanical]

Trane did it in the early/mid 90's, the XV1500.
Nice system, but some of the technologies were not really that mature at the time, and there were issues with field personnel not following the installation instructions in regards to line sizing and routing, as well as misdiagnoses of problems and the usual refrigerant under/over charging.
The cool thing with the XV1500 was that it also had a zoning system where you could put a sensor in every room, and a modulating zone damper for each duct.
It was a fully variable capacity system with a fully modulating airflow management system, so you would only get as much cooling as needed, where needed, and in proportion to the load in each area.

I expect to see Trane come out with a modern version in the near future, only this time around all the components should be fully communicating, with self diagnostics, and more integrated controls. :cool:
At least thats my interpretation of the compilation of vague rumors and hints, or it could just be wishful thinking....

how about that old in rush resistor, or the green coroded control wires?



.

[tpa-fl]

TRANE and all American manufacturers will find them in the shape of the American "automotive" industry if competitive products (variable speed condensers rated at > 20 SEER with integrated controls) are not forthcoming in the very near future.

Mitsubishi, Daikin and others would already have a significantly larger share of the upscale market if their costs were a little more competitive.

I wish Mitsu et al would make American-style fan-coils for their mini-splits. Americans still aren't willing to have HVAC equipment visible in their homes, especially in the high-end segment. I would have loved to put a bunch of Mitsu inverter-driven compressor mini-splits in my home, but I know I'd get nailed when it comes time to sell this place. I still think moving refrigerant/water around the house makes far more sense than moving air around the house.

[rdy357]

Daikin now has an upflow unit from 1 to 4 tons.
It is cool, but you need to install an external expansion valve and control box.
It does not take up too much space, but it is an american style upflow that looks like a good fit.



i am courios if anyone has installed one of these things and if the price is close to a top of the line competitor?

[acmech13]

The company i work for installed 2 Maytag 23 SEER systems back in September. Maytag is a product of Nordyne. The systems looked really nice, stainless steel. Of course when we go to start them a month ago, things became interesting. Doesn't help being the first company to be installing this system according to Nordyne. We are given 2 new iq stats because ours our already outdated. Go throu the iq stat setupfirst unit turns on in charge mode. Charge the system up and it runs really nice. Outside system is really quite with ninja style fan blades. Now i give the second system power and nothing happens. Meaning it doesn't go into its prepurge. Break out my meter find my transformer is producing its 24 volts. Yet the Inverter board is not recieving its 24 volts. Reason being they sent there common terminal from the transformer to w2. Gotta love factory f@*k ups. I correct the factory wiring and now i get my prepurge and my iq stat is working. I program my iq stat. put it in charge mode and go outside to plug in my disconnect and stat charging. I way in my charge to specks to find my 410a system running with 200psi on head and 0 on suction. I add some more and head doesn't rise and neither does my suction. Go inside trouble shoot the kelvin controller to find its not working correctly. We order a new one and now both systems are running fine. really nice machines.

[BigJon3475]

Will VFD ever be used to control compressor speeds and fan motor speeds infinitely adjustable? Maybe to get to 26 SEER or higher :D

[dan sw fl]

Will VFD ever be used to control compressor speeds and fan motor speeds infinitely adjustable?
Maybe to get to 26 SEER or higher :D

Mitsubishi, Daikin and others have had products on the market for awhile.

U.S. mfgs are playing catch-up.

TRANE should have a > 22 SEER
variable speed condenser on the market in 2 years.

[rdy357]

Daikin has 29 steps on the compressor and many more on the fan from what I read on it.



Will VFD ever be used to control compressor speeds and fan motor speeds infinitely adjustable? Maybe to get to 26 SEER or higher :D

[Shophound]

The company i work for installed 2 Maytag 23 SEER systems back in September. Maytag is a product of Nordyne. The systems looked really nice, stainless steel. Of course when we go to start them a month ago, things became interesting. Doesn't help being the first company to be installing this system according to Nordyne. We are given 2 new iq stats because ours our already outdated. Go throu the iq stat setupfirst unit turns on in charge mode. Charge the system up and it runs really nice. Outside system is really quite with ninja style fan blades. Now i give the second system power and nothing happens. Meaning it doesn't go into its prepurge. Break out my meter find my transformer is producing its 24 volts. Yet the Inverter board is not recieving its 24 volts. Reason being they sent there common terminal from the transformer to w2. Gotta love factory f@*k ups. I correct the factory wiring and now i get my prepurge and my iq stat is working. I program my iq stat. put it in charge mode and go outside to plug in my disconnect and stat charging. I way in my charge to specks to find my 410a system running with 200psi on head and 0 on suction. I add some more and head doesn't rise and neither does my suction. Go inside trouble shoot the kelvin controller to find its not working correctly. We order a new one and now both systems are running fine. really nice machines.

The Nordyne 23 SEER is pretty impressive. A local rep wheeled a split system into our local community college's HVAC lab to let the students see it in action. I actually got to play with it after the instructor could not get it to come on. I was very impressed how quiet it was...I'd love to have that condenser where my present Goodman CLT60-1 sits...right outside my bedroom window. The Nordyne would barely be detectable when it runs, and the indoor blower is quiet as well.

The thing I'm most impressed with is how this system and other inverter driven systems can do what ALL residential a/c systems should be able to do...match capacity to load. With the variable speed blower, compressor, and condenser fan it's possible to set these things up to run almost all of the time and yet use less power than our standard American bang on/bang off control strategies. Imagine how much the inrush current jolts add up in a day, a week, a month, a coolng season. The inverter driven gear just ramps up nice and slow, and then runs only as fast as needed, no more or no less.

[acmech13]

So you got to trouble shoot those boards also shop. It seems like alot of older techs wanted nothing to do with this system. When maytag sent there rep over to train us on setting it up. I looked at the system as a puzzle i wanted to play with. I mean all those boards inside. They are slowly making us computer techs along with our job as hvac techs. And now the expansion valve is being controlled by the superheat sensor and the kelvin controller that keeps it at 10 degrees of superheat. The panasonic three phase compressor is just amazing. only downfall is the system is not set up for zoning. Yet when it was installed my boss had both machines set up with 2 zones each. We used the enviorocom zoning boards. The only way I was able to make that work was knocking out the iq stat with a rib relay. Which in the end shuts the whole system down unless one of my tstats where calling for cooling. That is my only complaint on this system. They need to allow it to be set up for zoning.

[Shophound]

So you got to trouble shoot those boards also shop. It seems like alot of older techs wanted nothing to do with this system. When maytag sent there rep over to train us on setting it up. I looked at the system as a puzzle i wanted to play with. I mean all those boards inside. They are slowly making us computer techs along with our job as hvac techs. And now the expansion valve is being controlled by the superheat sensor and the kelvin controller that keeps it at 10 degrees of superheat. The panasonic three phase compressor is just amazing. only downfall is the system is not set up for zoning. Yet when it was installed my boss had both machines set up with 2 zones each. We used the enviorocom zoning boards. The only way I was able to make that work was knocking out the iq stat with a rib relay. Which in the end shuts the whole system down unless one of my tstats where calling for cooling. That is my only complaint on this system. They need to allow it to be set up for zoning.

It seems this system would be ideal for a different take on residential zoning...a "for real" VAV system! That is where the air handler blower is maintaining a static pressure setpoint with each zone in the house having a variable air volume box, pressure independent, that modulates air to each zone. The air handler and condenser ramps capacity and blower speed up or down precisely as needed to meet the load, say a constant discharge air temperature. The VAV boxes have minimum damper positions, just like in commercial, to assure an ongoing air change and a degree of filtration. No clunky bypass ducts or barometric dampers and no coil freezing because the inverter driven compressor can step up or down, and the kelvin controller closely watches superheat.

It might seem over the top for a residential application but with that level of technology from Nordyne, it's not so crazy. May be time for a sea change of thought toward residential zoning, now that the inverter stuff is marching onto the scene?

I didn't actually troubleshoot the system at the lab, just got it to run by poking around with the controller. I do agree about the ongoing merge between computer technology and hvac technology, and how some guys will fight it. I'm an older tech and I welcome it...the more precision the better, IMO. At my central plant it's computer controls out the whazoo and for me it's a godsend. Can be a PITA at times but when it works, it's WONDERFUL for knowing what's going on with the plant. The whole issue of computer vs. HVAC makes me think of the Borg...adapt or die. :D

[BigJon3475]

It will all be computer controlled for the future...The speeds of the motors as related to the loads...the air delivery (duct work dampers or adj. air flow)....The choice of power consumption.....humidity control....room variant....completely monitored.........They'll all come with a DELL :D and a engineering degree to run it :D


Question...so is VFD infinitely adjustable? Or is it adjustable like said above 29 different speeds? I guess what I'm thinking of is where every component of the entire systems is infinitely adjustable based on load...from the air delivery to the motors...to room requirements....heck maybe even the system can follow you are and your personal preference based on your heat profile (so it knows what your preferences are) so as you move from one room to another it knows.....ohh he likes 71 degrees but the wifey like 73.....hes in the study....change parameters....

[Shophound]

It will all be computer controlled for the future...The speeds of the motors as related to the loads...the air delivery (duct work dampers or adj. air flow)....The choice of power consumption.....humidity control....room variant....completely monitored.........They'll all come with a DELL :D and a engineering degree to run it :D


Question...so is VFD infinitely adjustable? Or is it adjustable like said above 29 different speeds? I guess what I'm thinking of is where every component of the entire systems is infinitely adjustable based on load...from the air delivery to the motors...to room requirements....heck maybe even the system can follow you are and your personal preference based on your heat profile (so it knows what your preferences are) so as you move from one room to another it knows.....ohh he likes 71 degrees but the wifey like 73.....hes in the study....change parameters....

If Johnson Controls is involved it indeed will come with a Dell computer. :D That is what they install for their Metasys system ADS computers.

For AC motors, the variability is typically limited to three phase equipment and a range between around 20 to 60 Hertz. The residential equipment with truly variable speed motors are DC inverter driven, since most residential installations are with single phase power sources.

As for your scenario of custom climate not only per zone but per person, a bit way out there but the strategy I mentioned in my last post would get you closer to that possibility than I see in current residential zoning approaches. That being said, residential doesn't have the intensity a commercial setting does, and it is more subject to outdoor influences than indoor heat sources. Therefore a zoning strategy that took into account the solar exposures of the various sections of the house, and also by occupancy, say bedroom zones, living zones, cooking and laundry zones. With a true VAV system you can deliver as much capacity as the system will give to one zone or all the zones, or have all zones maintain a minimum and the air handler acts more like a dehumidifier...lots of possibilities this inverter technology can bring to the table.

[mchild]

Daikin now has an upflow unit from 1 to 4 tons.
It is cool, but you need to install an external expansion valve and control box.
It does not take up too much space, but it is an american style upflow that looks like a good fit.

rdy357,

I have tried to find some information on this new air handler but can't come up with anything on the Daikin web site. Can you point me in a direction that I might get some info? Model number or a specific web page?

Thanks

[rdy357]

They should be on the website now as I just looked on there.
If you do not find it, just call them.
www.daikinac.com

make sure you go to the US site. That is the one listed above.
The global site is just daikin and not daikinac.



rdy357,

I have tried to find some information on this new air handler but can't come up with anything on the Daikin web site. Can you point me in a direction that I might get some info? Model number or a specific web page?

Thanks

[rdy357]

Go to their website and check out the FXOQ upflow air handler.
it is www.daikinac.com and if it is not on there just call them.
I think the office phone number is on there.
Their main office is in Carrollton Texas and they offer tours all the time.
Pretty cool and they actually cool/heat their office with their own equipment.
The training room is awesome as it has all the Daikin stuff operational.



I wish Mitsu et al would make American-style fan-coils for their mini-splits. Americans still aren't willing to have HVAC equipment visible in their homes, especially in the high-end segment. I would have loved to put a bunch of Mitsu inverter-driven compressor mini-splits in my home, but I know I'd get nailed when it comes time to sell this place. I still think moving refrigerant/water around the house makes far more sense than moving air around the house.

[acmech13]

stay away from the 23 seer system. there kelvin controller is not working correctly.