Please help! Tech onsite Nitro After Vacuum?

[sam_hikes]

Tech is onsite and trying to save time.... Has to run back to get nitro!

Wants to vacuum system to less than 500 microns and THEN to NITRO pressure test to 120psi for 10 minutes.

IS IT OK to reverse these steps as he doesn't plan to vacuum down the system again?

Tech is here now... THANKS!

[will 2]

Dude, put alittle trust in the guys you hired.

If you can't trust them, what the heck are they doing there anyway ?

[davo]

Tech is onsite and trying to save time.... Has to run back to get nitro!

Wants to vacuum system to less than 500 microns and THEN to NITRO pressure test to 120psi for 10 minutes.

IS IT OK to reverse these steps as he doesn't plan to vacuum down the system again?

Tech is here now... THANKS!

He needs to evacuate it AFTER the nitrogen.

[sam_hikes]

Trust went away after probably 20 service calls, 2 compressors, 2 lineset moves, 1 king valve replacement, 2 new blower coils, and a few other minor defects on my new Trane xl14i system from Nov 2006.

Tech wasn't even going to do the nitrogen thing as he doesn't have any on the truck!

XL14I was opened up to remove the Trane internal driers and was externally evac'd of all r22.

He wasn't going to do the nitro thing until I insisted as I've read it's used for leak checking as well as drying/cleaning the linesets and should always be done during this procedure.

Any harm in doing the nitro last just after the vacuum and not vacuuming down the system b/4 re-charging it?

Dude, put alittle trust in the guys you hired.

If you can't trust them, what the heck are they doing there anyway ?

[sam_hikes]

What's the exposure?

He needs to evacuate it AFTER the nitrogen.

[BaldLoonie]

The last thing you do before shooting R22 in the system is the evacuation. Period.

The evacuation lowers the boiling point in the vaccum to where any remaining moisture boils away and clears out any air, nitrogen, anything the doesn't condense. After you've held a vacuum of 500 microns or lower for 10 minutes, then you start weighing in your R22.

[mikelcs]

1) purge a small amount of nitrogen through the system while welding.
2)pump the system up with nitrogen to leak check ( i go to 300#)
3)dump nitrogen out of system after leak check
4) evacuate and charge
pretty basic and standard procedure

[mikelcs]

The last thing you do before shooting R22 in the system is the evacuation. Period.

The evacuation lowers the boiling point in the vaccum to where any remaining moisture boils away and clears out any air, nitrogen, anything the doesn't condense. After you've held a vacuum of 500 microns or lower for 10 minutes, then you start weighing in your R22.

in my experience,holding a vacuum is not a good method of leak checking. especially after only 10 minutes. pressure will be a better indicator, and at least one hour is a better time frame..

[Dad]

At least this guy has nitrogen :D

[sam_hikes]

nope... NO NITRO... Had to go back to the shop for it.

All welds done without nitro in the system too.

At least this guy has nitrogen :D

[BigJon3475]

Dirty little....there is another thread about not using nitro during brazing. Its bad all around and it leaves scale on the inside of the line. Pressure is a better indication of a leak IMO and nitro can also be used to keep oxidation out of linesets during periods without refrigerant in them. Make sure they schedule a trip to check the pressure drop across the driers after about a week. If not do it yourself by isolating the line on both sides of the filter from the ambient temp and make sure on both sides of the filter its the same temp if not you have pressure drop and filter should be replaced. Make sure when they replace filters again the use nitrogen this time for purge as recommended by trane. You might also want to read your owners manual from front to back just for future knowledge.

[blackbird]

if you been welding for some time, you can tell if it might leak, a good crown will give you the visiual. add a drier and pump it down..experience teaches the teachalbe. put the book away. its like this... field tested!!!!...relax;)

[sam_hikes]

I was able to discuss matter with tech and he did vacuum after the nitro pressure test.

He thinks nitro pressure test is just for leaks but I've read here that it's also for cleaning/drying? He never does the nitro pressure test and doesn't carry nitro.

[sam_hikes]

Thanks for everyone's responses...

Seems like nitro is often not properly used or used at all.

[jrbenny]

if you been welding for some time, you can tell if it might leak, a good crown will give you the visiual. add a drier and pump it down..experience teaches the teachalbe. put the book away. its like this... field tested!!!!...relax;)
That's lousy advice.

The OP has been royally screwed by this contractor. They must be one big outfit to not be fired by the distributor. Me and the general sales manager would be having a meeting with the owner.

[zzonko]

in my experience,holding a vacuum is not a good method of leak checking. especially after only 10 minutes. pressure will be a better indicator, and at least one hour is a better time frame

This is exactly true.

Under a vacuum if there is a leak, and its in the suction, often it will suck in the armaflex and seal the leak (innie leak). Now you pressurize with juice and you have an (outtie) leak.

Pressure test with 150-200 #'s nitro after brazing for 15-20 minutes, evacuate, break vacuum with charge.

[Sam-the-man]

[QUOTE=sam_hikes;1452715]Trust went away after probably 20 service calls, 2 compressors, 2 lineset moves, 1 king valve replacement, 2 new blower coils, and a few other minor defects on my new Trane xl14i system from Nov 2006.

QUOTE]


Sounds like they F***ed up a nice piece of equipment on the original install, and then didn't know to get it un-f***ed. You need somebody else to tell you what the problem is. In 15 years of service/installation, I've never had a bad compressor out-of-the-box. If one or both of those compressors was really dead, it's because the original installation killed it. Sounds like the service guys are just chasing their own asses on this one. You seriously need a tech out there who can properly diagnose the problem.

[Shophound]

I was able to discuss matter with tech and he did vacuum after the nitro pressure test.

He thinks nitro pressure test is just for leaks but I've read here that it's also for cleaning/drying? He never does the nitro pressure test and doesn't carry nitro.

Which means he probably never flows nitro during brazing, either.

Two compressors, two coils, two lineset moves, one leaking service valve...what was he out for today?

I agree...break vacuum with refrigerant, weigh in refrigerant to spec, verify proper charge via superheat and subcooling, check overall performance. Time spent to do it right...better than time spent to do it over. Some folks are VERY slow to pick up on that concept, obviously.

[sam_hikes]

All the compressor problems were miss-diagnosed as it was 1st a bad king valve and next the original installer failed to properly torque the metal replacement fan assembly during the exchange of the factory xl14i plastic top. Lots of extra $$$$ for the contractor from Trane to replace all this stuff.

[QUOTE=sam_hikes;1452715]Trust went away after probably 20 service calls, 2 compressors, 2 lineset moves, 1 king valve replacement, 2 new blower coils, and a few other minor defects on my new Trane xl14i system from Nov 2006.

QUOTE]


Sounds like they F***ed up a nice piece of equipment on the original install, and then didn't know to get it un-f***ed. You need somebody else to tell you what the problem is. In 15 years of service/installation, I've never had a bad compressor out-of-the-box. If one or both of those compressors was really dead, it's because the original installation killed it. Sounds like the service guys are just chasing their own asses on this one. You seriously need a tech out there who can properly diagnose the problem.

[NewUser75]

It's sad this is such an issue!!! Trane should have big ass stickers on the equipment that have to be removed which detail a brazing and evacuation/charge procedure that should be the same for all installations.

[timebuilder]

There is another aspect of this. It is happening in many industries, too. Some call it the "race to the bottom."

The idea is who can find enough corners to cut so that they consistently come out as the least expensive installer/service/landscaper/agent/production house/newspaper/radio station or whatever. For some techs, this might mean that using nitrogen is not the daily routine. Since it's not expensive, it costs time, instead.

Should it be used? Yep.

There are too many benefits to not use it.

Now, what drives this?

Answer: the drive is from consumers who purchase on price alone. Price is a ingredient, but it's not the cake. You can buy on price when something is a commodity, but buying HVAC service is anything but that.

Next time, get some referrals and buy for quality, because not buying quality is just too expensive.

[NewUser75]

You smarter guys should make pamphlets to sell to the industry. Something like, "20 questions to ask your HVAC installer to allow for true cost comparison and knowledgable install."

[timebuilder]

You smarter guys should make pamphlets to sell to the industry. Something like, "20 questions to ask your HVAC installer to allow for true cost comparison and knowledgable install."

I'll bet that many folks who take part or just lurk around here are thinking about that.

[davidr]

You smarter guys should make pamphlets to sell to the industry. Something like, "20 questions to ask your HVAC installer to allow for true cost comparison and knowledgable install."

This is actually an idea that we use except it is ten things on our handout, might take it to twenty now. :)

[d_griff]

boy am i glad i stopped doing residential,it is clear to me that sam was going to find something wrong before this poor kid even walked on the property,he was set up for loss,he never had a chance.aside from the fact your installer has no idea what he is doing or obviously never been taught the refrigeration system or the importance of proper brazing and removing moisture,i always hated them damn customers poking around and standing behind you and telling you how to do your job,you know the sneaky ones watchin you through the window...do yourself a favor,i hope you find a guy you can trust,find a guy you can trust and sit in your house and watch tv and let the poor guy work!!!
did you ever call this company and ask for someone who knows what they are doing?there should be a lemon law for a/c..once this thing runs out of warranty you are in for some big bills.

[NewUser75]

I'm serious. It should have pictures which show low, medium, and premium installations and what you get for what price. Most HO's don't know about different ducts and installation techniques. You all will only sell as well as you educate. Obviously some people are too easily overwhelmed and this wouldn't work, but I would have loved to have someone come in with pictures and said, "This is premium, this is average, and this is crap. Ask the next installer which he will be installing for what price." I would have hired him on the spot.

[dash]

You smarter guys should make pamphlets to sell to the industry. Something like, "20 questions to ask your HVAC installer to allow for true cost comparison and knowledgable install."


We have tried that,and still do it on sales calls,some still buy on price,some believe the other guy will do allthis,because he said he would,that doesn't make it happen.

[Mr Bill]

It's sad this is such an issue!!! Trane should have big ass stickers on the equipment that have to be removed which detail a brazing and evacuation/charge procedure that should be the same for all installations.


O yea that will work! :rolleyes: Guess your one of those that reads "everything" on the food label your about to eat, or asks your waiter could you please have the cook send out an ingredients on this order before I order it. :cool:

[rogerk]

Wants to vacuum system to less than 500 microns and THEN to NITRO pressure test to 120psi for 10 minutes.

If said "TECH" wants to vacuum down to 500 microns and it holds then there is no reason to leak test ( pressure test ) the system. He just proved that the system has no leaks when it holds a vacuum, so why in the world would he fill his vacuumed lines with nitro? I hope your not paying this guy by the hour? :eek: As far as not flowing nitro while he brazed, well only time will tell if it is going to do any damage, and if and when it does cause damage you will never be able to prove his actions caused it. :(

[BigJon3475]

You smarter guys should make pamphlets to sell to the industry. Something like, "20 questions to ask your HVAC installer to allow for true cost comparison and knowledgable install."

There is a thread that you can print some info from.....Its how to tell if your tech is a hack I believe. One thing can be learned from all this next time big purchase is going to be coming up research till you can't read anymore. And for the guy that said he hated HO looking over his back....If you knew you were doing it the best way possible this wouldn't be an issue. I oten work on cars for people and am more than happy to have them watch or give me info about when or where something happened at. It often helps me fix the problem to the best of my ability. When HO's pay upwards of $3,000 (which is a bunch of money for most people) They deserve to get what they pay for and for anyone to say don't check me out while I do the work....That should explain everything itself. The only time I have ever gotten mad at anyone standing over my back is when I didn't know what the heck I was doing and that's my fault not the one standing over my back. The HO is paying you so you can have food on the table for your kids atleast talk to them like they are feeding you and not like they are annnoying you. Also I have a question I think i know the answer but I'll ask to be sure. If you pull down to 500 microns and it stays you have removed all the combustibles out of the system only this doesn't mean it's leak free only that it's free off combustibles. If you pull down to 500 and it goes eventually up to 1000 but not over this means you still have combustibles or water in the system correct? Obviously if it goes over that you have an issue. Also 2 nd Q the only way to pressure test is to bring up to the design pressure which I think is 150 Suction 300 liquid?

[zzonko]

If said "TECH" wants to vacuum down to 500 microns and it holds then there is no reason to leak test ( pressure test ) the system. He just proved that the system has no leaks when it holds a vacuum, so why in the world would he fill his vacuumed lines with nitro? I hope your not paying this guy by the hour? :eek: As far as not flowing nitro while he brazed, well only time will tell if it is going to do any damage, and if and when it does cause damage you will never be able to prove his actions caused it. :(

This is wrong advice. Leaks do not always show up on a "vacuum test". If the leak is on the suction side it will suck the armaflex in and "seal" the leak. Leak test the way the system will be used, with pressure.

[timebuilder]

If said "TECH" wants to vacuum down to 500 microns and it holds then there is no reason to leak test ( pressure test ) the system. He just proved that the system has no leaks when it holds a vacuum, so why in the world would he fill his vacuumed lines with nitro? I hope your not paying this guy by the hour? :eek: As far as not flowing nitro while he brazed, well only time will tell if it is going to do any damage, and if and when it does cause damage you will never be able to prove his actions caused it. :(

The reason to pressure test a system with nitrogen is twofold.

1) First, the different ways that leaks propagate mechanically. Some will be best found by attempting to pull a vacuum, and others will best be revealed by pressure.

2) The introduction of pressure can apply far greater test stresses (and under similar dynamics to actual use) when compared to the relatively small difference of the maximum pressure differential between atmospheric pressure and a vacuum, a difference of only 14.7 PSI. [edit: if you could pull a perfect vacuum]

Of course, there is a bonus in the fact that Nitrogen is supplied without moisture, providing another opportunity to dehydrate the system.

[Christheheatingdude]

O yea that will work! :rolleyes: Guess your one of those that reads "everything" on the food label your about to eat, or asks your waiter could you please have the cook send out an ingredients on this order before I order it. :cool:

Each piece of equipment is different, if you are not reading or at least scanning the install manuals you are doing the customer a disservice. It is our responsibilty to be aware of the procedures regarding the equipment we are putting in. How does a can of food, or eating a meal out relate to the technical details that we have to deal with each day?

[Mr Bill]

It is our responsibilty to be aware of the procedures regarding the equipment we are putting in. How does a can of food, or eating a meal out relate to the technical details that we have to deal with each day?


Your right I will give you that ok, so I have probably sold thousands of RUUD condensers in the past 16 years I have been a dealer, how many times must I read these instructions before I am doing the customer a good service. :rolleyes:

[Mr Bill]

How does a can of food, or eating a meal out relate to the technical details that we have to deal with each day?

There was a little message there but you read way to much into my post can't help you there.

[NewUser75]

Guess your one of those that reads "everything" on the food label your about to eat, or asks your waiter could you please have the cook send out an ingredients on this order before I order it. :cool:

Actually, I do know most of what I put in my mouth. Your posts make you out to be an ass, not a professional who cares about his industry's reputation. Fortunately this board has lots of professionals who care about educating the customer and developing a working relationship with them. You seem the type that simply wants some money and then for the customer to go away and shut up.

[Mr Bill]

Your posts make you out to be an ass.

Wow your posts make you out to be a very untrustworthy person is that worse or better than an A$$. Guess your wife ran off with an a/c man and now you upset at me, she did good though. :D

[rogerk]

This is wrong advice. Leaks do not always show up on a "vacuum test". If the leak is on the suction side it will suck the armaflex in and "seal" the leak. Leak test the way the system will be used, with pressure.
Well I misworded what I meant to say. There is no need to leak test AFTER you pull the vacuum. It must be done before. I agree, all the manufacturer installation instructions I have read say you must pressure test the system to check for leaks.

[Mr Bill]

Actually, I do know most of what I put in my mouth.


How do you put anything in there with your foot in it most of the time. :eek:

[Mr Bill]

You seem the type that simply wants some money and then for the customer to go away and shut up.


Thats not me at all, but sometimes a person has to be The Devil's Advocate and I am sure you have been The Devil's Advocate at least once in you life, if not no wonder she left you must be very boring. :D

[davidr]

Man did this thread take a pitiful turn.

[timebuilder]

Actually, I do know most of what I put in my mouth. Your posts make you out to be an ass, not a professional who cares about his industry's reputation. Fortunately this board has lots of professionals who care about educating the customer and developing a working relationship with them. You seem the type that simply wants some money and then for the customer to go away and shut up.

While I understand your concern, I don't think you have seen anything from this member that supports your assertions in the above quote.

You probably have had some sort of life or business experience where you had a firm conviction of your insights, ability, and the correctness of your approach, only to have a neophyte or otherwise inexperienced person doubting your ability. I'm sure you found the experience disconcerting.

We provide a lot of general information, but our purpose is not to develop a working relationship with consumers.

And we like to kid around a little, too. ;)

[beenthere]

[QUOTE=timebuilder;1453021]
but our purpose is not to develop a working relationship with consumers.

QUOTE]


You should form a working relationship with your customers.

But not a personal relationship, they'll expect discounts then. :)

[Christheheatingdude]

Your right I will give you that ok, so I have probably sold thousands of RUUD condensers in the past 16 years I have been a dealer, how many times must I read these instructions before I am doing the customer a good service. :rolleyes:

The magic number is..............

6. :D :D

Have you ever been at a supply house and some tech comes in and asks a question and you know the answer is right in the install directions? It just amazes me how few people actually take the time to read those things. That is all I was really trying to say.

[d_griff]

There is a thread that you can print some info from.....Its how to tell if your tech is a hack I believe. One thing can be learned from all this next time big purchase is going to be coming up research till you can't read anymore. And for the guy that said he hated HO looking over his back....If you knew you were doing it the best way possible this wouldn't be an issue. I oten work on cars for people and am more than happy to have them watch or give me info about when or where something happened at. It often helps me fix the problem to the best of my ability. When HO's pay upwards of $3,000 (which is a bunch of money for most people) They deserve to get what they pay for and for anyone to say don't check me out while I do the work....That should explain everything itself. The only time I have ever gotten mad at anyone standing over my back is when I didn't know what the heck I was doing and that's my fault not the one standing over my back. The HO is paying you so you can have food on the table for your kids atleast talk to them like they are feeding you and not like they are annnoying you. Also I have a question I think i know the answer but I'll ask to be sure. If you pull down to 500 microns and it stays you have removed all the combustibles out of the system only this doesn't mean it's leak free only that it's free off combustibles. If you pull down to 500 and it goes eventually up to 1000 but not over this means you still have combustibles or water in the system correct? Obviously if it goes over that you have an issue. Also 2 nd Q the only way to pressure test is to bring up to the design pressure which I think is 150 Suction 300 liquid?

first off chief,i know what im doing and have no problem with a "Concerned" custmer asking questions and tagging along,i actually welcome it,its a lonely field.if you learn how to read i said i hate customers following you around telling YOU how to do YOUR job. big difference..if a customer stands behind you,and you know what your doing,and he tries to tell you to do something that is not right because he thinks he knows better,thats what im referring to,and you dont remove combustibles from systems (I hope),its non-condensables.as far as a micron,it is a unit of measure to measure your vaccum,if you have a unit pulled down to 500 and you shut off your pump,if your micron reading rises continuelly.. you have a leak because you are losing your vaccum and air is entering the system..other then refrigerant releasing 9Boiling)from the oil when it hits a deep vacuum and raising your reading,nothing else should.

[sam_hikes]

Can we close this thread... Case is closed.

Tech finally did follow proper procedure....

[Mr Bill]

Can we close this thread... Case is closed.

Tech finally did follow proper procedure....


What did you print out this thread and let him read it? http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif

[beenthere]

What did you print out this thread and let him read it? http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif
He threatened to make the tech read it. :)

[BigJon3475]

My apologies not combustibles.....noncondensables. I was under the impression air in the system was called combustibles because oxygen under pressure is explosive. I agree someone telling you how to do your job and you know it's wrong sucks. My apologies if I offended you. Ohh and its below 1000 microns is considered leak free in Goodman instillation instructions. 1000-2000 it has noncondensables in the system or moisture above 2000 is considered a leak sorry I should have looked it up online I was trying to quote frm meomry I'm getting old. My foot taste well though....I promise i'll learn one day to just read and don't type.

[timebuilder]

You should form a working relationship with your customers.

But not a personal relationship, they'll expect discounts then. :)

I meant our purpose here on HVAC Talk is not to develop a working relationship with consumers, as someone opined. :eek:

[d_griff]

My apologies not combustibles.....noncondensables. I was under the impression air in the system was called combustibles because oxygen under pressure is explosive. I agree someone telling you how to do your job and you know it's wrong sucks. My apologies if I offended you.

im sorry for not making myself clear and if i offended you in my response,now lets go get drunk:)
i actually like a educated customer b/c then i feel like i can explain myself properly and he knows im not blowing smoke up his a**..but when you get that guy who is trying to prove how much he knows before you even get started,and he is asking you questions like "why are you going outside,i told you the stat is bad?".i think it sucks,back when i did residental,the common customer on call would tell me over the phne one of two things was wrong,it was always "My unit needs freon,it needed it before,do you have any freon?"..or "My thermostat is bad because it turn it on and nothing happens"..you and i know so much more can go wrong,but if you got there and you told them "The freon isnt the problem,you have a bad condenser motor"..then he'll say,i got a friend in work,and he stopped by and said it just needs freon..i hated that.these are bad examples..but..i..dont...know...:confused:

[BigJon3475]

If it's not the tstat it must be freon thats all thats in the system lol...I get those on every single call because the previous calls the years before thats what they were told. We actually get residents that called up before cooling season started asking for freon because they didnt want to wait till it was hot for the a/c to work....I just laugh...sadly enough this was common practice and still is in the apartment industry....I learned the beer can cold charging method till I figured out real quick that wasnt good. Thats what started my interest in learning the right ways....now I'm like a sponge and don't mind being corrected at least then I know what's right from then on....humility is a great teacher.

[timebuilder]

Glad to hear it. Learning is continuous and contagious.


My apologies not combustibles.....noncondensables. I was under the impression air in the system was called combustibles because oxygen under pressure is explosive.

Oxygen can make other things explosive, but by itself, it is not explosive, even under pressure. It needs the presence of another compound to enable an explosion.

For example, it was the oxygen in the Oklahoma City bombing mixture that made it an explosive combination. The oxygen is the "-ate" ending in "nitrate," and that compound supplies the oxygen that makes the mixture explosive. It's the combination of other compounds with oxygen that are dangerous. That's why oxygen regulators on tanks say "do not oil."

I've been on 100% oxygen at 45,000 feet, and I did not explode.

[Tech Rob]

The only time I use Nitrogen after connecting a vacuum pump to the system is to break the vacuum. It's subsequently evacuated to 500 microns three separate times and broken with N2O twice.

That is definitely not typical procedure on the average house call, though. Nor should it be.

[BigJon3475]

My mouth isnt but so big okay .......My foot is already taking up most of my mouth....Just kidding....so now I know .....I know more about the oxygen I breath than I every thought I could...google is great. Also found out oxygen at above atmoshperic pressure starts to become posionous so in your case being lower than atmospheric pressure you were compensating for the lack there of...correct?

[BigJon3475]

The only time I use Nitrogen after connecting a vacuum pump to the system is to break the vacuum. It's subsequently evacuated to 500 microns three separate times and broken with N2O twice.

That is definitely not typical procedure on the average house call, though. Nor should it be.

Because Nitrogen helps absorb all the moisture?

[Mr Bill]

What were we talking about again? :eek:

[d_griff]

Because Nitrogen helps absorb all the moisture?

its called triple evacuation.its great if you think you exposed your system to moisture.i had them so bad within ten minutes of runnin my pump my oil looks like milk,did triple evac,changin oil alot,and it was below 500 microns the last time.

[timebuilder]

The only time I use Nitrogen after connecting a vacuum pump to the system is to break the vacuum. It's subsequently evacuated to 500 microns three separate times and broken with N2O twice.

That is definitely not typical procedure on the average house call, though. Nor should it be.

You're right. The normal procedure would be to use it to blow out debris (when necessary) to protect the inside when brazing, and to pressurize for leak testing. On a home system, after releasing the pressure, you would pull a deep vacuum, hold it, and then charge.

[Tech Rob]

Because Nitrogen helps absorb all the moisture?

What it actually does is displace air that contains moisture. Nitrogen gas is inert and not hygroscopic.

[timebuilder]

What it actually does is displace air that contains moisture. Nitrogen gas is inert and not hygroscopic.

No, it's not hygroscopic, but it could be hydrated very easily, especially if it was exposed to moisture in a system.

The atmosphere is 78% Nitrogen, and it can hold a LOT of water.

[Tech Rob]

No, it's not hygroscopic, but it could be hydrated very easily, especially if it was exposed to moisture in a system.

The atmosphere is 78% Nitrogen, and it can hold a LOT of water.

I had no idea. :)
Thanks for clearing that up.

[BigJon3475]

so......it absorbs moisture....or displaces oxygen...or both?

[Shophound]

I just laugh...sadly enough this was common practice and still is in the apartment industry....I learned the beer can cold charging method till I figured out real quick that wasnt good. Thats what started my interest in learning the right ways....now I'm like a sponge and don't mind being corrected at least then I know what's right from then on....humility is a great teacher.

I speak to you as one who has spent time in the trenches as a "multi-family housing maintenance technician", with your thirst for knowledge and your good attitude, look to someday find yourself gainfully employed outside your current realm of employment. I learned a lot while in the apartment biz but I've learned so much more since transiting into commercial regarding HVAC. Nevertheless, right where you are you have a golden opportunity to apply a great deal of what is discussed here on a daily basis, and what is archived on the training forum sites. Keep it up! :cool:

[rogerk]

Can we close this thread... Case is closed.

Not until Newuser75 and Mr. Billpro kiss and make up.:p :o

[NewUser75]

Man did this thread take a pitiful turn.

I guess that was mainly my fault. I read a ton of threads on here before I registered and I was apalled at how homeowners who want some information (admittedly, too late at times) get slammed by some of you all for simply questioning their installers who for all you know is the slickest rip off artist in the community. Honestly, I want an answer on this one. How many homeowners do you think would tell you their installer wired their system so that it heats and cools but does not utilize the variable speed air handler and 2 stage heat pump properly? I bet there are thousands of systems out there that will run for years but the homeowner will not have gotten the full use of the equipment they spent a ton of money for. Look at our install. We went from baseboard heat and 2 window units to central air. Our system right now uses less electricity, is a ton quieter, and is very convenient. Our ignorant view, and the one 99.9% of people would say, is that we got a great system installed properly and that is what we would have told all of our friends. Meaningless referral. Yes, all homeowners should read on here BEFORE they get bids. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen and you all should quit *****ing at people for not trusting their techs. If a larger percentage of techs were trustworthy and installs were done properly there wouldn't be a trust issue. You all talk about referrals. You are forgeting the referrals THIS PLACE will generate for a more highly trained and ethical HVAC workforce. Help the people who come on here and they will tell ALL OF THEIR FRIENDS about what they have learned and the public as a whole will demand more from their installers driving up demand for you guys that are highly trained and well paid.

[NewUser75]

Not until Newuser75 and Mr. Billpro kiss and make up.:p :o

Is he hot?

[BigJon3475]

Im Im im getting sick from all the gayness....(ballot of ricky bobby) (joking also by the way)

[yorkdude]

Dam...Thats all i used to do...Braze, pressurize system to 120 psig w/nitrogen,blow off,pull vaccuum to 29hg,charge system. BUT NOW, this company im working for doesnt believe in nitrogen. they pull a vaccuum and let it sit for 10 min, and assume that since the gauge didnt move, that there is no leaks...In sufficient.

[Shophound]

Dam...Thats all i used to do...Braze, pressurize system to 120 psig w/nitrogen,blow off,pull vaccuum to 29hg,charge system. BUT NOW, this company im working for doesnt believe in nitrogen. they pull a vaccuum and let it sit for 10 min, and assume that since the gauge didnt move, that there is no leaks...In sufficient.

Just think about the "good ol' days" when R22 lineset sweeps were the norm. After all the brazing was done, the lineset was swept out with 22 to "purge the air out". Next, one manifold valve was closed off , bottle flipped upside down...let 'er rip!

Only in a nightmare would I now do that! :D

[yorkdude]

Yeah, i never got a chance to enjoy those times...Im just not used to doing work like that..i lost my license and job, and had to downsize in companies

[timebuilder]

I guess that was mainly my fault. I read a ton of threads on here before I registered and I was apalled at how homeowners who want some information (admittedly, too late at times) get slammed by some of you all for simply questioning their installers who for all you know is the slickest rip off artist in the community. Honestly, I want an answer on this one. How many homeowners do you think would tell you their installer wired their system so that it heats and cools but does not utilize the variable speed air handler and 2 stage heat pump properly? I bet there are thousands of systems out there that will run for years but the homeowner will not have gotten the full use of the equipment they spent a ton of money for. Look at our install. We went from baseboard heat and 2 window units to central air. Our system right now uses less electricity, is a ton quieter, and is very convenient. Our ignorant view, and the one 99.9% of people would say, is that we got a great system installed properly and that is what we would have told all of our friends. Meaningless referral. Yes, all homeowners should read on here BEFORE they get bids. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen and you all should quit *****ing at people for not trusting their techs. If a larger percentage of techs were trustworthy and installs were done properly there wouldn't be a trust issue. You all talk about referrals. You are forgeting the referrals THIS PLACE will generate for a more highly trained and ethical HVAC workforce. Help the people who come on here and they will tell ALL OF THEIR FRIENDS about what they have learned and the public as a whole will demand more from their installers driving up demand for you guys that are highly trained and well paid.

I'm just curious.

On what basis do you assert that a large number of systems are incorrectly installed, and that their owners are not getting full use? A story on AOL? A handful of people who posted threads here? A personal belief based on cultural decay?

This site is not for consumers to hook up with techs. If that's what you want, you will probably be disappointed.

I have always appreciated clients who have reasonable questions for me, but not those who start with, "I found this on the web..."

[mikelcs]

It's sad this is such an issue!!! Trane should have big ass stickers on the equipment that have to be removed which detail a brazing and evacuation/charge procedure that should be the same for all installations.

What is sad is that sometimes it seems that this type of service is becoming the industry standard.why should the manufacturer be responsible for teaching basics with visual aids like a big ass sticker? we get guys that come in with 5 or more years of verified experience that don't know squat about doing things right. the trade school enrollment continues to drop and as a result, at certian schools, students are getting rushed through with inadequate training. i don't know how to get young people interested in this industry, but i know that we have to teach them the right things when they get here. there is a lot to be said for the "old school" way.

[d_griff]

i just dont think the schools are good enough.they make you feel lost in a matter of weeks and if you get lost in the beginning its all down hill. wheni graduated tech school back in 99 there was over 30 students in the class.less then 10 of us got job placement.ive seen guys since..one works at the hope depot..the other works at mcdonalds,..and im not lyin..mcdonalds.

[dash]

I somewhat agree with Newuser75.

We find jobs that were never right on a daily basis.Industry surveys by Pros show that over 50% of homes are ,under or oversized,under or overcharged,have excessive duct leakage and,have undersized duct systems.

I know NCI members find tons of systems ,with one or more of the above poblems,if those problems didn't exist,there would be no need for NCI.

This site used to be more consumer friendly,not sure why that changed ,but it did.Now there's always room for a littte humor,and that still exists.

I don't mind homeowners venting about what happened with there system,and what they were told by so called Pros,as long as they don't paint us all with the same brush.I have enjoyed being part of the resolution to many problems that are brought to this site,and hope to continue to do so.

[timebuilder]

I somewhat agree with Newuser75.

We find jobs that were never right on a daily basis.Industry surveys by Pros show that over 50% of homes are ,under or oversized,under or overcharged,have excessive duct leakage and,have undersized duct systems.

I know NCI members find tons of systems ,with one or more of the above poblems,if those problems didn't exist,there would be no need for NCI.

This site used to be more consumer friendly,not sure why that changed ,but it did.Now there's always room for a littte humor,and that still exists.

I don't mind homeowners venting about what happened with there system,and what they were told by so called Pros,as long as they don't paint us all with the same brush.I have enjoyed being part of the resolution to many problems that are brought to this site,and hope to continue to do so.

Certainly, you would be in a position to report about what you, as in individual in the business, would "see every day." Perhaps this needs to be viewed in the context of what percentage of units you see every day. Do NCI members see half the installed units in America over a period of a year? One percent? One one-thousandth of one percent?

Now, if you or NCI sees "x" improperly installed systems every day, does that extrapolate to a national statistic?

Are the values being used to determine if a system is "proper" based on a rigid standard, or does opinion provide most of the value judgment?

Do the 50% of homes mentioned above represent an installation using standards that were created by a builder, architect, or salesman, rather than an HVAC contractor or technician?

And, if one is a homeowner, what is the basis for the assertion that systems are not being "properly" installed?

Perhaps we need to visit the difference between something being "right" and something being "optimal."

[NewUser75]

I'm just curious.

On what basis do you assert that a large number of systems are incorrectly installed, and that their owners are not getting full use? A story on AOL? A handful of people who posted threads here? A personal belief based on cultural decay?

This site is not for consumers to hook up with techs. If that's what you want, you will probably be disappointed."

I base it on the fact that only 1 out of 1000 people are bright enough to come on here and figure out something is wrong even though they have heat and cooling. Now, since there are a lot of those kind of posts on here that means there are a ton of systems that are not right.

I wasn't talking about consumers hooking up with techs. I was talking about techs EDUCATING consumers and then them telling their friends thus raising the bar for all techs therefore raising standards and pay since more techs will have to have more training and do a better job.

[Mr Bill]

I somewhat agree with Newuser75.

We find jobs that were never right on a daily basis.Industry surveys by Pros show that over 50% of homes are ,under or over sized,under or overcharged,have excessive duct leakage and,have undersized duct systems.




And I agree with you somewhat there, but you can bet it's not the majority of Pro. shops responsible for this, it's the shops that do nothing but new installations using illegals for labor just wanted to get the story straight. :D

[Mr Bill]

Do the 50% of homes mentioned above represent an installation using standards that were created by a builder, architect, or salesman, rather than an HVAC contractor or technician?


Yes all of the above, and might I add 90% are using illegals to do the new homes because there is no money in new installs for the majority of us, in plain english we "real" Pro's are mopping up after the new homes are built latter on down the road when it's time to change equipment again.

[davidr]

And I agree with you somewhat there, but you can bet it's not the majority of Pro. shops responsible for this, it's the shops that do nothing but new installations using illegals for labor just wanted to get the story straight. :D


Have to respectfully disagree with you Bill, the systems operating at 50% to 60% of their rated capacity is not discriminatory.

We used to fall right into this category & have always had a reputation for doing great work as well as being professional, problem is we weren't measuring the systems we installed like we should have been.

Too many variables are assumed & because a Manual J & D are performed it is assumed the system will automatically work like it was designed.


If the BTU's don't get from the equipment to the building envelope in the proper quantities we have not delivered what we said we were going to.

[captube]

I lay most of the blame of shoddy RNC on the builders. When it comes to HVAC it's all about bottom dollar, a good contractor can not compete.
I do RNC and when a builder hires me I tell them how the HVAC will be done, they don't tell me how to do it. (i loose jobs all the time with the attitude problem). But the work i get is usually custom homes where i deal a lot with the actual customer.
Bottom line it's not just HVAC, hack builders hide a lot with drywall and it just doesn't show up the first hot day.

[Mr Bill]

Have to respectfully disagree with you Bill, the systems operating at 50% to 60% of their rated capacity is not discriminatory.

We used to fall right into this category & have always had a reputation for doing great work as well as being professional, problem is we weren't measuring the systems we installed like we should have been.



Well I don't disagree with me come to Houston and just look at all the new homes going up and see the trucks sitting out front and the folks doing the jobs.

And just because you used to fall into that category don't mean the majority did, I know many Pro shops here that have never fell into that category "why" because most can compete with the cheap labor and never have been able to here.

[Mr Bill]

I lay most of the blame of shoddy RNC on the builders. When it comes to HVAC it's all about bottom dollar, a good contractor can not compete.



There you go my thoughts exactly, especially in Houston "PLEASE" don't blame it on the Pro shops that is not correct info at all. :D
And if your a Pro shop and used to or still do this kind of work then you should be ashamed of yourself.

[davidr]

Well I don't disagree with me come to Houston and just look at all the new homes going up and see the trucks sitting out front and the folks doing the jobs.

And just because you used to fall into that category don't mean the majority did, I know many Pro shops here that have never fell into that category "why" because most can compete with the cheap labor and never have been able to here.

Let me ask you a question Bill how many BTU's did the last system you installed deliver versus what the equipment was rated for at the conditions tested?

[Mr Bill]

Let me ask you a question Bill how many BTU's did the last system you installed deliver versus what the equipment was rated for at the conditions tested?

Well I would have to say that would only happen in a lab so that is "not" a real world question, but wrong size duct, return,charge, copper,and air leaks because of the labor being used today is more of a logical question.

[davidr]

Well I would have to say that would only happen in a lab so that is "not" a real world question, but wrong size duct, return,charge, copper,and air leaks because of the labor being used today is more of a logical question.


It is most certainly a "real world" question as the operating capacities of the systems we install can be measured & plotted against the manufacturers engineering data.

If we don't measure the systems we install it is a guess as to if they are operating as they should.

Picking a scapegoat doesn't change this fact.

[NewUser75]

It is most certainly a "real world" question as the operating capacities of the systems we install can be measured & plotted against the manufacturers engineering data.

If we don't measure the systems we install it is a guess as to if they are operating as they should.

Picking a scapegoat doesn't change this fact.

Geeks rule! Data. It's all about data. Data leads you to the truth, even if it is ugly.

[Mr Bill]

Geeks rule! Data. It's all about data. Data leads you to the truth, even if it is ugly.


Well Mrs. Geek if geeks rule why don't you answer his question. :eek:
I can answer his question on all my jobs but it's not the point here the point here is that Dave is protecting the illegals and if the truth be known I bet he is mexican.

[Mr Bill]

Geeks rule! Data. It's all about data. Data leads you to the truth, even if it is ugly.


I can sure tell you don't believe in creation if you think data leads you to the truth, data leads you to the truth now only a scientist would say that. :D

[NewUser75]

What's wrong with teaching immigrants how to use complicated meters and do intricate data analysis? I'll take a smart immigrant over the local bubba tech any day. Do realize I am joking. I do not support illegal immigration.

[NewUser75]

I can sure tell you don't believe in creation if you think data leads you to the truth, data leads you to the truth now only a scientist would say that. :D

Wow, that's a leap! You really don't want to start that discussion do you? All I have to say on that is people who don't believe the highly trained and educated scientists who give you evolutionary science sure seem to believe the higly trained and educated scientists who give us MRI's, chemotherapy drugs, and all the rest of the highly complicated "miracles" of modern medicine. Ask all your friends how a microwave actually works. Next ask them to explain evolutionary theory with an emphasis on biochemistry. Just doesn't work either way does it?

[Mr Bill]

highly complicated "miracles" of modern medicine.

Now thats the biggest laugh you given me all day thanks! :D :D when is the last time you read the side effects of all this modern medicine? with most of it I would rather deal with the ailment than the cure.
Personally I can't relate I use alternative medicine's.

[NewUser75]

What alternative medicine will tell you what type of tumor is inside your brain, or if your leg is broken? I am a huge believer in alternative medicine, but where modern science lags in some areas, like asthma and arthritis, it truly excels at trauma. You don't want alternative medicine if you fall off a roof and get pierced with a steel pipe.

[Mr Bill]

Ask all your friends how a microwave actually works. Next ask them to explain evolutionary theory with an emphasis on biochemistry. Just doesn't work either way does it?

Ask your scientist friends these questions and when you have the answers get back to me. :rolleyes:

How and Where Did Life on Earth Arise?
What Determines Species Diversity?
What Genetic Changes Made Us Uniquely Human?
How Are Memories Stored and Retrieved?
What Are the Limits of Conventional Computing?


Just a few easy ones here for "any" decent scientist in my opinion.

[Mr Bill]

You don't want alternative medicine if you fall off a roof and get pierced with a steel pipe.


No I would rather the hospital give me morphine for a week so
when I get out of the Hospital I will be hooked on pain killers
for life that is what I would rather do. :rolleyes:

[hvaclover]

in my experience,holding a vacuum is not a good method of leak checking. especially after only 10 minutes. pressure will be a better indicator, and at least one hour is a better time frame..

BINGO.... RIGHT ON THE MONEY

[hvaclover]

nope... NO NITRO... Had to go back to the shop for it.

All welds done without nitro in the system too.


Hear a lot about nitro usage here. But the most important factor is how well the guy brazes in the first place. An over heated braze can't be saved by anything, even nitro.

[NewUser75]

Ask your scientist friends these questions and when you have the answers get back to me. :rolleyes:

How and Where Did Life on Earth Arise?
What Determines Species Diversity?
What Genetic Changes Made Us Uniquely Human?
How Are Memories Stored and Retrieved?
What Are the Limits of Conventional Computing?


Just a few easy ones here for "any" decent scientist in my opinion.

Actually, all of my friends know how a microwave works. Simple physics. As for your other questions, there are varying degrees of accuracy for those questions. Anyone who thinks that because something isn't currently known means it can never be known is naive. A good simple example is how a bee flies. I actually remember a girl in middle school telling me that science didn't know how a bee flew so that was evidence of god. When a great article was in Discover magazine detailing the vortices that allow bees to fly, I gave her the magazine and asked if it was now evidence there was no god? Her new answer was that knowing how god does something doesn't negate his existence. I just shook my head and went on.

[Mr Bill]

Hear a lot about nitro usage here. An over heated braze can't be saved by anything, even nitro.

No way! Nitro is the miracle cure for that I thought. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/dunno.gif

[NewUser75]

BINGO.... RIGHT ON THE MONEY

Oohh, pretty.

[NewUser75]

No way! Nitro is the miracle cure for that I thought. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/dunno.gif

You've been buying and inhaling NO instead of N2 haven't you?:rolleyes:

[jrbenny]

Well I would have to say that would only happen in a lab so that is "not" a real world question, but wrong size duct, return,charge, copper,and air leaks because of the labor being used today is more of a logical question.
I assure that it's a 'real' world question. Your 'real' world system should perform at 'lab' conditions IF your duct system is delivering the air flow without leaking to/from the unconditioned spaces.

I was on a job this week. Kept tripping head pressure in heating. Worked 'great' in cooling. They were chasing a refrigerant circuit issue. Duct work 'looked' good. Put flow hoods on registers. 600, 900, 1300, and 1500 CFM on 4 5-ton systems.

If you don't measure performance, you don't know performance. Period.

[Mr Bill]

You've been buying and inhaling NO instead of N2 haven't you?:rolleyes:


Yes now that is the best thing scientist have invented. :eek:

[hvaclover]

Oohh, pretty.

OOOhh thSTOP it, you ThSAVAGE!:p

[Mr Bill]

If you don't measure performance, you don't know performance. Period.

You should have a poll with on how many actually do this here and if they say they do ask them to explain how they went about it,and quit picking on me just because I am have the B@alls enough to get involved in these debates, don't mean I don't know how to do this stuff. And for the record we have Nitro in all our trucks, but does the tech use it is another story, I personally don't have the time to monitor all my techs and I don't know many owners that do.

[NewUser75]

And for the record we have Nitro in all our trucks, but does the tech use it is another story, I personally don't have the time to monitor all my techs and I don't know many owners that do.

But weren't you the one harping on trust? If you hired trained people or trained them yourself and you TRUSTED them, wouldn't you KNOW they are using nitro and following your rules?

[dngrsone]

Anyone who thinks that because something isn't currently known means it can never be known is naive.

http://xs209.xs.to/xs209/06476/eh.gif So, what you're saying is that, some day, one can know both the exact position and exact energy of a particle?

:rolleyes:

[hvaclover]

Nitro! Nitro! Doesn't anybody use an electronic leak detector any more?

[hvaclover]

http://xs209.xs.to/xs209/06476/eh.gif So, what you're saying is that, some day, one can know both the exact position and exact energy of a particle?

:rolleyes:


Sure. That was covered extensively in Finestine's Theory of Actuality and Irremovable Static Thorium.

[Mr Bill]

But weren't you the one harping on trust? If you hired trained people or trained them yourself and you TRUSTED them, wouldn't you KNOW they are using nitro and following your rules?


Sure and I trust them! I am not going to keep up this stupid little debate with you until your scientists answer my questions I ask you to get me the answers for, when you have all those answers I will figure your worth wasting my mind on, debate will continue when you arrive with the answers to my questions I posed to your scientists, now someone else can take over this debate with "Mr Know It All" :D
Personally I think this thread is ready for ARP.

hvaclover started a thread in the general section "Happiness Is" well Happiness to me is when I stay out of the residential section for a month or two.

[NewUser75]

http://xs209.xs.to/xs209/06476/eh.gif So, what you're saying is that, some day, one can know both the exact position and exact energy of a particle?

:rolleyes:

Didn't you watch Star Trek? That's what the Heisenberg Compensators are for! Actually, there was just an article in Scientific American awhile back on teleporting. Scientists have succeeded in teleporting individual photons without having to measure their exact energy and location. Sort of like cheating Heisneberg.

[dngrsone]

Sure. That was covered extensively in Finestine's Theory of Actuality and Irremovable Static Thorium.

http://xs34.xs.to/pics/05252/icon_rofl.gif

[3-phaze]

uh i can't believe no one has mentioned the real reason
nitrogen is on the truck-- to blow out Drains!!!!!!!bwahahahaahaha:p

[davidr]

You should have a poll with on how many actually do this here and if they say they do ask them to explain how they went about it,and quit picking on me just because I am have the B@alls enough to get involved in these debates, don't mean I don't know how to do this stuff. And for the record we have Nitro in all our trucks, but does the tech use it is another story, I personally don't have the time to monitor all my techs and I don't know many owners that do.


Most contractors don't measure performance because they either don't care or they are stuck in the thinking of they are "Pros".
Many times the inmates run the asylum which appears to be the case with your last post.

Where you came up with the idea I am a Mexican & support illegal labor is a new one on me.
I don't venture to ARP, from the looks of your responses it looks as though you might want to go back there & fling dung at some of those guys.

[Airmechanical]

My apologies not combustibles.....noncondensables. I was under the impression air in the system was called combustibles because oxygen under pressure is explosive



humm! did you think an oxygen tank is explosive, i guess if ya mixxed some oil in with that oxy you would get KAPOW! :eek:



.

[kubota]

Man did this thread take a pitiful turn.

That's because someone having some HVAC work done decided to question what the hack guy (oops I meant hvac guy) was doing.

[Mr Bill]

That's because someone having some HVAC work done decided to question what the hack guy (oops I meant hvac guy) was doing.

never mind wrong thread.

[NewUser75]

That's because someone having some HVAC work done decided to question what the hack guy (oops I meant hvac guy) was doing.

You're behind. We made up. We're snuffing NO and kissing now while discussing epistemology.

[timebuilder]

I base it on the fact that only 1 out of 1000 people are bright enough to come on here and figure out something is wrong even though they have heat and cooling. Now, since there are a lot of those kind of posts on here that means there are a ton of systems that are not right.

I wasn't talking about consumers hooking up with techs. I was talking about techs EDUCATING consumers and then them telling their friends thus raising the bar for all techs therefore raising standards and pay since more techs will have to have more training and do a better job.

"Only one out of 100 people bright enough to come on here and figure out something is wrong" is, I suppose, a self-identification of being one of those bright sparks. I would place the burden of meeting the educational needs of a buyer with the person selling them the equipment, not the likelihood that they will do several weeks of website research to determine suitability.

I believe the majority of work done is according to the design most folks are given to install in new construction, and according to what advice the retrofit or replacement purchasing homeowner will agree to pay to have performed.

In other words, I believe the quality of almost everything is driven by the consumer. I do not believe that there is a vast wasteland of poor quality HVAC work today. Some, sure, but not as large as opined here.

[kubota]

You're behind. We made up. We're snuffing NO and kissing now while discussing epistemology.

So sorry.

[hvaclover]

So sorry.

Psst, hey Kabouki, that big fancy word they threw at you means they're GAY!

[kubota]

Psst, hey Kabouki, that big fancy word they threw at you means they're GAY!

hacklover, I think you are confused....or retarded.

[BigJon3475]

humm! did you think an oxygen tank is explosive, i guess if ya mixxed some oil in with that oxy you would get KAPOW! :eek:



.

An explosion is a very fast chemical reaction. Oxygen, if contained by
itself in a non-reactive environment (say, for instance, in a glass
container) is not explosive. However, if provided with an agent with which
to react, ie, anything we'd call flammable, it is highly reactive. If you
mix hydrogen and oxygen in a container and provide a source of heat, you'll
definitely get a "bang for your buck". Any mixture of fuel and oxidizer can be explosive; gunpowder is an example
(the oxidizer is saltpeter), as are fuel-air explosives which are exactly
similar to what goes on in the cylinders of your car (air is mixed with fine
droplets of fuel, then ignited) on a much larger scale. Even asphalt (which is a mixture of hydrocarbon tar with gravel) can explode
if soaked in liquid oxygen.

So the question is when mixed with chemicals in refrigerant and oils.....Does it not go boom? I only brought up combustibles because I have heard it called that before when you have air in the system.

[hvaclover]

hacklover, I think you are confused....or retarded.

Wow, Kaboukie, your're sayin' Im confused and you're runnin' around with the screen name of a GAY JAPANESE performer?

Now THAT"S RETARDED.:D :D :D :eek:

[NewUser75]

That's kabuki. Kubota is a tractor and Japanese surname.

[timebuilder]

That's kabuki. Kubota is a tractor and Japanese surname.

When I was growing up, our International Harvester dealer was very propserous.

Now, they sell more Kubotas than they sell the IH/Case.

They are a great little tractor, too. ;)

[will 2]

Real tractors are green. http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[oldgoat]

Are you talking Oil pump dry nitrogen? or water pumped dry nitrogen? or is there a differance?:rolleyes:

[timebuilder]

Real tractors are green. :D

I had pictures of those green tractors on my wall when I was 11....

[will 2]

OK Oldgoat, you've sparked my curiosity. What info you hiding ?
And is it possible to have 'soggy nitrogen' ?


Timebuilder, just poking fun. Both are fine machines.

[Defrost]

I was able to discuss matter with tech and he did vacuum after the nitro pressure test.

He thinks nitro pressure test is just for leaks but I've read here that it's also for cleaning/drying? He never does the nitro pressure test and doesn't carry nitro.

You need a new tech.