question about Unions

[wolfstrike]

(for the record i don't really agree with union politics , so no need to scold me on that :) )


do unions supply steady work?


i'm getting ready to ditch this rinky-dink company i just got hired at and go union,

but the problem is , i heard of some kid, who knew nothing, who got hired at 14 bucks an hour , the only problem is , i heard he's not getting that , he's getting UP TO 14 per hour.

...so he's making less, but i can't find out the details.


any info would be great, thanks.

[HVAC Teacher]

Haven't missed a day in 23 years! More OT than I know what to do with. Minimum scale is $28.75 on the check (no good techs work for that). $42.00 total package (401, health, vision, dental......).

[sabre11134]

Worked non union for many years,Joined the union and would not go back non union.most techs will get above scale. Just keep in mind that your employer pays for your benifits ,non union you generally have to pay for your insurance and 401K. Good luck

[slimwoodie]

new mechanic, always gonna get the layoff ...

[wolfstrike]

SOLD!


well, i worked for some senior techs who were earning 300 to 400 per day

but i have nothing but problems from companies, i doubt they'll want to pay me that when i reach "journeymen" level

[merken1]

The union scale ($14 or what-ever) is the mininum that they can pay you. They can pay more, but not less. Your problem is going to be getting enough hours to make 40 per week. As the new man you will probably be the first sent home.

[HVAC Teacher]

A little advice:Always look busy! The first ones to work short hours are the ones standing around waiting to be told what to do.

[WooWhooo77]

every company is rinky dink.just play the game better then them.<remember that you never hear about the postive but negative>bosses suck gooood luck

[supertek65]

I work in Kansas City and make $52.00 hr.
$36.00 on check and about 16 an hour towards benefits and retirement.
Really 36+8 is actually the cash value.
$8 is directly to me stocks and pension!
everything else is towards medical and stuff.
never missed a day never missed an HOUR

[absrbrtek]

Why? The seniority clauses have all gone away in the service end. Please expand on that thought.
new mechanic, always gonna get the layoff ...

[absrbrtek]

Never missed a day of work in 30 years unless I wanted too. Its just like non union, if you suck you'll get laid off when they don't need warm body around anymore. JMHO

[shaun66]

my local has no seniority clause, clause is - work assigned based on skill set - or something of the like, layoff, if needed goes to poor mechanic, not junior mechanic. as it stands now poor mechanics cant be laid off either, more work than available employees

[berg2666]

I also left a non union company and went union and since then(I even attended apprenticeship training) and it has been the best and the knowledge I have gained has showed me that the nonunion companies around here are only out the line there pockets and give a flip about who is doing the job but they are always telling you you took to long.

[wolfstrike]

the current company i'm at hires people off the street, they just want the calls answered , anything that happens after that they don't care about.

[The Penguin]

you learn fast wolfie

go union as soon as you can don't look back

[merken1]

Why? The seniority clauses have all gone away in the service end. Please expand on that thought.

The senority clauses may not be written down, but most shops still honor them. This depends more on the dispatcher more than a contract clause. My dispatcher in Oakland CA ran the calls as she saw fit and if you did not do a good job in her opinon you would go home. She was a hard person to deal with if the work was not done properly. She also believed in senority and the right/responsibility to finish the job you started.

[Ammonianite]

I agree, the union politics thing is no good, but, that said, I really see the need for a strong union within the trade. I have been non-union for most of my 25 plus years in the trade and like many have been victimized by unscrupulous employers. I have been strongly anti-union over the years, but have begun to think that perhaps more of the trade should be unionized, not necessarily for higher wages (although that would be nice), but for protection against the greed and malice that many company owners have when dealing with their front line technicians. I know, not all owners are this way; I have worked for one or two that treated their people with decency and respect. But, talking to many in the non-union portion of the trade, there is indeed a lot of bad things happening in regards to the treatment of the tech. Benefits change (usually slashed) without warning on a periodic basis, the office staff is added to but the front line tech begs for decent equipment or stock.

The only trouble is that the existing union in this location never seems to return calls or expresses interest in adding to their rank and file. I have had several individuals tell me that they could never get the business agent to return calls so they wound up non-union.

[merken1]

The majority of the problems with the unions are self imposed problem. Most of the business managers do not uinderstand how to run a business and do not develope any kind of relationship with the employer or employees.
Generally the apprentice training that is given is low quality and does not seem to be of any importance to the union management. I always felt the the biggest service to the trade was the training of the Tech and the wages/conditions should be a close second to the training aspect.
We have almost no worth while training in my area. The union has a school and I have had complaints that the training was sub-standard from the apprentices we sent to the school. I offered to help with the training and requested to be allowed to sit in and was refused.
The old saving is that you can lead a horse to water , but you can't make it drink seems to apply.:(

[WrenchMan]

(for the record i don't really agree with union politics , so no need to scold me on that :) )


do unions supply steady work?


i'm getting ready to ditch this rinky-dink company i just got hired at and go union,

but the problem is , i heard of some kid, who knew nothing, who got hired at 14 bucks an hour , the only problem is , i heard he's not getting that , he's getting UP TO 14 per hour.

...so he's making less, but i can't find out the details.


any info would be great, thanks.

Finding steady work for you is one of the main reasons they exist. Some locals do a better job than others. And no union is immune to the whims of it's local economy.

Given the choice, I would choose union. Having just wrapped up a 9-month stint working under a white ticket (waiver to allow a non-union employee to pay dues and work for a union employer) I have a new-found appreciation for unions. Or at least the UA. Better wages & benefits, better treatment, much better work environment, and wages are definitely not limited to scale. And since you don't spend half your time and energy dealing with office politics, you can focus solely on being the best mechanic possible. If you're good, you'll stay busy and advance your career. If not, you'll likely end up warming a bench.

Having had a taste of life in the union sector, I've made the decision to organize in, but in a different state. I'm communicating with the organizer right now, and getting my ducks in a row to pass their state journeyman's.

As for the kid you mentioned, my guess is he's either a helper or an apprentice. I don't think there's a local in the country that would negotiate $14 dollars an hour for their journeymen.

[acam027]

new mechanic, always gonna get the layoff ...

I don't know about all that. If you get in the apprenticeship you are less likely to get laid off. 1. you are an investment and 2. you are cheap labor. And about the hours you are more likely to get more hours than some journeyman because of the cost. If youre really worried about hours go to a commercial refrigeration company. Good Luck!:D

[slimwoodie]

I don't know about all that. If you get in the apprenticeship you are less likely to get laid off. 1. you are an investment and 2. you are cheap labor. And about the hours you are more likely to get more hours than some journeyman because of the cost. If youre really worried about hours go to a commercial refrigeration company. Good Luck!:D

Notice ...
I said .." Mechanic" ..

noooobody want's a guy just outta his time ...
..

[d_griff]

Notice ...
I said .." Mechanic" ..

noooobody want's a guy just outta his time ...
..

why not take a guy just out of his time,if he is smart and has the ability to pick stuff up quickly,you hire him and train him and dump the old guy with a bad attitude who has all the callbacks..
union depends on the company,my first union contracter was worse then any nonunion contracter i worked for IMO,some guys liked it but i didnt get along well with my manager..,and as an apprentice at the time i was obligated,by a waiver i signed,to stay(which is one downfall of my union,apprentices cant solicite their own work,unless you make a serious case.).
i had to basically beg to leave,and it didnt work,i waited till we got slow and lost a major contract and started crap with my service manager and was allowed to move to another company..but my point is this,you can have a company the sucks in either sector,you can get laid off in either sector,you cant get the strength of backing that you do in the union,every union company that has a history of screwing up in my area pays a bond to the union..so if they fall behind on bennies or vaca or annuity,,the union has a place to kick it up from if the contracter fails to in a certain time..
if you get laid off,you hold your bennies for up to 6 months so your not left for dead.if you cant find a job in 6 months,you need to go to HDepot..
it depends on management of the company,not union or nonunion.but at least the union has a standard for the tech...safety and pay wise..

[sabre11134]

The union scale ($14 or what-ever) is the mininum that they can pay you. They can pay more, but not less. Your problem is going to be getting enough hours to make 40 per week. As the new man you will probably be the first sent home.wher do you get 14$ per hour for scale, I see you are in clearwater.

[d_griff]

wher do you get 14$ per hour for scale, I see you are in clearwater.

he probable means 14$ an hour is first year apprentice wage,its over 14 here for the first 90 days,then you jump up,there is now way he can mean 14 an hour j-man scale

[merken1]

The fourteen dollars salary comes from the person who started the post. I honestly believe that for a 1st year apprentice/greenhorn that is not a bad pay scale until he learns the trade. Considering he will receive an education that is worth 10-20 thousand dollars.

I helped negotate the union agreement for the A/C union contract division about three years ago . I was negotatoing for the owner and the negotations were an eye opener. We started the negotation and both sides knew where we were going to end up at, but it took 3 months of twice a week meeting to finally agree to the terms.

I really believe in the union, if they are run properly. I have ran service operations from San Franciso to LA and the men we received from the union were basically good Tech

The main problem I have with unions is when union politics got mixed into the operation. That will destroy any good will or relations that have developed between the union and the owners. Sorry I don't want to sound like I'm against the union, but I'm extremely disappointed in the union situation in FL.

[timebuilder]

Haven't missed a day in 23 years! More OT than I know what to do with. Minimum scale is $28.75 on the check (no good techs work for that). $42.00 total package (401, health, vision, dental......).

What city are you in?

[Ammonianite]

Just had a service mtg today. They are doing away with our insurance as we know it in lieu of one of these High Deductible policies (i.e. $6000).
I don't know what I am going to do. I have a daughter who needs a new wheelchair and has to have annual CT scans to make sure the fluid levels are stable in her brain. That 6K has to come out of my pocket. (Oh yeah, the company is going to donate $250 to get us started. Thanks.)

This coupled with the other cuts in benefits really hurts. It's not like the company is losing money. They keep bragging about how well they are doing and they keep adding more people to the office staff.

I kept thinking all day, this is why we need unions (and I was always a strong
anti-union man!). Without unions, the worker is "screwed". Corporate greed shows no ends- they can never get enough, there can never be any satisfaction and there can never be sharing of the wealth with the mindless front line worker.

Greater and greater burden is put on the worker (heck, we even have to do quotes for the office as well as service work) with ever diminishing returns. What can you do and where can you go? The only answer is the union, but the unions have got to expand and become effective once again for there to be any impact on a hired lackey like myself. Companies are no longer held balanced by the unions, hence, they seem to look at every worker as "dime-a-dozen".

Let's hope, as corporate profits continue to increase and the wages/benefits of the working man decrease, that there will be a renewed interest in unions.

[softtail]

Ammon.

If your medical is that bad, what about your pension? What does a non-union guy do for retirement or medical coverage when he retires? Hard to believe the company is cutting benefits and stating they are profitable, pretty bold move.

The union HVAC trade has steady full time work for decent HVAC mechanics, you could consider contacting the local pipefitters union to organize your profittable non-union employer. The worst that could happen is the union would put you to work at a union outfit with good benefits and probably better pay. Or contact local union HVAC contractors who are looking for talented experienced mechanics, get hired, and they'll sponsor your membership in the union. The UA union has a directive to organize HVAC mechanics at this time because the union trade is growing and there is a lack of people to hire - nobody on the bench but a few bums with issues.

All of the union HVAC mechanics I know work full time, 2,100 to 3,000 hours per year, at $24.00 to $32.00 per hour (or more) plus full company paid family benefits. The decent union guys can leave one contractor today and have several job offers the next day. Usually they have job offers before they leave, modivating the employers to pay over the rate, holidays, and/or vacation time.

I can see being anti-union if your doing better non-union, but most non-union guys won't talk about their wages or benefits openly. Why not?

Worried about union politics, the union politics are trying to counter the powerfully well fund non-union politics that are holding the working guy down, just like you stated above. I'm more concerned with the pre-mediated unethical non-union politics which is hurting the average middle class worker and his/her families - union or non-union. Worried about politics, you just lost $3.00 per hour with that change to a $6,000.00 medical deductible per year. I'll bet your company plays politics with company monies paid to political parties, but can't come up with a decent raise for their employees.

Do what's best for your daughter, family, and yourself. Set your priorities.

Live by that closing statement on your posts, it works.

[Ammonianite]

Retirement? Ha! Ha! Ha! I am going to call Local 392 on Monday to get some information and go from there. Thanks for the info and encouragement.
I appreciate it. Man, it was like I was in shock when they rolled this thing out (me and a lot of other guys- it was the quietest service meeting that I have ever been in. Then when we started to ask pointed questions, they would sidestep and never give a concrete answer on the many quid pro quos of the policy).

Man, it was hard finishing the day's work after the meeting. I felt like I had the wind knocked out of me. I was kind of depressed. You give 110%, often above and beyond the call of duty, you calm irate customers, you generate sales leads for the sales department, you facilitate construction projects, and yet, you receive this kind of treatment, along with all the other reductions in fringe benefits that have hit the service department specifically over these past few years. Incredible.


But perhaps this apparent bad situation will be a catalyst for change as I investigate organized labor and dispense with my lifelong prejudices (Many in my family hated the unions when I was growing up and I was perhaps unduly influenced). Thanks once again.

[absrbrtek]

Are you near Cincy and what is your commercial experience? I may have a lead for you if your qualified and want to work union.
Retirement? Ha! Ha! Ha! I am going to call Local 392 on Monday to get some information and go from there. Thanks for the info and encouragement.
I appreciate it. Man, it was like I was in shock when they rolled this thing out (me and a lot of other guys- it was the quietest service meeting that I have ever been in. Then when we started to ask pointed questions, they would sidestep and never give a concrete answer on the many quid pro quos of the policy).

Man, it was hard finishing the day's work after the meeting. I felt like I had the wind knocked out of me. I was kind of depressed. You give 110%, often above and beyond the call of duty, you calm irate customers, you generate sales leads for the sales department, you facilitate construction projects, and yet, you receive this kind of treatment, along with all the other reductions in fringe benefits that have hit the service department specifically over these past few years. Incredible.


But perhaps this apparent bad situation will be a catalyst for change as I investigate organized labor and dispense with my lifelong prejudices (Many in my family hated the unions when I was growing up and I was perhaps unduly influenced). Thanks once again.

[Ammonianite]

Yep. I am currently working in the greater Cincinnati area.

[Ammonianite]

I've been doing HVACR for around twenty years. Commercial and Industrial
including Ammonia Refrigeration (hence, Ammonianite).

The company that I work for used to be a decent place to work but has steadily reduced all benefits for the front-line personnel over the last few years. The insurance debacle is just the latest and most dramatic of many.

The really interesting thing is that they (management) knows that they are going to lose people. They posted want ads a week or so before the service meeting in the newspaperand on the Internet and then after the meeting began handing out these magnetic signs to stick on your truck advertising that they are hiring (I got out of there before they could hand one to me!).

The kicker to all this is that these cuts would be understandable if the company was losing money. In fact, we are told repeatedly how well the organization is doing. Additionally, there is an ever-increasing number of new-hires in the office. The company aficionados continue to jet set around the country to various HVAC events that they so vaingloriously advertise in the company newsletter (which, by the way, does not have hardly any accounts or references to the service department). Unreal.

[Ammonianite]

Good News! A former co-worker called me up yesterday and stated that the union company that he works for is hiring. I called the "head honcho" over there and we are going to meet to see if we can work things out.

If this works out, I will not go back to non-union. As I explained to my former co-worker, I'm tired of being "jerked around" by people that cannot see the benefit of treating their people decently and how that correlates to a productive work environment.

I pray that this works out. It opens up a whole new range of opportunities as well. I mean, you can take classes for free at the union hall (where I'm at now, you have to pay for all your own classes).

[nineball]

If this works out, I will not go back to non-union. As I explained to my former co-worker, I'm tired of being "jerked around" by people that cannot see the benefit of treating their people decently and how that correlates to a productive work environment.

I always hear comments about unions and the politics. THE POLITICS ARE FOR YOU THE WORKER TO BE GIVEN A FAIR WAGE, AND TO SECURE STEADY WORK.

Ammonianite: Good luck to you! ;)

P.S this is informational only not trying to stir the pot. In our contract J-man wage is 37.30/hr that is the minimum they can pay you! All tools/uniforms are supplied by the contractor. Only thing I pay for is Boots socks and underware........ 4.50/hr aditional to the wage goes into a vacation fund which you can pull money out of for anything at anytime....

[nineball]

The really interesting thing is that they (management) knows that they are going to lose people. They posted want ads a week or so before the service meeting in the newspaperand on the Internet and then after the meeting began handing out these magnetic signs to stick on your truck advertising that they are hiring (I got out of there before they could hand one to me!).
Unreal.

Non-union business owners way of thinking is ; Why pay someone 80/hr with benifits when we can find someone younger that we can pay 14/hr and hardly any benifits.. I have nothing against non-union workers I know alot of good ones. Its the business owners ( not all of them are bad) that are plagued with greed and bottom dollar that I dont like. I know of one shop in my area that Is non-union that I would consider working for, they pay there workers a good wage and good benifits.

[shaun66]

company i work for went UA 4 years ago - was bosses desire/idea as he wanted us to have better benes/pension etc

[softtail]

Niveball,

What town are you in?

[nineball]

Niveball,

What town are you in?

Seattle

[softtail]

Ammon,

There may be a job opportunity at Debra-Kuep. - let know if you need more info.

Good luck with your meeting, you won't regret it.


Niveball,

How many service rates do you have in Seattle? Vaca, holidays, on-call pay by the contract? Any thing else progressive per the contract? Just curious, need some ideas for contract time around here. Always helps if another local is already doing it.

[nineball]

Niveball,

How many service rates do you have in Seattle? Vaca, holidays, on-call pay by the contract? Any thing else progressive per the contract? Just curious, need some ideas for contract time around here. Always helps if another local is already doing it.

UA

Not sure what you mean by how many service rates? The rate I posted above was for Refrigeration J-man only. Plumbers, Fitters, Residential HVAC, Building engineers are under a different contract. Vacation is 4.50 per hour adds up to about 150 per week. Holiday pay we dont get, but we do get double time. On-call pay is one we are working on, as of now no stand-by pay is given that should change here hopefully. I'm probably not the best spokes person for the UA Im sure someone else could do better im just a mechanic :o. Over the last 9years we have been consistant on getting what we want when contract time comes around. Almost everyone at my shop on the service side makes over scale with only a few exceptions..

[softtail]

Nineball,

We have two rates, A-rate and B-rate. The A-rate would be your J-rate, but the B-rate is about 80% of the A-rate. Anything over 50 tons pays A-rate per the contract.

Most guys work a split rate or get straight B money, and probably 10 to 20% of the service guys get straight A money. Very few get over the rate.

Despite full employment for the last 25 years for all of the servicemen and the constant growth of union service work in the area, the local still has this split rate thing going. The local caters to the construction side, the construction members control the local. The local seems to sacrifice the servicemen's conditions and pay, to hold up the building trades construction side and make the construction contractors happy with a reduced rate for their service divisions.

The good service guys have to negotiate their own deals on their own, not real union like, but just the way it is.

Seems like the Seattle local has their act together concerning properly representing their service personnel. We're just a little backwards due to the old fitter politics and the lack of servicemen being active in the locals activities.

[nineball]

Nineball,

We have two rates, A-rate and B-rate. The A-rate would be your J-rate, but the B-rate is about 80% of the A-rate. Anything over 50 tons pays A-rate per the contract.

Most guys work a split rate or get straight B money, and probably 10 to 20% of the service guys get straight A money. Very few get over the rate.

Despite full employment for the last 25 years for all of the servicemen and the constant growth of union service work in the area, the local still has this split rate thing going. The local caters to the construction side, the construction members control the local. The local seems to sacrifice the servicemen's conditions and pay, to hold up the building trades construction side and make the construction contractors happy with a reduced rate for their service divisions.

The good service guys have to negotiate their own deals on their own, not real union like, but just the way it is.

Seems like the Seattle local has their act together concerning properly representing their service personnel. We're just a little backwards due to the old fitter politics and the lack of servicemen being active in the locals activities.


Yeah we dont have the split rate like you do. At my local the Fitters and Plumbers control the Union, and thats only because there are more of them than us. Which is ok with me because its a Plumber/Fitter union. Good news, though the HVAC side is steadly getting bigger hopefully over time we will have as many bodys that can vote and be herd. We do have alot of servicemen that are not active in the local also, which is a real bummer because when contract time comes around and only 12-15 HVAC guys show we are out numberd big time and the money gets allocated to whare they want it.:(