Invensys Network 8000 DDC Control System

[flyboypa34]

Hello Everyone -

Let me start by saying that I am NOT an HVAC guy, nor a control person. By necessity I can do a LOT of different things, and this is my latest project after a 2MW UPS plant upgrade :D

I am looking for some advice in dealing with what I am told is an Invensys Network 8000 DDC Control System that has been installed into our data center.

Let me first provide some background. About 5 years ago we took over a failed data center. At the point we took over, we had a full Data Trax system tied onto a Siebo Environmental Controls LNC100 box. Via that connection, I would get a ton of information about our chillers, water pumps, etc.

We did not have much in the data center at the time and had been told by the previous owners that the Siebe control system was actually an Invensys system was working 100%.

After a bit of time we realized that our chillers were not cycling and started the long drawn-out process of attempting to deal with the situation.

We operate 3 approx. 200 TON chillers that feed around 30 CRAC units.

We had been told that the Inventsys control system handled all of the day-to-day operations of rotating chillers, brining chillers on and off line when needed or not needed, turning on and off CRAC units, and providing our Data Trax system with the needed infomation so we could monitor everything.

We called in our main HVAC vendor who looked over the system and told us to contact Eaton to have the unit serviced, they could do nothing with it.

We were put into touch with what we have been told IS THE ONLY VENDOR in our state authorized to work on the Network 8000. We hired them to come out and look over the system.

The nice gentleman came out, hooked a laptop into the LNC100 and after about 2 hours of work said "he would have to get back to us". Immediately after he left, we lost much of the data going from that unit into our Data Trax system. I could no longer tell which chiller was running, which pumps were running and what state my isolator valves were in. Thankfully I still had input and output water temps.

After several fruitless attempts to utilize a different vendor, we once again called out the contractor. We were then told "an entire system evaluation" needs to be completed. Nevermind they were the contractor that installed the units in the first place and had already worked on it. We paid about $2K for the evaluation and they told us it would take another $9K to "fix" the programming of the units.

We paid the $9K and they sent several guys out for two days. We then got an e-mail stating that it would cost an additional $20K to install a front end system so they could complete their programming and bring the system back up to where it would operate everything correctly.

Needless to say I was beyond aggravated at this point. I again attempted to contact other vendors that work on the 8000 and was told the same thing by each of them - sorry only "Insert Contractor Name Here" is allowed to work on your Invensys system where your data center is located, if we work on it we can lose our contract.

So - here I am, getting ready to pull the entire 8000 system out since I refuse to pay good money after bad to a questionable contractor and I am looking for advice.

Is there other contractors that CAN work on the 8000 system without encuring the wrath of Eaton? If there someone here that has worked on them that knows those systems that could at lease provide a second evaluation of the unit?

Is it worth replacing the 8000 with something else all together?


As I said earlier, I am not a control person, but I can find any information if I just know what I am looking for and what questions to ask, so if there is more information (or pictures) needed that what is here, please let me know.

I guess I am just looking for outside information from non-biased folks in the know.


Many Thanks !!

[mikelcs]

where are you located?

[control$]

Problem "chillers were not cycling" - Sounds like programming to me.

Most likely you have a Signal GUI and a few Microzone II's running the plant. All that is required is PSI. (Bet it is already on the computer).
If they are trying to sell you a new front end for a programming issue...well maybe that's why I left BC, SEC, IBC many years ago.
Wish you luck!

[JCI_WHY]

The NW 8000 is a good system but it sounds like your Rep needs some training. I would conatact Invensys and ask them what they think should you pay for a service call and then loose additional data and then be told it will cost you ten times as much to fix. Depending on where you are located I am sure that you could find someone to work on the system. Again ask Invensys what they would recommend that you bash their product or they allow another contractor to work on it.

[Control Man]

Sure charging BIG $ for doing work on a VERY SIMPLE system, been doing it for 20+ years.

Use to be if the local REP did poor work / service on the NW 8000 BARBER COLMAN would send in another rep or factory rep would try and smooth things over , then it was SIEBE they sort of did the same then it was INVENSYS it was a lot worse all you heard was OUR PANELS / OUR SOFTWARE now with TAC who knows.

[JCI_WHY]

Inensys/T.A.C. has a totally closed open system. there NW 8000 is more open than there Lon. They give Lon a bad name

[techhead]

Who will thay be next week

[mbarson]

The NW 8000 system is a good system and very stable when installed and programmed correctly, I work with them for 6 years. With that said it seems that getting quality programming is a real problem. Reps have their customers at their mercy and they have no problem charging outrageous amounts to fix problems. I ended up leaving due to such unethical practices. Many "techs" have very little programming experience, even less HVAC knowledge and get paid less than HVAC service people and the companies charge 120 + per hour for service and the huge mark up on contollers. It's a cash cow for the company. I don't know if there is a good DDC line that won't leave the customer vulnerable to being taken. I would take this opportunity to really evaluated your needs and interview other automation systems and vendors and replace the NW 8000, you don't need to be working with a company that can't or won't get your system running correctly without the "upselling". Like others have said it is most likely bad programming, I used to correct allot of them. The IA line really left much to be desired so do not "upgrade " to that can of worms.

By the way you don't need a front end to program, only PSI.
I would have come out for only 22k!
I am not un-biased, but I know.

Good Luck

[mbarson]

The NW 8000 system is a good system and very stable when installed and programmed correctly, I work with them for 6 years. With that said it seems that getting quality programming is a real problem. Reps have their customers at their mercy and they have no problem charging outrageous amounts to fix problems. I ended up leaving due to such unethical practices. Many "techs" have very little programming experience, even less HVAC knowledge and get paid less than HVAC service people and the companies charge 120 + per hour for service and the huge mark up on contollers. It's a cash cow for the company. I don't know if there is a good DDC line that won't leave the customer vulnerable to being taken. I would take this opportunity to really evaluated your needs and interview other automation systems and vendors and replace the NW 8000, you don't need to be working with a company that can't or won't get your system running correctly without the "upselling". Like others have said it is most likely bad programming, I used to correct allot of them. The IA line really left much to be desired so do not "upgrade " to that can of worms.

[control$]

Don't let them "UPGRADE" you to I/A. The lon stuff is a joke and nw8000 is far easier to work on. Be glad it's NW8000, it at least can be made to work.

[JCI_WHY]

He may already have a combination of NW8000 and IA since it is and LNC. go to whoever installed it at the very least they should be able to provide you with a set of engineering drawings and sequence of op. lol

[flyboypa34]

First of all - thanks for all the quick and good replies.

We purchase a lot of hardware from Eaton - to the tune of almost $1M last year on UPS upgrades and expansion alone for our data center.

So I figured with that kind of buying power, they would be happy to help remove the road blocks that I was having getting the unit looked at and repaired. About 20 emails later, I was proven wrong.

The bottom line was that Eaton flat out refuses to allow another contractor to work on our system. They basically stated that they have a contract that prohibits them from doing so (in so many words) and that we were stuck with our current contractor, like it or not.

:eek:

I say that I was put off does not even begin to explain how I felt after the conversation. I have never had to deal with this type of idiocy within a company where they are willing to lose a lot of business over an inept contractor.

In the end - it is pushing me to get quotes from the 4 or 5 largest control folks in my area (S. CA), but before I finally pull the plug and say good by to the entire system, I figured I would give this one last shot.

Is there any of you folks that know that system inside and out that would be interested in coming out to California and working on our system...? :D

[Ducthman]

Hey Guys,

This man is looking for help.

If there is a modem on the LNC it is not so difficult for a good engineer to help you from distance. Send the schematics by email and it is solved.

[theoldman]

I am a network 8000 expert. I have been programming these systems since they were released in 1988. You do not need a new front-end. If you can get accurate drawings of your system, I can help you. I worked for a Barber-Colman/Seibe/Invensys rep for 19 years, but now work for another contractor. If you give me your phone number, I will call you.

[Control Man]

DUTCHMAN you are correct , if there is a modem to access the system theres not much to correcting a lot of his problems. Nice to have as much info as possible , but you can do a reverse engineering of the job from the data base.

I have done quite a few remote site revamps over the years via modem for the same reason the original poster is looking for help.

OLDMAN you have likely ran across a few sites same as I have since we have both being doing the NW8000 since its introduction ( did you ever work on the NETWORK SUPERVISOR ) that were over programmed. Had 1 a few weeks ago that had well over 200 blocks of programming that were redundant and basically did nothing but look impressive to the systems owner.

[theoldman]

I worked for a Barber-Colman/Seibe/Invensys rep for 19 years until recently, and I have programmed the 8000 since it was released in January of 1988. If you can give me your phone number I will call you.You don't need a new front end.

[flyboypa34]

I worked for a Barber-Colman/Seibe/Invensys rep for 19 years until recently, and I have programmed the 8000 since it was released in January of 1988. If you can give me your phone number I will call you.You don't need a new front end.
theoldman -

Sorry for the delay, was out sick.

My number is 858-576-4272 x 112

Thanks

[weezbo]

to me it sounds wrong to have a system that cannot be monitored and controlled by lap top.

maybe sawzall surgery is due.

[ddc_guru]

Hi,

I am currently in the process of re-commissioning a NW 8000 site with a SIM and LNC modules front-ended by Signal. I have similiar issues with the programming which is why I am re-commissioning the GCM control logic. You will typically find that most of the programming issues are in the GCM units with little programming in the MicroZones. Programming modifications can be done remotely (via. modem, VPN, ect.) as long as someone is on-site to manage the equipment. I will happy to answer your questions or look at your project.

-21 year control guy who works on:
Teletrol eBuilding & Integrator
Johnson Metasys
Trane Summit
Siebe NW 8000
Delta DSC
Andover 256M
OPTO-22 Optomux

[Control Man]

Just cleaned up a MESS , 1 GCM , 30 MZIIs , they had all the PROGRAM in the GCM used the MZIIs as a terminal strip like the old GCS panels, redid the programming using the MZIIS for 90% of it , the GCM for scheduling , point passing ecte. Cleared out over 300 blocks of program from the GCM .

Now if the GCM fails the MZIIs do what they were intended for KEEP OPERATING

MZIIs have quite a few programming capabilities that few programmers utilize.

[incontrol]

I ran across this pretty neat site. They print out visio drawings of the program so you can see it for a couple of bucks. (if you've got a copy)

http://services.smartwaretech.com/

[T/C electrican]

I am a network 8000 expert. I have been programming these systems since they were released in 1988. You do not need a new front-end. If you can get accurate drawings of your system, I can help you. I worked for a Barber-Colman/Seibe/Invensys rep for 19 years, but now work for another contractor. If you give me your phone number, I will call you.

Please call 815-955-5494 I have a Network 8000 that the contractor has walked away from and I am now holding the bag to finish!

[control distributor]

what did you end up doing?

[simsd]

email me at simsd1ca@gmail.com

[d_d_c_jci]

Have LNC-100 with ASD MZ2 controllers on bus1 and trane LON
on bus2. Changed out a couple Trane boards but now they
won't communicate. I believe I need to change the Trane ID in the LNC.
You wouldn't have any literature on how to program the LNC-100,
would you?

[im_in_control]

Have LNC-100 with ASD MZ2 controllers on bus1 and trane LON
on bus2. Changed out a couple Trane boards but now they
won't communicate. I believe I need to change the Trane ID in the LNC.
You wouldn't have any literature on how to program the LNC-100,
would you?

Well your in for a ride on this one.

You will have to use a Network Management Tool such as LonMaker in order to replace the Trane Controllers. If you don't have the original LNS database you will have to go ahead and "learn" the network. Remember to unplug the LonBus from the LNC before you do this "learn" as you may damage it. I managed to damage the neuron chip in a LNC doing this exact thing. As a rule of thumb, whenever you are using a Network Management Tool on the LNC's LonBus it is best to unplug the connector to the LNC.

Once you do the node replace it should start communicating (as long as you did a replace and the new controller ended up with the same node number). If it has the same XIF file then you shouldn't have to do anything further. If it doesn't have the same XIF file then you will have to go through the SIM block and adjust the DATA string. The DATA string is a real big pain.

Good luck and let me know if you need help with the DATA string.

[d_d_c_jci]

Where can I get Lonmaker?

[klrogers]

Where can I get Lonmaker?


http://www.engenuity.com/ is one source

[im_in_control]

LonMaker is rather expensive if you only need it for this one project.

What vendor's product line do you currently use and do they have a Lon Network Management Tool ?? You may be able to use it.

[d_d_c_jci]

The majority of our work has been JCI.
We are just getting started with Alerton.

[st-3]

You almost perfectly described a system I took over in NorCal :)

NW8000, 3x150 Ton Carrier Chillers, 20 Data Air CRACs, Data Trax, etc..

[GLM]

Hey oldman, I need an answer on a network 8000 host system. Looks like I could use your help! Nobody I can find knows anything about my question. Please give me a call at 888-228-5641.GLM

[Control Man]

Whats the question , he is not the only one on here with experience with the NET 8000 system in case he is tyed up and does not get intouch.

[GLM]

hey control man, it would be easier if you called. Its a toll free #. Just hard to explain the problem typing it out.

[Control Man]

Where abouts are you located ( time zone wise ) and whats a good time to call.

[GLM]

I'm in Georgia, EST. Call anytime. Right now would be good.