Keeprite furnace heat exchanger

[lbjgh]

Well my furnace crapped out Sunday night so Monday morning I had a company check the furnace. I was told I had a Keeprite furnace and the heat exchanger failed.... something to do with the eyelets??

Model number inside the furnace is: NUG9075FGA1

Anyway, I was told the heat exchanger was covered under warranty (my home is over ten years old) and that the HVAC company would only charge labour.

It took approximately 2 hours for the repair... what is a reasonable hourly rate?



tx LBJGH

[karsthuntr]

Please read forum rules. No pricing allowed.

[hvaclogic]

How many guys did it take to do the job? Did they walk to the job? Could you have dismantled the furnace and put it back together again and still feel comfortable sleeping there at night?

More money than you can imagine was spent training those guys to do that job plus the cost of insurance and licencing and other overhead expenses. Sounds like you got a bargin.

[lbjgh]

I recently installed my own high efficiency HWT... this stuff really isn't rocket science. Even $100/hr would have been reasonable considering the total bill was for labour only...

I'm not against anyone making a living but they shouldn't have a wooden leg and hook for a hand. :rolleyes:

BTW, I won't contact that company again for any service so I guess they made their profit once... sounds like the big 3 auto industry no?


How many guys did it take to do the job? Did they walk to the job? Could you have dismantled the furnace and put it back together again and still feel comfortable sleeping there at night?

More money than you can imagine was spent training those guys to do that job plus the cost of insurance and licencing and other overhead expenses. Sounds like you got a bargin.

[4l530]

You are comparing installing a water heater to replacing a heat exchanger?
Well, you slap the tank in there, hook up two pipes and a flue...brilliant.
Replacing a heat exchanger, there's a little more to it. You didn't pay the guy(s) for what they did, you paid them for what they knew to do. It probably would've taken you twice the time. Don't forget, you're not just paying their labor, you're also paying the labor for whoever had to deal with the distributor and fill out the warranty paperwork, etc. Not to mention any obstacles they may have been working with or around to do the job.
Sheeeeesh , why do people think we're out to rape them??? You have to make money to run a business!

[hankmcneil]

Why did the original heat exchanger fail PRE-MATURELY? Do you think the "swappers" found and fixed that, cause they're now liable?

[BaldLoonie]

Not unusual to lose HX on that model. Rather a pain to change, usually we send a 2nd pair of hands to keep the primary from falling on the secondary when getting in & out. And yes, they should check temp rise and firing rate to be sure there isn't an external cause for the failure.

[lbjgh]

I brought up this old discussion in the hope I can get some expert advice.

Ever since the heat exchanger was replaced the furnace has been very noisy prior to the furnace blower motor starting up. We asked the original contractor to investigate and he claimed the noise was "normal"... interesting this noise didn't exsist before he opened the furnace up. :rolleyes:

In laymans terms... there is a whirring, grinding noise which is present for about 45-60 seconds before the furnace blower motor starts up. I'll try to record the noise and post a link...

Since I don't trust the original contract I was wondering if there is anything I can replace myself?

Again it's a Keeprite NUG9075FGA1 furnace.

tx LBJGH

[lbjgh]

OK here is the sound clip... http://us.f13.yahoofs.com/bc/47bb73b8_8d21/bc/My+Documents/furnace.mp3?bfjg3uHB9gje_UcP

[I_bend_metal]

I brought up this old discussion in the hope I can get some expert advice.

Ever since the heat exchanger was replaced the furnace has been very noisy prior to the furnace blower motor starting up. We asked the original contractor to investigate and he claimed the noise was "normal"... interesting this noise didn't exsist before he opened the furnace up. :rolleyes:

In laymans terms... there is a whirring, grinding noise which is present for about 45-60 seconds before the furnace blower motor starts up. I'll try to record the noise and post a link...

Since I don't trust the original contract I was wondering if there is anything I can replace myself?

Again it's a Keeprite NUG9075FGA1 furnace.

tx LBJGH


Sorry can't give any DIY info on here. This thread will probably get closed before long. You need to try another service company if you are unhappy with your last one. If you get someone in there and explain the situation to them I am sure they will make you happier than the last one.

[bobb25]

A decent hourly rate is one that pays all company expenses, including trucks, insurance, payroll, and everything else, with enough profit for them to stay in business. Did they have the heat exchanger shipped directly to your house? Probably not. Did they haul it away, and possibly send it back to the factory? Maybe. Did they make sure all seals and gaskets were installed correctly, so that you would continue to wake up every morning? Probably.

A good technician in NYC makes more per hour than my company's service rate.

[lbjgh]

It just ticks me off that I have to repair something the first guy didn't... pay twice for one repair kinda sucks no?

I may just put up with the noise until next fall and get a new furnace through a reputable big box store.


Sorry can't give any DIY info on here. This thread will probably get closed before long. You need to try another service company if you are unhappy with your last one. If you get someone in there and explain the situation to them I am sure they will make you happier than the last one.

[ebierley]

It just ticks me off that I have to repair something the first guy didn't... pay twice for one repair kinda sucks no?

I may just put up with the noise until next fall and get a new furnace through a reputable big box store.

One thing you need to remember is that the two problems could be unrelated except for the timing. You could have two seperate failures or you could have a problem caused by the first repair.

Also realize that the furnace you from the box store is sold and installed by a local contractor. You are better off going through a trusted contractor that you get from a talking to neighbors and relatives.

[I_bend_metal]

It just ticks me off that I have to repair something the first guy didn't... pay twice for one repair kinda sucks no?

I may just put up with the noise until next fall and get a new furnace through a reputable big box store.

I am not trying to be a smart azz here, but if that is the case, why didn't you call a reputable big box store for the service?? By "big bix store" are you refering to something like the depot or slowes??

[lbjgh]

I was trying to support a local business... :rolleyes:

I think I'll have more recourse dealing with a national chain or department store based on the customer service we received from the small independent guy...

Too bad the local got got ONE sale from us, we've certainly advised friends and neighbours of the poor service we received.



I am not trying to be a smart azz here, but if that is the case, why didn't you call a reputable big box store for the service?? By "big bix store" are you refering to something like the depot or slowes??

[I_bend_metal]

It takes years to build a good reputation....minutes to destroy it. Sorry this wasn't good for you. Just to give you some background as to what is out there. If I had replaced your heat exchanger and you were having this noise issue....there would have been no phone calls. I would have been back out there the same day to make sure you were satisfied with the job. Even the best techs in the world make mistakes. My company provides upfront pricing...you know what it will cost and you ok it before any work ever gets done. We also have 100% satisfation gaurantee...if you're not happy we pay for the call. Just an FYI....the big bix stores contract their work out to locals as well...be very careful with this...many of the pros on here as well as myself spend alot of time fixing these installs.

[ebierley]

I don't know what you were charged for the changeout but I know that we charge many hudreds of dollars for a HX change out under a parts warranty. We don't and I don't know of any companys in my area that would charge by the hour. Every one uses a flat rate book that we get from a service. In that price you need to remember that the co needs to make up for the profit made on the part in addition to the labor for the techs.

[lbjgh]

I'm all for companies making profit and employees earning a decent wage!

What I don't like is a company that takes my hard earned money and screws me with shoddy workmanship.

I_bend_metal, if it hadn't been -30c when the furnace went I would have had a bit of time to find a reputable company like yours! (I love American service companies... )

Live and learn I always say.

p.s. back to my earlier question... what motor spins up prior the blower motor on a high efficiency furnace??


I don't know what you were charged for the changeout but I know that we charge many hudreds of dollars for a HX change out under a parts warranty. We don't and I don't know of any companys in my area that would charge by the hour. Every one uses a flat rate book that we get from a service. In that price you need to remember that the co needs to make up for the profit made on the part in addition to the labor for the techs.

[karsthuntr]

The installation from the Big Box stores involves one of the local contractors and usually ends up being the cheapest one. The cheapest contractor for the big box store which may end up being the most expensive for you. And remember the cheap contractor is cheap for two reasons he is either just starting out or he is a hack and doesn't have any training.

[amd]

p.s. back to my earlier question... what motor spins up prior the blower motor on a high efficiency furnace??

See attachment. Not an uncommon part to fail as far as I know. Find another service company - I wouldn't go through home depot for the reasons stated above.

The sound clip doesn't work.

[airmn38]

the 2 hours they spent installing the heat ex is just the begining there is scheduling at the office the fuel ordering the parts dealing with the warranty forms plus in most cases the mfg charges the dealer for the part until it gets returned then they may have to wait months for the credit if they charged all the real time it should be 6 or more hours, ive had this exact arguement with a customer . Your perception is not relly reality. Heat exchangers dont crack in 10 years for no reason I hope you fixed the underying cause.

[airmn38]

I brought up this old discussion in the hope I can get some expert advice.

Ever since the heat exchanger was replaced the furnace has been very noisy prior to the furnace blower motor starting up. We asked the original contractor to investigate and he claimed the noise was "normal"... interesting this noise didn't exsist before he opened the furnace up.

In laymans terms... there is a whirring, grinding noise which is present for about 45-60 seconds before the furnace blower motor starts up. I'll try to record the noise and post a link...

Since I don't trust the original contract I was wondering if there is anything I can replace myself?

Again it's a Keeprite NUG9075FGA1 furnace.

tx LBJGH

your a slow learner the furnace wasnt installed right to begin with. replacing a heat exchanger is like replacing the entire drive train of a car. Your furnace will never be the same as day one . You should have replaced the furnace with a reputable contractor that guarantees his workmanship for life there around. If you try to fix this yourself your hiring an bigger idiot!!!!! big box is not the answer either they have no checks or balances to insure their quality or your satisfaction they say they do but they dont. I droped out of h/d 's program for this very reason a company in a nearby store had a terrible rep did crap work but had good nubbers I had a 98% satisfaction his was 85% he got all the acalades its all about the$$$$$ dont trust H/D .>

[amd]

your a slow learner the furnace wasnt installed right to begin with. replacing a heat exchanger is like replacing the entire drive train of a car. Your furnace will never be the same as day one . You should have replaced the furnace with a reputable contractor that guarantees his workmanship for life there around. If you try to fix this yourself your hiring an bigger idiot!!!!! big box is not the answer either they have no checks or balances to insure their quality or your satisfaction they say they do but they dont. I droped out of h/d 's program for this very reason a company in a nearby store had a terrible rep did crap work but had good nubbers I had a 98% satisfaction his was 85% he got all the acalades its all about the$$$$$ dont trust H/D .>

I guess that you never heard of manufacturing defects. Didn't ICP produce a bunch of heat exchangers with bad crimp rings?

Or how about Lennox's burner alignment problems (http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=116882)?


furnace will never be the same as day one

Huh?! :rolleyes:

[lbjgh]

amd, the part circled in your picture could be the problem if that runs prior to the blower motor starting up.

I'll try another online source to host the sound clip of the furnace.

Below is a picture of the furnace.


See attachment. Not an uncommon part to fail as far as I know. Find another service company - I wouldn't go through home depot for the reasons stated above.

The sound clip doesn't work.

[lbjgh]

In my case the warranty issue on the Keeprite furnace had something to do with eyelet failures. Ever hear of that problem airmn38? You sound like an expert.



I guess that you never heard of manufacturing defects. Didn't ICP produce a bunch of heat exchangers with bad crimp rings?

Or how about Lennox's burner alignment problems (http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=116882)?



Huh?! :rolleyes:

[lbjgh]

OK, here is the sound clip...
http://www.4shared.com/file/38414412/3515cfb1/furnace.html?dirPwdVerified=d2262b1b

tx LBJGH

[air311]

I think it would be funny if he went to Lowes or Home Depot and they sent the same guys who he called in the first place. Usually you have no idea who they're sending till they get to your house, especially in a bigger city, where there's a million Trane or whatever brand dealers (not sure what Lowes sells)

[amd]

amd, the part circled in your picture could be the problem if that runs prior to the blower motor starting up.

It does on most furnaces to purge combustion byproducts from the previous cycle and "close" a safety switch. (verifies proper draft before it lets the gas valve open)

The inducer is not a user-replaceable part which is available at Home depot/Lowes/whatever - I wouldn't personally replace it myself. (not a technician - just have background knowledge of HVAC)

There could be a fundamental problem with how the unit was put back together, so definitely don't resort to changing out parts without determining what the cause is. (Well, don't change out parts period - call another service company)

Either way it should be much cheaper than a new furnace.

[amd]

OK, here is the sound clip...
http://www.4shared.com/file/38414412/3515cfb1/furnace.html?dirPwdVerified=d2262b1b

tx LBJGH

Definitely not normal. It should sound like one of these but louder-http://www.rheemac.com/superquiet80/.

[lra]

I think we are assuming from his post that the HO is complaining about the price. I don't get that. I think he is complaining about the price relative to the quality of workmanship. I agree w/ the inducer problem. It may not have been reinstalled correctly. It would be fairly coincidental for the noise to occur only after the HX repair. Not impossible of course, just suspect. Initially i'd ask you to allow them the chance to correct any mistakes made, but then again I also agree that there should have been no phone calls as we too would have been back the same day and the day after...until you were satisfied. NO NO NO big box stores. Not only do you not know who the contractor will be, but they mark up the brand being advertised over and above what the contractor would charge just for having the equipment in their stores. And...if you think you would have better customer service response from a large retailer, why don't you read some posts from other HO's re: Sears, The Depot, and Lowes. You'll not like it. We DO spend a lot of time repairing what the box stores fixed.:D

[docholiday]

First, the HX was replaced a year ago, and now the noise is a problem a year later. Im sorry, but it should have been addressed when the HX was replaced if it was an issue. If not, I say dont try to associate the two. If it was making that noise a year ago, it's hard to believe it would still be running.

Next, for the rest of us, judging by the word "Labour" and "-30c", he is in Canada, we dont know what canadian service companies have for overhead, we dont know what his warranty document says when it comes to Canada (cant find a 10 year old Keeprite warranty document). We dont know how far the service company had to travel to the job or to go get the HX, we dont know what costs they ran into when they had to process the warranty claim.

[lbjgh]

docholiday, you are right, I'm north of the border.

We reported the noise to the contractor within days of the heat exchanger replacement... your are correct again that was almost a year ago... He did send one of his "guys" out at the time and we were told that the noise was normal and the contractor did nothing further. Since we had a mild spring and the noise doesn't occur when the A/C was used we didn't have to deal with the problem all summer.

As you can appreciate this noise travels through the whole house via the duct work and we've had to listen to it since the furnace started up in October/November of last year.

IMO a G-note did seem excessive for a warranty repair but the topping of the cake was this nuisance noise. In retrospect, I would have preferred to have a new furnace installed and I would have gladly paid for it. ... it's the principal of paying for shoddy workmanship! :mad:

Now I have to pay another contractor to fix the first guys screw-up and I’m left with an old furnace!




First, the HX was replaced a year ago, and now the noise is a problem a year later. Im sorry, but it should have been addressed when the HX was replaced if it was an issue. If not, I say dont try to associate the two. If it was making that noise a year ago, it's hard to believe it would still be running.

Next, for the rest of us, judging by the word "Labour" and "-30c", he is in Canada, we dont know what canadian service companies have for overhead, we dont know what his warranty document says when it comes to Canada (cant find a 10 year old Keeprite warranty document). We dont know how far the service company had to travel to the job or to go get the HX, we dont know what costs they ran into when they had to process the warranty claim.

[lbjgh]

A quick update on the furnace.... Good like new.

First, thanks for the information provided here.

After discussing the issue with one of the HVAC guys that I work with he suggested that the most likely suspect was the venter motor.

He ordered one from his supplier for $175can and I installed it tonight.

It was a straight forward installation and surprise, surprise it fixed the problem. I left a small gap between the ABS pipes when clamping down the MJ's to help isolate any vibration.

Thanks again,

LBJGH

[bobb25]

I left a small gap between the ABS pipes when clamping down the MJ's to help isolate any vibration.I really hope you're kidding about that. :eek:

[lbjgh]

Well just a quick update on this old thread.

I just had a couple guys give me a quote for a replacement furnace. The heat exchanger is gone again! A little over two years service for a G-note... nice.

Anyway, anyone know if the Keeprite NUG9075FGA1 is still sold and if it has the same external dimensions?

I've been quoted in the $5K range for a new 95-98% efficient furnace before federal rebates which amount to about $1500. So about $3500.

I was thinking about just replacing the existing unit with the same model and hopeful get 13 years out of a replacement Keeprite.

Thoughts?

[sktn77a]

You might want to consider a better known brand with a lifetime HX warranty!

:)

Keith

[lbjgh]

Well I got 13yrs out of the past furnace so I know what I'm dealing with.

I like the infinite speed fans on furnaces I got quotes for but I have no ideal if one make or model is better than the others... plus I don't trust the local shop...

[amd]

Well just a quick update on this old thread.

I just had a couple guys give me a quote for a replacement furnace. The heat exchanger is gone again! A little over two years service for a G-note... nice.

Even if the design is defective, the fact that it only lasted a couples of years tells me that something external caused the failure - either insufficient airflow (dirty evap coil and/or secondary heat exchanger, restrictive filter*) or it was overfired. (Gas pressure should have been checked the first time it failed)

If the external cause is not found and corrected, don't expect the new unit to last long. (Checking airflow, temp rise, and gas pressure is absolutely critical)

13 years out of a furnace is completely unacceptable; they're supposed to last 20+.


Anyway, anyone know if the Keeprite NUG9075FGA1 is still sold and if it has the same external dimensions?

I've been quoted in the $5K range for a new 95-98% efficient furnace before federal rebates which amount to about $1500. So about $3500.

I was thinking about just replacing the existing unit with the same model and hopeful get 13 years out of a replacement Keeprite.

Thoughts?

ICP (they make keeprite units) completely changed their product line, so no, you won't be able to get the same model. There's also no reason to stick with the same brand.

If you're concerned about the initial cost, get a quote on a Goodman/Amana unit.

York, Goodman/Amana, Rheem, and Olsen use tubular heat exchangers - better in the sense that there are no crimp rings to pop.

Good luck.

[lbjgh]

amd, thanks for the detailed response.

The first quote I got was for a Goodman, the second for a Carrier (I believe).

Thanks on the tip regarding the tubular heat exchangers as the first guy that quoted the Goodman also had the same comment regarding the tubular design.

I guess I'm fortunate the winter is over so I'm not in a huge rush to get a replacement.

[amd]

oh, I forgot to mention that getting the variable speed blower is definitely worth it, especially with the rebates.

Advantages:

- Lower energy consumption overall - about 30% less on high and 50%+ less on low. (conventional blower motors are inefficient on low speed) If you like to run the blower continously, it can save you $250+ per year

- Better A/C dehumidification: it can be set up to run on a lower speed during the first few minutes of each cycle to get the coil cold quick. A dehumidistat can also be connected to slow down the blower if the humidity exceeds a certain thershold. (Usually 55-60%)

- Maintains set airflow even as the filter gets dirty

- Most furnaces with variable speed blowers have two levels of heat output (Furnaces are sized for the coldest night of the year) If you get a two stage unit, insist on a two stage thermostat (Search this board for more info)