a/c vs. heat pump question - P word

[markf57]

Mods:

If this violates policy, feel free to lock it!

Everyone else:

In getting a quote for Trane equipment, I was given a much higher price for a heat pump, vs. an a/c unit. As a HO, the only notable difference is a reversing valve of some type. I don't suspect the install would be very different. Am I wrong? What difference should expect for the same model same brand hp vs. ac?

[bartdude]

Heat pumps, depending on the models can be a lot more. Thermostat needs to be different and sometimes the indoor unit might be different to meet the ARI ratings for that heat pump. Also the larger the unit, tonnage wise, generally the bigger the price difference too.
I've seen mid 3 digits to lower 4 digits price differences.

Ask the dealer what kind of payback you might expect to see for the price increase. Im going to be changing my air conditioner soon to a heat pump so I have a hybrid (duel fuel) system. Hate to get ride of a 5 year old a/c but with gas rates in our area climbing, a heat pump should pay itself off fairly quick based on my op cost programs.

[the realist]

What state are you in?

[markf57]

What state are you in?

State of confusion, but I live in Colorado. :-)

[grumpy20716]

You also have defrost control,pressure switches.true suction port and other controls

[txcchbubba]

You did not really give us enough imformation on the choice you are making. "Heat pump vs. a/c unit". Is your contractor offering you a gas furnace or electric heat for your heating (along with the heat puimp option)?

The heat pump option will probably be somewhat higher on initial cost (should not be drastic compared to the overall installation).

Your contractor should be able to provide you with information that would show you the amount of time needed for the energy savings to pay for the initial higher costs.

[markf57]

You did not really give us enough information on the choice you are making. "Heat pump vs. a/c unit". Is your contractor offering you a gas furnace or electric heat for your heating (along with the heat puimp option)?

I hate when people don't give enough info in posts, and then I go off and do the same thing.

The options were a 80% furnace with ac or an 80% furnace with a hp (dual fuel). Both Trane units where the same model (xl16i). The quote with the hp was 21% (4 figures) higher than the straight a/c. He said I'd never see a payback. I really think he didn't want to sell the hp so he jacked the price so I would choose the a/c.

[catmanacman]

why did he not bid a 90% furnace

[beenthere]

I hate when people don't give enough info in posts, and then I go off and do the same thing.

The options were a 80% furnace with ac or an 80% furnace with a hp (dual fuel). Both Trane units where the same model (xl16i). The quote with the hp was 21% (4 figures) higher than the straight a/c. He said I'd never see a payback. I really think he didn't want to sell the hp so he jacked the price so I would choose the a/c.


Check out the York Affinity.

Its defrost board is a duel fuel control, so no extra control is required.

[Sam-the-man]

Ask for a quote on the 16i with a VS air handler and electric resistance aux heat. Compare elec rates with gas rates in your area. You would also need to be sure your house has ample electric service to handle the load.

[Sam-the-man]

if I had the choice of a 16i heat pump or a 80% furnce heating my house I'd want the 16i. Should also perform better in cooling mode with the VS air handler than it would with an 80% with a coil on top. How severe are the winters in your area?

[markf57]

Catmanacman:

I didn't bid on a 90 because I plan on using the hp down to 15 degrees. According to climate date, that would only leave about 5% of the time that I would use the furnace (excepting defrost times). That would only save me about $15 per year based on my usage. Not worth the diff in price.

Beenthere:

York Affinity is one I'm considering as well. I like their York Guard demand defrost system.

Sam:

I live in Colorado and the winters are really not that bad. While I suspect I could go with an airhandler with heat strips, my reason for wanting the dual fuel is that if electric prices rise dramatically or ng prices drop (not likely), I can control my balance point based on fuel/electric rates.

On a side note, the Trane guy when he was pricing it out, wanted to add heat strips to the dual fuel quote. Me thinks he doesn't know too much about heat pumps and dual fuel.

[Sam-the-man]

have a look at the cooling performance data on the matched variable speed air handler air handler and the 80% w/coil. Heating cost not the only thing to look at.

[beenthere]

have a look at the cooling performance data on the matched variable speed air handler air handler and the 80% w/coil. Heating cost not the only thing to look at.

Can't say for other brands.
But the York Affinity, has the same total matched to furnaces as VS A/H, depending on the coil its matched up to, there are some that are 500, to 1000 btu's less.

[esornivram]

Catmanacman:

I didn't bid on a 90 because I plan on using the hp down to 15 degrees. According to climate date, that would only leave about 5% of the time that I would use the furnace (excepting defrost times). That would only save me about $15 per year based on my usage. Not worth the diff in price.

Beenthere:

York Affinity is one I'm considering as well. I like their York Guard demand defrost system.

Sam:

I live in Colorado and the winters are really not that bad. While I suspect I could go with an airhandler with heat strips, my reason for wanting the dual fuel is that if electric prices rise dramatically or ng prices drop (not likely), I can control my balance point based on fuel/electric rates.

On a side note, the Trane guy when he was pricing it out, wanted to add heat strips to the dual fuel quote. Me thinks he doesn't know too much about heat pumps and dual fuel.
what type of heat do you have now?
have you EVER had an HP?
the air temp coming out of the vents is muc cooler than any other form of heat
and at 15 degrees you wont be getting heat back, that too cold for effeciant ops
28 is about the best an air over can supply heat out and the balance point of the house is another thing to consider,

[markf57]

esornivram:

We have gas heat now. Another reason I plan on getting the gas backup is in the event that we don't like the lower supply temps. However, York has a feature called "Hot Heat Pump" technology. It puts out higher supply temps than a normal hp.

Attached is an older version of a spreadsheet I made with showing a lower bp. The new one I have shows I can use 15 as a bp.

http://www.thedealhunter.net/images/bp1.gif

The economic bp is -8 based on my current electric and gas cost, but the hp can't deliver enough heat much below 15 in my house.

[elkhvac]

Mark-

Make sure the heat loss of your home is not greater than the Hp can produce at that temp. Have you had a Manual J heat calc done for your home?


We have installed many duel fuel systems in Colorado.
Economic and comfort balance points are two every different numbers. My American Standard 16 seer hp can heat my home to 20*. I set my bp at 35*. I like to save money, BUT I also like to be comfortable. :D

[markf57]

elkhvac:

I have run HVAC-calc on my home and came up with heat loss. I have also monitored my furnace run times at different temps and I come to a consensus.

I have had 4 company's come out and give me quotes. Everyone has sized the system by sticking their thumbs up in the air and saying "you need x size furnace and x size cooling". None were willing to do a Model J. One guy didn't even know what is was.

Heck, I'm even willing to pay for one. My goal is to get a properly installed and properly sized system. I'm also looking for someone who is knowledgeable about heat pumps as I know ducting may be an issue with a heat pump.

Are you willing to come up to Longmont to bid a duel fuel system for my house?

[nashobasales]

Catmanacman:

I didn't bid on a 90 because I plan on using the hp down to 15 degrees. According to climate date, that would only leave about 5% of the time that I would use the furnace (excepting defrost times). That would only save me about $15 per year based on my usage. Not worth the diff in price.

Beenthere:

York Affinity is one I'm considering as well. I like their York Guard demand defrost system.

Sam:

I live in Colorado and the winters are really not that bad. While I suspect I could go with an airhandler with heat strips, my reason for wanting the dual fuel is that if electric prices rise dramatically or ng prices drop (not likely), I can control my balance point based on fuel/electric rates.

On a side note, the Trane guy when he was pricing it out, wanted to add heat strips to the dual fuel quote. Me thinks he doesn't know too much about heat pumps and dual fuel.

Why the hell would you need to add heat strips to a dual fuel system?? :eek: That's what the furnace is for. Sounds like you should kick that guy to the curb. If he doesn't know anything about heat pumps, what makes you think he knows anything about furnaces or a/c systems.

[htrguy]

Another reason for $ is the outdoor coil is configured differently for HP operation making the coil larger.

[elkhvac]

elkhvac:

Are you willing to come up to Longmont to bid a duel fuel system for my house?

Sorry Mark,

We are in the Denver area and since the gas prices went up, we no longer go that far north.:o

The worse part, don't know anyone up that way to refer you to.

Sorry

[markf57]

Sorry Mark,

We are in the Denver area and since the gas prices went up, we no longer go that far north.:o

The worse part, don't know anyone up that way to refer you to.

Sorry

Bummer! :( But I understand.

[oldertech]

Come on guys heat strips should be in a heat pump if no other reason than to keep blowing warm air during the defrost cycle. Without them you will be air conditioning the house (during defrost) in the winter.

Unless in a dual fuel situation the fossil fuel furnace would run during defrost. I don't have experience in that area but seems it wouldn't work well since fossil fuel takes so long to get going.