FireEye and it's modules may be bad

[meeks]

Hey guys, I need your many years of experience here. I'm looking at a make-up air unit with a fireye. When starting up the unit, the fireye tells me that it has control voltage and the fan kicks on. The air switch makes a few seconds after just as its supposed to (when reading from the termrinal bar which then goes straight to the back of the fireye). The fireye never see's the airflow switch's response and thus does not get light up the airflow led. No matter what I tried, I could not get the airflow led to light. I tried to jump the airflow switch out at the switch and at the terminal bar on startup, a few seconds after startup, and a minute after startup. Nothing worked. Airflow is present, the switch is telling the fireye that airflow is present, yet the fireeye refuses to light the airflow led and continue to the next sequence of operation.

I have assumed that the fireye (mc120) chassis is bad as well as the programmer module (mp230), and the flame module (mart1). As it turnes out, this is VERY expensive and I would like to be accurate in my diagnosis. I have the chassis + both modules on the way. I can send them back if I absolutely have to.

Does anyone have any input on this fireye control? Do you agree with my diagnosis? Should I have checked anything that I did not mention? I am beginning to second guess myself... Any help is appreciated.

[absrbrtek]

Pull it and have it bench tested. The combustion controls dealer will usualy perform this function free of charge. They have the test setups.
Hey guys, I need your many years of experience here. I'm looking at a make-up air unit with a fireeye. When starting up the unit, the fireeye tells me that it has control voltage and the fan kicks on. The air switch makes a few seconds after just as its supposed to (when reading from the termrinal bar which then goes straight to the back of the fireeye). The fireeye never see's the airflow switch's response and thus does not get light up the airflow led. No matter what I tried, I could not get the airflow led to light. I tried to jump the airflow switch out at the switch and at the terminal bar on startup, a few seconds after startup, and a minute after startup. Nothing worked. Airflow is present, the switch is telling the fireeye that airflow is present, yet the fireeye refuses to light the airflow led and continue to the next sequence of operation.

I have assumed that the fireeye (mc120) chassis is bad as well as the programmer module (mp230), and the flame module (mart1). As it turnes out, this is VERY expensive and I would like to be accurate in my diagnosis. I have the chassis + both modules on the way. I can send them back if I absolutely have to.

Does anyone have any input on this fireeye control? Do you agree with my diagnosis? Should I have checked anything that I did not mention? I am beginning to second guess myself... Any help is appreciated.

[meeks]

This appears to be my control:

http://www.accontrols.com/acatalog/Chassis.html
http://www.accontrols.com/acatalog/c4000.pdf

We do not have a "combustion controls dealer" around. I'm dealing with CC Dickson in Nashville, TN which is a general purpose HVAC supply house who has an account with Fireeye. I'm confident that they cannot perform this type of testing.

[heat/cool/dude]

Take your control to your local supplie house that has a test stand and have it tested out.





Keep It Basic!

[meeks]

I wish I could, time is of the essence. They have me running elsewhere and the new wpart will have arrived before I may return. Who knows, it changes day to day...

[The Doctor]

I think you're on the right track. The last MUA I had a looksee at had some Fireye electronics, and not much more than air proving switch in front..don't have any electronic advice to give you though. I hope it goes well.

[heat/cool/dude]

Recheck your subase wiring. Also something as stupid as having the test switch in test.




Keep It Basic!

[meeks]

The base is wired up correctly, that was one of the first checks made once I realized that the air switch was not the problem. If I am not mistaken, I beleive that the Fireye control expects control voltage (120) between 8 and 6. There is 120v between 8 and 6 yet no airflow led.

Thank you so much guys for the quick responses. You guys are wonderful and very helpful.

Also, the dipswitches are in the positions they were in when the unit was functioning properly. IE not test.

[freerider]

You are correct about terminals 8 and 6. Also, check your grounding. I have seen that mess with Fireyes.

[jschaible]

http://www.fireye.net/pdf/MTS-1.pdf

http://www.fireye.net/pdf/MTS-2.pdf

Use these, atleast you will have something concrete to show the customer when you have to replace the control. Hopefully this helps! The fireye website is just filled with super valuable information. Good Luck!!

[meeks]

That's wonderful literature, thanks guys. I think that's got me on the right track.

[onetime]

If the connections are good at the base and you jump it in the right sequence and the control doesn't start main flame then you have a module problem. You may have to make sure you jump it at the right time or it may lock out because of that, you didn't say if the air flow switch opened when the fan was off.

[Moose]

Fireye also has a 'service man's' kit that is much like honeywell's. Also, did you check the fuse? (in the module?)

[chris0fer]

I had the exact same issue with a Fireye controller in a Hastings unit. You sound right on the money. After switching out the mod (it also had a conversion kit to retrofit from the old style) everything ran like a charm.




Hey guys, I need your many years of experience here. I'm looking at a make-up air unit with a fireye. When starting up the unit, the fireye tells me that it has control voltage and the fan kicks on. The air switch makes a few seconds after just as its supposed to (when reading from the termrinal bar which then goes straight to the back of the fireye). The fireye never see's the airflow switch's response and thus does not get light up the airflow led. No matter what I tried, I could not get the airflow led to light. I tried to jump the airflow switch out at the switch and at the terminal bar on startup, a few seconds after startup, and a minute after startup. Nothing worked. Airflow is present, the switch is telling the fireye that airflow is present, yet the fireeye refuses to light the airflow led and continue to the next sequence of operation.

I have assumed that the fireye (mc120) chassis is bad as well as the programmer module (mp230), and the flame module (mart1). As it turnes out, this is VERY expensive and I would like to be accurate in my diagnosis. I have the chassis + both modules on the way. I can send them back if I absolutely have to.

Does anyone have any input on this fireye control? Do you agree with my diagnosis? Should I have checked anything that I did not mention? I am beginning to second guess myself... Any help is appreciated.

[meeks]

Thanks for the responses guys, much helpful information, however, I have another problem.

I have been given direct orders to install a honeywell controller in the fireye's place. Not a huge deal. It's a Honeywell RM7840 L 1018, so it has the display module. Well, installed the unit according to the diagram on the back:

g - flame sensor ground
l2(n) - common
3 - alarm contactor
4 - 120v
5 - burner motor (unused)
6 - controller and limits (jumped to 7)
7 - lockout / interlock (jumped to 6)
8 - 10 sec pilot ignition
9 - main gas valve
10 - 5 sec ignition
F(11) - flame sensor signal

Special attention should be paid to 4 and 5. A similar, older model, a series honeywell controller is wired slighly different: 4 is the burner motor and 5 is the 120v. This would cause a maintenance man to go out of his mind if trying to install a newer model. However, this does not affect us in my situation.

I have double checked, and double checked the wiring by physically tracing out each wire until it terminates.

When I start this guy up, the startup standby occurs, it waits 10 seconds. After the 10 seconds, it waits an additional 7 seconds, for the 7 second purge card installed. After that, it locks out on alarm 10. 10 means preignition interlock fault during standby. The JR1 is in place, JR2 is not in place, JR3 is in place. This means 1 the pilot flame est period is 10 seconds, 2 is not even shown in the text as described for this model, and 3 airflow switch check is disabled.

I've jumped 120v to terminal 6 (jumped to 7), tricking the control to think all of the safteys are ok, the outdoor stat, high/lowpressure, and air switch.

I checked the wiring on this unit verses an identical model sitting next to it with the older a series honeywell controller. Everything, aside from 4 being 5 and 5 being 4 on the newer controllers, is wired exactly the same. I started to think that there may be a flame senor ground problem and grounded it good but soon realized that this shouldnt matter since it's not even getting to the point of sparking or opening the pilot solenoid. It's faulting before it does anything besides check it'sself.

I'm out of ideas. I'm going to sit down with the boss tommorrow, print out a schematic, seeing as I do not have one on this damn Applied Air make-up air unit.

@ Moose: I did not know they were fused internally. Being that a new controller is installed, it is irrelevant now. I will look on the old controller to see.

@ onetime: I tried jumping that damn air switch before startup, at startup, just after startup, a 1 second after startup, 3 seconds after startup, 5 seconds after startup, 10 seconds after startup, 20 seconds after startup, etc. The air switch was confirmed opperating correctly. It makes a second or so after the fan starts, and breaks a few seconds after the fan kicks off.

[meeks]

And for those of you that are going to ask, lol, installed on the Honeywell RM7840 L 1080 is a rectification flame amplifier R7847 A 1025 (0.8 or 1.0 second flame failure response time) and as ST7800 A 1013 (7 second) purge card. Both the amplifier and the purge card are brand new, the controller is tested and is working properly.

[meeks]

Anyone have an opinion on the matter?

[Moose]

So... what electrician has been 'dicking' with this unit before you got there?

[meeks]

The maintenance man. There's nothing I can do about that. Is this question relevant to my inquiry?

[onetime]

Maybe you have some worn wires in the pre-ign interlock circuit that are shorting together, I had a Hastings unit with a 4x4 box on the floor, the melted snow was a 1/2" deep, the wire coverings were ok but saturated causing the short and intermittent problem. I rerouted conduit and wire to the ceiling to cure my problem.

[Moose]

The relevance is.. history. What has he done, when & where. Like a detective, you need to know this to find a problem.

[meeks]

I have not yet had time to return to this job, but as soon as I do, I will post the results.

@ moose: The maintenance man does not remember what he has done over time, and there is no schematic so he has not labeled any changes made over time.

I have a schematic of the unit, and I'll rewire every inch of that unit if I have to. The boss is paying, so I'ma workin.

@ onetime: It's a good possibility that my problem may have to do with a faulty or loose wire somewhere. Here recently, I've seen a rash of loose wires, go figure.

[meeks]

I'm looking over the paperwork here and it looks like the preignition interlock (fault code 10) expects 120v on terminal 17 on the honeywell burner controller. I'm going to attempt to jump 6 to 7 to 17. In the current situation, between our 120v and terminal 6 is all of our safetys, including our high/low pres switch, airswitch, ambient stat. So to test, I will be putting 120v to 6, 7 and 17. If the controller does not move onto the next step, we may have some more controller issues.

[evildberg]

The problem you had with the Fireye was simply a programmer card. I have had the same problem with them and taken them in to be checked out by the rep and thats always what it is.

The problem with the 7840 you have is incorect wiring and an incorect control. You said this was in a make up air unit. In every make up air I have ever seen firing rate modulation is controlled by Maxitrol or other equivelent controls controlling the mod motor directly by DC voltage. The flame safeguard controls ignition, flame sensing and flame fail lockout.

The problem with the particular control you chose is that it utilizes high low fire modulation through the controller relays. The control runs the mod motor and damper to high fire position and low fire position at each end looking for the gas valve cam switch to make proving position. The particular model you chose uses this proving means and your make up air doesn't have a gas valve of that type or controls of that type. What you would be looking for would be RM7800M.

Your preignition fault during standby is caused by the control not seeing the proof of closure switch closed during prepurge. Its locking out because it thinks the main gas valve is stuck open and thus will not attempt ignition. Terminals 4 to 20

You also wired the air flow switch in series with terminal 6. It should be between terminal 6 and 7. This way airflow status is displayed on the control.

You stated that you needed power from 6 to 17. Terminals 16 and 17 are unused nothing goes to them.

The control you have will not work unless you have a gas valve that is controlled by series 90 with high / low fire switches and control. It won't leave the purge state. It will sit there and wait for the high and low fire switches to make. This type of control is used for boilers.

Get the corect 7800 control and check all wiring in the unit and wire it accordingly or get a new programmer card for the fireye and check wiring.

Good luck

http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/66-0000s/66-1085.pdf

[meeks]

Thanks a million for that response evildberg. I was handed this control to install on this unit. It sure would have been nice to just replace the programmer module on the fireye. If what you tell me about the honeywell burner controller not being compatible with my application is true, then I may just try a new programmer on the fireye burner controller.

I'll talk to my boss and let him make the final decicion since he signs my checks.

[slimwoodie]

these guy's ...are too polite

to tell you ...

PERHAP"S YOU SHOULDN"T BE WORKING ON THIS....:rolleyes:

[tex~n~oz]

Just when I was about to push the button, Slimwoodie beat me to it..
BTW Slim, in that mug shot you're grinnin like you just molested a pack of college cheerleaders...... Pictures?

meeks, dude you should really take care in jumpering any safety even for a second. It sounds like you have a safety you're not seeing.. perhaps a gas safety valve?
What boiler is this off of? Kewanni? I had a slightly out of balance fan that caused the pressure switch to occasionally fail on start-up. There are sometimes micro-switches on vane actuators that prove position. Can be a whole heap of stuff.

[slimwoodie]

mug shot ...

look up Rienhold Aman

it'll describe my present marital arangement

[tex~n~oz]

OOHH Slim!!

Is that you dude?? HA HA HA HA
You shoulda opted for the bus-load of cheerleaders!!

My hat's off to ya brother!

Vive ut vivas!!