surge control cpc

[georef]

I would like to get a detailed description if possible of the operation of surge receiver on rack with cpc rmcc control. with strategies. If anyone can help .. thanks in advance

[markettech]

A receiver is a surge tank - cpc strategies are more for cycling compressors & such...................and monitoring, not so much regulating receiver levels.

I am sorry, not sure exactly what you are asking for here.:(

[smilies]

Condenseddave used to talk about an Attron eye, maybe that was hooked up to EMS? The racks I've seen with surge tanks are mechanically controlled with check valves and what not, not the controller.

[juneair]

If you are looking to control the surge sol valve, you set it as a sensor controled output and strap a sensor on the drop let. When it drops below your set point it will open the valve and allow the liquid to go straight to the lig line.

hope that helps

[frostmonkey]

Racks utilizing surge tanks are typicall catorgized as "critically charged" meaning they only keep enough refrigerat in circulation to maintain a predetermined sub cooling set point. As the load on the system goes down so does the required amount of refrigerant, which unless refrigerant is removed from the system the subcooling will begin to climb. The rack controller monitors both High side pressure, and drop leg (Liquid return) temp from the condenser, as the subcooling climbs refrigerant is pumped into the surge tank until target subcooling is achieved,and as sub cooling decreases refrigernat is added back to the system. All the racks I service that are critically charged have a target subcooling of 15 deg F, with a 3 deg Diff. These racks also typically utilise floating head pressure with a pre determined min head pressure. Ours are set at 150psi (R-507). To determine the correct stratige for the system you're working on you will need to know what the design parameters were.

[Dowadudda]

Can we all say "tyler enviroguard".

[frostmonkey]

Can we all say "tyler enviroguard".

Exactly! Tyler I believe was the first rack manufacturer to use this technology, however our racks are either Hussmann, or Kysor.

[SupaHeat]

So is there any difference at all between a surge tank and a receiver?

[markettech]

Racks utilizing surge tanks are typicall catorgized as "critically charged" meaning they only keep enough refrigerat in circulation to maintain a predetermined sub cooling set point.

Seriously, I'm not being a smart a$$ here, but I thought a receiver was a "surge tank" - a place where the excess refrigerant goes.

I have worked on many Envirogaurd racks and yes, they are basically a "critically charged" system, but irregardless of rack - a receiver - a surge tank - all the same thing.................Or am I in need of sum schoolin:o

[gerryboy00]

Flow-through is call a normal receiver

surge receiver recuperate excess refrigerant from the system, the normal flow of refrigerant (drop leg / liquid line) bypass the receiver....no Flow-through

let me check something...brb

[gerryboy00]

CDave explained it pretty well years ago ...(when he were young ;) )

here it is
third post

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=89060

[SupaHeat]

"It's only purpose is to catch and hold in reserve excess liquid from the condenser." -condenseddave

So inst that a receiver? If not then how do they differ? Because thats exactly what I thought the purpose of a receiver was for. BTW that was a great thread

[markettech]

Gerry - I read the thread attached to your reply - I'm still doing some research myself;)

[mccool]

CDave explained it pretty well years ago ...(when he were young ;) )

here it is
third post

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=89060

The Hill rack desribed by CDave worked on a much different and likely rarely now seen control, the atron controller was basically an electronic sightglass that diverted discharge gas to the receiver (for a preset time)whenever the liquid SG was flashing. The system mentioned by FM and many D's is based on amount of subcooling and only diverts refrigerant to the receiver when a specific amount of subcooling is achieved, with this system the receiver is typically always at 0% and always being pumped out.

[markettech]

I was taught that a receiver WAS a surge tank, or a place for excess refrigerant to hang out until needed elsewhere.


Main Entry: 1surge http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?surge001.wav=surge'))
Pronunciation: 's&rj
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): surged; surg&#183;ing
Etymology: earlier, to ride (at anchor) probably in part from Middle French sourgir to cast anchor, land, from Catalan surgir to heave, cast anchor, from Latin surgere to rise, spring up; from sub- up + regere to lead straight; in part from Latin surgere -- more at SUB- (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sub-), RIGHT (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/right)
intransitive verb
1 : to rise and fall actively : TOSS (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/toss) <a ship surging in heavy seas>
2 : to rise and move in waves or billows : SWELL (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/swell) <the sea was surging>
3 : to slip around a windlass, capstan, or bitts -- used especially of a rope
4 : to rise suddenly to an excessive or abnormal value <the stock market surgeed to a record high>
5 : to move with a surge or in surges <felt the blood surging into his face

In reading some of the posts however, I feel that maybe I'm not understanding what a surge tank is - and - that quite possibly it is a separate piece of equipment attached to a refrigeration system independent of a receiver and having a completely different function from a receiver.

Bottom line: Are receivers and surge tanks two completely seperate pieces of equipment serving an entirely different function from one another?

[gerryboy00]

The Hill rack desribed by CDave worked on a much different and likely rarely now seen control, the atron controller was basically an electronic sightglass that diverted discharge gas to the receiver (for a preset time)whenever the liquid SG was flashing. The system mentioned by FM and many D's is based on amount of subcooling and only diverts refrigerant to the receiver when a specific amount of subcooling is achieved, with this system the receiver is typically always at 0&#37; and always being pumped out.

your right
i was just talking about the difference between surge receiver and flow-through.

just to mix up everyone hehehhehe..;)
with a SDS valve, a flow-through receiver could be use as a surge receiver when decent subcooling from the drop leg is sense from the valve

so a receiver is in fact a receiver and will always be....but different application may apply.

[markettech]

with a SDS valve, a flow-through receiver could be use as a surge receiver when decent subcooling from the drop leg is sense from the valve.

Hang with me here - my mind is about shot for the day.

The quote above..............This can be seen on Tyler's NC as well as the previously mentioned Evirogaurd racks, right?

[gerryboy00]

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/462/rgdrhmg5.jpg

[markettech]

That answers my question nicely - thanks:)

..................Never saw a receiver quite like that before though:D

[gerryboy00]

with a SDS valve, a flow-through receiver could be use as a surge receiver when decent subcooling from the drop leg is sense from the valve




http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8324/22dq5.jpg

[gerryboy00]

..................Never saw a receiver quite like that before though:D


:D

[bryan l]

A surge tank enables the use of free cooling for capacity (sub-cooled liquid). A receiver does not permit you to have sub-cooling, any returning gas into the flow thru receiver will enter a saturated space and you will loose your gained sub-cooling. The SDS valve will allow the flow thru receiver to "act" like a surge tank for a short time. Usually the holdback and the SDS will fight each other for some time during the cold times until a steady flow emerges out of the holdback (fan cycling and amb conditions really make things bounce around for a time when it gets cold).

SDS can change the flow thru receiver into a surge. Its intended to take advantage of available sub-cooling. A true surge system uses the tank only to pull excess gas from the system due to changing system requirements.

[markettech]

A surge tank enables the use of free cooling for capacity (sub-cooled liquid). A receiver does not permit you to have sub-cooling, any returning gas into the flow thru receiver will enter a saturated space and you will loose your gained sub-cooling. The SDS valve will allow the flow thru receiver to "act" like a surge tank for a short time. Usually the holdback and the SDS will fight each other for some time during the cold times until a steady flow emerges out of the holdback (fan cycling and amb conditions really make things bounce around for a time when it gets cold).

SDS can change the flow thru receiver into a surge. Its intended to take advantage of available sub-cooling. A true surge system uses the tank only to pull excess gas from the system due to changing system requirements.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. If I am understanding this correctly then, a tank is a tank, but the technical definition is determined by how the thing is piped and used.

Blue tank under an Envirogaurd rack is a surge tank. Same tank under a Systematic rack (with a different piping configuration) is a receiver - right?

[bryan l]

A tank is a tank. How its piped and WHERE the pipes tie in will tell you the story of what its role in life is.

[markettech]

A tank is a tank. How its piped and WHERE the pipes tie in will tell you the story of what its role in life is.

Good Christ, and here I thought I knew it all:D :D :D ;)

[SupaHeat]

Sorry if i missed it but what does SDS stand for?

[smilies]

Good diagrams, gerryboy.