an Inconvenient truth

[bryan l]

Blown away by this movie. :eek:
I consider myself a skeptic in almost every aspect until I have heard both sides of the argument. I was under the opinion that humans could not be the only reason for "global warming" and that the recent changes ALL of us have seen around the world were cyclical. Now I am not on the band wagon as of yet but I must admit that the movie Al Gore has put together is VERY convincing. I am doing things right now to help that were not based on fighting climate change such as recycling ect. I was doing them because its the right thing to do and waste is an evil plaguing modern civilizations. How many of you have seen this movie? what do you think of the ideas and statistics in the movie?


I sat back after the movie (and during the movie as well) and thought about the job I do for a living. Now I dont think that we are part of the problem, Humans in the modern world NEED refrigeration and in some cases NEED A/C. Heat is a necessity almost everywhere you travel. What can we do as a trade to do our part? I am a Refrigeration mechanic so I think about the practical and economical ways to do my part. I have been working on trying to improve efficiency to the Racks we have with better setup and maintenance. What else can be done to help?

What has to happen in order to change the will of the political environment around the world regarding this time of needed change... I personally feel despair when I think about what REALLY dictates the role of government, Business. Specifically the companies with the most amount of push or pull are the energy companies and industry that has the most to "lose" in regards to the changes needed..... :(

[stonefly]

well i can tell you from personal experience that if you state that as a matter of profesional & ethical policy you have never (with a handful of emergency situations) added refrigerant to a system you know to be leaking, it won't be received entirely well on this forum.
its curious that we in the business of moving heat see so clearly the wisdom of our customers relying on "our" expertise yet feel entitled to a scientific opinion on global warming or depletion of the ozone. its like so many a generation ago that had a conflicting medical opinion on whether or not cigarettes were harmful & now.....not so much.
what will happen will be dictated by human nature.....too little,too late.

[jmac00]

I lost interest when these same idiots said that part of the problem with global warming was all the cigarette smokers.................whaaaa?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

ya think 2500 square miles of forest burning in Mexifornia would have anything to do with global warming???????????

cigarette smokers........please:cool: :mad:

[amickracing]

I don't doubt that in general we're doing stuff the mother nature that's not natural. But on the other hand I don't think we are exclusively to blame for this warming thing

Thought #1, same as George Carlin... who are we to believe humans can ruin earth that's been around millions of years?

Thought #2... in the city it's more often than not warmer than out in the country (in summer), or even on a winter night, usually in the city it's warmer than out in the middle of no where right? Now... we are paving more and more of the earth, this helps to "keep it warm". Throw into the fact that there's more people on earth (which, i'd hope we know gives off x ammount of BTU per person). How about an engine running... it gives off heat (forget the "pollution" factor), a welder welding adds heat... it goes on and on. So, in a way we are making it warmer, but not so much by pollution IMHO>

Thought #3, if refrigerant makes things cold... you'd think all the systems I don't recover would have cooled things down a bunch by now lol (just kidding on this last one).

[RoBoTeq]

More like Inconvenient Fiction. Beginning with the fact that there is not absolute fact that human activity is actually having an affect on the current global warming. One fact is that the earth has gone through global warming and cooling cycles since its inception and that includes 99.99% of time when there were no humans even around.

Selling scare tactics is all this kind of media is about. Good for Al Gore; he found a way to make money off of something that he does not have to do a thing to produce.

If anything that mankind is doing is truly accelerating global warming, I figure it is all of the hot air being spewed out by the ultra-liberals who believe we are important and influential enough to make this big of a difference.

[billva]

Global warming? Tell that to the people of texas. Hell, it snowed in malibu a couple of days ago.

if anything we global cooling.

[oroy54]

Worry more about sitting in traffic breathing all that carbon monoxide.

[vlux]

Sooner or later we have to admit that we as 'things on this planet are making changes by the things we do. We cant make excuses like its the media, its the boogy man, its a forest burning. The planet is changing, lets face it with all the people and polution that we have pumped into the air, water and ground things are going to change and it wont be for the better. I honestly believe we will destroy the earth, sooner or later, if not by polution by atomic explosions. Why do you think the millionares and politicians want a set on the next space ship to mars?:D :D

[swellmel]

I just remember the way it was forty something years ago!:cool:
What's it gonna be like in forty something more years?:confused:
As usual--just my opinion.:D

[mark beiser]

If you fell for Forrest Gore's little work of mostly fiction, I have some swamp land and a few bridges I'll sell you cheep!

There is so much straw man arguments, out of context quotes, junk science and agenda driven propoganda and lies in that flick that it would be laughable if there were not so many sheeple that believe it as scientific fact.

Many of the same celebrities, scientists and politicians that are jumping up and down about global warming now were crying about global cooling and the coming ice age back in the early 80's.

Do a Goggle search on Debunking an inconvenient truth" and spend some time following links and reading. You will have to wade through some obvious idiots, but there is a lot of real info that will give you a better story.

One of my favorite fictions in the movie was the "hockey stick". That theory has been blown out of the water by so many scientific, historical and government organizations that I'm surprised Gore didn't have it edited out of the movie to at least save a little face.
In all their research they somehow missed the very widely known about period of global warming in the middle ages that was followed by a "mini ice age". Both are known to have had profound impacts in Europe, Asia and South America. The warming period led to the downfall of a dynasty in China and is theorized to have been what led to the decline of Mayan civilization to the point that they moved. The "mini ice age" led to the downfall of another dynasty in China, caused widespread famine problems in Europe, and is theorized to be what finished off the Mayan civilization the 2nd time.
You think there may have been a political agenda behind those scientists leaving it out? Just follow the grant money for an explanation.

I have no doubt that the earth is getting warmer, it does that from time to time. The 1% or so of the total greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that can be attributed to human activity may even be very slightly accelerating it, but I don't believe there is a GD thing we can do to stop it.

How about instead of spending many billions of dollars, and crippling the economy, to try to stop a natural cycle we have no hope of stopping, we expend the energy on planning for and dealing with the effects of it?

[bryan l]

Have you watched the Documentary RoBo?

If not give it the benefit of the doubt. If you watch it and can point out some things you contest please speak up. Not a challenge in any way. Just want to hear your take on it. As with anyone else.

[bryan l]

There is so much straw man arguments, out of context quotes, junk science and agenda driven propoganda and lies in that flick that it would be laughable if there were not so many sheeple that believe it as scientific fact.



The remark about "agenda driven propoganda" has me asking WHO's agenda? Where is the profit in this push regarding the topic of climate change? who would this benefit?

[mark beiser]

Oh, another thing. There is a large body of geological evidence that shows there have been a number of mass extinctions over the eons caused by global warming and cooling periods.

[mark beiser]

The remark about "agenda driven propoganda" has me asking WHO's agenda? Where is the profit in this push regarding the topic of climate change? who would this benefit?

Your kidding right?
Political power, grant money, etc. Billions are spent every year on it, and if they have their way, trillions.

Kinda like trial lawyers, they have to find new ways to sue people to stay in business.

[oroy54]

The cow's will continue to burp and pass gas. The oceans will continue to give off clorine gas. The fruits will continue to give off ethylene gas as they ripen and rot. Ya know at the store, in the area where you buy your fruits and fresh veggies? The bags have holes in them, to let the ethlyene gas out. Remember the story about 1 bad apple?

[Diceman]

The fires out west are a result of climate warming, not a contributing factor.
Put your political agendas aside and think about it. We are all responsible, lets admit it and do something instead of arguing.
It took billions of years for the earth to store up oil, coal and etc from dead animals, plants and whatever.
You can't burn all that off in a few hundred years and not expect a major change in the environment.
The earth's atmosphere is more fragile than you may think.
We have experienced the warmest years on record recently.They can use ice core samples to determine climates from thousands of years ago.
Even Bush is going to admit to it in his speech, WOW.:D

[fastfred]

LOL at the "experts" who comment on the issue, yet they are untrained in the subject.
My neighbor, a tool and die guy who knows nothing about "Freezone" and the earths atmosphere says refrigerant release is O.K. :eek:

I try to read and follow the rules assuming that experts know more than me. :D

We leave evidence of our lifestyle no matter what we do.:(

[hal parker]

It looks like everyone is going to believe whatever they want but remember this, If we do nothing and reach a tipping point we can all kiss our a-- goodby and tha a-- of our children and grandchildren.

[mark beiser]

I try to read and follow the rules assuming that experts know more than me. :D(

Which experts? There is far from a consensus in the scientific community.

It certainly raises some red flags with me when one of the biggest spokesman for the global warming cause makes a movie that is proven to be rife with inaccuracies, fabricated "research" and outright lies.

[mark beiser]

We have experienced the warmest years on record recently.

If you mean since weather data has been recorded, then yeah, these are the warmest years. Lets not loose sight of the fact that the period between about 150 and 400 years ago global temperatures were at their lowest in over 2000 years or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

We are also barely above the peak temps between 800 and 1300 AD during the Medieval Climate Optimum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_climate_optimum

IMO, we are boned either way. If it is a totally natural warming that is only slightly impacted by human activity, there isn't a dang thing we can do about it anyway.
If it is mostly caused by human activity, even if North America, Europe and Japan massivly cut back, we are gona get screwed over by China and emerging 3rd world countries that are industrializing with none of the already extensive antipolution measures we have in place.

Global warming is happening, no matter what we do. All of mankind could forsake technology and go back to mud huts and sticks and global warming would still happen IMO.

Face it, this rock we all live on has to many humans, we need to find another rock to spread out on, and/or a global population reducing event to insure the survival of the species. ;)

[bluestone]

Here , Here Mark, nicely put. The only thing we are doing in this country is playing on our own guilt. We are the cleanest industrialized country on the planet. The leftist and the huggers will break our economy if they have their way while the far east mows us down. I'm not saying conservation and a new enegy perspective are not good things, I'm all for that being a product of the 60s and 70s. I'm agast at how the same people who are all over global warming now are the ones that were driving the big SUVs in the late 90s early 00s. If ya need a 4x4 ok, but why would you in Miami.
One other thing to ponder (statement in Popular Science) I read awhile back discussing the pros and cons of the Kioto Accord, the US has a net loss of CO2 due to the eastern reforestation. I will look for the specific link to back that up. Also while one factor in forest fires may very well be global warming, another big one is poor forest management, BLM contols much of the western forests and the feds have been without a management plan in place for 22 yrs, I know in my area, VT, logging of federal forest land has been suspended, and more land all the time is being classified as wilderness, thes forests are nothing but a tangle of brush, and a disaster waiting to happen

[firsthouse]

Speaking of documentary, has anyone seen "Supersize Me"? That one was really fun to watch.

[scrogdog]

Global Warming is a fact.

What causes it is not.

And, BTW, global warming does not necessarily mean that local temperatures will rise across the board… it means strange patterns of weather. That could mean colder for a time locally… while globally mean temps are on the rise.

So what makes that different from any other branch of science? Not a thing. Theories are not facts and vice-versa. They are different things altogether. As Gould said, “Facts are the world’s data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don’t go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein’s Theory of Gravitation replaced Newton’s in this century, but apples didn’t suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome.”

Are humans partly responsible for global warming? Perhaps they are. But that does not explain ice caps melting on Mars does it?

It also does not make any sense at all to limit our response to C02 reduction. If we were somehow able to do the impossible and cut out ALL sources of human generated C02, the carbon cycle would still take over 200 years to stabilize. But wait! Al Gore and others say we don’t have that kind of time, right?

Hmmm. Something is not adding up here. We should be moving civilization away from the coasts… and start figuring out how we make our ports still work with higher sea levels. You know, practical things like that. After all, this is the greatest demon to face mankind!

Methinks there is a lot more going on here than pure scientific discovery, because a response limited to C02 reduction only does not fit with the rest of the story.

Anyone want to guess at some true motivations for the C02 stance? :)

This is a clear case of science being improperly used as a tool to mold social policy. Simple as that as far as I can see.

[bluestone]

Scrog, you articulated that much better than I was able to. At least there are a few voices of reason left in this country.

[Diceman]

The evidence speaks for itself, it's no use arguing with guys who listen to Rash Limberger anyway.

[scrogdog]

Perhaps then, Dice, you would care to share with us the repeatable test that demonstrates C02's effect on the global warming phenomena?

Good luck with that mission.

What we have here is science by consensus. Except there is one little problem. Science only requires consensus in the peer review phase of the scientific method. Science by the scientific method does not require consensus. All science requires is one person who happens to be right and can demonstrate it to everyone else. Consensus in science SHOULD only come in to play when the results of a given experiment are to be interpreted.

In addition, consensus science has an extremly poor track record. Google Dr. Goldberger and Pellegra.

Here's a short list of scientific consensus being dead wrong;

Jenner and smallpox, Pasteur and germ theory. Saccharine, margarine, repressed memory, fiber and colon cancer, not to mention hormone replacement therapy.

That list can be endlessly multiplied. And the great scientists of our time were great precisely BECAUSE they broke with the consensus.

[firsthouse]

Here's something to cheer you up...

Posted AT 3:34 PM EST ON 22/01/07

Say goodbye to those Alpen glaciers

WILLIAM KOLE

Associated Press

VIENNA — Add glaciers to the list of things endangered in nature.

Glaciers will all but disappear from the Alps by 2050, scientists warned Monday, basing their outlook on mounting evidence of slow but steady melting of the continental ice sheets.

In western Austria's Alpine province of Tyrol, glaciers have been shrinking by about 3 per cent a year, meaning their mass decreases annually by roughly a metre, said Roland Psenner of the University of Innsbruck's Institute for Ecology.

And 2050 is a conservative estimate, he said: If they keep melting at that rate, most glaciers could vanish by 2037.

Experts at a regional conference on the Alps, held annually in the mountain resort of Alpbach, stopped short of blaming global warming. But they called for a review of preventive measures to protect people living in valleys who could face a higher risk of dangerous flooding.

Runoff from melting glaciers caused severe flooding that devastated parts of Switzerland in the summer of 2005.

Glacial melting is a global problem, according to the Zurich-based World Glacier Monitoring Service, which keeps tabs on 30 ice sheets in nine mountain ranges worldwide and says their average mass is steadily eroding.

Glaciers are the planet's largest source of fresh water after polar ice, which scientists say also is melting to 100-year lows. In Europe, they're also hugely popular with skiers and snowboarders seeking year-round thrills and help anchor a multimillion-dollar tourist industry.

In 2005, glacier thickness decreased by an average of 60 centimetres, and in 2004 by an average of 70 cm, the Swiss agency said, citing preliminary measurements.

Since 1980, it said, Europe's glaciers have lost about 9.6 metres of ice. About 2.5 metres melted away in a single summer — 2003 — when a heat wave zapped much of Europe, said Michael Zemp, a glacier expert at the University of Zurich.

“What's important for a glacier is winter snow accumulation and a cold summer with not a lot of melting,” Zemp said Monday in a telephone interview. “A bad year for a glacier is a dry winter and a hot summer, and these are the conditions we've been seeing.”

Forecasting their demise is problematic “because we don't know what scenarios there will be, and there are a range of scenarios. This isn't a weather forecast. But we are seeing an accelerated glacial melting.”

In the 13 years spanning 1991-2004, twice as much glacial ice melted in Europe than in the 30 preceding years, climatologists say.

Underscoring a glacier's vulnerability, for every 1 degree rise in temperature, it needs a corresponding 25 per cent increase in precipitation just to maintain its mass.

A few glaciers have more staying power: Switzerland's Great Aletsch Glacier is still 800 to 900 metres thick and seems destined to survive well into the 22nd century.

But data collected by aircraft and satellites since 2002 show that many of Earth's estimated 160,000 glaciers from the Rocky Mountains to the Himalayas have been shrinking.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070122.wglacc0122/BNStory/Science/home

[Diceman]

Like I said, why bother to argue, all the scientists are wrong except the ones on the payroll of the oil companies and the Bush spin doctors.
I see your sig line too, you are a effin genius I bet.
Why bother with science when money is at stake, with any luck Bush will veto stem cell research too, he is that smart. Or is God telling what to do, yeah that's it.....:rolleyes:

[mark beiser]

I haven't seen anyone arguing that global warming isn't happening Dice. Your stuck on the wrong argument. :p

[mdharris68]

Is this documentary out on CD or at the movies or what?

How are we going to stop volcanic erruptions? they add many things to the stratosphere, large amounts of co as well as other particulate matter. I read that Mt. Pinatobu's (sp) eruption in the Phillipines actually caused .5 celsius cooling over the entire earth for quite awhile, years i think.

Put that in your global warming pipe and smoke it.

I'm sorry but anything coming out of corrupt politicians (liberal or conservative) should be critically examined to the umth degree. They always have an agenda which stands for profit. Cycles will happen over and over and over and .........

[jmac00]

Is this documentary out on CD or at the movies or what?

How are we going to stop volcanic erruptions? they add many things to the stratosphere, large amounts of co as well as other particulate matter. I read that Mt. Pinatobu's (sp) eruption in the Phillipines actually caused .5 celsius cooling over the entire earth for quite awhile, years i think.

Put that in your global warming pipe and smoke it.

I'm sorry but anything coming out of corrupt politicians (liberal or conservative) should be critically examined to the umth degree. They always have an agenda which stands for profit. Cycles will happen over and over and over and .........

Ya, if they're so concerned about the environment, why didn't they show the film for free. Instead they made MILLIONS of dollars off this "documentary".
it's all about the money

[firsthouse]

Is this documentary out on CD or at the movies or what?

Yep, it should be out on DVD in your local area. Was in theater in 2006. It was recently available for download from the internet, for free...

P.S. We are all on the Titanic, like it or not. When the ship goes down, we (almost) all go down with it. Why worry, be happy.

[dixie2005]

I tend to agree. I was compelled to believe the evidence that Gore presented in the film. I am not a scientist, nor a historian and I can not speak with any great knowledge with regards to the facts presented in the movie. I do know this however, if you look hard enough, or spend the time doing the research, you can debunk pretty well any scientific or theoretical synopsis, and that's what this is, I choose to believe that it is occuring. That's just my opinion.

[jmac00]

you guys believe the movie "REEFER MADNESS" is scientific fact to 'eh :D :D :D

[RoBoTeq]

The fires out west are a result of climate warming, not a contributing factor.


The fires out west have been cleansing the forests for centuries. It's only because the dumbass liberals who want to live near and in them are always crying about losing their homes that those fires even get media attention.

[bryan l]

I was on the "Its all BS bandwagon" for a LONG time and I have made allot of the same statements people have on this thread, the fires, volcanos ect. BUT may I be the devils advocate:

Fires are natural, its NOT natural to keep them suppressed like most of North America and Europe do.

Volcanic eruptions are natural and cant be avoided.

If you were to take the human aspect out of the global equation I think that YES its inevitable that we will have another ice age regardless if it is caused by outside forces (meteor strike for example). The earth will fluctuate back and forth on the teeter totter. Its not ever going to stay the same for any substantial period of time. Now granted we COULD be on the verge of a natural "cycle" and a ice age is very near. But look what humans have been able to do in the last 200 years, We can single handily cause the extinction of mammals the size of whales, Elephants, countless birds species ect ect just by our pure numbers and hunting practices. THIS is not natural. It lends to the fact that we can manipulate the globe in ways that just 1000 years ago was not even conceivable. Sure you can say that dinosaurs were not knocked off by humans. Some things are just evolution. But we CAN affect things now that were previously out of our control.

I dont think that we understand Jack S@#T when it comes to the global climate, just like our oceans. BUT we have the ability to look at the things around us and TRY to make a difference. The cost of our planet (us included remember) MAY be at stake, yet people dont want to even TRY to make changes that may or may not help. Whats it going to hurt if we gave it a shot and tried? The oil companies will loose money. At least we could TRY. It may be out of our hands, it may be too late, it may be inevitable. You dont know until you try.

Personally I would rather look back in 50 years and say, Well at least we tried. We did the best we could and it is what it is. Or we cold do NOTHING and possibly NOT be around to say, yeah we kind of blew it i guess.

[bryan l]

Is this documentary out on CD or at the movies or what?


It was online at YouTube but its no longer hosted BUT with a few search entries you can see it here:

http://movies.peekvid.com/s4055/e53701/

Movies are always available online. Its illegal and I dont condone the practice. But none the less available.

[gruntly]

I didn't see the flick, so I have no reply except:

1. I'm gonna go watch "The Day After Tomorrow" again... Emmy Rossum's cute.

2. If 6 billion people farted at the same time, this place might stink for a while, but it would either dissipate or we'd have to learn to live with it.

3. Only lawyers, insurance companies and politicians insist on pinning blame. The rest eventually just have to get on with it.

[MadeinUSA]

We are all going to die one day. Do not be scared for you are only traveling to the better place unless you are scared because you are going to hell.

I think that is what this is all about. All the non-believers are scared. All of those evolutionists are freaking out because for them it is the end of the road.

Gore should have just made a picture of him sitting in a church screaming at God and telling him he got the whole experiment wrong because that is about what his movie amounts to. What an idiot.

[Diceman]

We are all going to die one day. Do not be scared for you are only traveling to the better place unless you are scared because you are going to hell.

I think that is what this is all about. All the non-believers are scared. All of those evolutionists are freaking out because for them it is the end of the road.

Gore should have just made a picture of him sitting in a church screaming at God and telling him he got the whole experiment wrong because that is about what his movie amounts to. What an idiot.
Yeah, who believes in evolution anyway, just a bunch of nutty scientists.:rolleyes:
Next time ya get sick don't go to the Dr. stay home, God will heal you.
I see what I'm up against, ignorance and religion.
What a combo.
No use to even argue, I'm done.
I remember how the cigarette companies argued that smoking has never been proven to cause cancer too. Some people probably still beleive that.

[MadeinUSA]

Back in the old days just think of all those fires burning in cabins just a puffing away they used to cook from etc. that were burning about as efficient as a Model T. All of those added up probably equals the amount of “clean” burning cars we have on the road today.

I say we all go back to bicycles and sailboats. :p

We can always drop a nuke in a volcano every once in a while to pop that pimple and give us some shade. :D

You can’t blame Religion, even you said you go twice a year. :D

[seatonheating]

Global warming? Tell that to the people of texas. Hell, it snowed in malibu a couple of days ago.

if anything we global cooling.

I hate it when statements like these are made. Isolated incidents have nothing to do with the big picture. We are talking about a warming up of the entire earth on average. Remember that word "average".

[scrogdog]

I see what I'm up against, ignorance and religion.

You assume a lot but I assure you that you are quite ignorant.

Numebr one, I am not religious. Check the longest running evolution topic in ARP and please note who the OP is. Thank you.

Number two, I support the reduction of C02. It's not going to matter one damn bit to the global warming scenario. Do yourself a favor science-boy... read up on the carbon cycle instead of accepting carte blanch what any particular group of scientists say.

Number three, there are a number of reputable skeptics regading the global warming scenario. I'll just name two here...


Patrick J. Michaels is senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute and professor of natural resources at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. He is a past president of the American Association of State Climatologists and an author of the 2003 climate science “Paper of the Year” selected by the Association of American Geographers. His research has been published in major scientific journals, including Climate Research, Climatic Change, Geophysical Research Letters, Journal of Climate, Nature, and Science. He received his Ph.D. in ecological climatology from the University of Wisconsin at Madison in 1979. His most recent book is Meltdown: The Predictable Distortion of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media.

Dr. Bill Gray, Prof. Emeritus at Colorado State University and perhaps the world's foremost expert on hurricanes and hurricane predictions. While his research funding has been slashed because of his non-conformist views on global warming (he believes that manmade CO-two levels are not the prime cause, that the furor has been more political than scientific, and that while warming is indeed being observed, that a cooling effect will recur within the next few years), Gray continues to speak out and to continue his research. His primary argument -- that global atmospheric (or even annual hurricane) predictive models have NEVER been accurate beyond a period of a few months predictability -- has yet to be fully refuted.

Number four, the art of debate has no room for Ad Hominem attacks. I see you must have been the captain of the debating team but I assure you that where I come from a junior high student would rip you to shreds.


An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") is a logical fallacy consisting of replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.

Other common subtypes of the ad hominem include the ad hominem circumstantial, or ad hominem circumstantiae, an attack which is directed at the circumstances or situation of the arguer; and the ad hominem tu quoque, which objects to an argument by characterizing the arguer as being guilty of the same thing that he is arguing against.

Am I suggesting that your argument is terminally weak? Not exactly. Apparently, however, you do not have the science knowledge to even make a case for what you blindly support.

Finally, science is at its best when there are critics. But I suppose you know all about that and the scientific method, huh "effen genius"?

Try again science boy.

[MadeinUSA]

We are talking about a warming up of the entire earth on average. Remember that word "average".Does this “average” you speak of include the “average” SST (Surface sea temperature) which actually averaged DOWN this past year?

It sure seems funny if the earth was warming every year, how this reading can get colder.

I would think that if Gore was smart enough to invent this here internet contraption, he would be smart enough to solve something as simple as Mother Nature’s faults. :rolleyes:

[seatonheating]

Does this “average” you speak of include the “average” SST (Surface sea temperature) which actually averaged DOWN this past year?

It sure seems funny if the earth was warming every year, how this reading can get colder.

I would think that if Gore was smart enough to invent this here internet contraption, he would be smart enough to solve something as simple as Mother Nature’s faults. :rolleyes:


I'm in total agreeance that we don't have all the facts, therefore we shouldn't jump to conclusions. But, we do know what causes the atmosphere to warm up, why not at least try to restrict it? Do we really need all these emissions anyways? Are we that concerned about big business that we will just sweep it under the rug?

I for one believe that right or wrong, we must do something or we might leave a world for the next generation/generations that isn't worth living in. Which makes me also wonder why we are so insistent on finding the possibility of life on Mars. Gotta be desperation IMO.

[seatonheating]

What happpened to the delete button?

[seatonheating]

Repost sorry.

[scrogdog]

But, we do know what causes the atmosphere to warm up, why not at least try to restrict it?

Uh, not quite. Proper scientific testing is not based on logical extrapolation, nor should it be based on anything other than testing within the environment that the phenomena exists.

In other words, we know how C02 reacts under lab conditions. But that is not the same as knowing how C02 reacts in the atmosphere. There is no repeatable test out there that demonstrates how much C02 causes how much of an affect in the environment where the phenomena exists.

It seems logical to assume given what we know that there is some effect. How much? That we do not know. But the scientific method tells us not to assume that something is true via use of logic. The only way science is done is by repeatable testing. In fact, to assume that something is scientifically valid just because it is logical is the biggest mistake in science. Well, actually... it used to be. lol

One of the problems is that so many different type of scientists believe that thier field of study could be a factor. Space Physicists point to sun cycles. Oceanographers warn that warming affects plankton growth which in turn affects the oceans huge role in the carbon cycle (and not in a good way with regards to global warming). Climatelogists point to trace gases.

Who is right? I don't know. And neither do they. Maybe all of them.

But global warming is real and it is here to stay... maybe. Sure, let's reduce C02 even if it has nothing to do with GW. There are a lot of compelling reasons to do so; such as there is a lot more than just C02 happening at the end of your tailpipe. Such as reducing our dependence on whacky Arabs. As you say, it certainly could not hurt the GW scenario.

You will note, however, that Kyoto is a failure. Only two countries still have a chance to reach thier EXTREMELY modest goal. So, even with good intent we can't get it done.

What has me going about all this is that we should be taking more practicle measures to deal with GW. Let's get away from the coasts... don't you think? Some folks say the human race may not survive this, and all we are going to do is reduce C02? My god... you've got to be kidding me!

That is exactly why this smacks of a political use of science. To only reduce C02 in the face of this supposed great danger is ludicrous.

I am not saying that the C02 folks are wrong... what disturbs me is thier claim that "there is no question that humans have had a large effect on GW" and other statements of that ilk. That's media science for you, it is simply not known by science yet. That's all I am saying. Even a more robust scientific theory than this can still never be called a fact. And yet, it is called just that to the uniformed public in an attempt to sway opinion.

Do you consider that ethical?

[firsthouse]

Further reading for anyone interested.

Warming study promises 'smoking gun'
SETH BORENSTEIN

Associated Press

WASHINGTON — Human-caused global warming is here -- visible in air, water and melting ice -- and is destined to get much worse, an authoritative global scientific report will warn next week.

"The smoking gun is definitely lying on the table as we speak," said top U.S. climate scientist Jerry Mahlman, who reviewed all 1,600 pages of the first segment of a giant four-part report.

The first phase of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is being released in Paris next week. Written by more than 600 scientists and reviewed by another 600 experts and edited by bureaucrats from 154 countries, it includes "a significantly expanded discussion of observation on the climate," said co-chair Susan Solomon, a senior scientist for the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. She and other scientists held a telephone briefing on the report yesterday.

That report will feature an "explosion of new data" on observations of current global warming, Dr. Solomon said.

Dr. Solomon and others wouldn't go into specifics, but said the 12-page summary for policy makers will be released to the public Feb. 2.

The full report will be issued in four phases over the year.

Global warming is "happening now, it's very obvious," said Dr. Mahlman, a former director of NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory who lives in Boulder, Colo. "When you look at the temperature of the Earth, it's pretty much a no-brainer."

Look for an "iconic statement," a simple but strong and unequivocal summary, on how global warming is occurring, said one of the authors, Kevin Trenberth, of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, also in Boulder.

The second part of the report, to be released in April, will feature a blockbuster chapter on how global warming is already changing health, species, engineering and food production, said NASA scientist Cynthia Rosenzweig, the author.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070123.wwarming23/BNStory/Science/home

[billva]

I'm sorry but anything coming out of corrupt politicians (liberal or conservative) should be critically examined to the umth degree. They always have an agenda which stands for profit. Cycles will happen over and over and over and .........

This is the main cause.

Good post.

[renaissanse man]

Al Gore has as much credibility as a fox (a really stiff, boring, awkward fox) in a hen house. Okay, maybe fox was the wrong word. Idiot in a hen house. There, that's more like it :). Maybe this thread belongs in arp. Arpa?

[chiller mekanik]

Yaaawwwnnnnnnnnnn.

[RoBoTeq]

I hate it when statements like these are made. Isolated incidents have nothing to do with the big picture. We are talking about a warming up of the entire earth on average. Remember that word "average".

This may be a case of isolated incidenses and indeed the world has been going through a warming period for the past few centuries, but one other fact is that the same "scientific" community that is boo-hooing over global warming were just 25 years ago telling us all that we were going to die because of global "COOLING". Even promted Paul Newman to be in a really bad movie about when the world froze over.

Now, because they just can't figure out which scenario will scare us out of our money faster, these sci-fi-scientists are coming up with global warming scenarios that are going to create global cooling conditions that I suppose will result in global fog.

[RoBoTeq]

One other thought to process; If mankind is indigenous to the planet Earth, then everything we do is natural and should be allowed to run it's course.

[gruntly]

One other thought to process; If mankind is indigenous to the planet Earth, then everything we do is natural and should be allowed to run it's course.

That's pretty thin, ya know... really thin.

We can't breath under water either.
We can't fly?
We're not supposed to be driven everywhere.
And these artificial climates we create... Indiginous, I'm sure.

We change things for the good and the bad. The entire industrial revolution revolves around doing things to improve our lives for convenience sake, without thought for consequence. 96 men died building the Hoover dam. another 11 died building the Golden Gate bridge and so on and so on. Just sacrificial lambs for convenience sake, I guess. Historically, right up to today, if people didn't care about other human beings, what makes you think they had environment on their mind? And what about your children's and grandchildren's environment?

:rolleyes:

If you always change lanes always focusing forward and never looking beside and behind you, one day it will catch up to you in a bad way.

[bluestone]

Just a point to ponder, saw a man on the news this morning, said America was causing global warming, not other countries in the world but specifically the US. If the huggers could see past our boarders to the ecological destruction in the far east, not only would they never buy another chineese made item, but they be up in arms to have Bush ' nuke em'. It's pathetic we must tear this country down when we are the world leader in trying to protect the enviroment and leave the econmy viable enough not to have a world wide recession. I wonder how many folks on the bandwagon have investments that contribute to enviromental destruction in the far east, and would they be the first to divest, I think not, put up or shut up!

[gruntly]

Just a point to ponder, saw a man on the news this morning, said America was causing global warming, not other countries in the world but specifically the US. If the huggers could see past our boarders to the ecological destruction in the far east, not only would they never buy another chineese made item, but they be up in arms to have Bush ' nuke em'. It's pathetic we must tear this country down when we are the world leader in trying to protect the enviroment and leave the econmy viable enough not to have a world wide recession. I wonder how many folks on the bandwagon have investments that contribute to enviromental destruction in the far east, and would they be the first to divest, I think not, put up or shut up!

Hey, I agree... The US and Canada ain't that bad. The biggest problem is the countries that have lax or no laws concerning emissions & pollution. That, as well as their total lack of concern for their own countrymen, is a huge reason why they can manufacture so cheaply. The only way to get them in line is to pull the rug out from under them, so to speak.

But, I'm sure the zillionaire corporate owners know this already.

[bryan l]

It was online at YouTube but its no longer hosted BUT with a few search entries you can see it here:

http://movies.peekvid.com/s4055/e53701/

Movies are always available online. Its illegal and I dont condone the practice. But none the less available.

The link I posted above does work. I found that I had to switch to part 2 and then back to part one and it starts........
Whatever side your on or if your on the fence, at least WATCH it.

[RoBoTeq]

That's pretty thin, ya know... really thin.

We can't breath under water either.
We can't fly?
We're not supposed to be driven everywhere.
And these artificial climates we create... Indiginous, I'm sure.

We change things for the good and the bad. The entire industrial revolution revolves around doing things to improve our lives for convenience sake, without thought for consequence. 96 men died building the Hoover dam. another 11 died building the Golden Gate bridge and so on and so on. Just sacrificial lambs for convenience sake, I guess. Historically, right up to today, if people didn't care about other human beings, what makes you think they had environment on their mind? And what about your children's and grandchildren's environment?

:rolleyes:

If you always change lanes always focusing forward and never looking beside and behind you, one day it will catch up to you in a bad way.

Maybe if you stood up......on top of a tall ladder, my point won't be going over your head.

[gruntly]

Maybe if you stood up......on top of a tall ladder, my point won't be going over your head.

That's like... a personal attack, right?

[glennac]

Everyone should google "ice caps on Mars melting".

It has been documented that the polar ice caps on Mars have been melting (getting smaller over the last decade). Scientists have concluded that this is the result of the sun getting hotter. I guess Al Gore would say that this is caused by man making the earth hotter and therefore radiating heat to Mars. The sun getting hotter also affects the earth. Man is not the major factor here. Red China is now the major and growing producer of so call global warming gases, etc. I say to Gore stop trying to make us into a third world country and let us move forward and stop saying there is no discussion and that “I am right and the rest of you greedy Americans are wrong”. :eek: :eek:

[gruntly]

Everyone should google "ice caps on Mars melting".
Red China is now the major and growing producer of so call global warming gases, etc.

I so totally agree!! But who's feeding that?


I say to Gore stop trying to make us into a third world country and let us move forward and stop saying there is no discussion and that “I am right and the rest of you greedy Americans are wrong”. :eek: :eek:

It ain't Gore turning the North Western Hemisphere into a third world. I revert to your other quote above, but thats the economics of things.

I believe in cyclic events, absolutely, Europe had 80 years of no winters back in the 15 or 16 hundreds. Talk about global warming, but as an analogy, every system on the shuttle as at least one back up and redundant safeguard feature and for as all the careful planning, care & technology, look what happened to that... Twice even... Does this planet have even one back-up or safeguard systems for us to survive?

It's a planetary thing... not just the US or Germany or China... I think the US is thinking the world wants it to pick up the tab... That blame habit is just something the world has learned from insurance companies & politicians. In reality, when I find garbage in my backyard I pick it up... I don't expect the neighbour to do it... Unless its from his dog or something and then I'll pick it up just so's I can fling it across the fence and stick it to his window.

I'm not trying to save the world... just the little piece of the place I live at.