????Heat Load Calc Question????

[climatecontrol]

I was wondering if there was a way to conduct a heat load calculation with out having a program on a computer, I do not have a laptop or a hand held computer, I do plan on getting one in the next few months when I can afford it (after taxes). I write all my proposals out by hand, and the load calc all I reall do is just go by square footage, count windows, registers and returns. Anyways I was wondering if there is a better way to do one without the technology, Is there a worksheet I can print off and use?

[Midwest]

I have a copy of a manual J hand written form we used to use. I'd have to fax or mail to you as I don't have it electronically and you may not be able to download it in that manner anyway. Get me an address or fax # & I'll search for a hard copy if you want.

[dajw02]

The old style handwritten manual J should be ok, but check your local building codes. Not all places will allow hand written manual J's, such as in Central Florida ll counties require manual j to be completed by ACCA Aproved programs.

David W

[climatecontrol]

I have a copy of a manual J hand written form we used to use. I'd have to fax or mail to you as I don't have it electronically and you may not be able to download it in that manner anyway. Get me an address or fax # & I'll search for a hard copy if you want.


Yeah I would appreciate it

FAX# 402-558-9607

Thank You very much Midwest

[climatecontrol]

Attn: Eric Petersen

[cem-bsee]

without the info from ACCA Manual J, the form helps but little!
you need the setup values for your area,
from that one reads the tables for the U values for the various items: windows, doors, walls, etc.

Manual J ~$150 --
or get ASHRAE Fundamentals = LOTS of info ~$150
this info may become obsolete in 40y --

[dash]

Where are you located?

Why not use the office/home computer?

[beenthere]

I was wondering if there was a way to conduct a heat load calculation with out having a program on a computer, I do not have a laptop or a hand held computer, I do plan on getting one in the next few months when I can afford it (after taxes). I write all my proposals out by hand, and the load calc all I reall do is just go by square footage, count windows, registers and returns. Anyways I was wondering if there is a better way to do one without the technology, Is there a worksheet I can print off and use?


Sorry, I just gotta ask.

If you don't have a computer, how are you posting here.

As in, why not use the one your using now.

[climatecontrol]

Sorry, I just gotta ask.

If you don't have a computer, how are you posting here.

As in, why not use the one your using now.

Okay well I have a computer in the office what I am saying is I would like to calculate the Heat load on site, I cant bring my desktop computer to the house and set it up at the kitchen table, No, I need a lap top or a hand held and I cant afford one right now, so I am asking you if there is a better way of doing one by hand.

[climatecontrol]

Where are you located?

Why not use the office/home computer?

How am I supposed to enter the information from the house to my office computer from across town?? If you let me know I would appreciate it. Yeah I could get all the information from the house and come back to the office but that would not be good, because I tell the customer let me get the information and go back to the office to see what size you need?, No, I want to do that onsite. I dont know how you expect me to do a heat load calc with my office computer at an in home sales call. ?????????? Please fill me in!!!

[dash]

" Yeah I could get all the information from the house and come back to the office but that would not be good, because I tell the customer let me get the information and go back to the office to see what size you need?,"

That's how ,exactly what you said!!

That said ,a lot of people on this forum have said the give the customer the quote ,based on what they are replacing,rules of dumb,etc.,then only do the calculation if they get the job.

Cost difference for it needing a larger unit is small,and if it needs a smaller unit they reduce the price a little.

Might be the best solution for you,at least for know.

[cem-bsee]

my old boss taught me to never give anyone a report without sleeping, then reviewing --

buy a laptop on time -- I still review after a good sleep

[doctordave68]

wow !

[beenthere]

You could cal all the info into who ever is in the office and have them run the load for you.

Doing a manual J on paper isn't a 5 minute thing.

I have a laptop, and still don't do a load calc at the house.

If its a replacement, and its been maintaining temp ok, I use that size unt for my price.

We get the job, then size it right. As Dash said, there isn't alot of price difference between one size and the next.

I've never lost a job because I didn't do the calc at the hoiuse.


If its a new cut in, I still ball park the size for the estimate, if they want a price on the spott.


Some customers might be impressed with you doing a load calc on the spott, but most won't buy just because you did.

[climatecontrol]

" Yeah I could get all the information from the house and come back to the office but that would not be good, because I tell the customer let me get the information and go back to the office to see what size you need?,"

That's how ,exactly what you said!!

That said ,a lot of people on this forum have said the give the customer the quote ,based on what they are replacing,rules of dumb,etc.,then only do the calculation if they get the job.

Cost difference for it needing a larger unit is small,and if it needs a smaller unit they reduce the price a little.

Might be the best solution for you,at least for know.

So your telling me that I should base the price on their existing equipment?
Okay lets say they have a 5 ton system, so according to you I should quote them a 5 ton system which gets pretty damn expensive, but then I go back to the office and I find out the previous install dealer oversized by 2 tons, and they look at my price (5 ton price) and the other guys price which is exactly what they need (a 3 ton system), how does that make me look? Incompetent! Stupid! I want to make sure I tell my customers everything the same day not have to tell them well I have to estimate what you need and then if you decide to go with us I will get you what you really need, no thats not how customer service works, they called you out there to get the info and they better get the info. Thats like going to the doctor and he just looks at you and says, well it looks like you have cancer (without running tests on you), then a few days later he says, oops never mind after we ran the tests you dont have it all. Thats not what I am about, I want my customers to not have to wait.

[dash]

So your telling me that I should base the price on their existing equipment?
Okay lets say they have a 5 ton system, so according to you I should quote them a 5 ton system which gets pretty damn expensive, but then I go back to the office and I find out the previous install dealer oversized by 2 tons, and they look at my price (5 ton price) and the other guys price which is exactly what they need (a 3 ton system), how does that make me look? Incompetent! Stupid! I want to make sure I tell my customers everything the same day not have to tell them well I have to estimate what you need and then if you decide to go with us I will get you what you really need, no thats not how customer service works, they called you out there to get the info and they better get the info. Thats like going to the doctor and he just looks at you and says, well it looks like you have cancer (without running tests on you), then a few days later he says, oops never mind after we ran the tests you dont have it all. Thats not what I am about, I want my customers to not have to wait.


I wasn't telling you anything,my first post merely asked a question,the second was a mention or suggestion at the most.

You seem to have some problem,not sure what I did to ruffle your feathers,this time I'll know what I did.

My final answer is,then get off you wallet and do it the exact way you want to,today!

BTW,how do your customers get it sized right today,rules of thumb/dumb???

[schmuck]

I use a load sheet from Trane. It is super easy to use. I can send copies if youd like.....JLM

[climatecontrol]

I use a load sheet from Trane. It is super easy to use. I can send copies if youd like.....JLM

Please do, I would appreciate it, Thank you.

Fax # is 402-558-9607
Attn: Eric Petersen
Company: Climate Control

[schmuck]

Give me a little time. They are in my office at the college........John

[climatecontrol]

Not a problem, I do appreciate it. Thank you

[beenthere]

Not a problem, I do appreciate it. Thank you


So how do you curently do it ?

[climatecontrol]

So how do you curently do it ?

Well I go into a customer's house, count registers and cold air returns(calculate cfm), measure each room (for needed cfm and square footage), if there is a walk out basement add roughly a half a ton, then basically ask simple questions like, "Are there any rooms in the house that tend to get a little cooler or warmer? Do you tend to turn you t-stat up or down quite a bit?, Does your current unit run for long periods of time or cycle on and off rather quickly? basically just things that would normally be talked about. Once this is done I use a multiplier my boss gave me and calculate BTU's needed.

I know this really isn't as accurate as it could be but thats all I have to go with. Thats all I was told to do, and since i've been on HVAC-Talk I noticed everyone telling people to get a proper load calc done and telling them things that should be done while doing a load calc, it got me curious to how accurate my way really is, thats why I want to know if there is a better way to do those by hand and I have a couple people tell me they were going to fax me over a sheet and its been a couple of days and I got nothing.

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!

[beenthere]

Then using the method your currently using, and going by the exsisting size unit is about the same thing.

I think you'll find any quick short form paper is no more acturate then what your already doing.

I find very few people that expect an exact size given on the spot.



On retro fits, when people want the price right away,I tell the people that I'm baseing my estimate on the size of their current unit. And will do a full load back at the office. And adjust if needed.

They never have a problem with that.

Don't get too concerned about doing the calc at the house.
Sell yourself first.

[comfortair]

Depends on why you must do a load calc. I am a liscensed contractor here in the mid-west with over 13 years experience in the HVAC industry. I use the program HVAC CALC and have become quite proficient with the program. And believe me if you were to go to a potential customers home to give an estimate for a replacement, and ran a full Manual J, you would bore them to death. The only time I use the program is when I'm bidding new construction. Before I purchased my lap-top and the program, I used to use a generic formula for determining furnace size and condenser size for replacements and/ or remodels. When compared to a load calculation my formula was a bit oversized. But I never had any call backs due to a/c not dehumidifying, or a furn. not satisfying the stat or running on limit due to oversizing.

[comfortair]

I have to agree with beenthere and your boss. I would keep doing it like you have been. Besides you'll never get a totally accurate calculation on a retro-fit job.... Too many variables that you cannot see. For example: Insulation in the exterior walls. One more example: When replacing windows at my own house, we decided to remove the master bed room windows and cut the wall for a sliding glass door to get out to the deck and pool. When I cut the wall below the window out, I found a very thin batten of insulation in each stud pocket that was only about 1-1/2" thick tops. I mean you can't necessarily assume that a 2x4 ext. wall will have 3-1/2" of insul.

[dan sw fl]

I know this really isn't as accurate as it could be but thats all I have to go with.

Thats all I was told to do, and since i've been on HVAC-Talk I noticed everyone telling people to get a proper load calc done and telling them things that should be done while doing a load calc, it got me curious to how accurate my way really is,

thats why I want to know if there is a better way to do those by hand and I have a couple people tell me they were going to fax me over a sheet and its been a couple of days and I got nothing.

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!

Providing contact info in your profile would be a start to helping yourself.

One who demands a bid ON-THE-SPOT may just be SHOPPING
the cheapest system anyway.

A WELL APPLIED Rule-of-thumb which considers
the Type/Age/Size of house, Window Orientation and YOUR REGION
will get you in the ball park ( within 1/2 ton or ~ 10,000 BTUs on heating ) > 95% of the time.

It's ALL About EXPERIENCE &
Windows ... U-values & SHGC

[dash]

I have to agree with beenthere and your boss. I would keep doing it like you have been. Besides you'll never get a totally accurate calculation on a retro-fit job.... Too many variables that you cannot see. For example: Insulation in the exterior walls. One more example: When replacing windows at my own house, we decided to remove the master bed room windows and cut the wall for a sliding glass door to get out to the deck and pool. When I cut the wall below the window out, I found a very thin batten of insulation in each stud pocket that was only about 1-1/2" thick tops. I mean you can't necessarily assume that a 2x4 ext. wall will have 3-1/2" of insul.



Try removing an electrical outlet cover,and see what's in the wall.