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View Full Version : Trane XL14i and Lennox XP15: Same Class? Intangibles?



bh2004
12-29-2006, 07:20 PM
Hi,

First off, let me thank all of you experts who post to this forum regularly. I feel like I can meet the sales reps on a somewhat more equal playing field having now read so many informative posts. I want my contractor to make a healthy profit (a healthy profit usually equals good service), but I don't want to be taken either. Your site makes that possible.

I live in an 1100 sq foot, one story, wood contemporary house built around 1982. We're adding a 360 square foot addition right where the 14 year old Amana - loud as a freight train, but still kicking - sits. Rather than moving it to the other side of the house, we're going to retire it and replace with a new high-end system.

Now, I hate to pose the Trane vs. Lennox question again, because from what I can tell, I'll do fine with either one. I'm leaning toward the Trane simply because the Trane rep told me "I sell Tranes, but can't say anything bad about the Lennox." While he pointed out some advantages of the Trane (warranty, parts and service availability, and name recognition - not bad when selling the house), the Lennox rep just swore by his product. Trane Rep +1 . The Trane rep was also a lot more thorough, spent over an hour with me, and gave me a slightly - but not significant, we're talking a couple hundred dollars - better deal on the XL14i system (although it's a wash, because I will need to do some electrical prep [move the wire] for the Trane that the Lennox people would do as part of their service). He also explained to me that "up to 15 SEER" can mean a lot of different things, but then worked out the parts (AHU: 4TEE3F40 and HP: 4TWX4030) and got me to 14.75, 24000 SEN, 38000 BTU and said that's the best he could do with that unit. He'd do better with an XL16i, but didn't want to do 3 tons in my house, 2.5 being ideal, and the XL16i diidn't come in the 2.5 tons. Rather than sell me a 3 ton XL16i, he said the XL14i was best for me. Another point for the Trane guy, although this was not an issue for the Lennux guy, who had the XP15 in 2.5 tons and also insisted on that tonnage.

Anyway, does that sound right to you guys? He pulled up a special Trane website (even gave me his password) that helped him to calculate these numbers (different AHUs and different HPs). Still, that doesn't quite get me to the IRS tax credit (not that big a deal). The Lennox rep was a bit less specific, but the XP15 is a good deal quieter than the Trane XL14i, it has won some awards for design, and is about the same price, and will likely yield the tax credit. Even though I was less impressed with the Lennox rep, it's probably because he was younger and still learning the ropes. I also thought his overemphasizing the quiteness of his unit complete with sound effects on the webpage was a bit much. Compared with my 13 year-old Amana freight train, any new high-end system will be fine. Still, his company is a good one, local, and I'd feel comfortable with one or the other (it seems that all you have to go on in terms of "comfort level" is the salesman who is working on commission - kind of tough for the homeowner.

So, instead of asking which is better, Trane or Lennox, (they're both very good), what intangibles - in addition to the sales rep - should I consider when making my choice? The price is going to be roughly the same, both companies are reputable (one has a sales rep with a few more years under his belt, but no reason to penalize the other), and I think I'd do well with either one.

Second, and more important, are the Trane XL14i and the Lennox XP15 really in the same class, like a Lexus vs. Infinity, and it's the superficial things that matter, or are they in fact in different classes? Apples and apples or apples and oranges? (The extra 2 year labor on the Trane seems like a difference, but really, what are the chances either one will fail in two years?) My research has led me to believe that they are in the same class, and hence I'm willing to pay the same for each one. I'm about to flip a coin, but if someone can offer some insight into why one might be better for me (1980s contemporary house whose insulation is mediocre and we'll likely be selling it in 8-10 years), please do.

Again, thanks for all your input. I think I did better with the Trane rep because I met with him only after I had educated myself here. I hadn't done that with the Lennox guy, which may have created an entirely different experience.

BH

totaleclipse
12-29-2006, 08:44 PM
The two systems you are looking at are pretty comparable. The one thing that will set one unit apart from the other is the way that it is installed. You said that both companies are reputable, which is good. The last thing I would consider is price, which you say the price is close, so that makes it easy to not take into consideration.
Now, as far as equipment is concerned, we are a Lennox dealer, so I have more experience with Lennox, and I am also slightly bias, however I don’t have anything bad to say about Trane. I like the new Trane units better than the old ones mainly because some of there old designs were harder (to me) to work on and service. Trane's Climatuff compressor is probly the best res. HP compressor that is currently available. The Lennox unit has easily removable panels to clean the cond. coil which is essential to keep the unit operating at peak efficiency where as I don’t think the Tranes panels come off quite as easy. Both units have the compressor inside of an insulated "box" so both will be quite, especially compared to the unit you have now. The Lennox unit does have a weird shaped fan blade to keep the noise down even further, something that the Trane unit doesn’t, however with the Trane having the top on it, that helps with noise.
Hope this helps some.

P.S. Good to see I am not the only one that likes the flip-a-coin method of making a hard desision. :D

heatpumpguru
12-29-2006, 10:01 PM
Going with a 2 stage XL16i unit is fine if load is 2.5 ton,it will stay in low stage longer.

BaldLoonie
12-30-2006, 03:26 AM
You are looking at very similar machines. Yes, the XP15 is the quietest on the market so if it is beside the deck, it will be a lot quieter than an XL14i. The Trane uses a scroll compressor, made in a joint venture plant with Copeland & Lennox so very similar technology to the Copeland in the Lennox.

Indoors, sound is a function of duct design & size. Both variable speed blowers could be quiet if ducts are sized right. Both could be noisy if the ducts are undersized, noisier than what you have since the variable speed motor will work harder to overcome the undersizing.

The Lennox with the right blower can hit 15.20 SEER but with a measley 8.2 HSPF. The Trane is 14.75 with 8.4 HSPF. Both are a LONG WAY from meeting the tax credits. If you want them, find a Nordyne dealer. They have a new coil out that gets 15 SEER, 9.15 HSPF and 13+ EER to get the credits with a single stage R410a heat pump.

bh2004
12-30-2006, 07:16 AM
Thanks a lot for your comments. I'm still undecided, but have the weekend to make up my mind.

Couple of other questions if you don't mind.

1) Both reps pushed hard, and probably rightly so, for a variable speed air handler. That's fine, and that's what I'll likely do. But I'm looking at the Trane brochure right now and noticed that in addition to "variable speed" there are also 2,3 and 4 speed AH units. Can someone explain what the difference is?

2) What might be the advantages/disadvantages of an XL16i 3 ton 2-stage vs. the XL14i one-stage variable? I think in terms of cost it's going to be a wash in the end, but I am not just concerned with saving money on energy, but also in simply using less energy to do my little part to help the environment. That is, I'm willing to pay a bit more to use less for environmental reasons. ON THE OTHER HAND, I also want the best system for my house, and the Trane rep said the XL14i was the best for me (even though he'd make a few hundred more for himself, I'm sure, if he sold me the 16XLi).

3) Finally, the Lennox rep threw in an HC10 air cleaner. I thought this was like that extra paring knife that gets tossed into the knife sets sold on TV, but maybe it's a nice extra that makes the Lennox a bit more attractive. On the other hand, looking at the brochure, it looks like a fancy air filter? Is this actually a standard inclusion that a sales rep used as an "extra"?

Thanks again for all of your help!

BH

aircooled53
12-30-2006, 08:55 AM
Stick with the Trane you will be happier and have a machine that will perform, be quiet and insure comfort.

Variable Speed vs Variable Drive

Multi-speed
1) High - Cooling
2) Med- Not used
3) Med Low-Not used
4) Low- Heating

Variable Drive/ Dip switches

1)
2) Tonnage

3) Cooling
4) CFM 350,400,450

5)
6) Comfort- R Enhaced Mode delay

7) Heating
8) CFM settings

BaldLoonie
12-30-2006, 09:12 AM
With Trane standard air handlers, only 1 speed is used unless the dealer buys a speed change it, then 2 are. The TEC series are 3 speed motors. But I would bet 90% of installers leave them the way they come from the factory and don't set according to duct conditions.

The TEE VS air handlers have Comfort R, which is a delayed ramp up profile to really enhance humidity removal in the summer. I use it in the winter too for warmer air from my heat pump. A variable speed blower you tell what airflow you want, the motor varies speed based on duct conditions. As a filter gets dirty, the motor tries harder to move the same air. On a standard motor, you get less airflow. I found out how restrictive the 3M Ultra filters are by hearing my VS motor running its hardest to move air. With a standard motor, I would have froze my coil or not been able to cool the house. And you get about 1 to 1.5 points more SEER and a HSPF advantage with VS motor since it uses less juice.

bh2004
12-30-2006, 10:44 AM
You guys have been a real help. I think I am going to go with the Trane, but will bring in one more Trane rep so I'll have a comparison. I liked the first guy a lot, as I think he did the best job educating me. So unless there's a major difference, I'll probably stick with him.

Thanks again for your help and Happy New Year.

BH

white6294
12-30-2006, 02:01 PM
i am with heatpumpguru, a 3 ton 2 stage 16 seer would be your best choice, it would save more money over the 8-10 years you plan on staying, and would be in low stage most of the time, taking more humidity out of your house. i am surprised that the salesman left that option out.i believe that is why they dont make 2 stage units in halve tons, because uosizing halve a ton wouldnt have a bad effect.

mark beiser
12-30-2006, 08:17 PM
If you want them, find a Nordyne dealer. They have a new coil out that gets 15 SEER, 9.15 HSPF and 13+ EER to get the credits with a single stage R410a heat pump.

Yeah, but then you are stuck with Nordyne equipment. :(

BaldLoonie
12-31-2006, 08:46 AM
We've put a few in, only one that did the 15 though. Seems like decent enough equipment. Big which means wide fin spacing & single row coil unlike many. Component access isn't as good as A-S/Trane but can reach in through a service door which most units can't. This is all with a 13 SEER units. Copeland scroll vs Mexican recip. Swept wing fan blade which the XR13 doesn't have. Composite base pan like Trane. R410a which still isn't available in XR13. Only thing I would like to have seen is demand defrost. The AH didn't have Comfort R but we did hook up DOD from an IAQ. Wish it had the CFM LED. It was so quiet didn't think it was moving 1200 CFM but good airflow and customers were tickled pink.

Biggest advantage is price and in this cutthroat environment, if we can deliver the tax credits and utility incentives that A-S/Trane and about everyone else can't and do it for so much less... and 12 month financing at no cost to the dealer...

Of course our me-too salesman prefer to quote the B model A-S since they are usually up against lower priced Trane dealers... but maybe not for long since Trane will start selling direct next week cutting out the great service of their former distributor :mad:

bh2004
01-03-2007, 09:32 AM
Thanks again.

We're going to go with the 14XLi - the Trane guy, who we really like a lot, just doesn't want me to go up to 3 tons. I respect that - he really seems to be looking out for our best interests.

NOW - new question (The Trane guy is indifferent to this, btw).

The current heat pump needs to be moved to begin work on the addition. BUT we could just remove it now and operate on the emergency electrical heat for 6 weeks from the old air handler (which will also be replaced). Then, when the addition is ready, we could install the new system and have it properly calibrated and charged (or whatever you guys do!) for the house + addition. This would also allow me to use the same electrician (from the GC) who's wiring the addition to run the high voltage wire and circuit for the new HVAC to the other side of the house (where we're putting it). In fact, because this would allow us to put the unit in after we're done with the addition, we could keep it on the side of the house where the addition is, thereby obviating the need to run a new high voltage line to the other side of the house.

The point of doing this would hopefully be to calibrate it right once for the house with the addition, rather than having to redo it once the addition was on.

On the other hand, we're going to have to eat 4-6 weeks of high heating costs I guess. But that shouldn't be that bad, should it? We've got a pretty temperate climate here in North Carolina (it will be high 50s today, and is moving to low 70s this weekend), and while it can get cold in January and February, it's just for a few weeks.

What do you guys think? Is it better to get the whole thing set up for 1460 sq feet rather than once for 1100 and then for the extra 360?

Thanks!

BaldLoonie
01-03-2007, 09:43 AM
stay with the old furnace. If you put in the new one, it can get filthy from construction dust no matter how much they try not to.

kevinmac
01-03-2007, 11:34 AM
Before going with any size decision, make sure they do a load calc. An oversized unit will not dehumidify. Don't go with anyone that decides to just guesstimate.