Some Educated Guidance Please

[Ned355]

Hello my name in Ned. I live in Northern Saskatchewan, Canada. I am a third year plumbing apprecntice. I work for a plumbing, heating and electrical company. The community is approx. 2000 people so there is only one other company in the community that does the same work as us. My journeyman is a journeyman that is never on site or in the field. He just hands you a work order and tells you to go figure it out yourself. I know that, that is not the correct way to learn but it is all that I have at this time. Our company hired a new journeyman who appeared to be alot better but then his past caught up to him and we learned that he had a major crack habit and has been awol for several months. So I am all along once again....

Here is what I am facing. We install several Armstong furnaces. Most installs work out well with no call backs. We have a few that are just killing us will call backs. They all seem to be issuses with pressure switches. Or so it appears. The one that is hurting the most right now will run for a week and then shut down. The code on the boards says pressure switch. Cycle the power and the furnace will run again for days or even weeks. I have checked venting and have found nothing. Pressure switch tests fine with a multimeter and I have even changed the pressure switch 2 times (doing as I was told). On the older style Armstrongs we have piped the condensate with a tee and and vent and everything has been fine. On this neweer Armstrong the installation manual calls for the condensate trap. My journeyman (old school) told me the traps are a waste of time and to pipe them the way we do the other furnaces. So on this one that is what was done. Not sure where to turn anymore. My journeyman now figures it is the board and wants to change that out. I do not want to become a "parts changer". I want to become a proper troubleshooter.

I am not asking for someone to spoon feed me any answers as I want to learn and figure this stuff out. Just not sure where to turn for help anymore. I Feel lost and out of control now. I have read several post and feel that the knowledge of this fourm is second to none and would love a teacher/mentor like some of the people here.

Thanks in advance....Ned

[rich pickering]

How far north? You need to get your hands on a magnahelic or manometer and check the pressures. Talk to your rep, he should be able to help.

[mgenius33]

The older Armstrong units were likely internally trapped.
Install a trap if the mfg. instructs you to do so.
You don't want flu gases escaping into the drain line.
Depending on where the unit is located, you may need to install heat tape on the trap and line.

[Ned355]

La Ronge... We have a manometer. I have never seen it used or used it on anything but a gas valve. When sent out to the said furnace early last week with a Cleveland pressure switch in hand I grabbed the manometer off my journeymans desk. He asked me what I was doing and when I told him he made comment that I did not need it. Just uses the little Allen key, if the furnace runs proper it is good. So I left the building....sad but very true.

[Ned355]

First thing this morning I asked if we heard anything from the customer over the weekend. The answer was no. Then this evening I got a text from the boss saying the customer just called and informed him that when he got home from work tonight there was once again no heat. So if I can find one of those traps in the shop tomorrow (journeyman threw them in the garbage...his comment...they should reduce the price of there furnaces and leave these parts out...I wonder how much they cost to make anyway). I will install it and see what happens. If I can get the manometer off his desk without to many questions I will take it for the truck ride as well.

[mason]

First thing this morning I asked if we heard anything from the customer over the weekend. The answer was no. Then this evening I got a text from the boss saying the customer just called and informed him that when he got home from work tonight there was once again no heat. So if I can find one of those traps in the shop tomorrow (journeyman threw them in the garbage...his comment...they should reduce the price of there furnaces and leave these parts out...I wonder how much they cost to make anyway). I will install it and see what happens. If I can get the manometer off his desk without to many questions I will take it for the truck ride as well.

Sent you an email

[Ned355]

Received your email...thank you.

Was back out to the house today and installed the trap on the condensate drain. Put the manometer on that replacement Cleveland pressure switched. Adjusted the pressure a bit. Then put the furnace through its paced. Everything seems to be function as normal but that part is nothing new. Ran it through some 0.5 degrees Celsius cycles just to see how it cycled. Then let is buck her buck until I got the stat from 16.0 degrees Celsius to 21.5 degrees Celsius. Seemed to function as it should. Today is not as cold as it has been (with the windchill it is has -38 degrees Celsius) but it is still rather cold. So now we wait again....

[monkeyman#1]

I have no advice to offer on this repair. Just wanted to say, job well done. Your journeyman sounds like a real joker. Keep your attitude of troubleshooting, not part swapping. It wont be long until YOU are the one guys are calling for advice. Good luck.

[uniservice]

You sound like you're sharper than your Journeyman. The thing i remember most about my apprenticeship, was taking the installation manuals home at night, or at least to my truck, and reading them during lunch or breaks. I too had to work and get my training with an older guy that we called "The Animal." He was very unorthidoxed (sp) in his work habits and usually drank his lunch. Arguing with him about setting up and starting up all the new-fangled equipment was totally futile. But,,,if I read the instructions, I would have a better knowledge of what was going on with the performance and operation of the equipment. I used to go back to jobs and hang gauges and run performance tests on some startups, on my own. Never got caught doing these checks, but found out a lot of information that was never revealed to the "Animal." For instance he always installed A/C-Heat Pump coils in the return of all furnaces, whether electric, gas or oil. Told me it was easier. When I asked him about premature heat exchanger failure,he just gave me a blank stare, and told me that it made more money for the company replacing failed furnaces.

[doc havoc]

Ned, one possibility that was causing your pressure switch trips was the lack of the trap in the condensate line. The inducer pulls through the heat exchanger, creating a negative. This negative pull can hold water back in the secondary hx and cause nuisance pressure switch trips by partially restricting the passages through the secondary with condensate. Also, have you verified that the venting is sized in accordance with the install instructions? If it is borderline and you have troubles again, maybe you should look at upsizing the venting. Keep up the good attitude and you will go far. Tell your journeyman to suck a fart or buy your own manometer and/or magnehelic gauge.

[Ned355]

It seems like I have learned more from reading posts and trying different things on my own than from my journeyman. I will not bash him to badly as he is my journeyman and I hate to be to disrespectful. I just want to learn... I am also in a funky spot as my brother-in-law is the owner of the company. We have had it out on many occasions and it has really hurt our relationship outside of work. He ran a very successful (still does) electrical company but saw that opportunity to to grow the business and jumped into the plumbing, heating and air conditioning business. Hired himself a journeyman and has been fumbling along since. I won't even get into the a/c issues as I will save that for our cooling season. We had an a/c guy but they let him go and then informed me that I was the new a/c guy. Nothing like being thrown into the fire. I am sure it is a good way to learn but man oh man I made (and will continue, just as long as they are not the same) mistakes. Thank goodness for this forum.... There is so much information on this forum that up until this post I never thought I would have to ask a question. It is just getting to the point of being very frustrated.

I turn 40 in February and my wife asked me what I wanted....a manometer made the top of the list so here is hoping. If not, I will get one ordered the day after my birthday. Just hate to spoil it for her is she already ordered me one.

Not sure what it is, maybe the extreme cold but I am dealing with one furnace and rtu after another right now (not to mention the 3 frozen up houses - no heat in crawl spaces and heat tape either not working or unplugged) . I think I have learned more in the last couple of weeks than ever. With the exception of the big boss (who is never on tools anymore) and our book keeper every employee within our company are further north doing 2 fire halls and 14 houses (both electrical & mechanical). So I am the only guy in town currently. Some stuff is tough to do along, especially when you are unsure and second guess yourself. It will come in time but I am sure but that does not help the customers that are my firsts for some thing. I am sure that many of you out there have had to deal with similar issues.

[monkeyman#1]

It will come in time but I am sure but that does not help the customers that are my firsts for some thing. I am sure that many of you out there have had to deal with similar issues.

Just to let you know, all of us still from time to time come across our "firsts". That is the beauty of doing what we do, one never stops learning.

[zartangreen]

I use to have 2 lye where im from as a aprentice once I tell them they reply "can u score ?????" Be careful he might c this an Off with your Head Krc??? hell of a drug and Slander Killss

[zartangreen]

They tweek thE Internet

[timebuilder]

I use to have 2 lye where im from as a aprentice once I tell them they reply "can u score ?????" Be careful he might c this an Off with your Head Krc??? hell of a drug and Slander Killss

Can someone hit this with that star trek Universal Translator....?

[rich pickering]

Ned, shoot me an email if you want, I'll give you a number you can text if you have a quick question.

[ch4man]

Can someone hit this with that star trek Universal Translator....?

sorry my translators in for repairs, but i recognize the dialect from back in my drug induced days all liquored up

[Jkb79]

Is the problem furnace a down flow by chance?

[Rob_in_WV]

When you get 15 posts apply for pro status. The good info is over in the closed forums, you're just getting a small morsel of what these guys know. Get over there ASAP and they'll set you down to a feast if you're willing to listen.

[zartangreen]

That was 383 days on the wagon out the window ,, That chilled patron.
Sorry for killing thread should of been PUB

I think my concern was that by goggling peoples profile info U can find out who they are. You definitely are right ,, But people read this and it could be slander for your company . Don't give the prick any ammo. (BED R???)

[Ned355]

No this Armstrong is a up flow...

I have said nothing that I would not have issue with anyone in my world knowing. I am very careful what I say as I have gotten myself into trouble before for what I have posted on places. My daddy always taught me that never say anything about someone out loud that you would not them to hear. I just get very frustrated with not knowing things and have no one to turn to for help.

We have not heard anything regarding the furnace in this post as of yet. Not sure if that means anything as it would sometimes go a week or so before the furnace would quit. So we will see over the next several days what happens.

[syndicated]

Pull that pressure switch. The new Costa Rican switches that the Lennox family is using from honeywell are garbage. It's possible that the new one you install is garbage as well.
Since the furnace is under warranty you don't have much choice here.
Either the switch is leaking air, or it gets full of condensation.

We go through handfuls of those every week, it's more or less trial and error til you find one that works.

[timebuilder]

Get back on that wagon, my friend.

[DeHeatify]

after 3 multiple repeat calls these last couple of weeks, all of which I was 1 of multiple techs there, I had the pleasure of going back to them with my guru install forman. these were all repeat pressure switch problems and had either had the p/s changed or that and other parts too ( one had the t-stat,p/s,board and ventor)
all 3 checked out fine for everything....except when we checked the front to back slope. they all were slightly sloped backward. none were new installs.. all drained what I would call a decent amount of condensate out once resloped slightly forward.
gave me something to consider....maybe break out the torpedo level my friend.
I am new to this trade too and consider this forum to be second to none. good luck!

Sent from my BlackBerry Runtime for Android Apps using Tapatalk 2

[blitz]

check for actual resistance on the pressure switch, not just continuity. had issue with yorks about this. on some york furnace, high resistance roll out switch will throw pressure switch code. check actual resistance on each safeties. furnace may need drain tee with a trap on flue side. if it double scoop design like york it could actually throw water into pressure switch. make sure the line is not saggy, but loop on top of the p/s.

P/S don't go bad right away ( they could). if it's new install I highly doubt that venting pressure could be an issue. it could be bad venting also, or depending on how the wind blow at that time. installa tee on termination to block direct wind pressure to furnace.

you guys in sask has AC season??? I was there for christmas and it was -32 for 3 days!!!!

[Ned355]

Never even thought to put a level on the furnace and check to see it the furnace had a slight grade forward. I got the boss to contact the home owner on Friday to check the status of the furnace. Thus far there has been no further issues....touch wood. I would like to pour a rum but this furnace has really kicked the crap out of me. Every time I thought we were good, we we get the call. I do have to go out there on a unrelated matter and will put a level on the furnace and check the slope.

A/C season in Sask. is for the most part short. But speaking from my own experience without a/c I would be divorced. I get very cranky in the heat. Our house build brand new 3 years ago will reach 26 - 28 degrees C on just a warmish day...not a good scene.

Blitz...you were lucky....you can when it was warm. We were -44 C with the wind this morning. It is currently -41 C.... I need to move maybe.

[rich pickering]

It's currently -32c here. Saturday is supposed to be -3c. Anytime you want to move, let us know:yes:

[Dowdhvac]

I myself am relatively new in this field 3+ years. I am currently running all the service for my company. My boss always tells me if you can't figure something out and your in a bind to call tech support, those guys know the equipment inside and out and it's helped me out many times. Good luck keep up the hard work

[mrbean]

I myself am relatively new in this field 3+ years. I am currently running all the service for my company. My boss always tells me if you can't figure something out and your in a bind to call tech support, those guys know the equipment inside and out and it's helped me out many times. Good luck keep up the hard work

x2

[gasguy]

First of all I'd like to commend you for your attitude & work ethic. There's far too many people that would just do what their journeyman said and leave it at that. Your willingness to try & figgure out the 'why' and do things the right way will serve you well in this profession. It may seemlike you're swimming upstream right now (and you are!) but eventually it will get easier for you and you'll start looking forward to new challenges. It feels great when you can come in after others have given up and solve the problem. In a small community word gets around quickly that you are the 'go-to guy' and you can charge accordingly.

I hope you solved the problem by installing the trap. The vast majority of pressure switch issues are from improper drainage or venting. They're usually fairly easy to figure out, but once in a while you get a head scratcher. I had one a few years ago that drove me around the bend. Intermittant pressure switch faults on a new install. Venting and drains were fairly short and simple and we couldn't ever catch it in the act. We finally ended up pulling the secondary HX and discovered a piece of plastic had gotten in the coupling box between the primarys& secondarys during manufacturing and would move around inside intermittently blocking the drain. You just never know!

[Ned355]

Was sent out to replace the Cleveland Control pressure switch that was installed as we did not at the time have the proper Honeywell pressure switch. The original Honeywell switch had a 0.65 "Wc rating. Used a manometer to get the Cleveland as close as possible to that rating. So, when I put the new Honeywell switch on the furnace it does not run. Codes pressure switch just as it did before. Used the manometer to check the pressure and a multimeter to check the switch. It is working as its rated.... But will not run the furnace. Put the Cleveland switch back in and it runs as it should. So the Cleveland was left in place. Can I just ask what would be up with that...