Trane?,Carrier?,Goodman?

[furrcoat]

Hi,

I am replacing my 1985 furnance and a/c just as jeffr is...
I read everyone's comments about Carriers and Goodmans and you brought out some good points concerning the two but if I don't have to limit myself to either Carrier or Goodman is there a better choice?

thanks

[wally01]

It's hard to stop a Trane! My favorite brand. Virtually no warrenty callbacks. No Problems other than a couple of little isolated glitchy things that weren't anything more than isolated incidents. But then again I have high standards on my installs and that makes a difference. A crappy install or poor system design will kill any peice of equipment. I have put in a few Goodmans, a few Bryants, and a few Arcoairs and haven't had any problems with those either. So the morel of the story is.....................
Have me put your equipment in :) :)



JK. But do find a very fussy company to put it in. Don't buy based on price.

Wally

[johnnyde]

I like the higher end line of Carrier. The company that I work for is a Trane and Carrier dealer. we also install Amana, Goodman and some Lennox. We install roughly 8000 systems a year and a large percentage of those are Trane. Having said that, I see all the problems with all brands. I see more compressor problems with Trane then any other brand. 85 percent of the systems we install are heat pumps also. The biggest difference of the two is noise. The goodman is going to be alot louder then the carrier. If it was me and I had to decide on which system to put in my own home, I would go with the Carrier. If price is an issue then I would go with one of Carriers other lines, such as Comfortmaker, Arcoaire or Temp Star. good luck.!

[zzyzzx]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/images/home-garden/heating-cooling-air/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/0502fur001.gif

[davefr]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/images/home-garden/heating-cooling-air/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/0502fur001.gif



Interesting graph but how do they seperate out repairs resulting from poor installation procedures?

Also what exact components are they comparing? Or are they trying to evaluate the entire companies product lineup?

Is this based on recent products or a sampling of all installed units?

I would venture to guess that the std. error deviation from this data is greater then the rating spread among manufacturers. In other words all but Goodman are withing 5% of each other so I'd conclude that the differences are meaningless.

[coolwhip]

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. That graph is a bunch of phooey.

[dash]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/images/home-garden/heating-cooling-air/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/0502fur001.gif

When posting this questionable survey ,please include the fine print that notes that differences of less then 5 points are meaningless,or something to that effect.When you apply the fine print of 5 points,it makes most of it useless by their own admission.

[mayguy]

As some of the guys pointed out, INSTALL is what is important for a equipment to last, and do what it's suppose to do.

Any brand are good if they are put in good. Poor install won't make it last.

[Mr Bill]

And how does AS and Trane have different results? And Rheem and RUUD have different results also? this chart is full of crap and probably designed by a AS rep. :D

[BobbyBJr]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/images/home-garden/heating-cooling-air/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/0502fur001.gif

Cute graph, but those in the industry know that some of the brands listed are virtually identical to others listed on the graph and wonder why there is any difference between the two at all. It's the installation. I'd feel comfortable with any brand listed on that graph properly installed in my own home. To prove my point, I have a Goodman heatpump installed in 1991 and a gas furnace and a/c installed in 1992. My company sells mostly Trane, but for my own home I'll admit I was shopping price alone at that time. I did have to replace the indoor coil in the heatpump this past summer, and a relay a few summers back on the air handler, but nothing has been done other than that to either system. When the time comes to replace them, I think I am going to look at the Carrier Infinity. Hopefully, money won't be the sole determining factor next time around.

Bobby

[2hot2coolme]

I love Planters peanuts.

[allstar08]

read the article! great sales tool. I have found that the cheaper the unit and the easier it is to get, the lesser contractors tend to like. A contractor that has to maintain dealer status, will give you a better install. Just like a Kia dealership is not as good as a Benz dealership.

[hoshiscotsmanito]

Higher price units have heavier cabnitry. Look at the major components inside and you will see alot of the same manufactors. American Standard and Trane in my opinion are the most difficult to perform routine maint. on. The coils. although very efficient when new, are a bear to clean. I have more service calls on Train and A S than all others combined.

[sadlier]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/images/home-garden/heating-cooling-air/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/0502fur001.gifThe chart is from Consumer Reports. It is based on survey of homeowners and it is the homeowners that rated their own equipment based on how often they needed to be serviced. The age of the equipment was also taken into consideration. Thus the chart you see is based on long-term statistics, not for just one model year of equipment.

[bananas]

Most units come with a good warranty on the compressor and heat exchanger these days. Hire a recommended contractor who will install it right.

[kansascity]

I offer Trane, Carrier, Lennox, Amana and Goodman, I sell TRANE to most of my customers as I know I'm giving the clients the best value. When my sister needed a system, I sold her a TRANE, same for my brother and next door neighbor. Those systems I have to live with for a long time so I wanted to be sure that they would be the best.

In the end it comes down to the Install, I always say the worst equipment with the best installation is better then the best equipment with the worst installation. So whatever brand you pick, be sure and pick a good contractor, even if you have to pay a little bit more, it will pay you back in years of good service.

[Mr Bill]

Heres the "Real" Chart from A/C Contractors and not consumer Reports. :D

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/NewChart.jpg

[allstar08]

so true. install is the key. that being said, the best euipment is sold the best dealers. Any guy with a contractor liscence can buy goodman, heil, kelvinator etc. The best brands require some factory training and are alot more descerning when selling gear. therefore there is a reason goodman is at the bottom, the installers that are putting them in are less qualified then say a trane or carrier dealer.

[soleowner]

It's importmant to note that United Technologies who owns and manufacturers Carrier and Bryant are number in HVAC sales in the World. In the United States they command 34% of the market share. Whereas Amercian Standard/Trane has a 15%+/- percentage of the market.

The Consumer Reports chart does not factor in the ratio of the 13,000+ home owners they contacted during the survey who owns Carrier or Bryant. It stands to reason that if you have more units in the field then you might have more compliants.

In my experience, Trane/American Standard does not extend quality Dealer Support and here in Southern California, their parts inventory is too low. I agree with other Trane comments like on their residential condensers are hard to maintain.

Goodman/Amana units are not made to last. I've been to the factory in Houston and it is very low brow.

Finally, I would again agree with other posts that choose the installing contractor and not the brand. The largest variable (X Factor) in the system performance and your comfort is the installing contractor.

Verify the installers qualifications. Having a license is not enough. Does the installers (actual personnel who will be on site) have industry accredited certifications i.e. N.A.T.E, I.C.E etc.

It's my humble opinion that Carrier/Bryant and Trane dealers tend to be "professional" than Goodman dealers.

Remember, your comfort is completely dependent on the performance of the system. Make sure to have a Heat Load calculation completed, that the air flow is measured at the end of the project, that the refrigerant chemical is measured.

Good Luck!

[deq1269]

Most people are of course gonna answer this question based on their own experience and that experience varies based on alot of things such as part of the country they live, companies they worked for, etc. My preferences are Lennox and Trane (I worked for a lennox dealer for a long time so I worked on alot of Lennox units). Except for the gas pack that Lennox makes all their equipment just seems better quality and seems to last longer. Trane is good stuff but only one place in town to get parts and they dont stock their shelves too well. I wouldnt have anything to do with Carrier products (especially their heat pumps). Everything else to me is about the same. Regardless of the brand it does all come down to the install.

[RoBoTeq]

It's importmant to note that United Technologies who owns and manufacturers Carrier and Bryant are number in HVAC sales in the World. In the United States they command 34% of the market share. Whereas Amercian Standard/Trane has a 15%+/- percentage of the market.

The Consumer Reports chart does not factor in the ratio of the 13,000+ home owners they contacted during the survey who owns Carrier or Bryant. It stands to reason that if you have more units in the field then you might have more compliants.

In my experience, Trane/American Standard does not extend quality Dealer Support and here in Southern California, their parts inventory is too low. I agree with other Trane comments like on their residential condensers are hard to maintain.

Goodman/Amana units are not made to last. I've been to the factory in Houston and it is very low brow.

Finally, I would again agree with other posts that choose the installing contractor and not the brand. The largest variable (X Factor) in the system performance and your comfort is the installing contractor.

Verify the installers qualifications. Having a license is not enough. Does the installers (actual personnel who will be on site) have industry accredited certifications i.e. N.A.T.E, I.C.E etc.

It's my humble opinion that Carrier/Bryant and Trane dealers tend to be "professional" than Goodman dealers.

Remember, your comfort is completely dependent on the performance of the system. Make sure to have a Heat Load calculation completed, that the air flow is measured at the end of the project, that the refrigerant chemical is measured.

Good Luck!

Carrier and its affiliates do not have 34% of the residential market.

If you have been to the Goodman factory in Houston in the past several years and think Goodman is low brow, then you don't know much about manufacturing. At least Goodman doesn't make claims of model efficiencies that only one size actually achieves that efficiency.

So, all of the contractors that install both Carrier an Goodman or Trane and Goodman, of which there are thousands; are they good installers or bad installers? Your opinion on that subject lacks credence and insinuates that a helluva lot of good installers that install Goodman are not professional.

Please read your few posts and understand that you are really coming off like a blue oval elitist. If you were that much better, you wouldn't need to put down others.

[aireborne]

Trane is over-rated!!!!!!!!! Just like a gallon of unleaded regular gas:mad: .

Goodman is a joke like the price of diesel!!!!!:confused: Grandaire:cool: way more sensible than goodman. Carrier is losing the only good thing they had their engineers!!:eek: Give me a Tappan:D

[RoBoTeq]

Trane is over-rated!!!!!!!!! Just like a gallon of unleaded regular gas:mad: .

Goodman is a joke like the price of diesel!!!!!:confused: Grandaire:cool: way more sensible than goodman. Carrier is losing the only good thing they had their engineers!!:eek: Give me a Tappan:D

Yea, I think maybe you do need a tapping...like a labotomy.

So, just what are your credentials for making dumb comments about HVAC equipment?

[riderman]

so true. install is the key. that being said, the best euipment is sold the best dealers. Any guy with a contractor liscence can buy goodman, heil, kelvinator etc. The best brands require some factory training and are alot more descerning when selling gear. therefore there is a reason goodman is at the bottom, the installers that are putting them in are less qualified then say a trane or carrier dealer.


I disagree, somewhat, with this statement. Robo and others are hacks? If you have been here for a while and read some posts, you will note even most of the "other brand" pro's here also install Goodman.

Robo and others will hate this statement, but it's true. "Janijunk" was the buzzword for us HO types a few years ago. The brown ones.........ya know which ones. I and several neighbors have goodmans installed. NO complaints. It must be due to the excellent installation?

[tonyv]

As a homeowner, I feel compelled to reply. When I purchased my home ten years ago, it needed a new furnace. I had a Carrier furnace installed (92% efficiency) based on the name -- figured it had to be good if it was a Carrier. WRONG! The furnace failed AT LEAST twice a year. In the fourth and fifth years, it failed no less than 5 times during the heating season. A fan motor here, a control board there, and I can't begin to tell you how many ignitors were installed. After 5 years I gave up, installed an Amana 96% variable speed furnace (model GUVA) and I have not had ONE, not ONE problem in 5 years.

Say what you will about Goodman or Amana, but they have served me MUCH better than anything made by Carrier.

Tony

[krazykeith]

It's nice to see some comparisons, but nobody is ever going to win at this. Instead of asking about BRAND A vs. BRAND B, you should ask about MODEL A vs. MODEL B or better yet, QUOTE A vs. QUOTE B.

It's a Ford/Chevy/Dodge debate. It's more personal than statistical. In both those graphs, the difference from best to worst is around 5%, which to me isn't enough to qualify a decision.

In a complex system there are so many variables that could cause a device to malfunction that without a more detailed inspection of each reported problem, you will never know whether the problem was due to poor design, a manufacturing defect, installer error or even user error. Also, there is no way a single person can have an overview of the entire industry; even the problems you see are such a small sample compared to the overall units in operation that you can't really judge. That is what makes the forum good. If everyone says they've seen a particular problem with a certain model, it's likely that there is some defect. You can't just say "your brand here" is the best or the worst, since most all of them sell low-end and high-end equipment. One of the posters here has this in his signature which I believe is accurate for just about anything you care to apply it to:


"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

John Ruskin

[aircooled53]

I have serviced them all , and if they aren't installed properly it doesn't matter which brand.

I sold American Standard/Trane for 12+ years and designed systems for homes . They are durable and warranty is very good.

I now sell Carrier Infinity and to me the controller and compressor set-up in the higher S.E.E.R. units is a little better than Trane.

So, my vote would be to purchase a Carrier Infinity,so when can we expect to start the installation for you and will it be cash/check or 12 months account?

[HeatKing]

Rheem is the best quality. It has the ONLY one piece stainless steel heat exchanger and is rated high by Consumer Reports

[sadlier]

[Rheem] has the ONLY one piece stainless steel heat exchanger...Huh? Rheem heat exchangers are 3 part (or 4 part on condensing models) and contain both stainless steel and aluminized steel. What about Amana's one-piece stainless steel? Did they change it from last year?

I agree with the quality of Rheem.

[soleowner]

"Carrier and its affiliates do not have 34% of the residential market."

I may have the percentage number wrong but the last pie chart red showed;
1. Carrier
2. Goodman
3 and 5. Trane
4. Lennox
6. ICP
7. Nordyne

The combined sales for all brands including ICP made United Technologies number one.

"If you have been to the Goodman factory in Houston in the past several years and think Goodman is low brow, then you don't know much about manufacturing."

This statement is true. I am not an expert in manufacturing. So when I speak outside of the expertise I will use my own personal experience. I have visited no less than five HVAC manufacturing plants by four makers and Goodman in Houston is the least automated, dirtiest, and seemingly antiquated of the five.


"At least Goodman doesn't make claims of model efficiencies that only one size actually achieves that efficiency."

Again, you are right. You can also argue that the SEER v. EER rating does an injustice to the consumer. But without getting into any details her, all manufacturers play with words and phrases. All is fair in the market game.


"So, all of the contractors that install both Carrier an Goodman or Trane and Goodman, of which there are thousands; are they good installers or bad installers? Your opinion on that subject lacks credence and insinuates that a helluva lot of good installers that install Goodman are not professional."

Again, I am not an expert in the purchasing habits of good or bad contractors. I've only worked HVAC in California, Arizona, Nevada, Kentucky, and Montana, and I haven't see it all. But my experience and sense of things tells me that the premise of Harold Goodman to 'sell the highest quality, at the lowest price' is in conflict. The highest quality based off what benchmark?

I've sold Goodman/Amana between 1999-2005. I have a very good understanding of the product, technical support, management, staff, warranty etc. and it seems that Goodman is in constant flux and really hasn't matured in their company culture and product.

"Please read your few posts and understand that you are really coming off like a blue oval elitist. If you were that much better, you wouldn't need to put down others."

I sincerely apologize to you. It was not my intention to put anyone down. And if you felt that I was to harsh or misrepresenting technical or industry information, please email me off line.

Elitist? I'll leave that one alone.