Humidifiers

[skinnyd]

Hello All

Before I call my contractor out and talk to him about a humidifier I thought I would ask here.

I know when the condo was built they panned the joists for the returns. I think they might have on a few of the supplys also (not 100%sure). Just wondering if this will cause a problem with mold or anything with installing the humidifier.

I tried a large (said up to 1700 sq ft) table top model last year, it was a hassle to keep clean and didnt seem to have much effect. The humidity currently in the house acording to the radio shack indoor outdoor thermometer is 33%.I was considering trying a lager one this year but the wife would rather have one put on the furnace than have to look at a larger humifidifier in the middle of the room.

Thanks for all the advice and comments.
Ken

[amd]

Before you spend (possibly) hundreds of dollars on a humidifier, draft proof/air seal as much as possible. That will reduce your heating bill and increase the indoor relative humidity. (You may not even need one after doing so)

Usually "panned" joists are only used for the return plenum, so it's not much of an issue. Only a fraction of the air (moving through the system) actually goes through the humidifier (mixed/diluted), so I doubt that it will pose a problem.

Do not consider a drum or spray humidifier, as they cause more problems then they solve. (flowthrough is the best if you have a floor drain)

[coolwhip]

http://www.ewccontrols.com/autoflo.htm

Autoflo S2000

This is the only humidifier you will ever need. Worth every penny too!
If you move, patch the duct and take it with you. No drain required with this either.

Everything else is second place.

[hvaclover]

Shame on you, Coolwhip.

Off branding like that.

Skuttle 2000 is the better way to go.

They invented the first in home humidifier and the 2000 is a drain type humidifier thatonly require a media pad change onec a year.

Auto Flo is a distant third.

Sorry Coolwhip, just telling the truth.

[coolwhip]

That Skuttle is junk compared to the autoflo steam humidifier.

You seriously think that a bypass humidifier is better? Better quit smokin them funny cigerettes.

The only thing better would be an ultrasonic, but you need a reverse osmosis machine for that.

[coolwhip]

If you decide to go with a bypass type, there are all kinds like General, Aprilaire, Skuttle, etc. etc. They all seem about the same to me.

[bokenrosie]

Okay, looks like we have a religous battle on Humidifiers. I am looking at 25% humidity on my little Radio Shack thermometer. My skin and scalp itch, the kids lips are chapped. We need a humidifier.

Which one? The Ultrazone sure sounds nice. I like the idea of Auto Flush and the fact that it does not call for heat if it does not need it. What about the Skuttle?

Will it work with my Ruud/Rheem Achiever 90? That's another question.

Thanks.

[coolwhip]

Ultrazone???

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by coolwhip
http://www.ewccontrols.com/autoflo.htm

Autoflo S2000

This is the only humidifier you will ever need. Worth every penny too!
If you move, patch the duct and take it with you. No drain required with this either.

Everything else is second place.

I totally agree that the Autoflow steam humidifiers are the best, but I wanted to correct a small bit of misinformation here.
While it is true that water does not drain out of it continuously when it runs, it does require a drain for the self flush cycle.

[bokenrosie]

I followed an earlier thread that listed the Autoflo at http://www.ewccontrols.com/autoflo.htm

Autoflo S2000

It's sold by EWCControls.com as a steam humidifier. I don't know what they cost but they sound pretty good.

Any real world experience here?

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by bokenrosie
Okay, looks like we have a religous battle on Humidifiers.
Thanks.

Humidifier Jihad?

Cool by me.
But Coolwhip has to wear the towel on his head and carry an AK47:D

[bokenrosie]

When it comes down to it there seems to be disagreement on so many aspects of the HVAC market today.


Originally posted by hvaclover

Originally posted by bokenrosie
Okay, looks like we have a religous battle on Humidifiers.
Thanks.

Humidifier Jihad?

Cool by me.
But Coolwhip has to wear the towel on his head and carry an AK47:D

I have had 3 different suggestions on what to put in a 3600sqft center hall colonial house that is currently served by a single zone 90+ system.

It has up to 10 degree +/- temps in the house. Currently we are heavily considering the Ruud Achiever 90 Plus Modulating Gas Furnace with Contour Comfort Control because:
- like the idea of multiple thermostats (remote sensors) sensing multiple locations (no more hotspots?)
- like the idea of "incredibly quiet"
- like the idea of staying single zone so we can keep humidfier (attic installs will not allow humidifier in Northeast)

The Trane salesguy says his two-stage is just as good and that the Ruud system will have problems down the road.

I just want a comfortable house, that's all.

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by coolwhip
That Skuttle is junk compared to the autoflo steam humidifier.

You seriously think that a bypass humidifier is better? Better quit smokin them funny cigerettes.

The only thing better would be an ultrasonic, but you need a reverse osmosis machine for that.

C'mon Coolwhip, steam is a PITA and you know it. Even w/self flush that thing is higher maintenance than a stripper from Trump's.

Look at the electrical consumption, look at the element replacement costs, look at the numerous controls and safeties that can go awry.

Steam is a good humidifier media, I agree. I just don't think anybody has got it right yet.

Oh, And did I mention the amp draw on one of those puppies?

You aint just plugging in a toaster to the existing furnace circuit y'know.
I do believe in some instances you have to run a a dedicated power supply.

Naw, give me and my custoers simplicity. Skuttle is best.

[coolwhip]

I have several customers with them. Every year I clean them out and test them and every year they do a great job. I have not had to replace anything.
I also have 2 larger models at a electronics repair shop. Same thing, if you service them once a year, no issues. They do require 115vac, but thats no big deal.

They are not cheap, but nothing good is.

[hvaclover]

That's what good about Skuttle, simple and effective.

Guess it's all what you make work the best for your own customer base.

[bokenrosie]

So service is key...


Originally posted by hvaclover
That's what good about Skuttle, simple and effective.

Guess it's all what you make work the best for your own customer base.

If I read correctly CoolWhip is saying that the steam humidifier will work fine (how many years has your longest install been without replacement of components?) so long as there is annual cleaning.

I spoke to a salesman at ewccontrols who says that a $20 anode must be replaced yearly (can be done by HO) and that's all the system needs.

Mark Beiser agrees they are excellent Humidifiers and cautions that a drain is needed... good, there is one there.

Hvaclover says Skuttle 2000 is the one and only way to solve the problem. CoolWhip implies that AprilAire and the other bypass types are all the same and will work fine.

So there is no concensus on how to humidify. What about how to heat/cool? How do you feel about Ruud/Rheem?

thanks, this is so confusing.

[coolwhip]

The question is, whats in the budget? If you want excellent humidification, go with the autoflo. If you want something thats ok, go with a bypass.
My customers love the autoflo and will never own a bypass now that they have been spoiled.

Decide how much money you want to spend and your decision will be made.

[bokenrosie]

Originally posted by coolwhip
The question is, whats in the budget?

Decide how much money you want to spend and your decision will be made.



It looks like the Autoflo is maybe twice as much as the bypass but we are not talking about a huge amount of money here.

How do you define spoiled? If I am speaking of a modulating furnace that is going to be on longer anyway would the bypass type provide enough humidification?

I don't want to spend more money to get more headaches.

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by coolwhip
The question is, whats in the budget? If you want excellent humidification, go with the autoflo. If you want something thats ok, go with a bypass.
My customers love the autoflo and will never own a bypass now that they have been spoiled.

Decide how much money you want to spend and your decision will be made.



Hey Coolwhip, that great they work so well for you.

Skuttle offers a better value as the only annual replacement cost is a media pad, which is only about a quarter the cost of the anode mentioned.

I don't know if I'd encourage our customers to try to install a part on their own. That's why they call us to do the service every year.

Auto Flo (and pleas don't take this personal Coolwhip, I am just citing from long time experience) has always been bringing up the rear in the humidity dept.

The mod #200 P drum was a complete disaster with scaling problems crummy floats and motor stems that broke off way too frequently.

The drain type humidifier they have, mod# 250, is rated at
fifteen gallons per day and does 2400sq ft according to a popular catalog. Local wholesaler says they're only good up to 1800sq ft. The pads are over priced in comparison to others.

Auto Flo just has an under engineered line and the specs seem to lose a lot in the translation, if I may paraphrase.

I can't say that I am too impressed when they come out with a product that is a complete reversal of they're passive product line. Now you have a product that is Over engineered with a lot of things to go wrong. AutoFlo has had a steam humidifier on the market for years, and I replaced everyone I came across 'caus the customers were unhappy with the high maintenance costs or out right breakdowns, even more did not like the increase to their utility bills.

But everybody is going to sell what works for them, and I don't begurge anyone his coice in equipment.

Thanks for the reply.

Regards,

Clover Actual


[Edited by hvaclover on 12-21-2006 at 04:05 PM]

[coolwhip]

Whatever...just get what you want to and be happy with it.

[hvaclover]

I am happy w/Skuttle:D
But if a customer wants steam, I'll refer him to you.
Fair enough?

[bokenrosie]

Originally posted by hvaclover
I am happy w/Skuttle:D

Now we can all get along.

Any strong opinions on the Carrier Vs. Ruud/Rheem debate?

I need to pick one.

[mark beiser]

Steam humidifiers are the only type that is effective in my market, and Autoflow(EWC) makes the best steam humidifiers, so thats the product I use the rare times I sell a humidifier.

If I was in an area where peoples heat ran enough for the humidifier to do its job, I might use something else.

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by bokenrosie

Originally posted by hvaclover
I am happy w/Skuttle:D

Now we can all get along.

Any strong opinions on the Carrier Vs. Ruud/Rheem debate?

I need to pick one.
Heh,

Look up all their skirts and they all look like sisters.

Ain't no diff. They are all equal break down offenders.

What's more important than a company emblom is proper sizing and a join up to a godd flowing duct system that allows the home to warm w/o over haeting furnace and to cool the home w/o freezing the a/c coil.

Peace

Clover#2

[wyounger]

Bypass humidifiers are often constrained by the running time of the furnace, since they are basically only effective when hot air is flowing through the ducts. Modulating furnaces run at low fire rates to avoid cycling on and off, so a bypass should work better with a modulating furnace than just about anywhere else.

If you want really serious humidification (over 40%) you will probably only achieve that with a steam humidifier. But you will pay a pretty penny for all the electricity that will take (functionally, it's equivalent to boiling off gallons of water a day on an electric stove). A bypass unit can't get you quite as humid, but it'll generally get to 35-38%, and that seems to be enough to get past the discomfort issues. They are cheaper up front, but just as importantly, they use a trivial amount of electricity in comparison to a steamer. Unless you're in an area where electricity is cheap but water is expensive (bypass humidifiers do waste more water), steam is a much more expensive way to go overall.

[krazykeith]

SkinnyD, I have an Aprilaire 560 (bypass type) that I installed myself 5 years ago. It is currently controlled by a Carrier Thermidistat, and it tells me that the relative humidity is 44%. I think anyone who has to heat a lot in the winter should have some type of humidifier, and mine works fine with both my heat pump and my gas furnace. I live in MN, so we do generally have plenty of furnace run time, but it's been mild this year and it still works for me.

[skinnyd]

Thanks for all the comments.
I think when the furnace and A/C were replaced two years ago the contractor left an Aprilaire ad. I will have to see what the local contractors are used to working with. I am sure I will have more questions.

Thanks again to all.

[browntigerus]

I don't know if there will be a point for any steamers in the future if one can install powered and Honeywell IAQ and tell it to run humidifier and a fan until humidity setpoint reached.

[bokenrosie]

At the moment I am sold on the modulating furnace so the bypass humidifier seems like it should be the right fit for me. I remember there was an automatic version that took outside air into account. Does anyone have a favorite on that aspect? My experience is that nobody actually runs down to the humidistat to change it so one that does this automatically would be preferible.

[krazykeith]

Some of the aprilaire models come with an outdoor air temp sensor that will adjust indoor humidity automatically, but many of the higher-end thermistats also have an outdoor temp sensor and are able to control the humidifier too. That is how mine is set up now, and I like to have all the controls in one place. Before I got my new thermidistat I didn't have an outdoor temp sensor on mine and I often had condensation on my windows when it got colder outside. Now I don't.

[bokenrosie]

Do you know if the Contour Comfort from Ruud does humidity?

Thanks,

[jeffw]

I've had the Autoflo s2000 since 2001 and the only thing I've had to do is replace the sacrificial anode every year. It works well, and I like knowing I can keep the hosue at a comfortable humidity even when the furnace isn't running alot (like this winter in Boston, when it's been quite warm so far).

I do cringe at the the electric bill, but oh well...

[tbird355]

I have been following this thread and have a similar situation but not quite the same. I don't want to hijack the thread so I hope it appears similar enough to the original post to ask here rather than a new thread.

We have a 5600 sqft home in the Rockies in Colorado built 5 years ago. It has been well built with no drafts with a good air seal. The entire place has radiant heating in the floors. The contractor ran supply and return ducting and electrical for 2 separate air conditioning systems in case we want air conditioning. Water lines and drains were also run to the two locations where the a/c air handlers would be. What we really want is humidification because the humidity is around 12% all winter long and would like it to be more like 30-35%. We thought we would install the 2 separate split a/c systems using all the stubbed out ducts and electrical and also install humidifcation. It appears the cost of the 2 a/c systems will dwarf the cost of the humidification and so up front costs of the humidifiers will not be too important. Ongoing maintenance and cost will be more important.

Of course the humidifiers will NOT be running through a force hot air system. The air will be recirculated 70 degree air already heated by the radiant system. That may affect the humidifiers we chose. I don't know.

The new a/c and humifications systems will be control by a home automation (Crestron) system that currently runs the radiant heating in 12 zones and the snow melt systems. Powered dampers will be used in the ducts to control a/c zone by zone.

We will likely use our radiant heating maintenance contractor to install the new a/c and humdification system. Before I meet with them, I'd like some recommendations on humidifier makes and models for our situation. Reliability, lowest maintenance cost and efficiency are most important with upfront cost being secondary. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thx. Tom

[jeffw]

Of course the humidifiers will NOT be running through a force hot air system. The air will be recirculated 70 degree air already heated by the radiant system. That may affect the humidifiers we chose. I don't know.
Thx. Tom

I'm not a pro (just a consumer), but I'd be pretty sure that the only thing that will make humidity for you will be a steam humidifier.

The 2 most common steam humidifiers are made by Autoflo (EWC Controls) and Skuttle.

The Autoflo has nice status LEDs which could easily be integrated into your home automation system with the same sensors they use to sense power leds, etc....

http://www.ewccontrols.com/steam_humidifier.htm