Getting paid by billable hours

[bruce campbell]

What exactly is meant by getting paid by "billable hours"? Correct me if I'm wrong because I really don't know but from what I'm understanding it means you only get paid for the hours of labor that are on the customers bill.

What about drive time to the customers house or what about if you have to go to the supply house to pick something up or put gas in the company van.

Seems to me that you are setting yourself up to get the short end of the stick getting paid this way. It would be really easy for your boss to cheat you on hours. I rather get paid a little less per hour and get paid for the whole time I was at work than to get paid for billable hours. At least you would know what to expect on your check.

Is this normal? About what percentage of companies pay their employees this way? Also, did anybody ever feel like they were cheated by being paid like this?

[dhvac]

well it can work 2 ways as i see it you can make a normal wage and get paid only for the time that you are on a job if they bill time and materials

or if you are a flat rate company you would get paid for the time the book says it should take to do the job

this has been discussed here before and it is split right down the middle
i think if you get a flat rate puls allowences for supply shop times and long drives it can work well
the thing that would make it work is getting paid better for flat rate hours and being able to do more work then the actual time you put into your job

[bruce campbell]

That would definitely encourage you to hurry to get the job done but would that also encourage you to do sloppy work? As far as the book time, is that a conservative estimate that is easy to obtain? Also, what about the customers bill. Do they see the hours of labor that they are being charged. Seems like they wouldn't be too happy if they were getting charged 4 hours for something that only took 2.

[dec]

Well when I was first starting out as an apprentice, the shop I worked for was that way. It was a nightmare as an apprentice being everyone would drag you away from what you were working on to give them a hand. Now if you asked them to put your time on that project , say if it was 10-15 minutes , they would go balistic. It was crazy, your were getting screwed all the time.

Ok now the 22 gauge metal is out on the coil machine. Guess who has to load it ....... yep apprentices. So where does that time go ?????? Not under shop time, oh no that has to be cheated onto something else to be charged out.

Now if you were working on a large job it wasnt a problem but if the day was a lot of small sheetmetal fabrication things that didnt have a lot of room for adding time to ......you were screwed and couldnt bill it out.


Ya I know its a little differant then on service calls but it makes me whinse when someone talks being payed on billable hours. Its usally someone screwing you out of him having to pay for what are a lot of things that need to be done and are just a cost of doing business.

YOU NEED TO PUT GAS IN THAT VAN ??????? Better do it after work ...... Im too cheap to put it in my overhead cost. lol

[oil lp man]

Like someone else said, its against the law.
Call the labor board and ask.
If you eat 25% of your time thats a big paycut.
Then you're always looking to get even, as if thats possible.

[dhvac]

The auto industry has been doing this for years and it could work in our industry also

Granted it takes people who want to make it work
As an owner I am not looking to screw anyone (hard to believe I know)
When I worked for someone else I hated getting stupid jobs to fill a time card like sweep the shop floor or dusting sheet metal fittings

Now let’s use nice round numbers and not sure how much people get paid in their areas but let’s say a tech makes $20 an hour for every hour he is at work so he does 40 hours and makes $800 for the week

Now let’s take the same tech and put him on a good flat rate system lets say he makes $10 just to show up at a call and he makes $30 an hour for flat rate now he gets 45 min to troubleshoot which is $22.50
Now he changes a furnace blower motor which in my book takes 1.5 hrs so he will make another $45 now on this one call he has made $77.50 or a little more then 3.5 hours of what he made at $20 an hour

Now how many calls do you do in a week or even a day?

I don’t think that this would work with the real lazy or real slow techs I also don’t think it is fair if you are making the same wage as you was before this

But for someone who cares about their work and won’t take shortcuts this could be a great thing

You have the potential of making a lot more money
It also allows the company to not have to worry about making payroll when things are slow by having you sweep the shop because even if you only worked 3 days in a week you could have the potential of getting a 40 hr check

Now I know not al companies would be fair with it and it would take some time to get everything worked out so that no one was losing money
Now somewhere in these books it has a task that says it will take you 45 min to do this and no way anyone could ever do it in that time then it should be adjusted and yes the tech would lose out on one job but make up for it on 50 more
Also we all know there are some things that just don’t go right so yes the tech would lose on that also but like I said for every 1 that goes real bad you have 20 to 100 that go right

Also I only do resi work so I am not speculating anything on commercial or industrial because even though I feel that 45 minutes is enough to diagnose a resi unit (99% of the time) it may very well be too short to do anything in another line

[isitfixedyet]

that seem to differ, an that includes, customers, that experience , is not a valuable , commodity when it comes to paying the bill/and or /payroll, unless they can pay u the same or cheaper than another tech , that cant hang or a more experienced thec, that isnt as good!, but makes more?;
Example: Customer, "you didnt take an hour to repair that, but i will pay you anyways,,"
Tech: Thinking" wow, I didnt charge , enough there still complaining?, hmmm do, i have to explain, that if i wasnt experienced they would be paying more? and the money i saved them, so Far? lol

Example#2.
Contractor/employer, " I know it didnt take you that long to change a blower motor, it should ve taken u ten minutes, thats if ur good, lol
Tech: thinking" it did, and thats why ur paying an hour, and a half drive time minimum, especiall , since the time allowed to change one is usually more!

But we wont go into explaining that, and where it comes from, since they already know! or dont think we know, and wouldnt want to hear it anyways!
although ,,,,Not, All contractors are like a chinese restaurant, and have a word of commitment, honesty and integrity, and some ethics in their business practices!
its usually the cons that con themselves, and drive them out of the business, relating to just that
others are just pro's getting better with age everyday, leaving behind, a skilled few,,
the ones that listen? imagine that attitude, it could be catching?

[Edited by isitfixedyet on 12-07-2006 at 06:35 PM]

[oil lp man]

Heres a good example of what would happen with changing a blower motor on flat rate:
Flat rate pays you 1.5 hours. What if you don't have the correct motor on your van and the supply house is 45 minutes away?
You pull the blower motor and discover the blower wheel is loaded with lint because the furnace ran without a filter for years.
Who in their right mind would take the time to clean it right?
Unless there is a seperate charge for cleaning the blower wheel.
If its packed with lint it will be 1 hour of misery(worth 2 hours of straight pay).:D

[dhvac]

see thats where you have to work things out but my book does have a 1/2 hr to clean

i didnt look but i think its 1/2 hr or 45 min to change with motor

also if the motor isnt on the truck and it should be well then someone needs to take a hit for it
if its the companies job to stock it then you should get paid that extra time if its your job then next time you will make sure you have the parts you should have

also if its a non stock motor its a 2.5 hr flat rate charge
now this is just my books dont know how the others work

[isitfixedyet]

i cant pay, it should ve wouldve couldve, but i cant pay u that!
thas not an error on my part, but if i cant stock a part , u can be a parts chaser, then if the customer gets mad, it shouldve only taken u so long to fix it right, lol
we all know how it works!
and u for got its 45 minutes to get there, and 1/5 to diagnose, and 45 minutes to pick it up, and 15-30 minutes waiting to get the motor at the parts house, and 45 back, and 1/3 to put it on
and u want it for what it shouldve taken,
1.5
how many of these hits before a guy says ok, anything else?
or is gone?
whats funny or gets me about this, is this mostly prevelant in Residential companies, cause they beat up guys with no experience, 1-3 yrs,and they get used to talking to these, guys nothing is there fault anymore, and they are always right , and the red flags are they promise the customer, without asking the tech anything, then thats on time and diagnosing the part and cost over the phone, then they set the mind set for the tech , before he gets there and piss off the customer,,,

Whats even , more funny, is these guys here that are contractors and it hurts them, they start sniveling here , because , they do it themselves, and they say u talk too much, letting the others know the heads up!
so if the truth hurts , how can it set u free?
lets see, or count the ways,
ONE,
Self improvement!
Better company!
Techs wanna stay!
Customers are happy!
Boss is Happy? maybe if hes not used to have something to complain about, or so used to cheating techs , he cant find a better way to deal with them, other, than the way he does!
just my fifty bucks worth,
whats ur take on this Carnie?
how does that make u feel?

[Edited by isitfixedyet on 12-08-2006 at 01:34 AM]

[Carnak]

My take on billable hours or your rants?

My take on your rants is you have decided to start naming me now in a couple threads to get my attention. The last person you started naming in your posts to draw into a big fight has quit arguing with you and you need a new opponent.





[Edited by Carnak on 12-08-2006 at 06:47 AM]

[dhvac]

Originally posted by isitfixedyet


just my fifty bucks worth,

how does that make u feel?

[Edited by isitfixedyet on 12-08-2006 at 01:34 AM]


like we was over charged :D

[neophytes serendipity]

I have changed a couple of blower motors...

30 to 45 minutes to get the job done????

To pull off all the wires that go to the control board, all the thermostat wires, all the accessory wires (like A/C contactor, humidifier, EAC)...

Slide the housing out, just slide the squirrel cage off (yeah, right), take the motor out, remount the motor, slide the now bent and used squirrel cage onto the new motor (should have a new one), slide the housing back in, reinstall the motor wiring harness (probably have to feed it through a grommet and install new crimp connectors on the wires to plug into the board), mount the new capacitor....

Now put all the wires and connectors back on the control board....

Check rotation...

<smack timeclock>

*DONE*

/<smack timeclock>

OOPS- forgot about putting dropcloths on the customers flooring, dragging the tools down (up) to the unit, answering 1000 questions about "Why do you think it broke?", dragging all the used stuff out, cleaning up the job, cleaning up your tools, listening to 1000 comments about "Why does it cost so damn much?"

30 to 45 minutes my ass. Hour and a half my ass, too.

[dhvac]

is it fixed yet
maybe the problem is that some guys (not all cause i know there are lots of good techs out there) want to take advantage of everything they can
some techs are lazy and slow and would not make any money with this
some techs think they should be paid even though they dont work or even when they screw everything up they should keep their jobs and keep getting paid more money to do bad work

now the helper i have gets paid by the job and he has the choice to get paid by the hour or the job but he makes more money by the job and he likes that
he has lost on a job or 2 in the past few years but he is ok with that because he makes up for it on the next one

now like i said i dont have it all figured out yet but what i do know is that when i do, a good tech will love it and the bad ones wont want to stay (dont want them anyway)
i will be happy cause the costs will be fixed
it will be a win win situation

i will make sure that whoever is on it will make more money if they work, and the better their work the more they will make

i can also say that while i am hope to get to this point eventually i wont push it on anyone but i think the problem with performance based pay in any field is people who dont want to work and dont want to improve themselves

[dash]

If you are paid by the billable hour or some type of piece rate,you are still to be paid overtime ,for over 40hrs in a work week.Lots of companies forget to pay it,see the Federal wage and hour people and you'll get paid.

[dhvac]

neophytes serendipity

With all due respect if you can not change the majority of blower motors on residential equipment in a 2hr and 15 min call (including diagnostic time) then you are not the kind of tech I would want working for me anyway


Edit:
99.99% of all furnaces we work on are in a basement with plenty of access

[dhvac]

also the 30 minutes was to change the blower wheel while the motor was being replaced so if you have motor and wheel then you are at 2 hrs + 45 min for diagnosis so again if you cant do this job in 2 hrs and 45 min then why would anyone want you to work for them ?

and remember this is assuming that these are stock parts that should be on the truck

[neophytes serendipity]

Sure, I could change most of them in 2.25 hours (including diagnostic), especially if there is plenty of access.

Does your 2.25 hours include travel to the job? That would suck if the 30 minute drive ate into that 2.25 hour total.

[isitfixedyet]

I totally agree that dash, and neophytes serendipity!
can see through, the true meaning of quality service!
Its becoming a lost art, in itself!
and no it doesnt have to be spared at the techs expense or contractors or homowners/business owner
alot of people assume the worst, automatically its a tech's fault for not being responsible for stocking the van, when the owner , wont do it, after given a list, several times, then its always something or another,,,
after so long, theres got to be some accountability, u'd think?
dhvac would u expect or justify that situation?
how about if someone told u something that is just not true, about another person, and just wants to be bitter and start trouble for another would you go around and help badger somone?
especially when u can see for yourself?
the time is there, and u gotta pay for it,,either way just like u charge the customer!
simple as that!
its got to be a win win situation, most the time! take or give a few back and forth, but not beat somone up over everything, and then expect them too! and not give anything back?
c-mon be for real!

[isitfixedyet]

Let say , i replace a blower motor in 1. hr with diagnostic time and travel time, and leave the callu log it in , and have me go to the nest call, i bill th custome 1,5
what u going to do, whine and say ur not going to pay me because, u knew i was nt there that long and it didnt take me that long?
yet u billed the customer, for three hrs total time?
dont side step it answer it, without forcing anything but ur bill on the customer,and ur pay on the tech, so to speak, like u said in ur post!

and this is assuming u wont stock your van!
i dont mind eating a small company's calls up in a hurry, i just dont like to work myself out of a job, while the boss takes all the calls for himself, and his pet? and cant pay u nothing on payday, for not being lazy, and for outdoing him and yourself! and doing all his call backs and lousy work, that I have to go back and fix it right, since the customers history reflects and the problems have been ongoing, and never fixed right!
i could give examples , but i'd be here all day, thats how frequent this was!

[Edited by isitfixedyet on 12-08-2006 at 03:05 PM]

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by dhvac
also the 30 minutes was to change the blower wheel while the motor was being replaced so if you have motor and wheel then you are at 2 hrs + 45 min for diagnosis so again if you cant do this job in 2 hrs and 45 min then why would anyone want you to work for them ?

and remember this is assuming that these are stock parts that should be on the truck

I had one that took longer than that to get the wheel off. Even after peeling the blades from the center section of the wheel, the darn thing still wouldn't fit through the side of the housing. Someone butched it in last time, and there was no way I got that wheel off in 30 minutes.

I got it off with brute force. Even if I had a Sawzall at the time, there was no way to use it to cut the shaft. Maybe I could have cut the center section down to the hub and peeled that off, too.

BTW, you have to get the wheel off to replace the motor, and it's probably going to get bent in the process anyways, so what's with the "extra" 30 minutes to replace the blower wheel? If the wheel is not replaced (old one reused), is the 30 minutes taken away?

[isitfixedyet]

do not deviate,,
theyre there for a reason!?!
DHVAC
its apparent that you disagree with them, or stocking your van, and cant figure out why somone would not let somone go thats lazy, and sees their calls after eachone and turns in his paper work daily?
we all know it doesnt take more than two weeks to see it! if somone cant make the cut, would u let him go on , working for you?
of course if he fixed your call backs, and replaced parts you didnt want to go back on and replace, and further diagnosed the underlying problems , not just the symptoms, and then u'd go to the customer and make things worse, and try to salvage ur reputation, rather than letting the tech finish, and save the customers equipment, than just ur reputation or personal ego?
problems, cause and affect, fixing the problem or just the symptom?
no if this is lazy let me know, and if u been listening to another talk without knowing , let me know, and i can try to set some of this straight, but its getting old now! fcol
now im not whining , but put urself in my shoes would u like somone doing this to u? it gets alot worse, but i cant go into all the details, so i wont!
just ask me if u dont know, and i'll tell, all about it, without forcing anything upon u,,
but then that way u'll know for sures, whos lying here!

[dhvac]

is it fixedyet
i have a feeling you are dragging something into this thay i have no idea what it is. obviously you feel that a boss is screwing you or did screw you. this is not what i am talking about
what i am talking about is being able to pay someone top wages , more then they can make at any other company in the area and not be stuck trying to find stupid work when its slow to keep his "hours up"

now as a small business ownere i do not have a tech yet i do all that and i do all the installs also i only have a helper

now when i hire a guy i know there will be times he doesnt work for days or weeks ata time due to things being slow and that is common here

but that doesnt mean that i cant find a guy pay him enough that he could relax during a week off and not hurt for money if he doesnt blow it all when he makes it

because in my area a good resi tech would love to get $20 an hour and i think that a good tech would be worth that and more BUT i will be damned if i am going to pay someone 20+ an hour to sweep the floor or wash a truck just cause its slow
i am now talking about trying to rip anyone off, and if the book says 4 hrs for something and you get it done in 20 minutes then yes you get a 4 hr pay no questions asked UNLESS you took 20 minutes and didnt do it right then i have questions
the times in my book are very easy for me to achieve 99% of the time

yes you will lose on a job every once in a while thats the one down side the idea is it shouldnt happen often

like i said i dont have this in place yet but when i do believe me i will make it worth while cause the idea is to find and keep good people and get rid of the bad ones

one more thing
i have no probem being corected because i dont know everything i have no problems telling a customer or employee that i dont know something i have no problem telling someone i need to ask for help before i give them an answer

i have a good reputation in my area because i either fix it right or i eat it
i dont like eating jobs so i try to do it right the first time once in a while i dont do it right the first time so i redo it free

so anyway isitfixedyet i stick by what i said before if someone doesnt like how i have it setup when its all done its because they are not good at their job or because they are lazy either way probably not the person i want to keep around

[dhvac]

neophytes serendipity
yes i have also had them take longer then that but how many?
one or two in the last 10 years
so what i am saying is ok sorry it sucks but you dint make your $30 and hour on this job because it took so long you only made $15 and hour.............it sucks and tech could be pissed
BUT
the last 40 or 50 jobs you were on you got the done ahead of schedule and you made more then your $30 an hour mabye in some cases even double that
so are you going to complain about one bad one when you have made so much on all the past jobs?

heck if you average out the day you would probably still be above your hourly average

and no if you read up i had a flat fee for getting to a job figured in
not sure what it would be yet cause i dont use this yet but someday hope to
now again read back through what i have said i want to do this to allow a guy to make a good living and not have to worry about making up hours just to keep someone busy when its slow

all you guys that swear you want 40 hrs a week are full of sh!t because if you boss told you he would still pay you for 40 and you could be home for 20 of it you wouldnt turn him down

guys want their paycheck thats it, same as owners same as everyone because as much as we may like our jobs we are not going in on our days off for free because we would rather work then do anything else

i am trying to figure out how to get a guy the same or more money in the same amount or less time

i know it can work and i will make it work when the time comes and i will have techs that will brag about how good of a job they have and thats the idea behind it not to rip people off


on a side note i do feel sorry for some of the guys here cause you must have worked for some real *******s in the past

[isitfixedyet]

Originally posted by dhvac
is it fixedyet
i have a feeling you are dragging something into this thay i have no idea what it is. obviously you feel that a boss is screwing you or did screw you. this is not what i am talking about ,(a),,, I have a feeling ur draggin a tech in this, or u talked to somone that doesnt know what theyre talking about or only want u to know half of it, but since ur a employer , u know theres two sides to this, and u can sure remember when u started , right? not that i am just starting out, lol?(a) ,,, oh of course not, u wouldnt do that!
what i am talking about is being able to pay someone top wages , more then they can make at any other company in the area and not be stuck trying to find stupid work when its slow to keep his "hours up" (a) stupid work? oh cmon, either u got work or u dont , either ur good and busy or ur lazy and slow, if not u better generate some work, or get out ther and learn how to drum up some business, off the companies that are successful and stay competative, or not promise a guy u can help him make ends meet and give him the whole pic of being part time or full time, and what to expect, so u dont lead him on to stay on, and as for the other former contractors, its like a bad boss or a bad employee that goes both ways!
theres alot thatl keep him around to do the dirty work, late calls,and weekend calls, and all their call backs, and warranty calls, and no money calls, and screen them, but u pay him and expect him to do things ur way, but when they dont go the way as expected u , cant figure out how come things are what stupid work found is what stupid gets!

now as a small business ownere i do not have a tech yet i do all that and i do all the installs also i only have a helper (a),,,
so ur the tech and the dispatcher, and ur installer and u get all the service calls, when its slow?

now when i hire a guy i know there will be times he doesnt work for days or weeks ata time due to things being slow and that is common here
(a),,, days and weeks at a time, do u not pay youre bills and work for somone waiting around for days and weeks at a time? is that fair to u?
but that doesnt mean that i cant find a guy pay him enough that he could relax during a week off and not hurt for money if he doesnt blow it all when he makes it
(a),,, so , how much is enough, becasue my normal bills are around 4200 a month, thats not including other bills, can u cover that , for days and weeks at a time or your own?

because in my area a good resi tech would love to get $20 an hour and i think that a good tech would be worth that and more BUT i will be damned if i am going to pay someone 20+ an hour to sweep the floor or wash a truck just cause its slow
i am now talking about trying to rip anyone off, and if the book says 4 hrs for something and you get it done in 20 minutes then yes you get a 4 hr pay no questions asked UNLESS you took 20 minutes and didnt do it right then i have questions
the times in my book are very easy for me to achieve 99% of the time
(a),,, so if u have a tech sittin around , u just feel good about cutting him a check, cause hes on salary, right?

yes you will lose on a job every once in a while thats the one down side the idea is it shouldnt happen often
if ur that small u should just keep a tech slash installer, and thats it, cause if u dont have the work to grow, or business sense to grow, then
somethings wrong! and its not the techs u hire its, the reputation of the work u do! if itsn not that then , u simply need to hire, somone thats seasonal or short term or just on call, such as a sub, and let him do side jobs, so u can rest assure he can feed his family too!
like i said i dont have this in place yet but when i do believe me i will make it worth while cause the idea is to find and keep good people and get rid of the bad ones

(a),,,theres usually no bad ones, theres alot of good ones, and i say ones, or good, because u gotta see throught he bad ones! to get to a sunny day, or a better day!
i worked with some hacks, and i trained them, no they didnt like it , but i had to work less, and put things on auto pilot, rather than go around complaining that i cant get good help or anyone to help me!

one more thing
i have no probem being corected because i dont know everything i have no problems telling a customer or employee that i dont know something i have no problem telling someone i need to ask for help before i give them an answer
(a),,, feel free to jump right in,,,both feet!

i have a good reputation in my area because i either fix it right or i eat it
i dont like eating jobs so i try to do it right the first time once in a while i dont do it right the first time so i redo it free
so whats ur problem, why cant u grow, ? do u keep it small so u dont have to go through any growing pains? or u cant handle a growing business? or u cant find help, because u send them on their way, in not paying them, while ur slow?
and there u are,???
I would pay a salary,and figure out what business , i do have and advertise ,and grow, my business, and not get lazy and complacent and blame everyone else for not finding good help and staying small, or adjusting his calls and hours to stay small or keep him on the borderline of wanting more out of life! or from his career!

so anyway isitfixedyet,(A) YES? i stick by what i said before if someone doesnt like how i have it setup when its all done (a) ,,,, AUTOMATICALLY<???its because they are not good at their job or because they are lazy either way probably not the person i want to keep around aautomatically, its gotta be there fault, cause youre not like that to cheat a tech out of his money , but u wont make it workable, by seeing what u can afford, and whats ur minimum and average profit etc and out going etc, and what it takes to be competitve,and affordable to hire and stay in business, and then u have to pay somone or invest in somone to grow with, unless ur one of those that dont want to grow, or want the headaches? cause u cant handle sharing the profits! bottom line, red flags we all know the kind!
put it how u want but it only comes up one way,,
thats how u do business, u get back what u give, and im sorry thats just my opinon, and everyones got one, but u jumped in on a conversation when somone esle was talking ,and u stepped up, so i just answered u, so pls dont get me wrong, it is what it is!

[Edited by isitfixedyet on 12-08-2006 at 05:30 PM]

[isitfixedyet]

they want a tech,,
to wait all day for a call to come in, and get paid nothing to pay there bills ,and not do side jobs or look for work, and be loyal.
lol
then they want to pay a tech flat rate, and bill the customer alot more!
then they want to pay the tech less,
residential? lol
fly by night mom and pop shops!

[dhvac]

Originally posted by isitfixedyet
they want a tech,,
to wait all day for a call to come in, and get paid nothing to pay there bills ,and not do side jobs or look for work, and be loyal.
lol
then they want to pay a tech flat rate, and bill the customer alot more!
then they want to pay the tech less,
residential? lol
fly by night mom and pop shops!


see you are one of the problems with this idea
you dont have an open mind

i am not a fly by night shop and neither are lots of other smal companies here
the long and short is (again lets use nice round numbers)
lets say you make 40,000 a year and you work 2000 hours @ $20 an hour what woud be wrong with making the same 40k and only working maybe 1700 hrs?

and i am not talking about taking a $20 an hour guy and paying him $20 an hour flat rate i am talking about taking a $20 an hour guy and paying him closer to $30 an hout flat rate (again just round numbers)
now i did work for a guy that only paid on billable hours and i didnt stay because the rate was the same i could make anywhere else so i know that doesnt work what i am talking about is making it so that a good tech would never wat to leave because it sucks to train someone to have them jump ship

[dhvac]

hey anyone readng this that is a resi service tech
do me a favor and post a normal or actual day of work, not how many hours, but how many calls and what each of those calls were
then we can actually get this figured out if you would make more or not

maybe i need to adjust how i am thinking but i know there is a way for a tech to make more using this system

[alpha480v]

I have worked flat rate before and didn't really care for it. Didn't like the fact that I had to stock the truck and gas it up without getting paid for it. You want me to do that stuff, then fine . Pay me for it.

[isitfixedyet]

its not jsut about making more, its about being fair, not only to yourself but to both parties here!

[Milk man]

The difference between auto and hvac shop?

The job comes to you. And a car has a lot less variables.

I want to go to work for someone else. Because I don't want the hassle of managing people. I'm not very good at it and probally will never be. I do very well with repairing equipment. I don't expect large rewards, but I do expect to work year round and to be paid for it.

I'll be loyal to you as long as your loyal to me. Don't tell me your carrying me during the winter and even send me home when I busted my ass for you in the summer. Pay me enough to live comfortably and I can provide for my family. There are ways to track my productivity, so show me in black and white what I'm worth.

Problems with billable hours.
Office staff no doing their job right.
Sales force not doing their job.
Other people's call backs.
My own call backs.
Installation errors.

I'm sure the list can go on.

[dhvac]

so you would rather work more hours for the same money ?

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by acefurnacefixer
I have no problem with flat rate........keeps us honest i think. If the book says 1.5 hrs you get paid 1.5 no matter how long it takes. What pisses me off is employers that use the flat rate system, but dont pay there techs that way.

I worked for a shop like that.

They had no problem sending the guy home if the job was completed ahead of the book time. Customer got billed at a flat rate, but the worker was paid hourly.

No thanks.

[dhvac]

ok let me get this straight
not being a smart ass but you want to get paid hourly, every minute of everyday but you also want to get paid extra if you get done early ?

am I missing something here or just misunderstanding?

Here is what I am getting maybe I misunderstood so please correct me if I am wrong

You do a job that takes 4 hrs the book says 3 you want paid for 4
You also think that you do a job in an hour and the book says 3 you should get the 3?
I don’t see how it is fair for it to work both ways
I also understand that a lot of guys don’t care if its fair they just want to be overpaid and not do anything for it (I am not saying that it is anyone in this conversation but if it gets your panties in a bunch then maybe it does apply to you)

[bruce campbell]

Originally posted by dhvac
so you would rather work more hours for the same money ?

I don't think that anybody said they would rather work more hours for the same amount of money. I think what it boils down to is that people like a little stability in their lifes and that means knowing what to expect on their paycheck from week to week. This is something that would be hard to do when you are getting paid by billable hours.

What happens when times are slow? If you are paying them by billable hours you are not going to pay them for standing around the shop, are you?

So essentially even though you say they are making more per hour worked, what you are not taking into consideration is the fact that when they are not working on something that is billable they aren't getting paid at all. A lot of the things that are required are not billable like getting gas for the company van or making sure that the van is stocked with parts. These are things that have to be done and are just the cost of running a business. Now how do you go about paying the tech for doing this? You don't. This is just time the tech has to eat.

Paying a tech this way is just a sure way to provide cost certainty for the employer. The tech on the other hand will not have this luxury and any unexpected problems will probably cost him time and money.

[dhvac]

Ok milk man
First I will give you that the difference is that we go to the job but if you get paid to show up at the job then what makes a difference you are being paid for it?

Now with this being said if you drive from one far side of my service area to the other extreme the most you could drive is about 50 minutes

As far as work year round I agree but if you make $800 a week for 40 hrs why would you be upset at making $800 in 30?

To pay you what you are worth is what I am suggesting to give you actual top dollar for the time you work not figure in down time so I can hold some back to pay you during slow times
If you make the same money in a year but cant budget it then why is that someone else’s fault? Or even responsibility for that matter
Lets push the same scenario to the extreme let say you get a job offer that they want to pay you for a year up front on estimated hours (I know it would never happen) but lets say they give you a check on Jan 1st for 40k and you have to work for the year before you get another check would you turn that down also (don’t read into it by adding b/s scenarios)

As far as loyalty I don’t see how much more loyal I could get besides paying you 1.5 times the amount you could get anywhere else (remember I was not talking about paying you your average wage)

Now as far as the problems you pointed out


What problems with billable hours it is flat rate that’s the price that’s the hours no problems that I see, I don’t bill customers by the hour I bill them by the job they don’t know how many hours same as I don’t know how much McDonalds pays for my burger or to have it made

Office staff well I guess they could screw that up but also they could screw up any paycheck at any time and it is something that could be easily fixed

Sales force
Since when do salesman sell service calls? For resi anyway?

Other peoples call backs well I think if you have a decent company you should do your own call backs so that you can learn and not have the same callback again (if you need help there should be help available)

Your own call backs
Well honestly to be fair how many do you have? If you have a lot then you shouldn’t be getting top wages if you have a few it shouldn’t be a problem to cover them
Installation errors should be billed to the company as the same hours that the customer would pay

Now I don’t have all the answers but this could work if both the company and the employee can be adults and not try to screw each other

[neophytes serendipity]

Just as an example, if the customer is billed for 8 hours of labor and I get the job done in 6, the usual thing that happens is I get sent home with 6. That really frosts my a$$ when I find out about it.

Sometimes I am paid for 8, but that has been rare until fairly recently.

Sometimes, the jobs run over the time allotted. There can be many reasons for this, ranging from the scope of the work was severely underestimated to poor delivery scheduling from the shop. In all honesty, I am not in a position to purposely stick it up the boss' a$$ because that just ain't so smart.

I suppose if it is OK for the tech in your examples to "eat it" a few times here and there when a job goes bad, then turnabout is fair play, right???

I have never been "officially" paid by flat rate (piecework), but, like I said, I have worked for at least one company that charged for XX hours of labor and rushed the tech/installer to "git 'er done" much faster and then go home short hours.

I also understand that an hourly employee is still kinda paid "by the piece" because there are only so many hours allotted for each job.

I can also say that my current employer is doing everything in his power to keep the two guys that he has from jumping ship. We got paid for 8 hours the other day and really only worked 5.5. We are still fixing SNAFU's from a previous employee. If I got paid strictly by "billable hours" I would have been making an effort to bail long ago. I give the boss a lot of respect, and I have told him so.

[dhvac]

Bruce
No I wouldn’t pay them to stand around the shop because why should they be at the sop if there is no work? I am sure that time off could be better used by doing whatever they like to do rather then standing at work with thumb inserted

as far as getting gas for the company van I don’t know about lots of guys but I get gas once to twice a week at the most it takes 15 minutes each time so at the most its ½ hr a week out of a techs time to put gas in the van and for that you would rather not make as much money?

Not stocking parts should also not take up a lot of time since the parts should be called or faxed in by the tech when they use them on a job and the replacement should be at the shop or dropped off at a job so again there is almost no time here if you have the right systems in place


As far as stability I do understand to a point but don’t know why it should be up to the company to budget for a tech

I mean let’s say every week in the summer you make 15 hrs overtime should they guarantee you the same overtime all year just so you have stability?

And if stability is truly an issue then what is wrong with a salary position?
And why should you get paid overtime on salary when you put in more the 40 hrs but not take a cut when you don’t do 40?

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by dhvac
As far as stability I do understand to a point but don’t know why it should be up to the company to budget for a tech

Why is it that some companies have no trouble budgeting a few weeks vacation for employees, yet in the HVAC industry the company is telling the tech/worker (that is in such short supply) to eff off and sit at home until the boss gets some work????

And employers really wonder why employees have no loyalty or may not give a rats a$$ about the business side of things?

[dhvac]

Ok I think I see where we are having a difference of terms and it is my fault
I am talking about paying by flat rate hours not billable per say

Flat rate hour means (to me at least) you did a job a certain task if you will, that’s what you get paid for doesn’t matter to you where it comes from but it matters that you get it

If you are fixing a mistake made by an installer or another tech then you still get paid for that task, it may have to be billed to the company but again who cares where it comes from as long as it ends up in your check

now as far as your own call backs well as far as I see it you should either get paid top dollar once or there should be some held back (which is what most places do btw) on every job incase you have to go back

so I guess I am the one off track on this thread and I apologize because I wouldn’t want to work for a company that only paid me on the hours they could bill out to a customer I can see issues with that also but what I am talking about I think can work very well with adults on both sides that again don’t want to stick it to each other

[bruce campbell]

Originally posted by dhvac
Bruce
No I wouldn’t pay them to stand around the shop because why should they be at the sop if there is no work? I am sure that time off could be better used by doing whatever they like to do rather then standing at work with thumb inserted

And why should you get paid overtime on salary when you put in more the 40 hrs but not take a cut when you don’t do 40?


It would be hard to get any good use out of that time when you couldn't plan for it. Like when you go into work expecting a full day and then get sent home early.

Why should you get paid overtime for over 40 hours? Because it is the law. As far as taking a pay cut if you don't get 40 hours. That is your job as a boss to make sure that you have enough work lined up to keep your guys busy. If you don't that is not their fault and if you treat them like this you probably would not be able to keep them working for you anyway.

[jpb2]

Dave, maybe I am taking this wrong but befor I entered this trade I worked at an automitive repair shop. I loved the concept of jobs that paid a certain ammount of hours. Everyone who busts ass wins. Most of us would usually work 40-45 hours and log 50-60 pay hours. I agree in this field it should work as well.

[dhvac]

One last thing then I have to hit the sack because I have to get up in 4 hrs to go hunting with my kid
Why is it that performance based pay seems to be rejected so much in this field when it is actually prevalent in other fields?
And yes boys and girls I have examples


Real estate agents ………….no pay unless house sales
Car and mobile home sales people………….. No pay unless they sell
Fed-x delivery get paid by the package delivered
Insurance agents………………. Only paid for what the sell
Roofers……………….paid by the square
Siders…………..again paid by the square
Venders of food products…………………paid by volume of product stocked
Auto mechanics………………..paid by the task
Satellite dish installers……………….paid by the install
Beauticians …………………….. Paid by the hair cut
Block layers…………………paid by the block laid
Window installers…………………..paid by the window
Cement finishers……………paid by the yard
Stereo installers……………. Paid by the piece
Lawyers…………………………paid by the case
Doctors………………………..paid on piece work
I can even think of factory workers that get paid less by the hour if they don’t meet their quota
Truck drivers…………………paid by the mile



Heck I could guess at another 50 jobs but these ones I know for sure because I know people who do them
Of the people I know in these jobs most have been there for years because being paid on performance allows them to make more if they work harder and they like the money so they do put in more effort
But mention it to hvac guys and they want to shoot it down is it that so many have truly been mistreated by lousy companies or is it they don’t want to perform? Again not being a smart ass but I really would like to know

[isitfixedyet]

Originally posted by dhvac
Ok DHVAC
First I will give you that the difference is that we go to the job but if you get paid to show up at the job then what makes a difference you are being paid for it?
(answer)....
the law requires u pay port to port, whether u like it or not! and Most companies dont do this!, but companies dont want to pay what is required.
due to not wanting to pay, the tech, but charges the customer? how is that a B/s scenario?, it very real!, just because , it doesnt agree with you?

Now with this being said if you drive from one far side of my service area to the other extreme the most you could drive is about 50 minutes

(answer),,, and sometimes up to an hour, depending on traffic, and construction, and not zoning, if u can help it or poor scheduling!

As far as work year round I agree but if you make $800 a week for 40 hrs why would you be upset at making $800 in 30?

(answer) ,,, so u want to hold onto the money, in hand and then just miracously just give it away, when its convienant?
or use a bs scenario to justify holding the money, that bills dont wait for? do your bill collectors , say hold my money then when its convienent , pay me?
If were going to get any where, u need to be realistic!
sure wouldnt u just want to be fair up front ,cut through all the chase and be honest to yourself,and ur employees?
simply by just paying them a salary of 40 hrs, and they give u back up to 50 hr work week, that includes off hour calls? then when its slow, it all evens out, and nobody has to complain right? and just think u dont have to find ways of finding , , lets just say , stupid work? or getting ur panties in a bunch?

To pay you what you are worth is what I am suggesting to give you actual top dollar for the time you work not figure in down time so I can hold some back to pay you during slow times
(answer),,, what is top dollar for a j-man tech that means four yrs and up? lets say ten and up? 20-30? have u paid anyone 30 hr? so why should the tech have to finance ur company or budget ur money that u cant make payroll staedily to pay a forty hour work week year round? anyone can present a scenario like that all day long, so its better to meet somone half-way instead of trying to make all kinds of reasons, as to how ur giving up all this money, and are doing somone a favor? it sounds like ur outsmarting urslef, or outdoing urself, or trying to not be honet and fair about things from the start?, rather than simply providing a consistent honest and fair payroll!
why should they have to budget, your poor planning or slow times of your company or mismangement! sure its hard to run a company or business, and its just as equally hard to pay one's bills on promises, that , it might/maybe pick up ?

If you make the same money in a year but cant budget it then why is that someone else’s fault? Or even responsibility for that matter

(answer) lets keep things in perspective , u own the business, u pay the tech or employee, dont whine a song and dance, to not pay him one week, and then the next present your reason or case, when you knew ahead of time you didnt do anything to help the situation, its your responsibility, you own the company,
not the employees to make payroll, and have the work!
you sound like youre trying to convince yourself different by trying to reason with all the difficulties of not being able to manage your business, or grow your company?

Lets push the same scenario to the extreme let say you get a job offer that they want to pay you for a year up front on estimated hours (I know it would never happen) but lets say they give you a check on Jan 1st for 40k and you have to work for the year before you get another check would you turn that down also (don’t read into it by adding b/s scenarios)
(answer),,, oh ok?

As far as loyalty I don’t see how much more loyal I could get besides paying you 1.5 times the amount you could get anywhere else (remember I was not talking about paying you your average wage)
(answer),,,
okay lets say u want to pay only 40 hours for working 30, you going to do that? at 30 per hour? nope, of course your not, you were thinking of how you could pay 30 for a 40 hr work week worked,,, but thats not extreme, when u think about it, it all evens out when u decide to share the profits, and keep a good tech aboard,and find out hes loyal!
not only because he can now trust you but he can pay his bills!
and he doesnt have to do side jobs, and he can turn ur customers down to do them! or moon light, or jump ship!
he can put food on the table, pay his bills, and not lose his azz for divorce for lack of support!

Now as far as the problems you pointed out


What problems with billable hours it is flat rate that’s the price that’s the hours no problems that I see, I don’t bill customers by the hour I bill them by the job they don’t know how many hours same as I don’t know how much McDonalds pays for my burger or to have it made

(answer),,,unless your employee isnt buying lunch ,then u know how much that hamburger cost you ?
if its flat rate its the same as billable, its just another way of putting and setting a bare minimum of alotted repair time, that a tech can make and can charge,and it benefits the employer, more.
o f course know the cost of living and what the market can bare, and allow, and what the tech should be able to live on, too! or
unless he allows drive time,and allows a fair time , for not having the stock, or part, and traffic, and if theres more than one problem or he runs into more problems, then u cant promise how much its going to be, just a ball park range, unless theres something further or unforeseen, issues, thats on the contractors, billing/contracting allowances in each state! Why would the contractor/employer try to keep this from the tech or act like hes unaware of this? not a big deal, the tech's know and so does the Employer!

Office staff well I guess they could screw that up but also they could screw up any paycheck at any time and it is something that could be easily fixed
(answer),,, thats not what were talking about here!lets stay on the issue and subject of paying a fair wage for a fair day's work!

Sales force
Since when do salesman sell service calls? For resi anyway?

(answer),,,u lost me, on this one, but if a guy has his foot in the door, wouldnt it be easier to , help the sale, rather than not care about making recommendations, or giving the customer some options to choose from to upgrade his old or worn outdated equipment, so that its safe and efficient?
or should they just get in and get out!?!since ur paying them, and that sums it all up?

Other peoples call backs well I think if you have a decent company you should do your own call backs so that you can learn and not have the same callback again (if you need help there should be help available)
(answer),,, true story!

Your own call backs
Well honestly to be fair how many do you have?
(answer),,, not as many as the boss,! or as many as a higher paid tech!
If you have a lot then you shouldn’t be getting top wages if you have a few it shouldn’t be a problem to cover them (answer),,,
true story! that's two gives, already thats fair , so far!
i still havent heard you say u'd pay a salary year round, based on whats affordable, whats affordable? to you what can u afford to pay a tech year round , even when its slow? do the math! so it doesnt hurt to keep him aboard or fire him later for a different reason other than u cant or dont want to pay!
Installation errors should be billed to the company as the same hours that the customer would pay ,

(answer),,, so charge the installer as much as the customer pays, when it didnt cost u the same? lol,,, good mentality, lets talk fair here,,, not in all circumstances,,,

not!, it needs to be handled the same way they make the error, they need to go back and get it right, but if its something just to appease the customer, casue it doesnt look like a new plenum and they didnt pay for the upgrade, then , its up to the contractor , to go back out and do it unless he charges and doesnt want the installer to eat the cost! thats a big problem, pretty soon its one little thing and soon the employer gets spoiled, like buying his parts for him at the supply house when his business platinum card is declined and hes yelling at you on the radio, and to just get to the next job, and then hes saying to wait to get the part, then screams , everybodys there a fkin idiot and they all got their heads up their azz', and they all are listening, then he ask u to buy it for him, and then questions u why u cant budget ur money, that he cant pay on time or make, or wont, becasue he wants to pay u for 40 when u only work 30 hrs , so he wants to hold onto it for u and have u finance his company by buying his parts and putting gaas in his van, and even if u use it he wants to charge for that too and make deductions, on top of that and everything else!?!

Now I don’t have all the answers but this could work if both the company and the employee can be adults and not try to screw each other

how can u have all the answers , if ur not being fair or wont consider, what u can afford,and go from there, in the first place, unless u done that and u know what works better for u?
I am sure thats not the case? right?

[Edited by isitfixedyet on 12-09-2006 at 05:32 AM]

[oil lp man]

Billable hours means the tech is always making sure he's not getting screwed.
This job has enough stress without fighting with the boss everyday over hours.

DHVAC, this may work in your shop but not in the vast majority of companies. Because it is probably too tempting to cheat the tech when they give up the right to being paid according to the laws and wages standards (being paid for the time that the employee is to report for work until he is dismissed for the day).
Basically I think if most bosses were given enough rope they would hang us.
Most people want a check every week with overtime if they work a lot of hours. Not some set rate even if they hit 70 hours.
"Lets see 70 hours but I had alot of travel that week and ate up a lot of gas and had to restock my van several times and I still don't have all the parts I ordered. Also I have to return some things that they sent wrong. I still need to fax all this stuff on my time. And I need to discuss all these problems with the boss on my time. Oh yeah he's set up some meetings about some of the problems we are having next week but no pay for that. Damn."


Basically you are looking for subcontractors. Maybe you should just come out and say it.
That way the techs will know up front and can either look for another job or hang up their own shingle and work for you on an as needed basis, when they choose to.

The billable hours has so many holes in it that you would need a lawyer to keep all the rules straight.

[isitfixedyet]

Originally posted by dhvac
One last thing then I have to hit the sack because I have to get up in 4 hrs to go hunting with my kid
Why is it that performance based pay seems to be rejected so much in this field when it is actually prevalent in other fields?
And yes boys and girls I have examples


Real estate agents ………….no pay unless house sales
Car and mobile home sales people………….. No pay unless they sell
Fed-x delivery get paid by the package delivered
Insurance agents………………. Only paid for what the sell
Roofers……………….paid by the square
Siders…………..again paid by the square
Venders of food products…………………paid by volume of product stocked
Auto mechanics………………..paid by the task
Satellite dish installers……………….paid by the install
Beauticians …………………….. Paid by the hair cut
Block layers…………………paid by the block laid
Window installers…………………..paid by the window
Cement finishers……………paid by the yard
Stereo installers……………. Paid by the piece
Lawyers…………………………paid by the case
Doctors………………………..paid on piece work
I can even think of factory workers that get paid less by the hour if they don’t meet their quota
Truck drivers…………………paid by the mile



Heck I could guess at another 50 jobs but these ones I know for sure because I know people who do them
Of the people I know in these jobs most have been there for years because being paid on performance allows them to make more if they work harder and they like the money so they do put in more effort
But mention it to hvac guys and they want to shoot it down is it that so many have truly been mistreated by lousy companies or is it they don’t want to perform? Again not being a smart ass but I really would like to know

of course not, u wouldnt do that, wheres the hours , when u dont have them, how can u offer something u cant give, a performanced based pay, if u dont have , lets just say stupid work, right? or cant guarantee a forty hr work week? wheres the performance of the company in that?

[isitfixedyet]

Originally posted by oil lp man
Billable hours means the tech is always making sure he's not getting screwed.
This job has enough stress without fighting with the boss everyday over hours.

DHVAC, this may work in your shop but not in the vast majority of companies. Because it is probably too tempting to cheat the tech when they give up the right to being paid according to the laws and wages standards (being paid for the time that the employee is to report for work until he is dismissed for the day).
Basically I think if most bosses were given enough rope they would hang us.
Most people want a check every week with overtime if they work a lot of hours. Not some set rate even if they hit 70 hours.
"Lets see 70 hours but I had alot of travel that week and ate up a lot of gas and had to restock my van several times and I still don't have all the parts I ordered. Also I have to return some things that they sent wrong. I still need to fax all this stuff on my time. And I need to discuss all these problems with the boss on my time. Oh yeah he's set up some meetings about some of the problems we are having next week but no pay for that. Damn."


Basically you are looking for subcontractors. Maybe you should just come out and say it.
That way the techs will know up front and can either look for another job or hang up their own shingle and work for you on an as needed basis, when they choose to.

The billable hours has so many holes in it that you would need a lawyer to keep all the rules straight.
Either way, this should be put in a plaque, and hung on every company's door that doesnt want to grow, or pay its tech's! well put well written well said!
end of subject!

[dhvac]

Is it fixed yet
If you are going to quote me at least have the decency to do it accurately
Also it you use the begin and end quote signs in every paragraph you wont have to retype what I said therefore not misquoting me as bad

Now since this is such an issue let me see what you think about this since stability seems to be an issue and one of the main one I am seeing
(I am dismissing the theories of simply cheating an employee because I don’t and won’t do that intentionally and if or when it happens it would be taken care of)

So if I pay what I can afford year round so that you can get at least 32 hrs (32 hrs is full time) every week of the year except when you are on vacation and get a realistic number like 15 per hour for a good tech (again in my area 15 is a real good job and 20 is great)

Now when you get an 8 hour job done in 6 then you are done and you get 6 hrs of pay or move on to the next job for 2 hrs to get your 8

Now when its slow I am not paying anyone to stand around so that means $15 an hour to sweep the floor, wash the truck, do an oil change, or hell just change light bulbs,
Also means if I need flyers handed out and I have to pay you anyway well looks like you are handing out flyers

Would this be acceptable? Or are you going to tell me its not your job to change oil, wash truck, hand out flyers?

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by dhvac
One last thing then I have to hit the sack because I have to get up in 4 hrs to go hunting with my kid
Why is it that performance based pay seems to be rejected so much in this field when it is actually prevalent in other fields?
And yes boys and girls I have examples


Real estate agents ………….no pay unless house sales
Car and mobile home sales people………….. No pay unless they sell
Fed-x delivery get paid by the package delivered
Insurance agents………………. Only paid for what the sell
Roofers……………….paid by the square
Siders…………..again paid by the square
Venders of food products…………………paid by volume of product stocked
Auto mechanics………………..paid by the task
Satellite dish installers……………….paid by the install
Beauticians …………………….. Paid by the hair cut
Block layers…………………paid by the block laid
Window installers…………………..paid by the window
Cement finishers……………paid by the yard
Stereo installers……………. Paid by the piece
Lawyers…………………………paid by the case
Doctors………………………..paid on piece work
I can even think of factory workers that get paid less by the hour if they don’t meet their quota
Truck drivers…………………paid by the mile



Heck I could guess at another 50 jobs but these ones I know for sure because I know people who do them
Of the people I know in these jobs most have been there for years because being paid on performance allows them to make more if they work harder and they like the money so they do put in more effort
But mention it to hvac guys and they want to shoot it down is it that so many have truly been mistreated by lousy companies or is it they don’t want to perform? Again not being a smart ass but I really would like to know


Auto mechanics are paid based on a book rate established by others. Not really the same as "piecework", but you don't make anything unless you have a job scheduled. I have seen the tables and there isn't a table for "rust free southern cars" and "cars where salt is used in winter".

Roofers and drywallers don't get paid by the hour because the boss makes more money if the work is paid by the square or the sheet. A guy shingling a simple roof with gable ends is gonna get more done than the other guy stuck with the valleys. Same thing for drywalling a simple box room compared to something with curves or a tray ceiling.

What you don't know is the typical piece paid residential drywaller is only good for about 7 years before his shoulders are trashed. That's ok, because there is more cheap labor south of the border.

Ever read the instructions on how siding is *supposed* to be installed? None of it is installed that way because it takes too long. Go read a set of instructions and then go look at the seam layout on a house.

Sometimes it would be nice if postal workers got paid by the piece so the line would move faster.

Some of the other positions listed fall under traditional commissioned sales where you won't make any money unless you sell something.

It isn't a stretch to say that incentive based pay sometimes results in poor workmanship. Is that window installer going to take the time to do the job right, or is he going to take just enough time to "git 'er done"?

Construction superindendents are also set up on performance based pay. That's why all the trades are in the same spot at the same time. Gotta beat the deadline to make the bonus. Who cares about "quality".

I bet that HVAC installers/techs paid commission can have some pretty strong temptations to sell equipment instead of fixing it to make more money.

Residential HVAC here is mostly "hourly", but there is a fixed number of hours per tract or "semi-custom" house, so it compares well to "piecework". The boss bids it at XXX hours, tells the foreman there is XX hours, who then tells the guy running his a$$ off that he has X hours to get the job done.

I made some of my best money as an apprentice washing company trucks, sweeping and taking out the trash. Sure beat being sent home without pay.

[alpha480v]

Originally posted by jpb2
Dave, maybe I am taking this wrong but befor I entered this trade I worked at an automitive repair shop. I loved the concept of jobs that paid a certain ammount of hours. Everyone who busts ass wins. Most of us would usually work 40-45 hours and log 50-60 pay hours. I agree in this field it should work as well.

So you worked at a auto repair shop where all the work came to you, right? That would work in that case, but not for a service tech that has to drive from service call to service call. Windsheild time eats up alot of the day if you have a large service area.I worked for a refrigeration contractor that had a statewide coverage area. We were billable hours. You better believe That I got paid for gasing that vehicle up and picking up parts/stocking my van. It got added to the service invoice somehow. If I got to drive 100 miles to service one of your customers, you better be paying me to do it. Bottom line is that flat rate can work for a small coverage area, but not when guys got to drive 1 hour or more.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by jpb2
Dave, maybe I am taking this wrong but befor I entered this trade I worked at an automitive repair shop. I loved the concept of jobs that paid a certain ammount of hours. Everyone who busts ass wins. Most of us would usually work 40-45 hours and log 50-60 pay hours. I agree in this field it should work as well.

The cream will rise to the top, the sour stuff at the bottom will just curdle. Maybe it can become stinky cheese that goes good with whine :)

[isitfixedyet]

U cant keep a good man down, either u pay good, and keep a good helper or employee, or u just pay lousy, take advantage of him and continue to insult everyones intelligence,
and say u got a forty hour work week, when u dont, and know it or cant contol it!, yet you guarantee it, and , only have in mind a partime on call, sub contrator in mind!
but wont be honest, in the hiring stages , because nobody will want to work like that or under those conditions
so employers will , lie just as well as the techs that dont know much, just to get a job or just to get an employee!
so what have we learned here?
dont answer that, pls
the cream rises to the top and rest is u know,
it goes both ways thats companies, and employees, so lets not be so eager to maintain a self rightous self justified
better than thou attitude,,
its a lose lose situation, with no comprimise, for companies, and techs that cant get past this or wont on eitherside!

[oil lp man]

I guess billable would be ok if I was taking half. And half of the markup on parts.
Or maybe we could do a straight subcontract and you could forget about benefits and I will supply my own van and parts and I will give you 10% of billable time only. But if I'm busy with my own customers I will give your customers(soon to be my customers) a window when I will be there.

Let me discuss it with my calculator, I will get back to you.

[ARPA]

Very interesting thread. Amazing how we all do things differently in this trade when we are just a state or two away from each other.
I guess the saying goes "different strokes for different folks" applies.
Another saying pops into my mind from a wise old man, " If you accept my job offer, don't *****, as YOU accepted it.

Starting out in this trade, years ago, one of the best employers that I ever worked for paid this way:
Flat rate, and you made what the flat rate book called for a particular task, in hours. It was a flat rate book that the owner tweaked and adjusted.
For an example.
There was a task/hourly for stocking your van.
There was a task/hourly for training.
There was a task/hourly for van maintenance.
There was a task/hourly for shop time.
The above had to be initialed off by the service manager.

Any call back, if it was yours, you did, free of charge labor, just charged for parts.
Unless it was not a real call back, then flat rate kicked in.
Warranty, you went hourly.
Or in other words, any time you put on your time sheet that was not billable to a job, must be signed off by the service manager, or you did not get paid for it.

Our service area was rather small. We were guaranteed 40 hours, year round. We might have to sweep the shop floor, make metal pieces, wash and wax our van, etc in the winter, but all the techs could rest assured that they would get their 40, at minimum.

Back then, 20 years ago, his flat rate was 120.00 an hour...

For an example:
Arrive and diagnose a burnt out condenser motor, ground level unit. (If the unit was in a hard to reach location, attic or on the roof, ladder use, this added a multiplier to the task.
You had one hour for diagnose and travel. (travel to any location in our area at most took 1/2 hour.
If I remember right, there was not a task that any competent tech could not do in the allotted time.
The time allotted for this task was 3 hours.
(Really only 2, as 1 hour was eaten up for travel and diagnosis)
So, 3 hours for a call to get there, diagnose, get approval to change "just" the fan motor and do it.
A cap was another task, a blade was another task.
IF, you did not have the motor on your van, you charged the customer $75.00 to go get it.
This was all thought out beforehand by the tech, so he knew exactly what to charge the customer, and write down.
I loved this scenario as I can't remember a day that went by that I did not get at least 10 hours for an 8 hour day, minimum.
But, you had to be fast, you had to be efficient, and you had to be "good".
Some techs were just plain slow, or tried every which way to screw the boss, but, this system worked in a way that if you kept up, you did make nice money.

In a way, I am glad that his kid graduated high school, he brought her into the business, and then she decided to change things around, and keep all of this money for herself. In less than a year they had a complete turnover.
If this would not have happened, I would probably still be working for him, and not have started up on my own.

[isitfixedyet]

Originally posted by oil lp man
I guess billable would be ok if I was taking half. And half of the markup on parts.
Or maybe we could do a straight subcontract and you could forget about benefits and I will supply my own van and parts and I will give you 10% of billable time only. But if I'm busy with my own customers I will give your customers(soon to be my customers) a window when I will be there.

Let me discuss it with my calculator, I will get back to you. now thats funny!
i totally agree!
Ill pay u 18 hr togo chane a fan motor aat 1.5 flat rate, and u can get paid 27 big bucks, while i charge three in my hidden flat rate, and mark it up u know at least 100 percent? flat rates not bad, if u allow the warranty industry standard, and manufacturer standard allotted, time, alot of companies charge the ho and the manufacturer, and dont say anything,,, shhhhhh

[neophytes serendipity]

arpa-

I bet if you pay your techs like the company you worked for 20 years ago, that they are reasonably happy and willing to go the extra mile....

[ARPA]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
arpa-

I bet if you pay your techs like the company you worked for 20 years ago, that they are reasonably happy and willing to go the extra mile....

I modeled my business to copy his on numerous things.
My techs are very happy, or so they tell me....
After all, it is about the techs, I try to keep them in mind when I do something.
To me it is a two way street.
They take care of me, I take care of them.

[jrmech]

billable hours is a big scam!!!!!!

I currently work for a company where we get paid billable hours and nobody wins but the OWNER of the company.

-We constantly have to overcharge the customer just to make our regular 8 hours
-everything is a rush job because nothing is properly quoted
-when you are doing some other techs recommendations and they messed up with, u take the hit and work for FREE

the list goes on and on, in a few months I am leaving, I got excellent experience working here but its almost time to move on.

on top of all this, our hourly rate is the same or less then I could make at a shop were they paid properly, absolutely no bennefit to working for this type of company. Once I leave I will never do it again.

[alpha480v]

It looks like to me that some posters on this thread are misunderstanding the difference between Flat Rate and Billable hours.

Billable hours to me is portal to portal, meaning you are paid from the time you get dispatched until the time you get home. This means gassing up the vehicle, picking up the parts, Driving to the call, diagnosing the call, making the repair, writing up the service invoice, and finally the drive home. Many commercial contractors operate this way. How do you as a tech lose out on hours this way? You are paid for everything that has to do with that particular call. How does the owner lose out on this? He charges the customer for every minute that is on the techs service invoice. This is win-win to me.

My understanding of flat rate is every call has a code that can be found in the magic flat rate book in the truck. This code has the price of the repair, along with the allotted time allowed for the repair. If you can get the repair done in the time allotted, great! But if something unforeseen goes wrong with the call, a bolt snaps, somethings too rusted, it takes longer to get apart, and you take longer than the allotted time for whatever reason, well you just lost pay old buddy! The customer and your boss still make out though, because they were protected by the magic flat rate book.

The only way that I can be convinced that a flat rate system would work would be is if 1)the contractors coverage area is small, maybe 1/2 hour or less, and 2)he is residential. I can't see a commercial refrigeration outfit with a 300 mile area coverage using this system and keeping good techs. Too many variables in the supermarket side that can go wrong to bill flat rate. And try explaining to the on call tech that he won't be paid for the 65 miles travel time for the 2 am call that he took on Saturday for that walkin freezer. Good luck keeping good reefer techs with a flat rate system!

And finally, Nobody has yet explained who stocks the trucks and gases them up under a flat rate system if your not paying the techs to do it? Or is this covered in the magic flat rate book?

[oil lp man]

Alpha,
How can you call picking up parts, cleaning out the van, stocking the van , turning in invoices, washing the van, picking up special tools to do a job, meetings, training, etc. billable to the customer? They only want to pay for the time you are there and maybe 1/2 hour travel at most.

[ARPA]

Originally posted by alpha480v
It looks like to me that some posters on this thread are misunderstanding the difference between Flat Rate and Billable hours.

Billable hours to me is portal to portal, meaning you are paid from the time you get dispatched until the time you get home. This means gassing up the vehicle, picking up the parts, Driving to the call, diagnosing the call, making the repair, writing up the service invoice, and finally the drive home. Many commercial contractors operate this way. How do you as a tech lose out on hours this way? You are paid for everything that has to do with that particular call. How does the owner lose out on this? He charges the customer for every minute that is on the techs service invoice. This is win-win to me.


This is how I understand billable hours are done, It is how I do commercial work.



The only way that I can be convinced that a flat rate system would work would be is if 1)the contractors coverage area is small, maybe 1/2 hour or less, and 2)he is residential.
And finally, Nobody has yet explained who stocks the trucks and gases them up under a flat rate system if your not paying the techs to do it? Or is this covered in the magic flat rate book?

Hmm,
I am pretty sure in my post I did mention how flat rate works for my residentail....

[dhvac]

arpa
do you have any more info you could send me on how this works this looks like the perfect setup

i like that it pays you for what you do not how long it takes you to do it

i also like the fact that good techs would make money and the bad ones will leave due to going broke

any help at all would be greatly appriciated
thanks
dave


ps my email adds is in my profile if you could send anything

[oil lp man]

That billing the customers for miscellaneous stocking the van and other stuff I mentioned won't fly with "residential" customers.

[ARPA]

Dave:
sent.

[cg2]

[i]

Back then, 20 years ago, his flat rate was 120.00 an hour...


[/B]

There's what made it work, charging enough to pay the tech well and still make a profit. Too many people in this biz cant do enough math to figure what they need to charge to make a profit. 2 times hourly wage? 3 times? more?

[nesc522]

Originally posted by alpha480v

Billable hours to me is portal to portal, meaning you are paid from the time you get dispatched until the time you get home. This means gassing up the vehicle, picking up the parts, Driving to the call, diagnosing the call, making the repair, writing up the service invoice, and finally the drive home. Many commercial contractors operate this way. How do you as a tech lose out on hours this way? You are paid for everything that has to do with that particular call. How does the owner lose out on this? He charges the customer for every minute that is on the techs service invoice. This is win-win to me.


This is exactly how the shop I work is, and it works well for us. I would be worried about working for a company that didn't have enough work and being paid on billable hours, but we do market work and there is all the hours you want. I average 60 to 65 hrs a week, get paid when I leave my house and until I return home. I don't know about the other guys, but I make sure all my time is billable( gassing van, parts and etc). If it is a van maint issue, or some company thing that is not for a customer, then the company has to send us a non-productive work order and my time goes on that. Consitently getting 20-25 hrs or more of overtime is the reason I came back to this company.

[alpha480v]

Originally posted by oil lp man
Alpha,
How can you call picking up parts, cleaning out the van, stocking the van , turning in invoices, washing the van, picking up special tools to do a job, meetings, training, etc. billable to the customer? They only want to pay for the time you are there and maybe 1/2 hour travel at most.

1).Picking up parts on the way to the job is part of the job. Why shouldn't that customer be charged the time to pick up the parts for their job?

2).No need to clean out the van if everything is put back in it's place. It is difficult To keep a van clean I know, but I worked refrigeration service, and ran myself ragged, but my van was clean, and stocked.

3).Washing the van? What's that? Never did it.. Bosses would not pay me for it, so it didn't get clean. Not my vehicle MR.boss-man!

4). Training, shop meetings are shop time, billable as such on the time card. Again, If not going to be paid for it, I don't do it, period.

You can't totaly eliminate shop time in a commercial shop. Some things the techs do just can't be billed to a customer. But it's not a free lunch either. If you want your techs to go to training, service meetings, ect., they have to be paid.

[alpha480v]

Originally posted by nesc522

Originally posted by alpha480v

Billable hours to me is portal to portal, meaning you are paid from the time you get dispatched until the time you get home. This means gassing up the vehicle, picking up the parts, Driving to the call, diagnosing the call, making the repair, writing up the service invoice, and finally the drive home. Many commercial contractors operate this way. How do you as a tech lose out on hours this way? You are paid for everything that has to do with that particular call. How does the owner lose out on this? He charges the customer for every minute that is on the techs service invoice. This is win-win to me.


This is exactly how the shop I work is, and it works well for us. I would be worried about working for a company that didn't have enough work and being paid on billable hours, but we do market work and there is all the hours you want. I average 60 to 65 hrs a week, get paid when I leave my house and until I return home. I don't know about the other guys, but I make sure all my time is billable( gassing van, parts and etc). If it is a van maint issue, or some company thing that is not for a customer, then the company has to send us a non-productive work order and my time goes on that. Consitently getting 20-25 hrs or more of overtime is the reason I came back to this company.


That's how the last 2 companies that I worked for did it. Some things just can't be billed to the customer, like a truck breakdown or oil change. But we as techs can't be expected to do extra stuff off the clock either, without being paid for it! That's what the shop time is for.

[isitfixedyet]

they just dont want to charge the customer more, when its easier to charge the tech! or employee!
truth be known , for lack of better terms!

[oil lp man]

Originally posted by alpha480v

Originally posted by oil lp man
Alpha,
How can you call picking up parts, cleaning out the van, stocking the van , turning in invoices, washing the van, picking up special tools to do a job, meetings, training, etc. billable to the customer? They only want to pay for the time you are there and maybe 1/2 hour travel at most.

1).Picking up parts on the way to the job is part of the job. Why shouldn't that customer be charged the time to pick up the parts for their job?

2).No need to clean out the van if everything is put back in it's place. It is difficult To keep a van clean I know, but I worked refrigeration service, and ran myself ragged, but my van was clean, and stocked.

3).Washing the van? What's that? Never did it.. Bosses would not pay me for it, so it didn't get clean. Not my vehicle MR.boss-man!

4). Training, shop meetings are shop time, billable as such on the time card. Again, If not going to be paid for it, I don't do it, period.

You can't totaly eliminate shop time in a commercial shop. Some things the techs do just can't be billed to a customer. But it's not a free lunch either. If you want your techs to go to training, service meetings, ect., they have to be paid.


Commercial and residential are totally different. Apples and oranges. 90% of what we do is residential. And no we don't charge to pick up parts that are not on the van, even if its an OEM part.
I do oil service and propane service where most only do one or the other. So yes my van requires more attention.
Half the time I have to spend 10 minutes to get at a part that is buried. And it is a chore to find room for the stock I need to replace after everything has settled in its place.
But if I have to spend more time cleaning my van because of this on my time, I will gladly remove half my van stock and dump it in the garage.
And no I don't make a big difference in pay for being licensed to work on oil and propane units. But the more we are pressured to do things on own time the more money that is required.
Washing the van. LOL. you got me on that one. I will wash it once a week on my time or until the road salt eats all the paint off whichever comes first. I guess maybe I'll do that on my lunch break. Oh yeah, no time for lunch.
As far as mandatory meetings go the law says you have to pay. So theres no way around that.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by isitfixedyet
they just dont want to charge the customer more, when its easier to charge the tech! or employee!
truth be known , for lack of better terms!

Plenty of that around here- even within union ranks.

Don't provide a truck for the boss to use to get his materials to the site? Layoff

Don't provide hand and power tools above and beyond those listed in the contract tool list (that the employers sign)? Layoff

Don't provide a phone so the boss can call you on it and ask why aren't you done yet? Layoff

Nothing like subsidizing the business and buying your job so the boss can buy that new Harley, Lexus, second vacation home...

Plenty of people here say unions are crooked... Unions got plenty of competition from crooked employers.

[timmay]

my my my
i was looking for this thread.
I've always worked for a company that pays hourly.
Get paid from the minute we get to the shop to the end of our last call.
I always thought this was the way to go.
we've had a slow year, at least it seems that way to me.
I can't get an 8 hour day to save my life.

now some friends in the business say that it's my fault. I should slow down. but I'm of the mind set that if i do fast, clean work and get the job done correctly i should be compensated for that. and i have. For only a 3rd year tech i can't quit cause I'm paid so far out of scale i would take a pay cut at any job i go to. i even went on an interview and the guy said everyone working for him would be pissed if he even matched my salary.

Hell, I'm not even a ninja tech. In my opinion i have TONS to learn still. But i make customers feel good about repairs, i explain everything, make sure they know exactly what they are in for before i make a repair. i have more call back requests (not call backs) than anyone at the shop. You'd be surprised what a smile and a good attitude get you.

enough self praising

I've always thought being paid by billable hours was a rip off to the tech. i can see now that it does have positive and negative sides. If you're a fast tech = good. If you're slow = bad. The thing i've always thought was that it encouraged unneeded repairs to pad the bill and time.

customer is low on 22. They want a gas and go. not sure what others are charging per pound. lets say they need 2lbs. for us that would be roughly 50 plus trip. Lets say thats every call i get for that day 6-8 calls. Thats not alot of money. So then i start looking for anthing to get an extra buck or two. i don't work well doing that.

ok. not sure if i presented that well but you get the idea. This thread has been very enlightening.

[timmay]

Originally posted by oil lp man
I guess billable would be ok if I was taking half. And half of the markup on parts.
Or maybe we could do a straight subcontract and you could forget about benefits and I will supply my own van and parts and I will give you 10% of billable time only. But if I'm busy with my own customers I will give your customers(soon to be my customers) a window when I will be there.

Let me discuss it with my calculator, I will get back to you.

i know a company like that.

offered me a job and after all is said and done you don't make much more than anyone else.

his deal.

you stock the truck w/ your own $$
he has an ENORMOUS ad campaign, every single phone book in the area, whole page ads.
you do a call,
no trip charge if a repair is made
After you bill them. You get the money back to replace the part and the rest is split 50/50
thats it.
your truck
your gas
your parts
your repairs
your insurance
his advertising

i had to pass.
I will admit a friend went to work for him and he is making $$. but he's also pulling 12 hour days 6 days a week (appliance repair is a BIG chunk of thier business). He told me what one of his weekly checks were. $700 of which was parts replacment $$. If i put in the hours he worked, then subtrack all the stuff he has to pay for, van, gas, health insuance.... he makes 2 dollars an hour more than me. No going higher cause he's already at a 50/50 split.

[oil lp man]

Originally posted by timmay

Originally posted by oil lp man
I guess billable would be ok if I was taking half. And half of the markup on parts.
Or maybe we could do a straight subcontract and you could forget about benefits and I will supply my own van and parts and I will give you 10% of billable time only. But if I'm busy with my own customers I will give your customers(soon to be my customers) a window when I will be there.

Let me discuss it with my calculator, I will get back to you.

i know a company like that.

offered me a job and after all is said and done you don't make much more than anyone else.

his deal.

you stock the truck w/ your own $$
he has an ENORMOUS ad campaign, every single phone book in the area, whole page ads.
you do a call,
no trip charge if a repair is made
After you bill them. You get the money back to replace the part and the rest is split 50/50
thats it.
your truck
your gas
your parts
your repairs
your insurance
his advertising

i had to pass.
I will admit a friend went to work for him and he is making $$. but he's also pulling 12 hour days 6 days a week (appliance repair is a BIG chunk of thier business). He told me what one of his weekly checks were. $700 of which was parts replacment $$. If i put in the hours he worked, then subtrack all the stuff he has to pay for, van, gas, health insuance.... he makes 2 dollars an hour more than me. No going higher cause he's already at a 50/50 split.


But when I mentioned 50% of profit on his parts that included 50% on labor and I still get bennies and use his van and gas.
Otherwise they can screw.
But if you're only a journeyman then you are at the mercy of whoever you are working for or go find another job.
But if its your license that he is using to work you with then you leave and he will have to find someone to replace that license with.

[Edited by oil lp man on 12-10-2006 at 01:37 PM]

[Milk man]

Originally posted by dhvac
so you would rather work more hours for the same money ?

Sorry it took so long to get back.

I don't mind working 40 hours a week for less money when I know week after week I'll be working. I like the security. I expect the owners to manage the workload so there will be work for everyone in February. I expect the owners to manage the company funds so there will be money to pay employees during the slow times. In return I will be there when I'm needed. Day or night. July or February.

To me it's all about what goes on the 1040 at the end of the year. Taking into consideration that I'm not spending 80 hours a week at work in July and zero hours for the month of February.

[Milk man]

My shop time is pretty productive. I can look around and see things that need to be taken care of. Hardly any of it is BSing with other techs. And when we do talk it has mostly to do with past jobs. Sometimes we just talk though. I'm closer to these people at my job than any other shop. It's a friendly place and we are will to help one and another. I think if we where ran out of the shop everytime, it would not be as friendly and we would not help eachother as much.

[Milk man]

Every day. I know how and I do. It's certianly not about money management.

[dhvac]

milk man
i was not even trying to suggest that you shouldnt get a "regular paycheck" in the reguards to every week what i am saying is that there has to be a way to pay you well enough in the time that you do, you own job (not sweeping the floor or changing oil) that you shouldnt have to put up with the work that i hated so much when i worked for someone else

if you can get paid on productivity then you should make more money in less time there for when it is slow you should still have enough to live without having to do tasks that are better suited for a janitor

also if you do more work and make more for the company then why should the guys slacking off make the same paycheck?

[secorp]

The only time I ever worked Piece meal was with installation.
This thread has now taught me the difference between Billable and Flat Rate.
Sounds like it works better in Resi. than comm.


I am commercial hourly now and never been happier!
I will stay Hourly!

[Milk man]

milk man
i was not even trying to suggest that you shouldnt get a "regular paycheck" in the reguards to every week what i am saying is that there has to be a way to pay you well enough in the time that you do, you own job (not sweeping the floor or changing oil) that you shouldnt have to put up with the work that i hated so much when i worked for someone else

if you can get paid on productivity then you should make more money in less time there for when it is slow you should still have enough to live without having to do tasks that are better suited for a janitor

also if you do more work and make more for the company then why should the guys slacking off make the same paycheck?

It must just be the way I'm wired.

I don't think I've been in a well enough orginized shop that could support performanced base pay. I do a lot of clean up. Hard to bill someone that has spent $500 and their furnace still isn't running.

[Ammonianite]

Indeed, there are pluses and minuses to the "billable time" modus of pay. That's how they do it where I work. The managment obviously thinks that it is advantageous for them to operate this way. They most certainly wouldn't do anything that would lean toward the tech. However, as with most management, they fail to see the disadvantage of the "billable time" only scenario. What happens under this operating mode is that unscrupulous, disillusioned, or aggravated technicians will "stick it to the customer" instead of "stickin' it to the Man." All time will be billed to the customer- picking up paperwork, "turnover meetings," socializing at the shop, lunch hour or two or three (one guy sat out in the dining room for a two hour lunch, billed the customer for it, and still didn't fix the problem right- I know, I had to run his callback and recieved a good ten minute cursing and gripe session; all legitimate). Obviously, under this mode of operation, "billable time only" reaps great short-term profit but inevitable long-term consequences through loss of customers and reputations. Yet, management has persistently encouraged the billing of all time, even non-productive time to the customer, even meetings that have nothing to do with the particular customer that one is slated to service or perform maintenance.

I won't do it. It is dishonest. So oftimes I am in uniform for 50 hours but perhaps get paid for 45 because I will not "fudge on the service ticket time.
Hey, I have to sleep at night and I care for my own reputation even if the company is not worried about their own.

And then mangement wonders why there is an exodus of accounts . . .

[frostmonkey]

Every job I've had in this great trade of our has been a billable hour job,enfact its tough to find one that isn't around here. The system has its advantages and disadvantages,as do all systems.But the one thing that bothers me the most is how comfortable employers get with the pharse "I need this done asap, but we can't pay you to do it...." employers will fight tooth and nail to not work for less than their hourly rate,and they make money off the parts they sell,but they expect their guys to cut their hourly rate all the time by only paying them for aportion of what they worked, and we make zilch on parts sales!

[esornivram]

The auto industry has been doing this for years and it could work in our industry also

Granted it takes people who want to make it work
As an owner I am not looking to screw anyone (hard to believe I know)
When I worked for someone else I hated getting stupid jobs to fill a time card like sweep the shop floor or dusting sheet metal fittings

Now let’s use nice round numbers and not sure how much people get paid in their areas but let’s say a tech makes $20 an hour for every hour he is at work so he does 40 hours and makes $800 for the week

Now let’s take the same tech and put him on a good flat rate system lets say he makes $10 just to show up at a call and he makes $30 an hour for flat rate now he gets 45 min to troubleshoot which is $22.50
Now he changes a furnace blower motor which in my book takes 1.5 hrs so he will make another $45 now on this one call he has made $77.50 or a little more then 3.5 hours of what he made at $20 an hour

Now how many calls do you do in a week or even a day?

I don’t think that this would work with the real lazy or real slow techs I also don’t think it is fair if you are making the same wage as you was before this

But for someone who cares about their work and won’t take shortcuts this could be a great thing

You have the potential of making a lot more money
It also allows the company to not have to worry about making payroll when things are slow by having you sweep the shop because even if you only worked 3 days in a week you could have the potential of getting a 40 hr check

Now I know not al companies would be fair with it and it would take some time to get everything worked out so that no one was losing money
Now somewhere in these books it has a task that says it will take you 45 min to do this and no way anyone could ever do it in that time then it should be adjusted and yes the tech would lose out on one job but make up for it on 50 more
Also we all know there are some things that just don’t go right so yes the tech would lose on that also but like I said for every 1 that goes real bad you have 20 to 100 that go right

Also I only do resi work so I am not speculating anything on commercial or industrial because even though I feel that 45 minutes is enough to diagnose a resi unit (99&#37; of the time) it may very well be too short to do anything in another line
WRITES an set of books that covers all the differences in each MFG units and puts approiate time to cover all the differences in the units, AND covers all the differences in the installations your can come across, from crawl space with no room to remover and blower, to attics with trusses and no room to pull out an blower housing, THEN AND MAYBE JUST THEN I could consider an flat rate, but untill then flat rate if for the birds, and it hurts everybody who tries it, then only one who benefits is an owner who cant manages his personal,

[HVACR-Jr]

Hello Mr. ARPA

Is it possible to have you share the same information with me.

Your time and assistance is appreciated

Thanks
Angel


arpa
do you have any more info you could send me on how this works this looks like the perfect setup

i like that it pays you for what you do not how long it takes you to do it

i also like the fact that good techs would make money and the bad ones will leave due to going broke

any help at all would be greatly appriciated
thanks
dave


ps my email adds is in my profile if you could send anything

[kim]

Only flat rate job Iworked was a nightmare. I like to do a good job whenever I can. It is hard to get paid when you are following 3 or 4 years of shortcuts. Before I can do my job, I have to finish the job that was 3/4 done before I arrived.

Coil cleaning is the worst. A couple of years of spraying a little water on the coil, then I come along to actually clean it.

Most of the systems for that company were overcharged as well. I quess it does not pay to wait a little while to make sure the charge is right.

When I said something to the boss. He said" I did this work for 35 years, you can't pull anything over on me." I n the same conversation he also told me I can't use more than one set of gages at a time. I asked him if he ever worked on a system that had 4 or 6 compressors. Did not last long after that comment

So in a perfect world flat rate is great, In a perfect world things would not break though.

As far as billable hours, I bill for drive time, supply house trips, etc. Everything but call-backs.

[thump_rrr]

Only flat rate job Iworked was a nightmare. I like to do a good job whenever I can. It is hard to get paid when you are following 3 or 4 years of shortcuts. Before I can do my job, I have to finish the job that was 3/4 done before I arrived.

Coil cleaning is the worst. A couple of years of spraying a little water on the coil, then I come along to actually clean it.

Most of the systems for that company were overcharged as well. I quess it does not pay to wait a little while to make sure the charge is right.

When I said something to the boss. He said" I did this work for 35 years, you can't pull anything over on me." I n the same conversation he also told me I can't use more than one set of gages at a time. I asked him if he ever worked on a system that had 4 or 6 compressors. Did not last long after that comment

So in a perfect world flat rate is great, In a perfect world things would not break though.

As far as billable hours, I bill for drive time, supply house trips, etc. Everything but call-backs.
We're a small non union shop (2 techs) but we're well treated get to bring our trucks home with us and even get to choose our own vehicles.
We get paid breakfasts or lunches or very nice suppers when we're out discussing business.
All our customers are large commercial or industrial.
We work on billable hours with 1 hour drive time billed to every service call within the city.
Outside the city we bill actual drive time.
Sometimes I lose a little time in traffic other times I can bang off 3 calls in the same area and pick up some extra time.
I also worked as a manufacturers technical rep in the past where we were paid fixed salary with no overtime pay but I was also well compensated for it so I didn't mind.