Amana White Rogers Debacle

[jdriller]

It is cold..very cold...
Background: I have an Amana Air Command 80 SV gas forced air furnace that won't stay on. It has a White Rogers Ignition Module 50A52-120. The gas ignites on start up and then after a few seconds the ignition plug shuts off and the gas will burn for a bit but then it shuts off and cycles again and the plug does not re-light. Our utility guy came out and did extensive diagnostics and initially said the timing is off but maybe the flame sensor is bad as well (but continuity test with it off shows it is ok) - one or the other. Amana no longer makes this furnace and I can't seem to get a replacement module from White Rogers.
Question: My question is 'Why can't I get some alternate controller module to replace the White Rogers - the furnace itself is fine?'. People are saying I have to replace the entire furnace...if they knew it was tied into a central AC system I feel like they would say I have to replace that too...It kills me that I may have to junk all this good metal and equipment because some CEO got his bonus by selling his company and tossing a bunch of workers - not to mention that I will have to spend thousands instead of 200....Suggestions anyone?

[4l530]

Originally posted by jdriller
but maybe the flame sensor is bad as well (but continuity test with it off shows it is ok)
Not sure how a continuity test will prove anything about a flame sensor. The only thing that can go wrong with a flame sensor itself is if the porcelain breaks. Which I doubt is the case here.

Question: My question is 'Why can't I get some alternate controller module to replace the White Rogers - the furnace itself is fine?'.
I'm sure you could. White-Rogers may not make that particular module any longer, but there's probably a replacement module that will work.
How old is the furnace?

[coolguysfl]

If you post the full model # & mfg #.... a young fellow named RoboTech will be along to help.

I know you're cold & frustrated... relax on the CEO bonus.... your furnace has a lot of miles on it, there are compatible controls. A recommendation to go to a new furnace might still be good advice given cost of operation vs. new

[mark beiser]

The White Rogers 50A52-120 ignition module is for systems that use radiant flame sensing, Trane used the same system in some furnaces.

The ignition module and radiant flame sensor were discontinued because it turned out that the radiant flame sensing system has a potentially very dangerous failure mode that allows the control to hold the gas valve open continuously with no flame present.

There is a kit that changes to a different control board that uses flame rectification for the flame sensing.
The kit comes with a new control board, new flame sensor, gas valve connection block, some wiring harness stuff, new wiring diagram stickers, etc.

If your heat exchanger and the rest of the furnace is determined to be in otherwise good condition, the kit needs to be installed to convert it to flame rectification. Chances are good that the conversion will also solve your problem.

[jdriller]

The furnace is supposedly from August 1995. The White Rogers Ignition Module is 50A52-120 and furnace is AMANA # 11003101

I brought the flame sensor to a parts place since our hvac guy shows up next friday (its Saturday now and wife is on me to DO SOMETHING) as they are swamped with the cold weather - and the first guy told me it was the sensor or the controller. The flame sensor has three prongs but the new ones have only 2. But it sounds like that is irrelevent anyway.

I think I will have the HVAC guy do a complete recommendation and cost evaluation re getting a new setup but was thinking that the cost/efficiency tradeoff was not in favor of new as the unit was not *that* old...

I saw another old post on here re the vacuum detector circuit that showed similar symptoms but the diagnostic guy showed power in and out of that....

Please forgive my ignorance and thanks for the advice.

[mark beiser]

Ask your servicer to bring the retrofit kit with him, since it will need to be retrofited if you are keeping the furnace, even if the actual problem is not related to the control board or radiant flame sensor.

[beenthere]

That retro kit is going to cost you more then you think.

[hvaclover]

ICP used that POS too.

Man. I have never seen a worse design. We got several bad sensors out of the box.

I think the engineer was on something when he came up with that idea.

We convert them over now, or we don''t mess with it at all.

The kit should run about the midrange of three figures installed.

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by hvaclover
Man. I have never seen a worse design.

No kidding. You would think that they would have made the control board check to see if the NO contacts in the flame sensor were open before powering up the ignitor, but NOPE, as long as the NC contacts are closed, it goes right ahead. They didn't even make it mechanically impossible for both sets of contacts to be closed at the same time...

If the NO contacts in the radiant sensor are stuck closed, and the HSI fails, the system will go ahead and open the gas valve and keep it open with no flame.
That control system is a bomb waiting to go off.

[jdriller]

Mark & All,
As it takes an act of Congress to get Amana support to answer their phones (hung up on my wife twice and the service guy says he wont sit on the phone) - would you happen to know the kit number that we should get? Can I ask white Rogers as it sounds like it would come from them vs Amana anyway...?

Thanks for the advice - BTW our HVAC guy is not certified NATE or a member of ACCA or SMACNA - should we be concerned - he comes recommended from the parts places...and warranties his work 90 days. He also seems knowledgeable but knew nothing of this kit.

He also says it won't save us greatly to go to the higher efficiency ($50/yr at current costs) and then you have increased repair costs as the newer models are more problematic. So, he is recommending going with repair vs replace even though this furnace is at the low end of the efficiency scale (saying a 95%+ efficiency would cost us upwards of 10k). What do you all use as a gauge to determine when to replace? This is looking to cost us several hundred vs several thousand so greater than our lifetime to recoup costs at current rates. We are in the Bay Area California so we only use heat 3 months of the year.

Thanks again for all your time and input on this.

I... must...go ..now an..d thaw...finger..s... ;-]

[beenthere]

I'd be more worried about a service tech that doesn't have time to wait for Amana tech support(since your wife was able to get a hold of them), then weather he's nate certified.

Tech support generally won't talk to home owners.

We have to get the conversion from Amana distributor, the other supply houses tell us that its OEM only.
Could be they just don't want to take the time to get it for us though.


And I don't remmember the number. Sorry

[mark beiser]

This seems to indicate that the kit part number would be 20224301, but I don't know if that is the number the supplier would have it listed as.
http://www.dnmech.com/lit/20219201.pdf

Depending on how the distribution in your area is, your tech may be able to get the kit from the local Goodman distributor.


It sounds like your heating needs are similar to ours here in the DFW area of Texas. For us its not even worth spending the extra for a high efficiency furnace when the furnace is being replaced anyway, much less upgrading from an existing furnace that is in good condition.

[Milk man]

If the furnace was here in Kansas I'd be pushing for a new furnace. You would get a 5 year parts warranty and at least a 20 year heat exchanger warranty. We are talking about an 11 year old furnace. Over half it's expected life is gone.

But, since you only use the furnace 3 months out of the year it could have a lot of life left. How long do you expect to be in your house?

Ten grand seem a little step for any furnace. What all where they wanting to do?

[jrbenny]

Is there only one service tech in the Bay Area?

[jdriller]

Yes, it seems high to me too - now I am paranoid that this guy may be is not the best to go to...at any rate I will get a bid on the install of the retrofit and then ask about alternatives as well. I will see what the cost of new would be as well and report back.

When you all put in a new furnace do you assume that the one in there is correctly sized and just put the same size in as was there?

[beenthere]

Originally posted by jdriller

When you all put in a new furnace do you assume that the one in there is correctly sized and just put the same size in as was there?

NO.

[jrbenny]

Originally posted by jdriller
I will see what the cost of new would be as well and report back.

Please don't. No pricing allowed on the forum. Thanks.