Need R410a for 14.5 seer and higher?

[tpa05]

I'm in the process of purchasing a 3.5 ton system (type/model still unknown - until say midnight) and I'm told by one of the three vendors I've spoken to that if I'm to purchase a system with a seer rating of higher than 14.5 that I might need to purchase an R410 system instead of a r22 and, if so, will need to "swap out" the existing copper in my home. My house is 10 years old. Is this correct?

[heatpumpguru]

it is recommended,due to oils also size of line may need to be larger.They can be flushed if they are the right size.

[mark beiser]

I think the Trane XL15i and XL19i may be the only R-22 systems out there that go 15 SEER and higher on R-22.

[tpa05]

As I've indicated in another post I'm purchasing a Goodman system and I'm not sure if the "system" is 15 seer or if it's just one of the components. If so, I'm again confused as I'm not sure if it's possible to have one component that's that high while the rest remains "within r22 range". Thanks guys and again, any help is appreciated.

[gsxrsquid]

If you have not already purchased it, re-evaluate. 410a systems give you more efficiency with smaller size. yes you have to change the line set. Yes it will cost more, but you will get more for your money.
JMO

[emcoasthvacr]

I get nervous reading some of these posts about residential system tonnage, especially the ones in the 3-5 ton range.

Since most AHU's are designed around 0.5 SP, an oversized tonnage system is ridiculousy inefficient.


Originally posted by tpa05
I'm in the process of purchasing a 3.5 ton system (type/model still unknown - until say midnight) and I'm told by one of the three vendors I've spoken to that if I'm to purchase a system with a seer rating of higher than 14.5 that I might need to purchase an R410 system instead of a r22 and, if so, will need to "swap out" the existing copper in my home. My house is 10 years old. Is this correct?

[tpa05]

My home is 2000 sqft one level. The existing unit is 3.5 tons as are most of the homes in my subdivision. Home size also matches mine as the average is between 1900 and 2100 sqft. Not sure if this is done as a rote exercise as these values match those detailed in all Zone 1 homes. I live in Florida.

[emcoasthvacr]

where at in Florida -- I'm in Panama City Beach.

I spoke with a GC today building a high-end 2 level home. The 1st floor is 1800-2000 sf and I questioned him installing a 2.5 ton unit on the lower level(2nd level will have a seperate unit). He said that they will be downsizing to a 2 ton unit. The house will have R-30 insulation.

All I'm saying is please be prudent when purchasing your new system -- the higher SEER rating might allow you to operate a smaller, thus more efficient unit.



Originally posted by tpa05
My home is 2000 sqft one level. The existing unit is 3.5 tons as are most of the homes in my subdivision. Home size also matches mine as the average is between 1900 and 2100 sqft. Not sure if this is done as a rote exercise as these values match those detailed in all Zone 1 homes. I live in Florida.

[Edited by emcoasthvacr on 11-28-2006 at 09:04 PM]

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by emcoasthvacr
I spoke with a GC today building a high-end 2 level home.

The 1st floor is 1800-2000 sf and I questioned him installing a 2.5 ton unit on the lower level
(2nd level will have a seperate unit).

He said that they will be downsizing to a 2 ton unit.
The house will have R-30 insulation.

All I'm saying is please be prudent when purchasing your new system -- the higher SEER rating might allow you to operate a smaller, thus more efficient unit.


Originally posted by tpa05
The existing unit is 3.5 tons as are most of the homes in my subdivision.

Home size also matches mine as the average is between 1900 and 2100 sqft. Not sure if this is done as a rote exercise as these values match those detailed in all Zone 1 homes. I live in Florida.

[Edited by emcoasthvacr on 11-28-2006 at 09:04 PM]
EM,

1. 2-ton for 2,000 Sq. Feet is likely NOT an acceptable selection ( unless the house does not have any windows and ACH is < 0.15).

2. Higher SEER has NOTHING to do with capacity!

[emcoasthvacr]

Don't know what part of Florida you're at(SE,SW, central, panhandle).

The windows are low LOE windows, and since we're on the beach, temps rarely get above 90 degrees. In addition, the front & back porches are facing the rise & fall of the sun. The windows are facing the North & South; moreover, the Medjool Palms (175k for those puppies) provide shading. I believe the roof & 2nd floor are rated at R-55, and I need to double check the 2nd floor tonnage.

The 2nd floor heating load and insulation in the roof dictates what tonnage is required on the lower floor.

The builder designs homes above 1 mill, so I trust his 30 years experience and his P.E's that agreed with the 2 ton.

Your right in that SEER doesn't dictate capacity, it just delivers it at lower costs -- didn't think I worded the sentance like that.




Originally posted by dan sw fl
[QUOTE]Originally posted by emcoasthvacr
[B]I spoke with a GC today building a high-end 2 level home.

The 1st floor is 1800-2000 sf and I questioned him installing a 2.5 ton unit on the lower level
(2nd level will have a seperate unit).

He said that they will be downsizing to a 2 ton unit.
The house will have R-30 insulation.

All I'm saying is please be prudent when purchasing your new system -- the higher SEER rating might allow you to operate a smaller, thus more efficient unit.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tpa05
[B] The existing unit is 3.5 tons as are most of the homes in my subdivision.

Home size also matches mine as the average is between 1900 and 2100 sqft. Not sure if this is done as a rote exercise as these values match those detailed in all Zone 1 homes. I live in Florida.

[Edited by emcoasthvacr on 11-29-2006 at 07:09 PM]

[docholiday]

Originally posted by tpa05
As I've indicated in another post I'm purchasing a Goodman system and I'm not sure if the "system" is 15 seer or if it's just one of the components. If so, I'm again confused as I'm not sure if it's possible to have one component that's that high while the rest remains "within r22 range". Thanks guys and again, any help is appreciated.

The refrigerant plays a very, very small part of the higher efficiencies. The reason you dont see much R-22 in the ultra high efficiency stuff has more to do with economics. The manufacturers can no longer sell systems with R-22 in them come January 2010. It costs alot of money in research and development to develop a product so it makes little sense to develop one that will go away in a couple years. In most cases, they would never see a payback.

[emcoasthvacr]

All my air conditioning & heat pumps on my properties are R-22. I'm not a fan of R410a, but I quess I'll have to be sooner or later.

My main concern with R410a is not only the higher system pressures and subsequent component stress but also the higher costs of recovery, recycle, and reclaim that will accrue due to the varying vapor pressures of the R410a mixture.

I also don't understand why residential customers have to bear the burden when the commercial & industrial entities are allowed to spew out tons of CFC's legally each year.







Originally posted by docholiday

Originally posted by tpa05
As I've indicated in another post I'm purchasing a Goodman system and I'm not sure if the "system" is 15 seer or if it's just one of the components. If so, I'm again confused as I'm not sure if it's possible to have one component that's that high while the rest remains "within r22 range". Thanks guys and again, any help is appreciated.

The refrigerant plays a very, very small part of the higher efficiencies. The reason you dont see much R-22 in the ultra high efficiency stuff has more to do with economics. The manufacturers can no longer sell systems with R-22 in them come January 2010. It costs alot of money in research and development to develop a product so it makes little sense to develop one that will go away in a couple years. In most cases, they would never see a payback.

[Edited by emcoasthvacr on 11-29-2006 at 09:05 PM]

[torch man]

Again higer efficiency has nothing to do with capacity.

A 15 SEER 2 ton unit is 2 tons.

A 13 SEER 2 ton unit is 2 tons.

Torch Man

[docholiday]

Well, the refrigerant pressures dont cause leaks. A higher velocity could wear the copper, but R410A doesn't operate at a higher velocity. A higher pressure will simply leak out the same size hole faster. If R-22 were handled and rtreated like it should (like R410A is), you would have fewer failures in R22 systems too.

Generally speaking the R410A systems out there have fewer problems than the R-22 according to warranty data. No mfg will argue that. Granted, that can be because hacks generally wont touch R410A or higher efficiency systems. But the expansion valve alone, generally found in R410A systems and other high efficiency systems will reduce compressor failures considerably.

Recovery is recovery, shouldnt take any longer or cost more. you still have to pull a vacuum, Actually, the POE oil travels better in suspension in R410A than Mineral oil does in R-22.

As for the law, it is what it is...no one here caused this to happen. It's the old "it's hard to legislate against volcanos blowing and cows farting... so lets go after the easy prey" mentality.

[emcoasthvacr]

Sam,

I went back to double check the dimensions and not go with what a Sub had told me. The actual square footage on the lower floor is 1475(actual air conditioned space); with the porches it's 1875.