Opinions on these installation pics

[kelli_c]

Unfortunately, my contractor is not responding to my concerns about the furnace and air conditioner installed by his technicians.

Could you please let me know if you see any problems in these pics? Thanks!

1. This pic shows the hole they left in the exterior siding for one of the air conditioner lines. Also, there seems to be a cut or tear in the line:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8454/furnace4smkj0.jpg


2. The vent (?) circled in this image is only about 5 feet from the ground and gets extremely hot--is that normal/okay?
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8699/furnace3smki8.jpg



3. This shows the hole left in the furnace room ceiling:
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9365/img0135smallbo8.jpg



4. This shows the debris left in the filter area:
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/739/img0131smzl2.jpg



5. Here's a pic of the furnace:
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7409/furnace3smalltl6.jpg

[davefr]

1. Obvious that hole should have been sealed. It also looks like the refrigerant line just dangles it's way down to the condensor and is not secured vertically to the outside building wall. Is that thermostat wiring under the liquid line? Vibration will likely cause it to short out from chaffing over time. I wouldn't worry about that minor cut in the vapor line's insulation.

2. I won't comment on your "octopus" furnace duct system other then to say these runs should be insulated.

3. Nice celing hole!

5. Your contractor should have secured the refrigerant lines here to. That transition piece on the furnace looks like stainless steel but it looks like it's not sealed. Did he just screw it to the plenum?.

I think these belong in the hall of shame section. For reference look at the wall of fame images to see some professional installations.

P.S. Post some images of the condensor portion of the installation.

[Edited by davefr on 11-27-2006 at 06:50 PM]

[a\c don]

Did you shop around and take the low bid?

[kelli_c]

I got five bids. This guy was actually recommended to me, and his bid was in the middle. I thought he, the owner, would be the one doing the install, but he had two of his less experienced technicians do the install.

I don't know how to get through to the contractor. He will not acknowledge any problems.

[coolguysfl]

Just curious Kelli -

This bid - where did it stand in the line up? The most expensive, mid point or the least expensive?

Did you get any referrals?

Was any permit pulled or inspected?

Is fresh air for combustion provided?

Has your contractor ever looked into P-traps, might be a good idea.

Was anyone injured in this train wreck?

[davefr]

Originally posted by kelli_c
I don't know how to get through to the contractor. He will not acknowledge any problems.

Try your building inspector. (looks like code violations) If that doesn't work then contact your state's contractor licensing board.

If that doesn't work there's always small claims court. Was the contractor paid? Can you do a CC chargeback for any of the bill or if you wrote a check can you stop payment?

[too tall terry]

it looks like a robot :D playing twister :D:D

[Edited by too tall terry on 11-27-2006 at 07:08 PM]

[kelli_c]

Originally posted by davefr

Originally posted by kelli_c
I don't know how to get through to the contractor. He will not acknowledge any problems.

Try your building inspector. (looks like code violations) If that doesn't work then contact your state's contractor licensing board.

If that doesn't work there's always small claims court. Was the contractor paid? Can you do a CC chargeback for any of the bill or if you wrote a check can you stop payment?

Thanks for the suggestions. The building inspector has been no help at all. He literally spent two minutes at my home and didn't even look at the a/c. When I tried pointing out some of my concerns, he said he's seen worse and left. What a nightmare.

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by too tall terry
it looks like a robot :D

http://www.splitfocus.org/pics/lis-robot.jpg

Danger, Will Robinson... :D

[coolguysfl]

Major bummer -

See if your state has a dept of professional regulation or who lic. contractors... they might be able to make life uncomfortable for him if he's "abandoned" the job.

Send ONE certified letter to him sighting your exact issues & expectations and reasonable time line for remedy.

Get an attorney.

[too tall terry]

Originally posted by Wild Leg

Originally posted by too tall terry
it looks like a robot :D

http://www.splitfocus.org/pics/lis-robot.jpg

Danger, Will Robinson... :D lmao,i used to watch"Lost in Space" and Penny was hot!! :D:D:D

[r22jjc]

have someone fix the vent before someone gets hurt.looks like a ductwork y fitting in the vent,in which case the crimps will be backwards,could allow carbon monoxide into the building........safe bet that it is.

[mayguy]

-The metal exhaust pipe will be HOT. This is not a 90% furnace (PVC/Cooler)

-They should used thumbgum to fill in the hole

-Should of done a better job of pulling the a/c line. (No harm there just looks sore)

-Don't like the drain sharing the humidfifer. If it plugs up, it will back up into the a/c coil.

-Newer blower will move LOT more air, so you will get lot of dust/junk falling down into the filter area for a few days. Just take a shop vac and suck it out.

speaking of return, where is it?

Have you paid in full already?

[hvacr man]

that is one bad looking install. how far away from that single wall flue is the armaflex? in the pic it appears to be close to touching which is a fire hazard. Yes, holes thru ceiling and wall need to be sealed. get another company out there to get problems corrected if installer wont repair then take him to court

[kelli_c]

I really appreciate all of the feedback - thank you. Could you please help me with a few more questions...

To answer hvacr man's question about "how far away from that single wall flue is the armaflex?" The answer is 3 feet - is that adequate?

And yes, I have paid in full. I was told I had to pay the day the install was completed.

About the metal exhaust pipe being very hot, is it standard to have this only 5 ft above the floor? Seems dangerous given how hot it gets.

Mayguy asked where the return is? Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the return?

Also, do the problems you see in the pictures explain the very loud, rumbling sound the furnace makes? It's especially loud near the intake (?), which is in the hallway outside of my bedroom. Thank you.

[mayguy]

Return is where the air filter goes. Old days people called it "cold air return"

Return ductwork is where the air goes into the blower.

if you are worried about the hot pipe, i'd change it over to B-Vent pipe.

What model is this furnace? XV80 or XR80?

[Freezeking2000]

Originally posted by mayguy
Return is where the air filter goes. Old days people called it "cold air return"

Return ductwork is where the air goes into the blower.

if you are worried about the hot pipe, i'd change it over to B-Vent pipe.

What model is this furnace? XV80 or XR80?

For free?..what a guy!

[kewlguy1]

Its not pretty but with that existing ductwork seems like it will never look good. As for the line ask the guy to seal them. Not a big deal(15 Minutes work)

[eliteair]

Fix the fluepipe quick! needs to have some slope going up away from furnace.

[mayguy]

Originally posted by Freezeking2000

Originally posted by mayguy
Return is where the air filter goes. Old days people called it "cold air return"

Return ductwork is where the air goes into the blower.

if you are worried about the hot pipe, i'd change it over to B-Vent pipe.

What model is this furnace? XV80 or XR80?

For free?..what a guy!

LOL Where does it say "Free"?

[tinknocker service tech]

as far as the exsisting duct goes it is not worse then it has been for the how ever many years. It has worked and will continue to work even tho it looks like hell

the flue should be raised up a little more and strapped up so it cant fall or get knocked down.

the holes should be sealed and if you cant get the contractor back then go get a tube of chaulk and do it your self. Yes you paid him to do it and he should but he isnt

tell him you want the pipe suported properly and dont take no for an answer

5 ft off the floor in a is axceptable even tho i would like it a little higher but you arent going to gain to much more hight either way from those pictures

except for the exsisting ducts they didnt that bad of a job
imo

[mark beiser]

Interesting humidifier installation, looks like they left the horizontal drain pan in the coil.
I wonder if they at least cut a hole in the drain pan so the humidifier can work?
Would have been better to just remove the pan...

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by too tall terry
lmao,i used to watch"Lost in Space" and Penny was hot!! :D:D:D

http://www.angela-cartwright.com/ACLISgigi.jpg

Smokin'!

[tinknocker service tech]

mark
good catch i didnt see the drain holes for the pan

[kelli_c]

Originally posted by mark beiser
Interesting humidifier installation, looks like they left the horizontal drain pan in the coil.
I wonder if they at least cut a hole in the drain pan so the humidifier can work?
Would have been better to just remove the pan...

Good call, I actually found out today that the humidifier doesn't work.

[kelli_c]

Do the lines/wires in the back of the a/c look okay? Thanks!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1641/aircondgc0.jpg

[davefr]

Originally posted by kelli_c
Do the lines/wires in the back of the a/c look okay? Thanks!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1641/aircondgc0.jpg

No they don't. Unless I'm mistaken those blue things look like wire nuts splicing in the control wiring.

First of all splices should not be dangling outside the unit and secondly I don't see why they would need to use them if they planned the wiring correctly.

[timebuilder]

Okay, first the serious part.

You have both functional and cosmetic issues, and they should all me made "right."

In an effort to keep things simple, your attorney may want to start this process with a phone call to the contractor, and you should take the attorney’s advice on legal matters, not mine. YMMV.

The letter: have your attorney write it, and it should ask the contractor to contact the attorney, not you. Why? In this way, you have a knowledgeable and dispassionate third party speaking for you, one who negotiates for a living. You should not have direct conversations with the old contractor.

Ask your attorney to have another contractor review the work, and create a punch list of issues to be mentioned in the letter. Have the safety issues corrected by the new contractor, and pass those costs onto the delinquent company. Safety is the first importance. Since you already have "before" pictures, you should take some "after" pictures to show how safety concerns were corrected.

Your attorney should ask for remediation of all concerns remaining, and that work should be followed by a reinspection. You must give the first contractor an opportunity to make things right, because a small claims judge won’t like it if you don’t. The judge WILL understand the necessity of having the safety concerns fixed immediately. All legal costs should be borne by the first contractor, and he can either pay for the safety work and those costs or meet you in court. In my area, small claims go up to a limit of $2,000, so it might mean going to civil court if costs go beyond that.

When the first contractor is at your home, have someone beside you 100% of the time to hear everything that is said. It can even be your attorney or a small business ombudsman. The best scenario is not having a conversation with the contractor once you reach a point where your concerns are being ignored.

And on a less serious note, Penny WAS hot. Hard to believe that just a few years earlier she was playing Danny Thomas’ daughter Linda on “Make Room for Daddy” and Christine Staples on “Leave it to Beaver.”

Penny appears in some pictures here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058824/

What a cast: Timmy’s mom from “Lassie,” Guy Williams (“Zorro”) and Lorelei from “Beach Blanket Bingo.”

Great picture of the robot, too!!


[Edited by timebuilder on 11-28-2006 at 10:48 AM]

[davefr]

Timebuilder,
That's pretty good advise if the OP is at the end of the rope but you're pretty liberal in telling him to have a lawyer "do this" and "do that".

He's going to have $1000's of legal bills when all is said and done and they're not recoverable in small claims court and I doubt any lawyer would do this on a contingency basis.

Maybe the OP will chime in but I think there's more he can do on his own to get the contractor to the jobsite. (a letter from the lawyer might serve as a catalyst). Nothing in the images looks like a major labor expense to fix.

If all else fails I'd spring for the lawyer to only write the letter, hire someone to correct all the deficiencies and then take the contractor to small claims court.

[hvaclover]

Time builder,

The OP already stated that the the local inspector signed off on the job, there goes the safety aspect you mentioned.

Yeah there are somethings I don't like about the job either.

But to encourage an HO to use an attorney in this case is counterproductive---to his wallet.

Yeah, it'll cost more to pay an attorney then it would to have somebody come fix the "macahnis pau".

[timebuilder]

Without going into a lot of detail, the homeowner whose concerns are being ignored is perhaps the worst person to be speaking with the contractor. Why? Because the homeowner has made a good faith effort to get corrections, and nothing has happened. At that point, little is likely to happen without some additional “motivation.”

Most attorneys won’t charge much for a short sit-down, and that person knows the lay of the legal landscape in that area. That’s the main reason to take that advice over my suggestions. The attorney should identify a new contractor because it is someone with a proven track record and who works well with that attorney. The steps used to remediate this problem have a lot to do with the homeowner’s ability to recover costs.

An inspector (as in code person) signoff is not the be-all and end-all of safety concerns. Another person can easily dispute a poor endorsement like “I’ve seen worse.” Wow. I’d like to hear him explain that one. If another certified professional can identify problems not addressed buy the code inspector, then there is a potential to recover damages there, as well.

I’d start with the conversation, have safety deficiencies identified and corrected, and go from there. Recover costs of representation, and move on. That does not spell “thousands in legal bills.”

It’s just common sense.

[hvaclover]

Ok Timebuilder,
Name what is unsafe about the install. Specifically, tell me about the flue connector.

And if you don't think that the local authorities won't stand behind their man, you are dead wrong.

So tell me about the install. Forget the cosmetic and give me the meat of the issue.

[johnl]

That flue pipe install is well...........all out horrifying. I dont know about code requiremenst where you are but up here in the great white wasteland you are allowed no more than 180 degrees of turn in the vent. Between the excessive turns and the lack of slope that is a carbon monixide case waiting to happen. Again not sure what your codes and inspections consist of there, but here the local gas company does all gas inspections, assuming it is the same case where you are that is where i would start. Call the gas company in to look at it and ask them where you go from there. There is not a snowballs chance that would pass here.

[hvaclover]

Johnl, howdy,

Look at the back of that furnace. If it were turned to face opposite I don't think there would have been clearance to work on it. Can't tell for sure but looks that way.

Kelli_c, could you post more full length pics of the back and front?

[davefr]

Timebuilder said,
"Recover costs of representation, and move on. That does not spell thousands in legal bills."

If the contractor doesn't cough up these "costs of representation" voluntarily then the only mechanism for the OP is civil court. And legal representaion in civil court ain't cheap.

I think the OP will be "spending good money after bad". However it's his choice and you clearly spelled out one strategy for him.

Hvaclover,
"macahnis pau"?? Gee I'm impressed!! Still knawing on turkey bones or are they now "de minimus"??

[johnl]

Also the water tank vent tying into the bottom of the common vent is a huge no no. Any debris in the line will eventually bock the water heater venting. As HVAClover said, the rest really is cosmetic and although very poor workmanship it is not a safety issue.

[johnl]

Gday hvaclover, i see what you mean, here we would have no choice but to relocate either the furnace ot the vertical chimney. (in that case we would just go with a PVC vent furnace) Like i said up here is it the gas company that does all inspections and they are quite anal when it comes to issues with venting.

[hvaclover]

My point Johnl,

I think the guy could have neatened up the job, no doubt.

I think there probably was no clearance to run the Wye horizontally.

Coming in from the bottom of the Wye is not something I would do, but I have seen it done on very tight jobs and the inspector made a judgement call on whether service clearance was more important.

I am not saying this looks good.

In my area it would be allowed, if the inspector was notified in advance of the tight working conditions and there was sufficient draft at water heater. The big difference being the connector would have to be B-vent. Same for the wye and the connection to the chimney liner.

[timebuilder]

I recommended the independent inspection to DETERMINE if there are safety concerns. It APPEARS there are functional and cosmetic issues. Without being there, it is impossible for me to say for sure, just as it is impossible for any of us to say there is a good, safe install. That’s why I’m suggesting that someone have a look at it. The homeowner does not have a lot of confidence about this job, and based on what little I’ve seen, neither do I. One can nearly always have an accurate expectation of quality, and yes, sometimes safety, based on appearance and workmanship.

A municipality could “stand behind” their inspector just long enough to kick him to the curb. I've seen it happen. What we don’t know is the latitude provided by code in that area. Without a doubt, it is sad indeed for a civil inspector to say “I’ve seen worse.” Pretty unprofessional, and that brings his judgment into question.

So no, I’m not about to get into a pi**ing match over some pictures on a website. I’m going to defer to a set of steps that are recommended by an attorney, and only because it appears that the homeowner has not gotten the response needed from the contractor. If the contractor won’t come out and see the concerns, how much concern does he have for the homeowner’s safety?

Sometimes, one must regrettably go to civil court to recover damages. That’s just a fact of life. The homeowner has asked for help from the contractor, and has gotten nowhere. His choices are to either accept the work as-is, pay more to have the installation checked and corrected where necessary, or seek to have the shortcomings made right beyond saying “please.”

A visit to court would cost the contractor time and money as well, so he may be motivated to settle before spending money on his own defense, and in fear of covering the homeowner’s costs, as well.

If that contractor were to ask me for advice, I’d say he should offer to correct any poor workmanship, pay for any safety remediation work recommended by the independent inspector and the attorney visit (which were brought on by his workers and his response to the homeowner concerns) and use this experience to retrain or replace his installers. That’s a part of his cost of doing business.

Now, most of us would have responded within days to the call from the homeowner, would not have liked what we found, and would have immediately apologized and made it right within 24 hours. That would have saved a great deal of time and trouble.

That’s just good business practice. Something tells me the contractor won’t take the easy, less costly route.


[Edited by timebuilder on 11-28-2006 at 12:52 PM]

[kelli_c]

Thank you all so much! I've been really stressed over this, so thank you for the advice and support.

Unfortunately, I live in a small town where the HVAC contractors and inspectors know each other and are reluctant to evaluate each other's work. For example:

Last week I hired someone to inspect the furnace. He took pictures and said he would mail me the report. I guess I shouldn't have told him who did the job, because as soon as he found out he said he "lost" his camera's memory card, and I haven't been able to reach him.

I spoke with an attorney today who said in order for him to write a letter, he would need a thorough inspection report. Can anyone recommend how I should go about finding a reputable inspector? Thanks

-Kel

[hvaclover]

Kelli_c

Was this a city inspector or an independent person?

[timebuilder]

Home inspectors are listed in your local directory.

If you are having trouble finding an inspector, contact a real estate broker. Inspectors are used in almost all residential resale transactions. Specify the area of concern, as many inspectors are "retired," and from specific areas of construction expertise.

If you are having a local political dynamic problem, you may wish to go outside your local community to an inspector or contractor who is not one of the good'ol boys.

[kelli_c]

Originally posted by hvaclover
Kelli_c

Was this a city inspector or an independent person?

He's an independent "inspector" who was referred to me.

The city inspector was completely useless. Like I posted earlier, his "inspection" lasted two minutes and he was gone.

[hvaclover]

If you aren't satisfied with the inspector's call it would be advisable to to go to his boss.

Realistically, the inspector has the obligation of ensuring a minimum level of safety. In other words if the install passes by the skin of it's teeth it makes the grade.

Cosmetic stuff is not really his job.

When he said he's seen worse I can believe it.

That's tame compared to some of the botches I've seen in the field.


But if you want to get some action on this then talk to your building officials and stress that you want a neater outcome on the install.

Again, if you post more pics of the front and the back in full length, then the safety issues can be more fully analyzed from here and we might be able to give you more ammunition to fight back with.

Good luck to you kelli

[timebuilder]

In some areas, part of what determines a contractor's
license status is the requirement that his service be performed in a "workmanlike" manner. Clearly, even from a few photos, that idea is in jeopardy.

Get your own inspector, and take it from there. Then, you'll have something to show your attorney besides your
pictures, OR, you will put your mind at ease.

[hvaclover]

Time builder,

I don't believe you can speak to the realities of this business.

"Workman like" is subjective and depends what a particular
municipality is willing to allow within it's borders.

The jobs go from clinkers to shiners depending on the neighborhood and an HOs budget.

I think everybody would like to bury that one job they did when times were tough and they cut corners to make a working wage instead of a profit.

You don't post as an HVAC guy, only that you are a "Technical Wizard". I don't think anybody takes you very serious though.

If you are a tech then modify your profile to read as such, otherwise please don't post half-baked responses based on something you got out of a book.

Even the devil can quote scripture.

Peace.

[tinknocker service tech]

Originally posted by davefr

Originally posted by kelli_c
Do the lines/wires in the back of the a/c look okay? Thanks!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1641/aircondgc0.jpg

No they don't. Unless I'm mistaken those blue things look like wire nuts splicing in the control wiring.

First of all splices should not be dangling outside the unit and secondly I don't see why they would need to use them if they planned the wiring correctly.

wire nuts are the only way to connec t the low voltage on most ac units.
there are two wires coming out from the factorie and you connect the to the low voltage wire with two wire nuts

i do agree they should be tucked up inside the unit but hanging like that is seen all the time
seems to me some arent sure of what they are talking about and are trying to flame some here

i have to ask what is it you want the guy to do. You talked to an atturney and got no where but why

if you think that job could be made to look better with what is in those pictures i think not

they installed a furnace and reused the ducts that were there since forever. If you wanted a completely redone system then that is what you should have asked for and gotten prices for. The holes should be sealed and the flue should be strapped up better. after that you have what you had before but with a new furnace.

if you want you can call someone else to go the couple thing you want done and pay for and then send him the bill

what is ritten in the contract you should have signed before you had the job done

The job looks like **** but it has looked like **** since forever. Want it to look great get your wallet out and be will to pay.....

[kelli_c]

Hvaclover: The reality is that several people have noted that there are safety issues involved in the install. Doing a messy install is one thing, but putting someone's life in danger by taking "short cuts" is quite another and is inexcusable.

Timebuilder's responses have been very helpful, well written, and sensible. I'm not sure why you chose to attack him. I certainly wouldn't call his responses "half-baked." However, what I woudld call "half-baked" is your attempt to justify an obviously flawed and potentially hazardous install.

[hvaclover]

Hey tinknocker,

Happy hour?:D

[davefr]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech

Originally posted by davefr
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kelli_c
[B]Do the lines/wires in the back of the a/c look okay? Thanks!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1641/aircondgc0.jpg

i do agree they should be tucked up inside the unit but hanging like that is seen all the time
seems to me some arent sure of what they are talking about and are trying to flame some here



I intend no flames. I just see a scenario unfolding where rain could run down the side of that unit and fall right into the open part of the wire nuts and corrode the connection.

[kelli_c]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech

wire nuts are the only way to connec t the low voltage on most ac units.
there are two wires coming out from the factorie and you connect the to the low voltage wire with two wire nuts

i do agree they should be tucked up inside the unit but hanging like that is seen all the time
seems to me some arent sure of what they are talking about and are trying to flame some here

i have to ask what is it you want the guy to do. You talked to an atturney and got no where but why

if you think that job could be made to look better with what is in those pictures i think not

they installed a furnace and reused the ducts that were there since forever. If you wanted a completely redone system then that is what you should have asked for and gotten prices for. The holes should be sealed and the flue should be strapped up better. after that you have what you had before but with a new furnace.

if you want you can call someone else to go the couple thing you want done and pay for and then send him the bill

what is ritten in the contract you should have signed before you had the job done

The job looks like **** but it has looked like **** since forever. Want it to look great get your wallet out and be will to pay.....

Let me reiterate: there are safety issues involved with this install. I didn't ask for a, to use your words, "completely redone system." I expected and paid for the furnace, humidifier, and air conditioner to function correctly and be installed properly and safely.

I do not know if the contractors/installers are merely unskilled or ethically deficient or both... The fact remains that the job was done incorrectly and thus they have created a potentially hazardous situation in my home. That is unacceptable and frankly reprehensible.

[4l530]

Originally posted by kelli_c
Let me reiterate: there are safety issues involved with this install.

thus they have created a potentially hazardous situation in my home. http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7409/furnace3smalltl6.jpg


Maybe I'm a fool...
What is it that's so hazardous, now??

OK. The flue could've been done a little better...but there's not much to work with there in regards to the ductopus. The OP has stated the armaflex is not touching the flue. It ain't the greatest flue but I think 'hazardous' is just a bit of a stretch. Unless they didn't hook it up above the ductopus where I can't see it.

[Edited by 4l530 on 11-28-2006 at 08:37 PM]

[zipscrew]

why would these need to be insulated?

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by kelli_c

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech

wire nuts are the only way to connec t the low voltage on most ac units.
there are two wires coming out from the factorie and you connect the to the low voltage wire with two wire nuts

i do agree they should be tucked up inside the unit but hanging like that is seen all the time
seems to me some arent sure of what they are talking about and are trying to flame some here

i have to ask what is it you want the guy to do. You talked to an atturney and got no where but why

if you think that job could be made to look better with what is in those pictures i think not

they installed a furnace and reused the ducts that were there since forever. If you wanted a completely redone system then that is what you should have asked for and gotten prices for. The holes should be sealed and the flue should be strapped up better. after that you have what you had before but with a new furnace.

if you want you can call someone else to go the couple thing you want done and pay for and then send him the bill

what is ritten in the contract you should have signed before you had the job done

The job looks like **** but it has looked like **** since forever. Want it to look great get your wallet out and be will to pay.....

Let me reiterate: there are safety issues involved with this install. I didn't ask for a, to use your words, "completely redone system." I expected and paid for the furnace, humidifier, and air conditioner to function correctly and be installed properly and safely.

I do not know if the contractors/installers are merely unskilled or ethically deficient or both... The fact remains that the job was done incorrectly and thus they have created a potentially hazardous situation in my home. That is unacceptable and frankly reprehensible.

Kelli

You are free to take what ever path you choose over your install.

I'm of the opinion that timebuilder is saying what you want to hear.

That is why I asked to post more pics.

I wanted to see the rest of the furnace as pertains to gas connection and electrical and cold air return.

From the angle I see in the picture, there seems to be some raise in the flue connector. But from the angle you took the pics I can't tell for sure.

What I am trying to get accross to you is that you don't need to get an attorney or get another inspector.

You have only to conntact the the authorities above the city inspector who looked at your furnace and voice your concerns. They will respond.



And just so we are on the same page, what does not work properly (from your above reply to tinknocker) of all the
equipment installed?

Did your written agreement include redoing the duct work?



[Edited by hvaclover on 11-28-2006 at 08:44 PM]

[tinknocker service tech]

kelly
i have looked at those pictures many times and i dont see any saftey issues at all
is see a lot of posted with unwarrented accusations

there are isues and when you first posted them i agreed with you they should be rectified.

the flue is five foot above the ground that is exceptable
i would prfer it to be a little higher but prefer doesnt mean unsafe

imo it should be strapped again prefer no unsafe
power induced so chances are if as stated by someone it were to back draft the pressure switch would trip out and no fumes. this is a worse case senario

the t=y as was stated as be improper
lennox in thier instruction manual states on all thier 80 plus
water heater and furnace should have a t=y
water heater into the straight through and furnace into the y from the bottom

in this case the furnace is in the straigh and water heater in the y from the bottom. Is this what the maker of the unit wants i dont know but it is still exceptable.

the humidifier should be checked and the holes filled
saftey isnt an isue imo

you stated the unit was INSPECTED and even thro you didnt like the inspector if there were any saftey issues he would have failed the inspection no matter how he feels about your contractor. AS ha said he has seen worst and believe me so have i. It is a shame you have always had such a nasty job all these years

imo all you have here is a case of stipidity on the part of the contractor for not responding to your concerns
the rest is just accusation and insuando

the wire nuts hanging from the botton of the condenser if that is the unit i think it is there is no way to run them inside they are run out side by the maker and there is no hole to tuck them in. If it is the one i am thinking it is i drill a hole and put a romex connector in to put the wires inside the unit

the contractor is an idiot for ignoring you over ten min work but imo this whole tread has just gone way over the cliff on saftey
inspectors do thier jobs even if we dont like the way they do it

[desto1]

i also agree the contractor should seal the penetrations from the line set and the flue pipe should have more pitch upward,mabey rework the wye the best you can considering the ductopus that surrounds the existing flue,but as far as there being saftey concerns that the h.o is in danger,i beleive are blown out of proportion.i would like to have seen the old system in comparison to this new install.i would almost bet that the new install is much more safer than the old system that it replaced.any one who has done aor work hands on,would have to agree that this home,considering the lay out in the pictures,would be a bit of a challenge to make cosmetically perfect.and by the way,that duct work is in a conditioned space,it does'nt need to be insulated

[Freezeking2000]

This is a joke!
Just seal the hole and stop!

[hvaclover]

See what happens when you try to help.

Got timebuilder stoking the flames egging poor kelli on.

For something so small, davidfr and timebuilder were sure throwing out some heavy duty solution that just plain over kill.

Kelli, timebuilder is not a pro and neither is davidfr, they are just trolls that haunt this site trying to impress hapless people with their pseudo-wisdom.

Your problem aint that big!

Stop wringing your hands and just call a guy to neaten up the blemishes.

As for as the flue connector, POST SOME PICS FROM STRAIGHT ON SO WE CAN SEE THE TRUE CODITION. If there is a quarter inch of rise per foot then it's legit.

Needs straps to secure it.

Get on with it.

I love drama, don't you?:rolleyes:

[davefr]

Originally posted by hvaclover
See what happens when you try to help.

Got timebuilder stoking the flames egging poor kelli on.

For something so small, davidfr and timebuilder were sure throwing out some heavy duty solution that just plain over kill.

Kelli, timebuilder is not a pro and neither is davidfr, they are just trolls that haunt this site trying to impress hapless people with their pseudo-wisdom.

Your problem aint that big!

Stop wringing your hands and just call a guy to neaten up the blemishes.

As for as the flue connector, POST SOME PICS FROM STRAIGHT ON SO WE CAN SEE THE TRUE CODITION. If there is a quarter inch of rise per foot then it's legit.

Needs straps to secure it.

Get on with it.

I love drama, don't you?:rolleyes:

Hvaclover,
Perhaps you didn't read my responses. They are hardly "heavy duty" as I tried to disuade the OP from going off the deep end with lwayers. No I'm not a HVAC professional but I do know good work from bad work!!

What I said:

"I think the OP will be "spending good money after bad". However it's his choice and you clearly spelled out one strategy for him".

And my second advice:

"Maybe the OP will chime in but I think there's more he can do on his own to get the contractor to the jobsite. (a letter from the lawyer might serve as a catalyst). Nothing in the images looks like a major labor expense to fix."

[hvaclover]

Daidfr,

Stop being pretentious.
Not a day in the field and you come here advising as if you hold a license.

When you've repaired over sixty thousand furnaces and A/Cs-

When you've taken the risk of business ownership-

When you've saved lives by rushing them out of a monoxide filled home-

When you've gone into a crummy neighborhood on a late call and had to fight your way out swinging a wrench-

When you've accumulated all the science and law knowledge and instinct that the veterans of the HVAC industry have here-

Until then, you are just a guy with a little knowledge.

And a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

Pretenders.

How dare you think of yourself as on par with the people of this industry?

The only thing you have accomplished along with "time bandit" is to stir up some poor HO that had a minor problem who now believes her intsall will implode.

Go haunt "my space", will 'ya?

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
the wire nuts hanging from the botton of the condenser if that is the unit i think it is there is no way to run them inside they are run out side by the maker and there is no hole to tuck them in. If it is the one i am thinking it is i drill a hole and put a romex connector in to put the wires inside the unit

Actually the wires are run out through a 1/2" knockout, its the same way on all AS/Trane outdoor units. I always pull them back up into the controls compartment and run the control wire up into the control compartment to make all my connections. I run the control wire in 1/2" sealtight between the wall and the unit and connect the sealtight to the unit with a 90º sealtight fitting at one of the 3 holes Trane gives us to do so.
Just leaving the wires out like that with wire nuts is against code in many areas, that control wiring isn't even UV rated.

The whole thing is ultra sloppy.

[davefr]

Originally posted by hvaclover
Daidfr,

Stop being pretentious.
Not a day in the field and you come here advising as if you hold a license.

When you've repaired over sixty thousand furnaces and A/Cs-

When you've taken the risk of business ownership-

When you've saved lives by rushing them out of a monoxide filled home-

When you've gone into a crummy neighborhood on a late call and had to fight your way out swinging a wrench-

When you've accumulated all the science and law knowledge and instinct that the veterans of the HVAC industry have here-

Until then, you are just a guy with a little knowledge.

And a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

Pretenders.

How dare you think of yourself as on par with the people of this industry?

The only thing you have accomplished along with "time bandit" is to stir up some poor HO that had a minor problem who now believes her intsall will implode.

Go haunt "my space", will 'ya?

I never said I was on par with the pros. I never made recommendations on the flue issue since that's something I know little about.

However I've seen the first hand effects of inner wall rot/termite damage and OP's image #1 is far from a mere cosmetic issue. (if you guys chalk this up as "cosmetic" then I say it's you all that have little knowledge beyond your area of expertise). His inner wall will be rotted out in no time if this wall faces rainy weather and this can cost him thousands!!

I've also had plenty of experience making unwilling companies pay up or fix problems without incurring major legal expenses and I tried to share some suggestions.

Have a good day in the field, hvaclover!!







[Edited by davefr on 11-29-2006 at 10:05 AM]

[hvaclover]

Yeah, I would not let those low vlotage wires hang either.

Simple matter to put them back insde.

[timebuilder]

Originally posted by hvaclover
Daidfr,

Stop being pretentious.
Not a day in the field and you come here advising as if you hold a license.

When you've repaired over sixty thousand furnaces and A/Cs-

When you've taken the risk of business ownership-

When you've saved lives by rushing them out of a monoxide filled home-

When you've gone into a crummy neighborhood on a late call and had to fight your way out swinging a wrench-

When you've accumulated all the science and law knowledge and instinct that the veterans of the HVAC industry have here-

Until then, you are just a guy with a little knowledge.

And a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

Pretenders.

How dare you think of yourself as on par with the people of this industry?

The only thing you have accomplished along with "time bandit" is to stir up some poor HO that had a minor problem who now believes her intsall will implode.

Go haunt "my space", will 'ya?

That's pretty arrogant. Most people would be embarrassed to act like that on a public forum. Makes me wonder about the poster's self-image.

What is clear here?

Kelli has some concerns about a job that reeks of poor workmanship. In order to put his mind at ease, he needs an inspection from a qualified person who knows the local requirements and has "boots on the ground." Every manufacturer will tell you that local code will trump their "permitted" design recommendations for installation, every time. They also expect their equipment to be installed in a workmanlike manner.

No one here can look at some pictures and say yea or nay to these customer concerns, or tell a consumer that they are not valid. Poor workmanship suggestes a host of shortfalls, and that is too uncomfortable for any homeowner.

I beleive that contractors that perform poor work should be forced, if necessary, to make it right. Who here thinks that bad workmanship is an acceptable standard for their business?

Any hands going up? Didn't think so.

As for the forum, I don't think the intention is to provide a platform for self-aggrandizement over the number of installs, people saved from CO poisoning, or pronouncements over which website one should post upon. (I've saved a life myself, and years ago I lost two friends to CO while parked in their RV, so I am thankful that lives were saved).

No, the purpose, as nearly as I can surmise it, is to give some valid advice to those seeking answers. What seems cosmetic can indeed lead to future problems. There is a reason that duxseal is used where the pipes pass through.

Recommending a second inspection to a concerneed homeowner is just such a case of valid advice. If work needs to be corrected on a new install, that work, or its costs, should be covered by the installing company.

Valid advice. Hold the arrogance. Help others.

That will serve the forum participants very well.

[Edited by timebuilder on 11-29-2006 at 10:29 AM]

[timebuilder]

Originally posted by hvaclover
See what happens when you try to help.

Got timebuilder stoking the flames egging poor kelli on.

For something so small, davidfr and timebuilder were sure throwing out some heavy duty solution that just plain over kill.

Kelli, timebuilder is not a pro and neither is davidfr, they are just trolls that haunt this site trying to impress hapless people with their pseudo-wisdom.

(snip)
I love drama, don't you?:rolleyes:

I don't know if you know david, but I am CERTAIN that you don't know me, my qualifications, or my supporting experiences. I recommend you sit down and have some quiet time of self-examination.

Trolls? Pseudo-wisdom?

Grow up, my friend.

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by timebuilder

Originally posted by hvaclover
Daidfr,

Stop being pretentious.
Not a day in the field and you come here advising as if you hold a license.

When you've repaired over sixty thousand furnaces and A/Cs-

When you've taken the risk of business ownership-

When you've saved lives by rushing them out of a monoxide filled home-

When you've gone into a crummy neighborhood on a late call and had to fight your way out swinging a wrench-

When you've accumulated all the science and law knowledge and instinct that the veterans of the HVAC industry have here-

Until then, you are just a guy with a little knowledge.

And a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

Pretenders.

How dare you think of yourself as on par with the people of this industry?

The only thing you have accomplished along with "time bandit" is to stir up some poor HO that had a minor problem who now believes her intsall will implode.

Go haunt "my space", will 'ya?

That's pretty arrogant. Most people would be embarrassed to act like that on a public forum. Makes me wonder about the poster's self-image.

What is clear here?

." Every manufacturer will tell you that local code will trump their "permitted" design recommendations for installation, every time. They also expect their equipment to be installed in a workmanlike manner.

No one here can look at some pictures and say yea or nay to these customer concerns, or tell a consumer that they are not valid. Poor workmanship suggestes a host of shortfalls, and that is too uncomfortable for any homeowner.

I beleive that contractors that perform poor work should be forced, if necessary, to make it right. Who here thinks that bad workmanship is an acceptable standard for their business?

Any hands going up? Didn't think so.

As for the forum, I don't think the intention is to provide a platform for self-aggrandizement over the number of installs, people saved from CO poisoning, or pronouncements over which website one should post upon. (I've saved a life myself, and years ago I lost two friends to CO while parked in their RV, so I am thankful that lives were saved).

No, the purpose, as nearly as I can surmise it, is to give some valid advice to those seeking answers. What seems cosmetic can indeed lead to future problems. There is a reason that duxseal is used where the pipes pass through.

Recommending a second inspection to a concerneed homeowner is just such a case of valid advice. If work needs to be corrected on a new install, that work, or its costs, should be covered by the installing company.

Valid advice. Hold the arrogance. Help others.

That will serve the forum participants very well.

[Edited by timebuilder on 11-29-2006 at 10:29 AM]

[hvaclover]

when you wer
Originally posted by timebuilder
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hvaclover
[B]Daidfr,

Stop being pretentious.
Not a day in the field and you come here advising as if you hold a license.

When you've repaired over sixty thousand furnaces and A/Cs-

When you've taken the risk of business ownership-

When you've saved lives by rushing them out of a monoxide filled home-

When you've gone into a crummy neighborhood on a late call and had to fight your way out swinging a wrench-

When you've accumulated all the science and law knowledge and instinct that the veterans of the HVAC industry have here-

Until then, you are just a guy with a little knowledge.

And a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

Pretenders.

How dare you think of yourself as on par with the people of this industry?

The only thing you have accomplished along with "time bandit" is to stir up some poor HO that had a minor problem who now believes her install will implode.

Go haunt "my space", will 'ya?

That's pretty arrogant. Most people would be embarrassed to act like that on a public forum. Makes me wonder about the poster's self-image.

What is clear here?

." Every manufacturer will tell you that local code will trump their "permitted" design recommendations for installation, every time. They also expect their equipment to be installed in a workmanlike manner.

No one here can look at some pictures and say yea or nay to these customer concerns, or tell a consumer that they are not valid. Poor workmanship suggestes a host of shortfalls, and that is too uncomfortable for any homeowner.

I beleive that contractors that perform poor work should be forced, if necessary, to make it right. Who here thinks that bad workmanship is an acceptable standard for their business?

Any hands going up? Didn't think so.

As for the forum, I don't think the intention is to provide a platform for self-aggrandizement over the number of installs, people saved from CO poisoning, or pronouncements over which website one should post upon. (I've saved a life myself, and years ago I lost two friends to CO while parked in their RV, so I am thankful that lives were saved).

No, the purpose, as nearly as I can surmise it, is to give some valid advice to those seeking answers. What seems cosmetic can indeed lead to future problems. There is a reason that duxseal is used where the pipes pass through.

Recommending a second inspection to a concerneed homeowner is just such a case of valid advice. If work needs to be corrected on a new install, that work, or its costs, should be covered by the installing company.

Valid advice. Hold the arrogance. Help others.

That will serve the forum participants very well.

[Edited by hvaclover on 11-29-2006 at 02:34 PM]

[hvaclover]

Time bandit

Arrogant?

Yeah, I have the confidnce to grow a busines in an already saturated market.

But how about what you said?

Grow up.

You keep comng back for more.

Love 'ya though!:D

Reel em in boys :cool:

[Edited by hvaclover on 11-29-2006 at 02:43 PM]

[hvaclover]

Dear Time bandit,

I would kindly like to know why you post erroneous information concerning inspection regulations.

Big difference between RECCOMEND and REQUIREMENT.

A requirement in the install manual is an imperative that a local municipality may not abridge or disallow as it would cause revocation from the certifying lab that tested and approved the design.

A recommendation in the the install manual is a suggestion on a particular phase of the installation that may be accepted or disapproved by the authority having jurisdiction according to local regs.

I mean no disrespect when I say your field experience reflects in your less than substantial post.

Why are you insisting that an HVAC job proficiency is not punctuated by time on the job?

Would I not be remiss in the accuracy of my advisement to clients if I hadn't accumulated enough change-outs of equipment over the span of my involvement with HVAC?

[Edited by hvaclover on 11-29-2006 at 04:14 PM]

[hvaclover]

Dear time bandit,

Please do not "dis" this profession any longer.

Further appreciation would heart-felt if you would stop posing as a tech and fussing like a new born because nobody would spoon feed tech info on your oil furnace (see post Honeywell Control).

To what end do you post, "The pictures don't reveal enough to a consumer or a tech the safety deficiencies and quality of workmanship..." (paraphrased) ect.

That being said, if the evedentiary clarity of fact is absent from the photos, why are you counseling Kelli in out right "strong-arm" tactics for what is an obvious budget install?

You are a self admitted "inquistor" of what you construe as "bad companies", and you make them "pay up" for perceived misdeeds against you.

My curiosity flows to "why consul" when you have no intention of accepting the responsibility if the outcome is less than fortuitous?

You will hide behind your screen name and your self proclaimed title, "Tech Wizard" if anything goes awry, just like a maiden avoiding the wedding bed.

But I love 'ya bro.

[jrbenny]

Don't care who started it.

Enough of the barbs.

Two pages of attempts to discredit each other.

Enough is enough.

[too tall terry]

Originally posted by jrbenny
Don't care who started it.

Enough of the barbs.

Two pages of attempts to discredit each other.

Enough is enough. firm but fair......love you too, brother :D

[hvaclover]

Sorry jr.
Lost my cool

[Special Ed]

how Trane-only A/C contractors install systems!

[tinknocker service tech]

kelly just wondering have you heard anything from the contractor

[kelli_c]

I just want to thank all of you for taking time to respond. The keen observations and thoughtful suggestions are much appreciated. It is apparent from the responses that most of you are conscientious, scrupulous professionals who take pride in their work and conduct it with integrity. It is disturbing and shameful that this undeniably bungled, sloppy, and risky installation is met with indifference and apathy on the part of the contractor. Appalling.

I’ve received many helpful suggestions, and I’m considering all of my options. Thanks again, and I’ll keep you updated.

[hvaclover]

Where's the full length pics?

[dw1]

Originally posted by kelli_c
I just want to thank all of you for taking time to respond. The keen observations and thoughtful suggestions are much appreciated. It is apparent from the responses that most of you are conscientious, scrupulous professionals who take pride in their work and conduct it with integrity. It is disturbing and shameful that this undeniably bungled, sloppy, and risky installation is met with indifference and apathy on the part of the contractor. Appalling.

I’ve received many helpful suggestions, and I’m considering all of my options. Thanks again, and I’ll keep you updated.

Kelli, IMHO you have allowed some of these non-contractors to cloud your thinking.
I've seen cleaner installations but this is far, far away from a disaster. After 40 years as a contractor I've seen them all. Are there items that could have been done differently? Absolutely, but that's generally true of any installation.
I see nothing that is truly frightening or dangerous.
I'm disappointed that your contractor has not contacted you to go over a punch list. Most of the items are minor and could be corrected in a couple hours.
Since the contractor won't return your phone calls try writing a letter. From my side of the fence I'd try and be somewhat pleasant and ask him to contact you to arrange to correct some minor items to complete the job. Honey seems to work a little better than vinegar.
Contacting a lawyer over a couple hundred dollars is a waste of the lawyers time. Doubt he will even talk to you on this unless you have a professional written opinion from a licenced professional in the HVAC field. In a small town good luck with that.
Hope you can work out these problems with your contractor.

[hvaclover]

Welcome aboard, dw1,

For a first time post on this forum your message is succinct.

There have been way too many cage rattlers thru this thread. Indeed there is little to be concerned about with this install. Certainly, as you pointed out, a few dollars out of pocket is better than a belly full of grief.

Well meaning non-contractors have indeed been stirring the pot like some nafarious witche's brew.

It' just sad that the otcome was not what they intended.

Again, welcome aborad and enjoy.

[Edited by hvaclover on 11-30-2006 at 12:22 PM]

[mayguy]

I agree with dw1's post.

That's why I only posted a couple of things.

-Thumbgum

-Another line on it's own for the humidifer drain


Lot of dirt will move with the new blower, take a shop vac and suck up the debree, and change the air filter sooner.

[timebuilder]

Originally posted by hvaclover
Dear time bandit,

Please do not "dis" this profession any longer.

Further appreciation would heart-felt if you would stop posing as a tech and fussing like a new born because nobody would spoon feed tech info on your oil furnace (see post Honeywell Control).

To what end do you post, "The pictures don't reveal enough to a consumer or a tech the safety deficiencies and quality of workmanship..." (paraphrased) ect.

That being said, if the evedentiary clarity of fact is absent from the photos, why are you counseling Kelli in out right "strong-arm" tactics for what is an obvious budget install?

You are a self admitted "inquistor" of what you construe as "bad companies", and you make them "pay up" for perceived misdeeds against you.

My curiosity flows to "why consul" when you have no intention of accepting the responsibility if the outcome is less than fortuitous?

You will hide behind your screen name and your self proclaimed title, "Tech Wizard" if anything goes awry, just like a maiden avoiding the wedding bed.

But I love 'ya bro.



I have not "dissed" this profession at ANY time, nor have I altered your user name to insult you. I, on the other hand, am not a "time bandit," nor am I your "bro." We don't know each other well enough for that level of camaraderie, and in fact, your condescending hostility makes it even less appropriate.

And no, I don't need to explain how I know what I do about legal rights, about why I have a knowlege of contracts and standards of performance, or why I jokingly used the term "tech wizard," hidden in my profile. You comment about my "hiding" is laughable. If I enjoy my privacy, it's because of the crackpots allowed to wander the streets.

So, young man, who are you, to ask? Are you somebody special? Do you always behave like this? For some unkown reason, it's either all about you or all about someone who irritates you.

In fact, it's supposed to be "about" sharing helpful information. I'm not interested in what you have in a profile, so I can't fathom why you'd be checking mine. You could be Dave Lennox for all I care.

As I made clear in the post you referenced above, the furnace in question is not mine.

All I wanted from that post was an idea about the failure rate of the part in question, based on what seemed to be a heater manufacturer's recommending its replacment as a part of a diagnostic flowchart. I have replaced the same model primary on other furnaces before, but I wanted to ask the question just as someone like kelli might have done, and the pedantic reactions of some posters (may I include you in that group?) said much more about the defensive and arrogant attitudes of some professionals here than I might have ever imagined. Even on my very best days, I am always mindful of the source of anything good I can do. Left to my own devces I would be nothing, and were it not for grace, I would be lost. Isaiah 64:6.

Last week, follow-up testing revealed that the primary was indeed breaking down (specifically the relay contact that feeds the orange output wire was burned to a crisp) so yes, you may revisit that post, as well. The customer is quite pleased with the new primary. Beckett Additives is sending me a can of Ultra Guard to treat the tank on a return trip. An second examination of the filter element I replaced shows very little sludge has been disloged from the tank, and the suspended particles will be treated by the Ultra Guard.

When you show respect to others, you bring respect to yourself. It doesn't mean you can't have fun, but there are many posters here who have not posted credentials (and I can see why) and some participants may have a negative impression of self-appointed firebrands, where all that is wanted by most posters is a little help, and answers to specific questions. Look at the body of work of Dale Carnegie.


Once again, you know nothing of me. I have done a lot of heating and a/c work, and been well compensated for it, thank you. I give Him all of the glory.

If the spirit moves me to change my membership status here, I will. If not, I won't. Frankly, I have been less than overwhelmed on this initial outing.

Originally, I just came by to ask a question about which tank treatements are favored, and about the service life and likelihood of failure of a particular Honeywell primary, using the principle of the "wisdom of crowds." Somehow, that visit became "trolling" when I began taking part in other posts over a span of days, and acccording to the grand poobah, giving "pseudo wisdom." Perhaps this is only a "pseudo reality," because the wisdom gained over some five decades has served me and my clients very well. I consider that to be a blessing.

And, you are correct that even the devil can quote scripture. That is not a stumbling block to the believer.

Now, back to the situation.

I DO firmly beleive that the level of workmanship I saw in kelli's pictures is not the standard that ANY of us would find acceptable. She has a right to expect better, and for it to be done without delay.

In kelli we have a customer with concerns, plain and simple. Also, we have a contractor who has chosen to not respond to those customer concerns.

Now, as you suggest, kelli could go to the supervisor of the man who flippantly said "I've seen worse." Or, she can engage, for a nominal fee, her own inspector who knows all of the requirements, recommendations, and standards of workmanship of the locality in which kelli resides. Then, armed with that complete and substantive information, she can have someone (my vote is for an experienced legal person) approach the contractor to ask for for remedial service, as she, the customer, has a right to expect.

No matter what an inspector determines, kelli's comfort level immdeiately improves as a result, because there will be an opportunity to remediate concerns or to be confident that few concerns exist. That's a win-win.

While you can take exception to me all you want, I don't think for a minute that you would have left this job with the conditions we saw in those photos. In fact, for all of your attitude, you probably do a far, far better job than kelli's contractor did, perhaps even an excellent job. I like to do a good job as well, and I strive for excellence.

I think that all kelli wants is the assurance that the job is safe and complete, and from a neutral third party who has not damaged their credibility with a flippant remark, and to have the level of workmanship corrected to something that we can all be proud of.

In view of all this, I think the level of discourse here on this forum could stand a good tweaking when if comes to attitude. Here is a guide, Matthew 23:11-12:

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Hopefully, that is a blessing to all.

[hvaclover]

Time builder,

This thread is cold.

Where you been any way?

I was begining to think you didn't care any more.

How's the wife and kids?

[seatonheating]

No offense to the religious community, but to incorporate passages from the bible into this thread is preposterous, and quite comical.

[mark beiser]

I mostly agree with dw1, with one exeption.

The guy that installed that humidifier, and left the horizontal drain pan in the coil so it renders the humidifier 100% useless, is just to stupid to continue sharing oxygen with the rest of the human race.

[johnl]

Originally posted by seatonheating
No offense to the religious community, but to incorporate passages from the bible into this thread is preposterous, and quite comical.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[jingoism]

Originally posted by hvaclover
Daidfr,

Stop being pretentious.
Not a day in the field and you come here advising as if you hold a license.

When you've repaired over sixty thousand furnaces and A/Cs-

When you've taken the risk of business ownership-

When you've saved lives by rushing them out of a monoxide filled home-

When you've gone into a crummy neighborhood on a late call and had to fight your way out swinging a wrench-

When you've accumulated all the science and law knowledge and instinct that the veterans of the HVAC industry have here-

Until then, you are just a guy with a little knowledge.

And a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

Pretenders.

How dare you think of yourself as on par with the people of this industry?

The only thing you have accomplished along with "time bandit" is to stir up some poor HO that had a minor problem who now believes her intsall will implode.

Go haunt "my space", will 'ya?

This sounds like you are some kind of HVAC hero! I mean I work in the field, but saving families and being assaulted by evil gangs, who obviously dont have guns since you fight em off with wrenches, is crazy!

I think both points are valid, and I think both ego's are pretty bloated.

[grasshopper]

Kelly, I am sorry for all this confusing info, opinions and fighting you have had to read. I do not remember after 7 pages of postings if you state where you reside or not, I am in the Midwest. My opinion from my observation of your pictures is that your install is not pretty but mostly functional. This is mostly due to the pre-existing ductwork. Whether or not your flue is ok depends on things we can not tell from your pictures. You also do not show us some of the ductwork and other things to give you an overall professional opinion. Your install could meet all manufacterur install directives and codes by simply pulling the wire nuts inside the condensing unit and strapping up the flue connection pipe properly in under 10 minutes. That and some clean-up and hole sealing and running a seperate drain for the humidifier could all be done in under an hour for a little more then the price of a service call and some materials. In otherwords your cost for paying someone out of your own pocket to fix this is less then most lawyers charge per hour. A lawyer is most likely not your solution. If a letter from one gets the installing contractor to show up and fix this.... great! But if not I would just cut your losses. If a city inspector signed off and closed out a permit, you will need a lot more then these pictures and a few opinions to establish any liability, or that a dangerous situation exists. The "Authority Having Jurisdiction" or the city inspector has already passed it as code compliant and thus safe. Inspectors by law cannot (and should not) comment on anything not code related on a job. It can land them and their juristiction in trouble. I know they see it all. But they could be sued if they offer an opinion. They are charged with dealing with facts about the codes only. So his opinion on a mess or whatever is irrelevant. I speak as someone who has over 15 years in the HVAC trade, a few years working in the legal field and some time in testing labs. I also live next door to my city's heating/plumbing inspector for the last 20 years and we really talk....... LOL. Sorry for the long post. I feel bad like many for your frustrating dealings with our trade. But its really not THAT bad from a function point.

[hvaclover]

Grasshopper,

Thanks for re-capping all my earlier statements.

I hope kelli_c reads this and allows her/him some degree of peace of mind.

To jingoism

My intent was to give kelli a reasonable solution as he/she was obvious "shaken and stirred" by timebuilder's (and others who'd over stated the safety issues)over the top, strong arm recommendation at getting a minor SNAFU corrected.

I think if you'd read the tread in it's entirety you would understand I was informing timebuilder that he did not have the hash marks to give such extreme advice, and my referencing the "crummy neighborhood" was not a demonstration of bravado.

I said that merely to point out that he had not walked the same path as we who are business owners have.

Sorry if you took it for a "bloated ego", because I am certainly not like that at all.

Peace.

[hvaclover]

Sti