Honeywell primary question

[timebuilder]

I'm puzzling over the behavior of a Honeywell R4184D primary control. If the burner is left alone for several hours, on return the primary will be locked out. A press of the button and all is well for another march of hours, and so on. New filter, reset electrodes, recent oil delivery from a good company.

Since I am told that Honeywell no longer manufacturers this part number (R4184D) does that fact suggest that this model has a problem with failure?

Is this a typical failure mode for this uinit?

One company (Ground Heaters) used the R4184D, and lists the replacement part as R8184G. Is there a better choice?

Any thoughts about this? How would you approach this problem?

Thanks.

[coolguysfl]

The Primary Controller is a sophisticated safety control system that employees light sensing technology vs. flue temp to allow safe start up and protection from adding fuel in the event of a poor or no burn scenario.

There are no consumer serviceable parts, a qualified tech can run a battery of test & periodic maintenance to keep you warm & safe.

If the safety control is tripping (as you've described) it's doing its job, protecting you & your home. A faulty ground, loose connection or failure of the pump to prime can cause nuisance shutdowns - your tech will know how to handle this.

Please DO NOT attempt repairs on your own.

[beenthere]

You didn't give alot of info aout the unit. Or what you tested.

nozzle new or old.
Cad cell ohms, is it clean.
Oil pump pressure.
Oil pump vacuum.
Single or 2 pipe.
Single stage, or 2 stage pump.
Excess oil in chamber when you push the reset button, or not.
Porecelains inspected for cracks.
Tank above or below burner.
CO2%,CO%,Stack temp,Smoke test, Draft over fire.


It may sound like alot of measurements, but they all help to determine the problem.

[timebuilder]

My bad.

I have been repairing heating, refrigeration and air conditioning since 1992.

Guess I should call someone who's qualified.

[docholiday]

No, what they are saying is, if you are a pro, post it in the pro section. If you only do side jobs or are a DIYer, then you got your answer.

[timebuilder]

Well, I'm only asking about the service history that you have seen from the R4184, but I'm happy to answer.

nozzle new or old. old, clean, good flame. .85x80A, delavan.

Cad cell ohms, is it clean. Normal light and dark specs, very clean

Oil pump pressure. 145
Oil pump vacuum. not measured
Single or 2 pipe. Single.
Single stage, or 2 stage pump. single
Excess oil in chamber when you push the reset button, or not. No.
Porecelains inspected for cracks. Inspected and reset.
Tank above or below burner. Above
CO2%,CO%,Stack temp,Smoke test, Draft over fire. Not measured.

The reason I am asking is the reference I found in a flowchart that asks if the control is an R4184, and if the answer is "yes," the recommendation that it should be replaced.

I'm trying to determine if this is a problematic control before making additional tests. I just like having a lot of information available, and I thought this would be a good forum to ask about it.

I had posted this in "controls," and someone recommended that I post the question here. Maybe that wasn't a good idea.

;-)

[docholiday]

Try the pro section..Maybe one of the mods will move it for you.

[beenthere]

Just me, but I preffer to do the test, and then base what I do by the results of the test.

The control itself is not common around here, but the few that are aroud are reliable.

A clean looking flame still could be trouble.
Need the combustion test to tell you if its burning right.
Could be too clean.

Register as a pro, then you can post in the pro tech forum after the comittee aproves you, its free.

[timebuilder]

Okay, fair enough. I now have an answer to my question, but I'm left puzzled by the manufacturer who, after a few rudimentary tests (none of which include pump pressure of flue gas checks) recommends the replacement of the R4184D with the more recent R8184G 4009 design. It seems like the manufacturer is suggesting that unit has a problem, so I thought I'd plumb those depths here.

I like to proceed based on testing, too. While I prefer to avoid the approach of making a "known good" substitution (which was an accepted technique for finding bad tubes when I serviced TV's in my twenties, back in the 1970's) I have come to realize that there are definite patterns of reliability and failures accross a wide spectrum of disciplines, from automotive (the GM ECM's of the late 1980's and 1990's) aviation (tail problems on the V-tail Bonanza, which is otherwise a great little airplane and much more fun to fly than a Learjet) and modern televisions (such as the RCA brand under new owner, Thomson SA).

So many designs have problematic patterns that it is often easy to determine a failure based on the raw data and experience than it is it to test for a long time to prove what one knows instinctively, and in the case of Ground Heaters, empirically, based on a troubleshooting flowchart.

Thanks for your time.

[beenthere]

I know what you mean.

the things I have listed, take less then an hour to perform.

no where on that flow chart will you see it say a 5 CO2 is ok.
Nor it will it say 1650 ohms is ok.

[karsthuntr]

There is only one differance between the 4184 and the 8184. The replacement choice should be obvious.

[timebuilder]

Originally posted by karsthuntr
There is only one differance between the 4184 and the 8184. The replacement choice should be obvious.

Yep. You can't buy the R4184 anymore.

and


the things I have listed, take less then an hour to perform.

no where on that flow chart will you see it say a 5 CO2 is ok.
Nor it will it say 1650 ohms is ok.

True.

Of course, that wasn't the question I asked, but I found the attitude of the respondents very instructive.

[deejoe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by timebuilder
[
Of course, that wasn't the question I asked, but I found the attitude of the respondents very instructive. [/B]
************************************************** ******
And that seems to be the general attitude from the majority of these "so-called pros"

[oil lp man]

Sometimes the control itself is faulty.
It has a relay inside and the contacts get worn over twenty or so years.
While the burner is running tap the top of the primary control with the handle of a screwdriver.
If it shuts the burner off and then comes back on again. Then it can be replaced with a similar control with the same safety timing.
Beyond that there are so many posibilities it would take a pro to thoroughly examine the burner.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by deejoe
[QUOTE]Originally posted by timebuilder
[
Of course, that wasn't the question I asked, but I found the attitude of the respondents very instructive.
************************************************** ******
And that seems to be the general attitude from the majority of these "so-called pros" [/B]


Your reply is so helpfull.


Why not replace the control, charge the customer for it.
And then find out it wasn't that part anyway.

Good idea deejoe.

[timebuilder]

Gee.

And to think all I wanted to know was if there was a correlation between the flowchart suggestion being made by a heater manufacturer to replace the control (one that uses the AFG burner upon which the control in question is mounted) and some sort of typical failure mode associated with the (now) obsolete design.

I did find a schematic to muse over, and I see that Honeywell uses a Triac (essentially two SCR's in a single package) and something they call a "bilateral switch." The safety swith uses a heater, which suggests to me that the safety is a bimetal/spring arrangement with a latch. I can imagine that a screwdriver could reveal poor electrical continuity in the mechanical contacts after over a decade of burner current, heat, and vibration.

I'll post again if I need to do more testing or make a repair. Right now, we have remained in normal operating mode for twelve hours without a reset, which suggests an intermittent condition yet to be identified.

[oil lp man]

Originally posted by timebuilder
Gee.

And to think all I wanted to know was if there was a correlation between the flowchart suggestion being made by a heater manufacturer to replace the control (one that uses the AFG burner upon which the control in question is mounted) and some sort of typical failure mode associated with the (now) obsolete design.

I did find a schematic to muse over, and I see that Honeywell uses a Triac (essentially two SCR's in a single package) and something they call a "bilateral switch." The safety swith uses a heater, which suggests to me that the safety is a bimetal/spring arrangement with a latch. I can imagine that a screwdriver could reveal poor electrical continuity in the mechanical contacts after over a decade of burner current, heat, and vibration.

I'll post again if I need to do more testing or make a repair. Right now, we have remained in normal operating mode for twelve hours without a reset, which suggests an intermittent condition yet to be identified.

The R8184G4009 still has that same type of internal scematic as the 4184. I think this control was used more with OEM setups and the R8184G is a replacement.
The R8184G has thermostat terminals that are either used for thermostat wires or jumped out if thermostat terminals are wired elsewhere in the heating system for more than one zone or wired to a triple aquastat or zone control for example.
The only time I have heard of replacing a series of defective Honeywell primary controls, one of which is the one you describe, was the ones in the date codes of 40th week of 1997 through 6th week of 2000. Not all of these were bad though.
And it should have given problems immediately after the installation.
But if your being told by the manufacturers flow chart to replace the control, replace it then.

[Edited by oil lp man on 11-25-2006 at 08:07 PM]

[Leo]

The reason the pros asked so many questions is, the unit can go off and need to be reset because of, an oil delivery problem, an ignition problem, a bad motor, a bad cad cell, or the control itself. Flow charts, bilateral switches and triac switches mean nothing, at this point. The sequence of operation of the whole burner has to be taken into account and tested systematically. That is the reason step by step instructions aren't given in the home owner section. After all is said and done even an experienced tech could either miss something or that perverbial intermittant problem doesn't show itself.

Leo

[timebuilder]

Originally posted by Leo
The reason the pros asked so many questions is, the unit can go off and need to be reset because of, an oil delivery problem, an ignition problem, a bad motor, a bad cad cell, or the control itself. Flow charts, bilateral switches and triac switches mean nothing, at this point. The sequence of operation of the whole burner has to be taken into account and tested systematically. That is the reason step by step instructions aren't given in the home owner section. After all is said and done even an experienced tech could either miss something or that perverbial intermittant problem doesn't show itself.

Leo

As a pro, I ask a lot of questions myself, but I only wanted a very narrow answer about a particular control. What I got was very instructive, but probably not in ways that were intended. Romans, 3:23.

The flow chart I referenced was from a heater manufacturer who used an identical Beckett model with the identical Honeywell primary, and the chart was intended for use by technicians.

Triacs and other electronic components are very familiar to me, so I was hoping someone was willing to discuss those components within the framework of a) the manufacturer's diagnostic advice being referenced and b) the fact that the control has become obsolete in the catalog. I couldn't begin to cite all of the times I've seen some sort of protective device malfunction, and instead of preventing a problem, they create one. That's what the manufacturer seemed to be sufggesting in their flowchart. At the very least, they made me suspicious about the now-obsolete control, and many a poor design is replaced in a product line if it is prone to failure. That's the path I was on with this thread.

I asked about this primary in the "controls" section, and I was advised to paste my post into this section.

The sequence of burner operation had already been taken into account, and the diagnostic steps in the flowchart are not found in a "homeowner section." I'm not the homeowner.

I did eventually find out that the replacement control (the updated model) is virtually identical to the former design, except for the lockout indicator light and the service switch. If the design is problematic, it may (or may not) have been addressed by Honeywell. In fact, there may have been nothing wrong with the design, at all.

Monitoring and further testing will be performed. The fact that the system funtions 100% normally for very long periods has not helped the diag. Perhaps it's time to design my own event recorder.

I may post more when something significant is discovered.

[Edited by timebuilder on 11-27-2006 at 05:08 PM]

[heattech]

One line system...HMMMmmm! Is the fuel tank above ground or below. Ive seen systems with small air leaks lose prime during off cycle just enough that when you reset the control it starts and runs fine. Or it could very well be your control going bad.that dosnt make that model flawed or anything just wearing out (Getting Weak) How about carbon on the end cone not allowing quite enough light through to keep it online continously.Even your tech has c.o.a. the burner dosnt mean he checked the end cone..easy to miss!

[hvaclover]

Hey time bandit

Stop trying to impress everybody with what you "think"
you know.
It's obvious you ain't in the business otherwise you wouldn't be asking uinformed questions.

Try the Bob Villa site DIY.

[timebuilder]

Problem identified: bad primary.

Replaced with new R8184G-4009. Happy customer.

The relay contacts that fed the orange output wire were badly burned after a decade of service.

hvaclover, I'm having some difficulty identifying the cause of your angst. May I recommend spending a few minutes with a different kind of professional?

[oil lp man]

Originally posted by oil lp man
Sometimes the control itself is faulty.
It has a relay inside and the contacts get worn over twenty or so years.
While the burner is running tap the top of the primary control with the handle of a screwdriver.
If it shuts the burner off and then comes back on again. Then it can be replaced with a similar control with the same safety timing.
Beyond that there are so many posibilities it would take a pro to thoroughly examine the burner.

That was my first answer.

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by timebuilder
Problem identified: bad primary.

hvaclover, I'm having some difficulty identifying the cause of your angst. May I recommend spending a few minutes with a different kind of professional?


WWWhhoooo boy... how do you resist that kind of opening?