Suppliers claim "our brand is the same as (insert major manufacturer)"

[GrizzlyB]

Can anybody give me a reasonably short answer on what is what? I go to one supplier who sells AirEase and says it is exactly the same as Lennox. Its made by Lennox. I go to another who sells GrandAire and claims it is exactly the same as Carrier. Made by Carrier, just a different name. Then I talk to an old Pro who says they are not the same. Are these units made by the same company, but not to the same standards? Are they the exact same piece of equipment but with a different label? And what names go with what, what does Carrier make, or Lennox. Rheem? I say this jokingly, but it seems every supply house I walk in to claims they sell Carrier, but with a different label on the side.

Also do you see any real differences in the Generic brands (GrandAire, AirEase, Payne and Goodman) compared to your Trane, Carrier, Lennox, Rheem and York?

[GrizzlyB]

Follow up:

I talked to one old guy I worked with. He said "there all the same......except Payne, I wouldnt put in a Payne." it seems everybody thinks theyre all the same except for brand "X".

[Joehvac25]

Payne and carrier are the same

[clifpaul]

at one time there was a list of who owned who on here but i can't remember where i saw it.

payne, carrier, bryant, heil, comfortmaker and grandaire are carrier products.

lennox, armstrong, ducane, and airease are lennox products.

rheem, ruud and weatherking are the same.

trane and american standard are the same.

goodman and amana.

york and luxaire

I miss anybody? I know I did. There aren't that many companies tha make hvac equipment

[SBKold]

The real high end stuff is reserved for the main line.

The rest wil be cabinet - coil guards- cosmetic differences.

[BaldLoonie]

There is increasing similarities between the Carrier/Bryant/Payne/ICP units. The line between Allied & Lennox is blurring too. Is Air Ease the SAME as Lennox? No, except in rare cases maybe gas packs, oil products. Furnaces are very similar now, different controls. Builder outdoor units are mechanically the same, made in Mexico but with different cabinets. Deluxe Allied A/Cs are made in a different plant than Lennox.

Carrier furnaces are made in Indy along side Payne but Payne usually has defeatured controls, maybe less sound deadening. Payne outdoor units are similar to Bryant/Carrier/ICP builder models except Payne puts Mexicans to work while the rest are American made.

Just remember, when a salesman's lips are moving... So take their "same" with a grain of salt or substitute similar!

[GrizzlyB]

at one time there was a list of who owned who on here but i can't remember where i saw it.

payne, carrier, bryant, heil, comfortmaker and grandaire are carrier products.

lennox, armstrong, ducane, and airease are lennox products.

rheem, ruud and weatherking are the same.

trane and american standard are the same.

goodman and amana.

york and luxaire

I miss anybody? I know I did. There aren't that many companies tha make hvac equipment

Are you saying these are all exactly the same, or basically the same with some differences that will effect quality and performance. Either way, thanks for all that info.

[stay gold jonny]

Armstrong Air
Ducane
Concord
Aire Flow
All made by Allied Air that is owned by Lennox and most models are the same.

Bryant
Payne
Heil
Tempstar
All made by United Technologies, who, makes and owns Carrier. These units are all made at the same factory on the same lines.

Amana, and Whirlpool are all rebadged Goodman.

Gibson
Maytag
Intertherm
Westinghouse
Are made by Nordyne, along with a lot of other brand names.

York and Coleman are the same from what I understand.

That's all I have for ya, I think most of its correct too!

[jtrammel]

Are you saying these are all exactly the same, or basically the same with some differences that will effect quality and performance. Either way, thanks for all that info.

They are made by the same company each company has different brands most brands have at least 3 different lines (builder, value, high end models) there are about 7 major manufactures daikan aka goodman, Johnson controls aka York/luxaire/Coleman, Lennox, carrier, nordyne aka Broan/maytag/fridgidaire among others, rheem/rhuud, trane all of these parent company's father a combined ~60 "brand" names some of which are exactly the same unit with a different sticker and others completely different dependent on which line of equipment they come out of within the brand. I think I confused myself with all of that, it would be easier if all parent companies only had 1 or 2 brands. I think nordyne and icp compete for who can have the most brand names.

[Vinster]

York and Coleman are the same from what I understand.

That's all I have for ya, I think most of its correct too!


York also makes Guardian. Just installed a Guardian a few weeks back, it came with four stickers one of which to be put on the furnace upon completion. They were Guardian, Luxaire, York & Coleman, I guess you put which ever you sold them

[clifpaul]

Like sbkold said, the really good high end stuff is reserved for the main line: Lennox, Carrier, American Standard, Rheem, and York. All else is pretty much cosmetic. And the name stuff tends to get the better warranty. But a lot of it rolls off the same assembly line. Trane and American Standard are made in Tyler TX. Lennox makes their Merit series alng side Airease in Mexico. Goodman and Amana are made in Houston TX. So the quality and performance shouldn't vary that much. Most of the bad rap a brand gets has to do with equipment getting hacked in. Poor airflow, lousy brazing, no drier and the like. All the manufacturers have had buggy equipment: bad motors, and lousy coils. It all depends on what you are comfortable selling and what the customer wants. Those are the two most important things. Some people get hooked on a certain name or have the dinero to spend. Others aren't as picky or don't have money to spend.

[GrizzlyB]

Seems like it is a lot to keep up with. I just know what I like and dislike to work on and the distributors i like and dilike to work with.

[allan38]

There may be some qualitative differences in the premium brand a manufacturer sells.
For example, the Amana AMVM96 has a totally stainless steel heat exchanger, the Goodman GMVM86 furnace has an aluminized steel primary heat exchanger with a stainless steel secondary heat exchanger. The Amana claims to feature a fully insulated heavy-gauge steel cabinet with durable baked-enamel finish. The Goodman doesn't make that claim on the product features page.
They have the same 10 year parts warranty , the Amana has a Lifetime furnace replacement if the heat exchanger fails, the Goodman has a 10 year furnace replacement warranty if the heat exchanger fails.

The Amana distinctions line seem to have the same model numbers and product specifications as the Goodman stuff.
The Amana distinctions line are Goodmans with a different set of stickers.

Thus Goodman/Amana are generally the same, some have upgraded durability features and a better warranty for their upscale brand Amana.

Thus some lines are twins, others are not twins but siblings.

[clifpaul]

It is. And you've probably figured out the most important thing: the distributors you like to work with. If you can't work with a supplier their is absolutely no point in selling there equipment :)

[Andr00]

The websites for Carrier's (http://www.dayandnightcomfort.com/) off (http://www.heil-hvac.com/) brands (http://www.tempstar.com/) are certainly the same.

[clifpaul]

Yep. Idk who has more names under one roof, Carrier or Nordyne.

[dodge]

Manufacture many make different name brands but the real question is where / who makes the compressor, fan motors, inducer draft motors, I feel that most of these parts are manufactured by a few companies and that would make most manufactures the same with different names. Warranty cost I feel is depend on length of time not Quailty of product

[toocoolforschool]

nordyne has a bundle.

[clifpaul]

Manufacture many make different name brands but the real question is where / who makes the compressor, fan motors, inducer draft motors, I feel that most of these parts are manufactured by a few companies and that would make most manufactures the same with different names. Warranty cost I feel is depend on length of time not Quailty of product

Yeah. Lots of units get made everyday with copeland compressors, ge motors, and ge caps. Lots of air handlers and furnaces use X13 motors. When you get down to it all that's really different are the coils, the sheet metal, and the name that's put on the box.

[BaldLoonie]

I think Nordyne gets the price of the most brand names. Electrolux must get a good check each month for license fee :D

[ga-hvac-tech]

Thread pretty well tells the story: I have a sheet (a few years old) shows about 54 or 55 brand names, from 8 manufacture groups.

Generally, almost everyone uses Copeland Scroll compressors, however I see some private label compressors made by LG (to older copeland specs)... so far they are holding up well. Some say the Trane Scrolls are Copelands painted red.

The draft inducer motors are mostly from 2 or 3 companies, the blower and fan motors are all from Mexico or China. The capacitors used to be all Mexico, now some are China and a few high priced brands (none on new equipment I know of) are made in the USA (Amrad). Circuit boards are all from China, as are most contactors, sequencers, relays, pressure switches, etc. A few parts come from Brazil, where most automobile electric and electronic parts come from (nephew in law sells for that co).

Coil making is a manufacturing process... each co does it their way. Key is thickness of CO tubing... and QC during manufacturing. Some co's have gone from 3/8 co tubing to 5/16 or even 1/4 tubing... good and bad issues here. A few (Goodman/Amana and Trane/Am-Std) have gone to all aluminum coils... jury is still out on this. Nordyne group is trying 'micro-channel' coils... similar to automobile coils... LOTS of issues with this design... and lots of failures so far... jury is still VERY out on this.

Trane tried plastic blower cages in their furnaces, and some co's have tried plastic and paper thin metal blower wheels... lots of disintegration (flying apart) issues in the past.

Heat Exchangers (HXE) are either tubular or clamshell... good and bad points for both, depending on manufacturing processes. Metal HXE is made of matters... better units made with better metals... most co's higher end products have better metal HXE's.

Now what is left: How much better is one unit's sheetmetal than the other's? Well the joke in the industry is Goodman even uses larger SM screws... yet they still strip out. Goodman actually puts a part in their ne AH cabinet to strengthen the screw attachment point.

Having said this; I have visited 4 different manufacturing plants in the USA; and I can say AlliedAir has better QC than the others.

Personally, I have sold Trane, been a dealer for Goodman and Ruud, and currently am selling AirEase (part of AlliedAir; includes AirEase, Armstrong Air, Concord and Ducane, along with MagicPak; a thru the wall apartment package unit).
All AlliedAir furnaces come from the Lennox Marshalltown Iowa furnace plant except the oil furnaces. The coils come from ADP in Miss... Lennox owns ADP. The AH's come from ADP also... albeit sometime (nobody including AlliedAir corporate will say when), the plant in SC will start making AH's. The AirEase and Armstrong Air AC and HP and small package units come from Orangeberg SC as well as the MagicPak units... the Ducane and Concord AC and HP units come from Mexico.

I can also say the AlliedAir products are a good value. If one just HAS to have the latest and most exotic bells and whistles... well AlliedAir does not offer them. AlliedAir product ARE dependable when installed properly... Which we all know the installation is more important than the product.

The other thing I would add: The supplier you deal with is as important (or more so) than the equipment line. A good supply house can help your business, a bad supply house can break your business.

[clifpaul]

:cheers:

[GrizzlyB]

[QUOTE=Coil making is a manufacturing process... each co does it their way. Key is thickness of CO tubing... and QC during manufacturing. Some co's have gone from 3/8 co tubing to 5/16 or even 1/4 tubing... good and bad issues here. A few (Goodman/Amana and Trane/Am-Std) have gone to all aluminum coils... jury is still out on this. Nordyne group is trying 'micro-channel' coils... similar to automobile coils... LOTS of issues with this design... and lots of failures so far... jury is still VERY out on this. more important than the product.[/QUOTE]

I may need to start a new thread for this, but what do you know about the aluminum coils? Ive seen the micro-channel coils, and theoretically it seems like it would work well and even though the aluminum isnt as tough as copper the aluminum in the coil looks thicker. I would be against an aluminum coil made like the traditional copper coils (I think it would be too thin). I k ow you said the jury is out, but just interested in what youve heard.

[clifpaul]

The aluminum coils are okay. They work. Do they work as good as copper? IMHO too soon to tell. But I've warrantied quite a few of them.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I may need to start a new thread for this, but what do you know about the aluminum coils? Ive seen the micro-channel coils, and theoretically it seems like it would work well and even though the aluminum isnt as tough as copper the aluminum in the coil looks thicker. I would be against an aluminum coil made like the traditional copper coils (I think it would be too thin). I k ow you said the jury is out, but just interested in what youve heard.

Do a search, there are some threads about conventional construction aluminum coils. Also back in the 1980's GE made aluminum coils... some of them are STILL going today... yes, 20, even 30+ years on an evap coil. Hard to believe... :)

Do a search on micro-channel coils also... multiple threads on this. Issues with being pressure sensitive, one cannot pump down into them, leaky, and HYPER sensitive to charge... do NOT overcharge. IMO not a good choice for hacks or even casually trained techs.

[Frosty28]

I have seen my employer who sells a lot of Goodman/Amana switch nameplates regularly. We have had customers that specifically stated they do not want a Goodman, so they sell them an Amana. Supply house ships a Goodman equivalent along with new tags.

Seems real deceptive and shady to me and it will probably catch up to them. Not my decision though.

[clifpaul]

I've seen that happen before. With Goodman and ICP /Carrier stuff too.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I have seen my employer who sells a lot of Goodman/Amana switch nameplates regularly. We have had customers that specifically stated they do not want a Goodman, so they sell them an Amana. Supply house ships a Goodman equivalent along with new tags.

Seems real deceptive and shady to me and it will probably catch up to them. Not my decision though.

Well... it has not caught up with them for longer than we have been alive. Folks do not do enough research IMO.

The difference between Goodman and Amana (other than paint color, model #'s, and tags) is the warranty and price.

I went to the Goodman plant in Houston a while back... they will roll out the red carpet for you. If one carefully observes what is going on... they will learn what is REALLY going on.

In my opinion (probably a bit biased)... AlliedAir stands out; They will honestly tell you which product lines they promote as economy grade and better grade... and they will honestly tell you how to sell each in their perxpective markets. Better IMO than trying to hide which products come from which manufacturer.

[socotech]

Whay about Tempstar? That's a Carrier product? ICP I think.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Whay about Tempstar? That's a Carrier product? ICP I think.

Carrier owns ICP. Personally I am not familiar with how that relationship (Carrier and ICP) works... anyone know?

[clifpaul]

Not really sure myself. All I know is that they are both owned by United Technologies.

[arc8]

Since i work with carrier products, i've have some thoughts.

United Technology: owns Carrier, Bryant, Payne, all ICP products.

Carrier has their own proprietary designs that they do not share with the others under UTX, and so on with Bryant and Tempstar (ICP).

But, Payne eventually gets them years down the road after Carrier develops more technology for themselves. Payne does not advertise as much either.

Bryant, OTOH, develops their own technologies that mimics Carrier, they are very similar (Infinity vs Evolution, etc...).

Tempstar is the top flagship of the ICP products. They have their own proprietary designs as well. I've heard they have incorporated their HX into Carrier's new short furnaces!

All these new 35" furnaces are basically identical: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Tempstar, etc.... Like some others have said, each line are very much similar with certain models, and each has their own base models.

But, Payne is the only one that doesn't have many models to choose from due its lower class, but not lower quality. All components are the same (furnaces and AC). All Evap coils are the same across the brands.

Some are USA products and some MEX products, but they still have fairly above good QC.

Anyone else with info, please add. Thanks.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just a refresher... I remember Tempstar and Comfortmaker are part of ICP (international comfort products)... which other brand names are there?

[arc8]

Just a refresher... I remember Tempstar and Comfortmaker are part of ICP (international comfort products)... which other brand names are there?

These are the others: Arcoaire, Day & Night, Heil and Keeprite.

[ga-hvac-tech]

These are the others: Arcoaire, Day & Night, Heil and Keeprite.

So ICO includes: ArcoAire, Comfortmaker, Day & Night, Heil, Keeprite, and Temstar... that is six brands under one roof.

Is/are most of the equipment mostly the same? Other than color, model#, label, etc?

[arc8]

See http://www.icpusa.com/ for info.

[ga-hvac-tech]

See http://www.icpusa.com/ for info.

Looks similar to: http://www.alliedair.com

[clifpaul]

Yeah except for the color, model #'s and stickers all the ICP stuff I've seen has been the same. Btw ICP owns Grandaire too.

[John Markl]

The aluminum coils are okay. They work. Do they work as good as copper? IMHO too soon to tell. But I've warrantied quite a few of them.

One of the primary advantages of all-aluminum coils, is that you get rid of the "dissimilar metals" issue.

Think about it. Where do most coils leak?

At the tube sheet.....:angel:

Modern copper resi coils aren't field repairable anyway.

[John Markl]

nordyne has a bundle.

Nordyne seems to have focused on old appliance brand names, that the AARP crowd easily recognizes. They may be smarter than we think. :cheers:

[GrizzlyB]

One of the primary advantages of all-aluminum coils, is that you get rid of the "dissimilar metals" issue.

Think about it. Where do most coils leak?

At the tube sheet.....:angel:

Modern copper resi coils aren't field repairable anyway.

Maybe im showing some ignorance, but ive never heard about the residential copper coils not being field repairable? What do you mean?

[clifpaul]

X2. And the newer aluminum coils I've had no problems with. Its just the older ones I've had to take back. Espcially the goodman coils. The carrier coils seem to nb e made better imho.

[clifpaul]

Sorry about the typo. It should read be not nb. I can't edit my posts for some reason at this time.

[John Markl]

Maybe im showing some ignorance, but ive never heard about the residential copper coils not being field repairable? What do you mean?

The copper is too thin....the price we pay for "efficiency".....

[clifpaul]

Makes sense

[craig1]

If you poke a hole in it, they're repairable.

If it springs a leak and you fix it, you'll be back next week fixing another leak.

[clifpaul]

true.

[tedkidd]

.

Just remember, when a salesman's lips are moving... !

BAHH! Sitting here with a grin on my face! Thanks!

(I'm realizing that more and more I'm trolling for laughs)

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just a quick explanation about copper AC evap coils (indoor coils):

When two different metals are in contact, and it is wet... a process called 'dissimilar metal corrosion' happens. The water causes the two metals to become a battery, the minute elec current causes the metals to deteriorate. In my experience, it is not the contact between the CO and AL... it is the contact between the CO and steel end plates. And yeah, that area is difficult to repair. Done it... however difficult. Better to either replace the coil or replace the system.

[nchvac]

That last statement makes me look like a hero about 3 times a month during the summer. A dremel tool and low heat will fix coil leaks at the tube sheet. If the customer don't ahve the replace I will repair all day long. And I have yet to be called back on a repair like this, knock on wood.

Now Formicary leaks are a different story. I am talking about stress crack type leaks. Formicary leaks that bubble little cacunes down the coil have no help.

On the aluminum coils, there are kits to repair those and some products with low melt points out more and more.

[nchvac]

I have been told that Goodman puts better parts in the Amana line and uses a different circuit board with more bells and whistles. No one around my area sells amana due to a cocky distributor years ago.

Payne is the old Carrier design.

Personally, I like selling companies that find something that works and sticks with it. I like to sell equipment that has parts that any hvac company can get and will likely have in their truck. I do not like where the hvac industry is heading with special parts on equipment. I am tired of waiting a week to get a part for Trane and Carrier. Twice I have been told that txvs are 2 months out at Carrier. That is absolute bull crap. If you have something under warranty you should have the parts.
I have heard several complaints about Tranes new airhandlers, which is a disappointment because they had a good design for so many years.
Just my opinion.

[nchvac]

I think they call that process dielectric

[John Markl]

I am tired of waiting a week to get a part for Trane and Carrier. Twice I have been told that txvs are 2 months out at Carrier. That is absolute bull crap. If you have something under warranty you should have the parts.

Amen, brother !! :cheers:

My local Heil distributor is also a "stocking Copeland distributor"....I've witnessed multiple occasions, where a "dealer" had a bad compressor in warranty, and they had the compressor in stock...but they wouldn't let the dealer have it, because it wasn't "ICP warranty stock".

Oh sure, they'll SELL it to you, but you still have to wait a week for the warranty compressor to come from ICP...and then you'll have one of your very own in stock....at your shop, on your dime.....unless you want to make your warranty customer wait a week....and you know where that will get YOU :(

[clifpaul]

I know which supply house chain you refer too. I used to go in and pick up compressors 3 or 4 at a time for home warranty company work (ahs) while guys like you got stuck waiting. Sorry John. I agree its not right. People that deal in the equipment that a supply house sells SHOULD get priority over someone like me.

[craig1]

I think they call that process dielectric

galvanic corrosion 335151

[ddalberto]

Sometimes the warranty might be different. We install mostly Ruud. Lifetime warranty on heat exchanger. Weathering is the same thing, a little cheaper and I think 20 years on the heat exchanger. Other than that....same unit.
I used to work at carrier in Syracuse NY back in the '80's. when we switched from Carrier to Bryant, the only things we changed out were the data tags and the badges. The actual units sat on the assembly line while we changed them.
With that said though, be careful because there is some junk out there.

[nchvac]

Sometimes the warranty might be different. We install mostly Ruud. Lifetime warranty on heat exchanger. Weathering is the same thing, a little cheaper and I think 20 years on the heat exchanger. Other than that....same unit.
I used to work at carrier in Syracuse NY back in the '80's. when we switched from Carrier to Bryant, the only things we changed out were the data tags and the badges. The actual units sat on the assembly line while we changed them.
With that said though, be careful because there is some junk out there.

I had a Rheem unit this spring with a bad heat exchanger. Horizontal unit in a crawlspace with a right hand supply and exhaust coming out of the left. Called to get a replacement xchanger and they no longer make the furnace or xchanger, even though it was in the warranty period of 20 years. How can they legally do that? So instead of getting a heat exchanger they gave them $275 toward a new RHEEM unit of their choice. I don't think that is right. If it is under warranty then the parts should be available.

I am told that Carrier has already stoped carrying some of thier 2 stage compressors. I think Carrier does too much R&D. I like companies that find something that works and sticks with it. Change is good, but you don't have to change everything at one freeking time.

[John Markl]

I am told that Carrier has already stoped carrying some of thier 2 stage compressors. I think Carrier does too much R&D. I like companies that find something that works and sticks with it. Change is good, but you don't have to change everything at one freeking time.

I won't miss those Bryant compressors one bit.....:censored: