I'm Tired of Asking for Help--But I Need It

[lksmith]

Greetings,

I'm at about week 3 after my Trane heatpump/dual fuel installation. The installers have been back once already to 'fix' the system. They are coming back again tomorrow to fix their wiring screw-ups. My patience is wearing on this deal. Seems to me that following a schematic shouldn't be too difficult. Maybe it is. Anyway, here's the deal, by looking at the schematics on both the furnace (XV80) and my IAQ 9000 I see that W1 and W2 are jumpered as is the Y and O. I understand this is not correct. I also have no O to O from the furnace board to the tstat. I have a W1 to the W2-Aux on the tstat, but no W2 to the W3-Aux2 on the tsat. I'll get all those items dealt with tomorrow. Coming out of the tstat going to the heatpump is an orange W1-OB wire, a yellow wire off the Y terminal, and a white wire off the W2-Aux terminal.

My question, in laymans terms, is what does the white wire do coming off the tstat going to the heatpump? Honestly, I don't care what it does, but is it supposed to be there? Just looking at the rest of the W wires, they seem to be involved with furnace side of the system, not the heatpump. Given that these installers seem to have problems getting this righ,t I'm pretty skeptical they'll get this right, thus questions to you pros that I shouldn't have to ask at all. I guess the second question would be, what terminals off of the tstat should have wires headed out to the heatpump? (Excluding the outdoor temp sensor)

Finally, and I'll end this rant, I close up the bottom panel of the furnace after having drawn my "as wired schematic." A couple of hours later I note it seems a bit cool upstairs--that's the furnace I'd taken the lower panel off of. I look at the tstat face, it's dark. Hmmm, maybe I didn't get the furnace door back on. Check that, no luck, check and reset the CB, no luck. Thinking how I'm going to explain having totally screwed up the furnace. Just seems like the furnace is getting no power at all. In desparation I pull off the upper panel. There dangling is one of the 'hot' leads from the power box. It had slipped out of the wire nut, which appears too small for 3 wires. Checked the power off, got the wire back in the wire nut and now the furnace is operating again. I SWEAR I didn't mess with those wires when I was looking at the wiring from the furnace board to the tstat.

But damn, am I asking too much for a professional installation? Initally I'm dealing with a sales guy who seems very knowledgeable about what I need and spends a goodly amount of time answering my questions. Seems like a good operation. I check references--everybodies happy. Course they're probably not checking wiring against the schematics.

Sorry for the rant here. You guys who write on this forum are pros and I appreciate all of your help. I just wish the folks putting this system in had half your professionalism and your interest in doing it by the book.

Oh yeah, the question was about the wires coming out of the tsat. Please tell me what I should see. I want to make sure these guys get it right. I'm tired of having them as my house guests.

Larry Smith

[swagging tool]

If that wire nut on the high voltage connection was not big blue and taped closed with a quality black electricians tape I would request it be just that. Other than that as far as the low voltage stuff i cant help you there according to board rules other than to say if it get to be to much call trane maybe they can help you if by nothing else calling your dealer and walking them through any problems they might be having with your unit.

[BaldLoonie]

We hook AUX to W1 and AUX2 to W2 as we want staging of the backup heat. Do you have a 16i or 19i? Then you'd need Y2 for 2nd stage compressor.

[lksmith]

Thanks for your responses. I understand your concerns about providing infomation for DIY. Believe me, I'm not going there at all. That's why the installers are coming back over today. My concern is simply that I don't believe these installers really know where the low voltage wires go.

No the wire nut isn't big and blue and covered with electrical tape. It's small, orange and has exposed wires. I'm SURE that's up to code!!!

Bald, the outside unit is an XR13 so I understand I don't need the Y2 wire. It's the W2-Aux wire off the tstat going to the heatpump that has me wondering if that's what it's supposed to do.

Larry Smith

[simpleman]

The w2 wire going to the heatpump is there to bring in the backup heater in the airhandler when the outdoor unit goes into defrost.

[lksmith]

Thanks simpleman. Sounds like that wire is where it's supposed to be. I'm glad they got SOMETHING right in the original install.

Larry Smith

[desto1]

are the useing the tayplus103 d/f kit or are they useing
t stat for your dual fuel kit? if your xv80 blower is configured for comfort-r they should have r to o jumpered
not y to o. o wires should be tied together in furnace,not hooked to o terminal on control board. also did you mean
your t stat was an iaq 8000 instead of iaq 9000?

[lksmith]

desto1,

We're using the tstat for the dual fuel/second stage on the furnace.

I didn't see anything on the schematics about jumpering R to O for the Comfort-R. I'll have to ask about that.

I do have the IAQ9000, not the 8000 series.

Thanks.

Larry Smith

[mark beiser]

Having Y and O jumpered together on the furnace control board is functionally the same as having R and O jumpered together.

[lksmith]

Mark,

You did previously tell me that having Y and O jumpered will cause the blower to try to ramp up in the Comfort-R mode which is a cooling side only mode and is not in accordance with the Trane wiring schematics. Isn't that correct?

Larry Smith

[desto1]

having y to o will not give you give you the proper ramping
if the heat pump is locked out and only the furnace is providing heat. the blower will ramp to 100 percent instead of 80 percent.i have been to various trane factory classes
and the factory reps are the ones who brought this to our attention.especially if you use xv series systems with the xl 16 i. sounds like you folks should attend the factory training classes,or at least stay awake in them!

[desto1]

anyway,if i am understanding your wiring and t- stat description correctly, o from t stat should be connected to the o on heat pump,y from tstat should be on y2 at control board in furnace,not ylo. y2 on control board at furnace should also run to y on heat pump.black from heat pump should terminate at w1 on furnace control board.w2 from tstat should be on w1 at furnace cont board also.w3 from tstat should go to w2 on furnace cont board.did installers jump w1 and w2 on furnace control board? if so the board times second stage of furnace in after 10 min of run time,not tstat, when furnace is providing heat.if this is case then tstat needs to be set up differently.i assume you tstat is a honeywell.there are different ways as you can see to set up xv80 w/heat pump according to how the tstat is setup and wired.unfortunately installers are not service techs most of the time in this industry.if the dont solve the problem,tell your salesman you want a "service tech" to straighten your system out. good luck to you bro!

[lksmith]

The deed is done! The tech came out today, studied the schematic I had drawn (which is what the notes on the real installer guide said to do), scratched his head a a few times and decided it "wouldn't hurt" to do it "my way" (per the Trane installer guide). It's kind of sad that he really wasn't sure about the whole deal, but anyway, he got it right and I'm happy that it's finally done per the specs.

Thanks to all of you for your help and comments. I simply never would have discovered these wiring issues if it had not been for all you pros. It would have worked, but it wouldn't have been right. When you spend the big bucks, you expect it to be right. Now it is.

Thanks again.

Larry Smith

[jrbenny]

Originally posted by desto1
having y to o will not give you give you the proper ramping
if the heat pump is locked out and only the furnace is providing heat. How does a Y or O signal affect gas heat airflow?

[gsxrsquid]

At least in any shop I have seen in Bay County Florida. installers are lower paid and I haven't met one yet who was an actual tech, though a couple did get EPA cards. I have seen shops who let the installers who are not techs do the start up. this consisted of purging the air from the line with refrigerant (we don't need no stinking vaccum pumps), with luck they might look for leaks, throw the switch and if it starts they are on their way. Of course in a day or so a tech will be sent out to correct the problems caused by the installers. hmmmmm I don't think an R-22 system pressure should be 150/500. maybe I should take a little gas out since the installers didn't, and there is a 10' run of line.
Or miswired systems and such.
And of course when I have to go out and correct these mistakes the home owner is jumping on MY A$$ about their lousy system.
I know of one copmpany who had rough in copper stolen. just broken off at ground. Then it rained and filled the lines for a couple days. they blew water out and brazed on stubs of copper and brazed. They wouldn't even install Driers in them. "We blew the lines with dry nitrogen" yeah that works.
Everyone makes mistakes but hiring unqualified people as installers and not training them is not a mistake.
Ahhhhhhh I feel much better. ;-)

[desto1]

hey jrbenny, the ge ecm2.3 blowers in trane,lennox and other units have ramping functions in the ecm programming.
lets use the xv90 for an example,a 2 stage furnace with the ecm blower.trane explained to us in a factory class on these motors that if "o" does not have 24v on the terminal in heating,the blower will go directly in to 100% speed in high fire,with y to o you dont have the voltage present to o when furnace is providing your heat.with r to o the voltage is present all the time,therefore,the blower will ramp to 80% of programmed speed allowing you to take advantage of its energy savings that it provides. if after a preset amoun of time,if demand is not satisfied,the blower will ramp on up to 100% to satisfy the demand.though this is not in there lit yet,the reps and engineers recommend this,especially if you use xv equipment with the xl 16i heat pump.this info was provided to us in a factory training class held at the trane dso in my area.lennox has similar hookups for the g61mpv.