trane heat Pump noise/air flow

[brtims]

Hi
I am victim of a Home Depot Trane XL14i install. It has been ugly from the start. I am now at 10 months since awful install and having issues. When the unit starts up I hear what seems to be a grinding noise or perhaps refrigernat noise echoing through trunks. We have the idiots/non trane certified tech coming today (after they first sent an oil burner guy) to look. Does anyone know what that noise could be?? Also the air flow is much weaker than it was a few months ago. My wife mentioned it being poor in the summer but I shrugged it off thinking since it is a variable speed the demand is not needed.
Thanks in advance
Brian

[beachhvac]

My suggestion is call a Trane Comfort Specialist Dealer to come out and set up the air handler and system correctly. You may have to pay some out of pocket, but in the long run, the system will finally be set up correctly.

[kevinmac]

Get on HD butt and tell them they need to send out a Comfort Sepcialist and not a non Trane guy. Your system is supposed to have a 2 year warranty on it for P&L, and 10 yr parts. If you get no satisfaction, call Trane and tell them the horror story!

[brtims]

Shouldn't HD pay for it? How do force that issue?

[brtims]

Update: I had the contractor come out and he tested everything and could not find a problem. Then I hired another technician (trane certified) and he checked everything out and could not find a problem either. The only thing he changed was to increase the ramp up speed of the VS Air handler. That helped a bit bit but ti still is load. This guy thought it was a buildup of pressure and increasing ramp up speed would help.
Does anyone have any other thoughts on this? again when the heat pump starts it sounds like a loud clangy or gurgling noise.(sort of what it sounds like a dishwasher letting the water out down the drain) It stays there for 10 seconds or so then goes away. When the unit shuts off it comes back but then it sounds like a bang. The heat pump works fine but this noise wakes me up at night because it is right above my bedroom upstairs in the attic.
Thanks

[hvaclover]

A bang sounds like the duct is expanding and then popping.

The gurgling is, IMHO, more than likely a refrigerant travel related sound.

One of the Trane guys will be along shortly.

To me it sounds like a system related issue.
Just curious, did they install a new line set or use the existing one?

[Edited by hvaclover on 11-17-2006 at 03:01 PM]

[brtims]

It is a new install. A retrofit. New ducts and all.
Thanks for your response !!

Brian

[hvaclover]

Sounds like the duct is flexing and making your banging noise for sure.

[Edited by hvaclover on 11-17-2006 at 04:14 PM]

[brtims]

The only metal ducts that exist are on one of the return lines that runs through one of my large closets. If that was flexing wouldn't I hear it there as well? I don't. Whe I am in the attic I hear gurgling noises by the refriderant line so I am thinking maybe that noiise is being echoed through supply lines? I lust listed now.
The rest of the trunks are that insulated board type plus all flex ducts.
BT

[hvaclover]

I am sure duct board would deaden the noise. Gurgling is some thing in the refrig cycle. Is it normal for a heat pump?

You have to hook up with a Trane guy to answer that.

[brtims]

I had a heat pump in my first house and I never had this problem/irritation. IT is driving me crazy. Why do I get the issues that no one has seen before? Lucky me !!!

[hvaclover]

Not trying to avoid your question. Trying to give you something based on sound physics.

I am not there and I certainly can't, from where I sit, tell what is wrong with your system.

Be patient and a Trane guy will be here to answer you.

[brtims]

your advice/help is very much appreciated!!!
Thanks

[beachhvac]

last time I heard a trane system make a gurgling noise in the refrigerant lines it was over charged which also caused the compressor to make a thud noise when it shut down. this was on an older 11 seer model.

[brtims]

according to two techs the charge is aok. I have their reports. Which terms represent charge? I see for outdoor unit :
suct: 72
disch: 260

Is that what "charge " means?
Thanks

[hvaclover]

Originally posted by beachhvac
last time I heard a trane system make a gurgling noise in the refrigerant lines it was over charged which also caused the compressor to make a thud noise when it shut down. this was on an older 11 seer model.

BINGO!

Thud of the comp, gurgling of system equalizing.

Applies to HP and straight cooling splits too.

[brtims]

so I need to have the charge lowered? To what value/s?
Brian

[mark beiser]

Hmmm, clangy/gurgly noise on startup and a bang on shut down.

Bet you a dollar that its the check valve in the indoor coil. :)

It probably makes the clany/gurgly noise the whole time it is running, its just more audible just after startup.

I would have to hear it to know 100% for sure, but your description of the noise sounds like an issue I have run into a couple of times with Trane R-410a heat pump systems. The ball in the check valve for the indoor coil clatters around in the heating mode, then when the system shuts off, it sounds almost like a water pipe hammering once or twice.
It does it most often and loudest when the heat pump is running in mild weather.

Trane makes a clip on magnet kit for the check valves that solves the problem, at least it has the 2x I have run into it.

IMO, Trane needs to start using a different kind of check valve. They have been using the same check valves made on the same machine since the GE days. The lady that runs the machine that makes them has to preassemble all the parts, and load them in the press by hand, then close the press by hand. When I took the factory tour, the first thing she said to us is "My machine is very old.".
I was thinking to myself "Hmmmm, that explains a few things...". :D

Kinda funney taking the tour and seeing all the new state of the art multimillion dollar automated machinery for making all the sheet metal pieces, then this lady still hand assembling and loading parts for check valves on a machine that was probably built in the early '60s, lol.

[Edited by mark beiser on 11-17-2006 at 05:26 PM]

[brtims]

check valve huh? That's interesting. I will get the tech back to check both the charge and the check valve and see what they come up with. Any link to this magnet item??
I will post back what happens. Thanks for everyone's help
Brian

[hvaclover]

All things come to he who waits.
Thanks Mark. Great insight.

[mark beiser]

I had one on my truck!
This one is for a call I'm running tomorow morning for an XL16i system that is making the same kind of noises you describe. The customer didn't believe it could be so simple at first, he is an engineer, until I made the noise stop with the magnet on the end of my tool retriever. :)
http://home.comcast.net/~mbeiser/ACstuff/junk/magnet.jpg

[brtims]

thanks for the pic. that's funny you mention he is an engineer. I am an engineer as well and to think a magnet would work is odd to me too!!! I will look into and try it out
Do you think that a simple homeowner like myself could figure out where it goes?
Thanks

[orlandotech]

Originally posted by mark beiser
I had one on my truck!
This one is for a call I'm running tomorow morning for an XL16i system that is making the same kind of noises you describe. The customer didn't believe it could be so simple at first, he is an engineer, until I made the noise stop with the magnet on the end of my tool retriever. :)
http://home.comcast.net/~mbeiser/ACstuff/junk/magnet.jpg

mark, that does explain a few things. I installed two different 14i systems a few months ago that had noisy check valves in the condensers. both were around the 3 to 4 ton range. one VS air handler and the other was a TWE plus air handler. the VS units valve was doing it so much it was making the disch. needle flutter like it had non condensables in the sys but it wasn't doing it all the time. the other system was doing it a tiny bit. why can't they use a more updated process for making those things. I think a simple check ball return spring might fix this during manufacturing. this is not the first time i've heard of this problem either.

[mark beiser]

Well, the magnet got rid of the rattling noise from the check valve in the indoor coil on the one I worked on this morning, but it didn't totally solve the double clunk on shutdown in the heat mode.
I found the system a little overcharged. Pulled just over a pound of refrigerant out and the double clunk on shutdown went away. The double clunk was caused by the ball in the check valve slamming shut under the higher than normal pressures caused by the overcharge. It sounded like it was bouncing off its seat and slamming shut a second time, thus the double clunk.
I blame my boss since he started the unit up when we installed it this summer! ;)
He is still using dial type gauges, wich suck for working on r410a, so it doesn't suprise me that the charge was off. I got it spot on the performance charts using my digital gauges though. :)

[brtims]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I am on a mission now and can advise my tech where to look. I will let you know what happens. To bad you don't live in Northeast PA or I would hire you!!

[orlandotech]

Originally posted by mark beiser
He is still using dial type gauges, wich suck for working on r410a, so it doesn't suprise me that the charge was off. I got it spot on the performance charts using my digital gauges though. :)

why does a dial type ref. manifold not work good for 410a? to me it doesn't make sense that it works for 22 or 404a etc. and not 410a. I know 410a runs at higher pressures but is that the reason? i've used dial type manifold for 410a and not noticed any problems with charge or performance. if there is any issues I would like to know so I can look out for them in the future.

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by orlandotech

Originally posted by mark beiser
He is still using dial type gauges, wich suck for working on r410a, so it doesn't suprise me that the charge was off. I got it spot on the performance charts using my digital gauges though. :)

why does a dial type ref. manifold not work good for 410a? to me it doesn't make sense that it works for 22 or 404a etc. and not 410a. I know 410a runs at higher pressures but is that the reason? i've used dial type manifold for 410a and not noticed any problems with charge or performance. if there is any issues I would like to know so I can look out for them in the future.

The resolution is poor because they have to compress a larger pressure scale onto the same size gauge. On a system where 2º subcooling in the cooling mode can have a substantial impact on the performance of the system, a dial gauge sucks. Even on 3 1/8" gauges it is 5psi between marks on the dial, and then there is the issue of the spot the needle is pointing at looking different due to even small differences in viewing angle...
Most people don't check and adjust 0 on thier guages often enough, or check thier calibration at normal working pressures, so they don't even know that thier gauges are off a little.
The worst invention ever is those dumbass hoses with the built in low loss fittings. I was talking to a tech in a supply house about it once and found out he used those kind of hoses. We went out and checked his gauges and both of his sets were off. The high side gauge on his R410a manifold was off by 10psi...

The typical blue and red plastic gauges are total garbage for any refrigerant.
If you are going to use dial type gauges, at least get 1% accuracy gauges with a metal housing, and check them often.

[orlandotech]

I agree with you about the low loss fittings. I understand the reason for them but I don't like having pressure on my manifold guages all the time. I don't use one on the low side. the main reason I use one is for frostbite, especially when working on some of the older Trane XE's where the high side service port is pinned against the cabinet or pointed at the suction line stub tube nut. yes I do relieve the pressure from the high side hose but only on my last call of the day. ( some may consider this venting but if I didn't use the low loss fittings, I would be venting more than that anyway. I'm just being honest in my discussions on these forums ).

speaking of digital manifolds, have you seen this one:

http://www.yellowjacket.com/images/40802-with-boot.jpg
looks like it can do everything but convenience has it's price. I wonder if it's worth it. also, something I have wondered is can you still use some troubleshooting methods ( i.e. non condensables in running system making head needle flutter ) with a dig manifold? is the sampling rate of the heads fast enough to see this or other problems like it? what brand do you use? are they durable or do you have to treat them like a piece of glass? was thinking of getting a set but didn't know of anyone else in my area that has one to ask these questions.

[heattech]

sounds like possibly the system wasnt properly evacuated and charged at startup bythe discription of the gurgling noise. As for the banging sound I was employed as a service tech for a trane dealer for 12+ years and am now an american standard dealer and I have seen the variable speed modules cause the blower motor to rock back and forth on start up and it can get pretty loud at times. customers describe it like LOUD walking in the attic or banging on the unit overhead.and It doesnt happen all the time so no doubt it behaves when the tech is there!!

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by orlandotech
looks like it can do everything but convenience has it's price. I wonder if it's worth it. also, something I have wondered is can you still use some troubleshooting methods ( i.e. non condensables in running system making head needle flutter ) with a dig manifold? is the sampling rate of the heads fast enough to see this or other problems like it? what brand do you use? are they durable or do you have to treat them like a piece of glass?

Heh, with the Digi-Cool, wich is what the Yellow Jacket set is, you can see fluctuations in the system that you could never pick up with a dial gauge, very fast response on the bar graph, but the main pressure display updates every 1 or 5 seconds, depending on setting. Check out the demos at http://www.digi-cool.com.
If you already have good temperature measuring equipment and don't want to pay for the superheat/subcool functions, you can get the Digi-Cool BTD-1000 for $400 and mount it on a manifold you already have.

The Digi-Cool has been durable so far, seems at least as durable as any meter, but you obviously want to take care of it. Dial gauges don't hold up well to much abuse either.
Mine survived an accedental drop about 5 feet onto a sidewalk. It was kind of a worst case kind of drop too, landed on the corner of the housing with the full weight of the manifold and hoses behind it, barely scratched the corner.

[brtims]

Well the magnets were installed and the problem still exists. The tech heard the noise coming from the indoor coil but he does not know what problem is. They said they have to get back to me and do some research. Anyone have thoughts on this? BTW they notice when the unit shuts off the freon line shakes which they believe is too much pressure on the coil and it is being released. The saga continues.

[brtims]

Believe it or not the issue with noise upon startup was the lineset itslef not being secured. The technician (new guy great troubleshooting skills) noticed the lineset vibrating on startup and shutdown. He then tied down the lineset (installer did not) along the whole run and the noise left. Now the system is as quiet as advertised. This guy also noticed all of the sloppy work on the installer and fixed many of those as well. (poorly hung vents, leaks on the main trunk). They left the magnet kits insatlled just forr the heck of it.
He also told his boss that the system needs to be jacked up. The compressor is on top of concrete block with no jacks which would mean lots of shovelling for me when it snows. Finally a good technician who knows what needs to be done. He was here two days ago and could not identify it then he said the other night he was on the couch and he couldn't stop thinking about it then this popped into his head and he was right. He was supposed to do my install but hurt his back. Bad timing for me because I got stuck with a horrible installation.
Thanks