UA Union Card Tittles

[raven22]

ok so for the UA union cards local 638 metal trades ny what do all the different abbreviations mean like MES,MTJ,BTJ,DVH,DVJ,tradesman,and anyothers

[HVACJOEK]

MTJ = Metal Trades Journeyman "B"
BTJ= Building Trades Journeyman "A"

[MechanicallyInclined]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. 638A is Construction Journeymen Pipe/SteamFitters & Pipe Welders. 638B is Service Journeymen HVACR Techs.

[supertek65]

i am not in NY but my card says DVJ MES
I have no idea what DVJ means? I still make $46 an hour with $22 benefit package 3 pensions and pay the same dues as everybody else!

MES is mechanical equipment service

we do not have A or B

[HVACJOEK]

i am not in NY but my card says DVJ MES
I have no idea what DVJ means? I still make $46 an hour with $22 benefit package 3 pensions and pay the same dues as everybody else!

MES is mechanical equipment service

we do not have A or B

That is what my card is as well, I don't remember what the DVJ stands for either. I will have to find out monday.

[supertek65]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have had that card for 10 years!

probably worked about 25,000 hours in that time.
you would think I would know what the heck it means??????????

if you find out
post it here or PM me!




That is what my card is as well, I don't remember what the DVJ stands for either. I will have to find out monday.

[Tech Rob]

My card says PDG or "Pink Doughnut Getter"

[MechanicallyInclined]

DVJ? Do you guys work for a National or NSMA signatory?

[MechanicallyInclined]

What exactly is a Gasfitter? Is that a Canadian title? Or just a Pipefitter that works w/Natural Gas?

[wundumguy]

It's not a Canadian thing. Example: UA Local 12 (Boston), Plumbers and GasFitters.
A Gas Fitter is typically a natural gas and/or propane fitter.

Gas Fitter is one of the three founding trades of the UA in 1889. The UA was originally named: The United Association of Journeyworker Plumbers, Gas Fitters, Steam Fitters, and Steam Fitters Helpers' of the United States and Canada. I suspect or would guess that in most locals, Gas Fitter does not exist as a stand alone trade in modern times since many Pipe Fitters, Plumbers, and HVAC/R Techs work with natural gas and/or propane.

[MechanicallyInclined]

Are what's called "Fitter" Locals a little bit more HVACR Tech friendly than what's called "Combination" Locals?

[flange]

DVJ is "drives a van journeyman", a lean toward you being aservice jit, lol.

[raven22]

thanks been trying to figure this out for years my old local card said DVJ MES Journeyman i transfered locals now my card say's MTJ Metal Trade Journeyman

[flange]

I honestly have no idea what the dvj is, just busting franks' chops.

[wundumguy]

i am not in NY but my card says DVJ MES
I have no idea what DVJ means? I still make $46 an hour with $22 benefit package 3 pensions and pay the same dues as everybody else!

MES is mechanical equipment service

we do not have A or B

I believe DVJ MES means:
Division Trades Journeyman - Mechanical Equipment Service

[wundumguy]

Are what's called "Fitter" Locals a little bit more HVACR Tech friendly than what's called "Combination" Locals?

One would expect a fitter's local to be less favorable for HVAC/R service technicians since the majority of fitters do not do service work. A service local or HVAC/R service local would be most favorable for HVAC/R service technicians.

The label, combination local is used in the UA Constitution to refer to a local that is chartered to have both a Building Trades Division and a Metal Trades Division. Building Trades generally refers to the direct pipe crafts such as plumber, steam fitter, pipe fitter, refrigeration fitter, sprinkler fitter. Metal trades generally refers to indirect pipe crafts that support or assist the piping industry and/or specialized, niche, support, and sub-crafts such as marine pipe fitter, solar installer, mechanical laborer, irrigation fitter, residential sprinkler fitter.

In casual conversation, the phrase combination local is sometimes used loosely to refer to a local where more than one trade is represented eg., plumbers and pipe fitters. It can also be used loosely to mean a local where both project and service members are represented.

[MechanicallyInclined]

One would expect a fitter's local to be less favorable for HVAC/R service technicians since the majority of fitters do not do service work. A service local or HVAC/R service local would be most favorable for HVAC/R service technicians.

The label, combination local is used in the UA Constitution to refer to a local that is chartered to have both a Building Trades Division and a Metal Trades Division. Building Trades generally refers to the direct pipe crafts such as plumber, steam fitter, pipe fitter, refrigeration fitter, sprinkler fitter. Metal trades generally refers to indirect pipe crafts that support or assist the piping industry and/or specialized, niche, support, and sub-crafts such as marine pipe fitter, solar installer, mechanical laborer, irrigation fitter, residential sprinkler fitter.

In casual conversation, the phrase combination local is sometimes used loosely to refer to a local where more than one trade is represented eg., plumbers and pipe fitters. It can also be used loosely to mean a local where both project and service members are represented.

Well, my friend, you seem more up to speed than the B.A. and B.O. from my home Local. They refer to "Combination Local" as one with Plumbing, Pipefitting, Pipe Welding and HVACR. Those same guys told me that Metal Trades is Residential or Light Commercial (under 25 TR or less the 3 stories/10,000 sq. ft.).
In AZ, NM, OK, and TX all but one Local are Combination Locals, sometimes called a Plumbing Combination Locals. You had mentioned an HVACR Techs Local. Where does one exist? It seems like that would be the best option in this part of the country. It seems everywhere else HVACR is always with the Pipefitters.

[hvacr]

We are strictly a HVACR local UA 787

[supertek65]

abidah

in the union there are different classifications.

one guy may do piping and new construction.

one guy may repair residential HVAC.

one guy may do controls.

one guy may only work on large chillers.

to stay competetive they have different pay scales for different types of work.

faruk

[raven22]

im a metal trades journeyman in nyc and i do no residental all commercial high rise buildings

[MechanicallyInclined]

One would expect a fitter's local to be less favorable for HVAC/R service technicians since the majority of fitters do not do service work. A service local or HVAC/R service local would be most favorable for HVAC/R service technicians.

The label, combination local is used in the UA Constitution to refer to a local that is chartered to have both a Building Trades Division and a Metal Trades Division. Building Trades generally refers to the direct pipe crafts such as plumber, steam fitter, pipe fitter, refrigeration fitter, sprinkler fitter. Metal trades generally refers to indirect pipe crafts that support or assist the piping industry and/or specialized, niche, support, and sub-crafts such as marine pipe fitter, solar installer, mechanical laborer, irrigation fitter, residential sprinkler fitter.

In casual conversation, the phrase combination local is sometimes used loosely to refer to a local where more than one trade is represented eg., plumbers and pipe fitters. It can also be used loosely to mean a local where both project and service members are represented.

According to this, how would any HVACR Tech doing Com. work be Metal Trades?

[raven22]

metal trades is a bad title for hvac service techs got to come up with a more accurate title for what we do, how about Mechanical Equiptment Service Technicians or even Mechanical Trades

[MechanicallyInclined]

Forget about the titles! $15/Hr. less than the Pipe/Steamfitters and Pipe Welders is just ridiculous. Not to mention 3 times less pension contributions. I think NYC is a prime candidate for an HVACR Techs only Local!!

[raven22]

your wright but what always got me is we fix things and keep nyc running what do fitters do run pipe how is this deserve 15 more an hour when we have to be alot smarter to get paid less anybody can run pipe we should be the ones making the most money

[MechanicallyInclined]

There's no way a Pipefitter or Pipe Welder can do HVACR work unless he went thru alot of training. At the very least an HVACR Tech Apprenticeship or trade school. An HVACR Tech can do Pipefitting or Pipe Welding work with little training.
You're right about the demand. Some say Construction Journeyman deserve more pay because they're out-of-work frequently. I'd say get out of the Construction side and into the Service side. Honestly, you're being feed bull ish because Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, and other markets have equal Jm wages be it Construction or Service. If you're in the same Local, there shouldn't be a difference - regardless of the trade.
Of all trades in the UA, which is the one that generates the most revenue in Repair & Maintenance Service?

[flange]

supertek, nice new verbage there, go sell some work would ya?

[Tech Rob]

I came here to see some Tittles.

[supertek65]

a friend of mine back east gave me the idea!
I was feeling pretty down and having a hard time staying grounded!
I feel much better and am sleeping much better now!
I just need to keep doing what I do and do it well!

I have many friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just not at work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


supertek, nice new verbage there, go sell some work would ya?

[supertek65]

seniorsooperdooperteck

is that a title?

I came here to see some Tittles.

[Tech Rob]

seniorsooperdooperteck

is that a title?

nevermind ::facepalm::

I thought if anyone would catch that, you would lol

[allstar08]

your wright but what always got me is we fix things and keep nyc running what do fitters do run pipe how is this deserve 15 more an hour when we have to be alot smarter to get paid less anybody can run pipe we should be the ones making the most money

It was originated as a fitters union, HVAC/R was an add on. Wage parity has always been an issue in our local as well. We finally have gotten within a quarter and considering the economic market place we are satisfied. HVAC/R guys have always been the red headed step child, but when times are tough we get props for bringing in the dough when construction is slow.

[supertek65]

I get it

Tittles!!!!!!

[supertek65]

My football coach was YA Tittle
Former nyg hall of fame qb.

[flange]

construction wages are supposed to be to give a living wage for typically 1200-1400 hours, depending on construction cycles. service wages are slightly lower, but usually result in year round work, PLUS a take home vehicle. total package difference? truck is generally worth about $-$$ per hour, depending on several factors.

[MechanicallyInclined]

construction wages are supposed to be to give a living wage for typically 1200-1400 hours, depending on construction cycles. service wages are slightly lower, but usually result in year round work, PLUS a take home vehicle. total package difference? truck is generally worth about $-$$ per hour, depending on several factors.
Is your Service Jm/HVACR Tech wages $15/Hr. less than the Construction Jm/Pipefitters?! Is you HVACR Techs pension 3 times less than the Pipefitters?! These are huge differences!!

[MechanicallyInclined]

It was originated as a fitters union, HVAC/R was an add on. Wage parity has always been an issue in our local as well. We finally have gotten within a quarter and considering the economic market place we are satisfied. HVAC/R guys have always been the red headed step child, but when times are tough we get props for bringing in the dough when construction is slow.
In my home Local; Construction Plumbers, Construction Pipefitters, Construction Pipe Welders, Service Plumbers and Service HVACR Techs are all level playing field. I believe that works best. :.02:

[Antarctic Fox]

In my home Local; Construction Plumbers, Construction Pipefitters, Construction Pipe Welders, Service Plumbers and Service HVACR Techs are all level playing field. I believe that works best. :.02:

Same in my local, but the pipefitters sometimes have to take a pay cut of up to $5 an hour on projects to compete with non-union construction (right to work for less state). They make out better on an individual basis when they have full time work in a fab shop. I don't know any good HVAC mechanics in my local who can't negotiate several dollars above scale on their own, anyway.

But, yeah, that's not right. I worked in pipefitting until I was twenty, and fitting pipe isn't rocket science. Being a service mechanic requires a hell of a lot more education and reasoning skills than figuring out take-offs on a pipe, and it kinda pisses me off knowing that I've got brothers in the trade making that much less than pipefitters. I don't understand this rationale of "working fewer hours a year, so we need to be paid more". Hey, you know what? I'd much rather do my trade, too, and work 800 fewer hours a year for $15 an hour more.

[Antarctic Fox]

And as it relates to the thread, my card/book reads "DVJ MES Journeyman". I "bought" my book several years ago after testing out at the journeyman level.

As explained to me...
MES -- mechanical equipment service
DVJ -- I've been told this means "divisional journeyman", but that makes "DVJ MES Journeyman" rather redundant. Also, the guys down at my hall aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.

On my dues receipt, though, it says "Trade: Divisional" and "Job Class: Mech Equip Service Jrnymn".

So maybe that's exactly what it is. The first three-letter field on your card is whatever the UA has beside your "trade", and the second three-letter field is your "job class" (with the redundant "journeyman" thrown in afterword).

There's also the consideration that it's probably whatever the hell the lady that collects your dues typed in for the field under your name on your book, that it's highly likely that she doesn't know what the hell it means either because it's just what she was told to put there because "that's the way it's been done in the past", an even better likelihood that NO ONE knows what it means, and that anyone at the hall that tells you that they know what it means is absolutely, totally full of crap, like they are about 99.99% of the things they talk about.

:eek2:
OH MY GOD, I FINALLY UNDERSTAND IT ALL. I'M READY TO WORK FOR THE HALL FULL-TIME. :Faint:

[MechanicallyInclined]

So there's Construction, Service & Divisional? Would MES be classed as Service? Bldg. Trades, Metal Trades, etc., now I'm lost! Isn't MESJm the same as an HVACR Tech Jm?!

[Antarctic Fox]

Hold on a sec ... *drinks more beer*

So...I'll just share with you my observations on my local union as a bare-minimum participant. Your mileage may vary, because obviously in some of the locals you other guys are in, journeymen are not all equal. In mine, a journeyman is a journeyman is a journeyman, none of this Animal Farm "but some animals are more equal than others" bullcrap. And I think that's where part of the problem comes in. It's not the same at every local union.

I did not go through the complete UA apprenticeship program. I did something like three and a half years of it, and then I was offered a job overseas, and I said, "See ya later". No regrets at all. Ten years later, I move back to my home city. I decide that I want to work as an HVAC mechanic there again after a few semesters at the city university, and the local offers to test me out as a journeyman because of all my experiences. Day long test on HVACR service work. I pass with flying colors. All HVACR stuff. No welding. No fittting. Just straight up service work.

So as it's explained to me, that's what the "divisional" -- for me -- means. I don't fit pipe. I don't weld. I'm certified strictly as a mechanical equipment services (HVACR) journeyman.

In my local, when we have meetings at whatever company we work for, we usually initial our job class beside our name on the roll. The overwhelming majority of the HVAC guys went through the apprentice program, and they put "BTJ" (Building Trades Journeyman) by their name. In addition to learning the HVAC trade, they had to learn to fit pipe and weld. For most of them, that doesn't mean crap. The only time they ever fit pipe or welded was at the apprentice school. There are a few that can weld like nobody's business, and they're the guys you need when you need to run a hot tap on a chilled water line. Most of them -- no. They waited to take their welding class until the last semester so they wouldn't be rusty on their break-out test, and that's the last time they welded.

I'm in the minority that puts "MESJ" (mechanical equipment services journeyman) by my name. I've heard that can be a source of snobbery in my local from the guys who get to put "BTJ' by their names, but I've never gotten that personally. Mainly because I usually end up as the guy in the service department that's doing other mechanics' callbacks. I may not be able to weld, but I can sure find what you missed on a service call, and I can be your buddy or burn you over it. So it's best not to be a snob to me.

So there you go. I don't do any construction, and I'm not an HVAC mechanic that doubles as a pipefitter or pipewelder. I just have the ability to figure out what's wrong with crap, so I'm a journeyman.

[valdelocc]

As explained to me...
MES -- mechanical equipment service
DVJ -- I've been told this means "divisional journeyman", but that makes "DVJ MES Journeyman" rather redundant. Also, the guys down at my hall aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[/B] :Faint:

In my local most service guys are BTJ, the MES guys are typically former scabs on probation or filter changers, they make somewhere between 60 to 80% of BTJ pay and a lot less fringes.

[MechanicallyInclined]

My card says "Building Trades Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter". If that's not a UA made up title, I don't know what is. Are you using the acronym MES as Mechanical Equipment Serviceman? Or as Mechanical Equipment Service, being substituted for HVACR?
In your professional opinion, what should a UA HVACR Tech be under BT, MT, DT or something else? A little further something on the Locals, I'm in a Plumbing (Combo) Local. As HVACR, we're dead last of the trades being repped.
To the other guy:

Divisional Trades
Mechanical Equipment Service
Service Journeyman

Is this correct?

[MechanicallyInclined]

Here goes my 3 liner:
Building Trades
Refrigeration Pipefitter
Service Journeyman

Can "Service", specifically HVACR Service honestly be Building Trades? A little off topic, but what would a Service Plumber be under?

[valdelocc]

Here goes my 3 liner:
Building Trades
Refrigeration Pipefitter
Service Journeyman

Can "Service", specifically HVACR Service honestly be Building Trades? A little off topic, but what would a Service Plumber be under?

My card reads "BTJ steamfitter", and to answer your question, at least in my local most service techs are capable of running pipe and unclogging toilets, we are the best rounded guys, plumbers-fitters cant do our jobs but we are more than qualify to do theirs, if any we should be pay more.

[MechanicallyInclined]

Are you in a Plumbing Combo Local or a Pipefitters Local? I see alot of Pipefitter Local back east refer to themselves as Steamfitters. I think "Refrigeration Pipefitter" seems weird, imagine "Refrigeration Steamfitter"!

[Antarctic Fox]

In my local most service guys are BTJ, the MES guys are typically former scabs on probation or filter changers, they make somewhere between 60 to 80% of BTJ pay and a lot less fringes.

Same in our local. "Tradesmen" get paid significantly less and have fewer benefits. In essence, "tradesmen" are scabs hired off the street by the company. There's one company I can think of around here that hires that way. It's essentially "union in name only" -- hiring and paying a journeyman is the last thing they want to do.

Well, as far as UA card "tittles" go, I think the only thing we can say conclusively from all the responses in this thread is that all these terms are applied differently from local to local.

[OpenDrive]

I was issued one of these cards when I started. It means Division Vocation Journeyman --Mechanical Equipment Serviceman. I was promptly told by a more knowledgeable person in union matters after a couple of years doing Chiller/Process work that I was getting screwed, and that this designation meant that they didn't have to pay you scale. I hired in with 5 years chiller experience, so I didnt go through the program. The company used it as a "try it before you buy it" plan. I complained and got it changed to BTJ Pipefitter. A certain nationally known service organization (not Carrier, so guess who) hires people with these cards and sticks them on full maintenance contracts so they don't have to give them a raise throughout the length of the full maintenance contract. I have apprentices that are classified as MES who don't get a raise for 4 years. They have to change jobs and get reclassified as apprentices to get the BTJ card

[OpenDrive]

Also I think it is funny how we as a union ( the UA) would like to expand and get more members to sign up, but then others in above posts refer to people as "Scabs" or "Union in name only." Maybe this is an up-north phenomenon, but if we are to thrive and grow as a union; we must shed the opinion that many have of us as rude and "overpaid and overpriced." Down here in the South, locals have to persuade and sell union membership. In other words, we have to attract members. There are no closed shops where union membership is mandatory. And most heavy commercial/industrial techs are dues paying members by choice. I don't consider myself a better human being than my non-union counterparts; but I do consider myself to be blessed to belong to the UA, and my Non-union counterparts are missing out on a good thing.

[MechanicallyInclined]

I agree with you on that. I don't see why Daikin-McQuay, Emcor, Hill-Phoenix, Hussmann, and Trane won't become Union across the board.