Delta Controls resources

[birchy]

A few questions:

1) Not happy with the Delta Controls "partner" that installed our system (in three phases). Their techs don't seem to know the systems very well and we end up spending premium prices for ineffective, bumbling service. Is it possible to buy product and support from other partners, or are you stuck with the vendor in your territory?

2) Is there a forum for Delta Controls customers to share tips on customizing and troubleshooting?

3) I intend to spend some time next year developing my own front end to do things that OrcaView won't. For example, we are an events facility and OrcaView is built for office buildings where the room schedules don't change that often. I'm going to have software change the schedules automatically using data from a third party event scheduling program. Anyone want to collaborate? I'll be using the SCADA engine to communicate to the BACNET system.

[bryan l]

I understand your pain. I work with a large in house company that has allot of Delta CRAP in use. The equipment is very unreliable, always failing. The Techs are clueless as to what they are doing, it appears that the company has hired allot of Electrical guys to do a job they cant wrap their head around. (because they wont pay a Fridge guy the wages we want). I have tried to get help from them and its useless. They charge over $1000 for the dongle alone for OrcaView. They have set-up the systems so that you must call them. Very uncool. If it was my call in the company I would yank it all, I know the cost involved but it costs us more in the long run to keep this crap.


OK im off the soap box for now, someone else can step up and rant :)

[acme-controls]

birch, it sounds like your delta partner really blows. about scheduling, very easy to customize and it should have all flexibility required

what vintage of product are you running ( orcaview version, orcaweb, ... )

i can help you with this stuff.

[birchy]

I think the owner knows his stuff, but the current crop of techs sure "underwhelm" me every time I dig out the wallet.

With respect to the scheduling interface, my biggest beef is that it is constantly updating, so you have to race to the "Apply" button every time you change anything. On a room that sees a lot of non-reoccuring bookings, I may have to hit the Apply button a dozen times when I do my weekly scheduling, and re-enter an edit once or twice because I made the edit just before the refresh cycle. This is if I have the refresh cycle maxed out at 60 secs. And when you hit the Apply button, you have to wait for the system to finish before you make your next edit. It would be nice if you could turn the refresh off entirely while you are scheduling. But that's an issue that will diminish for me in a few months, if I'm successful in creating software to change those schedules automatically.

We're running OrcaView 3.22. We were thinking of upgrading next year, as part of a service agreement, but Delta forwarded my inquiry to the current vendor and I don't know if we'll still have a relationship next year. Frankly, with the service history so far, we might be better off on our own.

[sysint]

Isn't this an open protocol bacnet system?

Don't the controllers have either a dip or rotary switch for their addresses?

Why can't you simply load them into a bacnet database with a different front end SCADA and be done with them?

[birchy]

Though quirky and buggy, OrcaView is probably as good or better than any other front end. It does *some* things really well. I doubt that there are any other front ends that would do the auto scheduling that I need, automatically reading data from a proprietary Parabox database, and applying a set of rules and adjustments before using that data to adjust every BACNET schedule object, every hour or so. In time, I intend to replace the scheduling software with a homegrown version as well, to overcome its limitations. As an example, we need to automate whether a particular event is publicized in two different forms, one a print and the other a video media.

[birchy]

As for cutting the Delta vendor loose, I don't have much nuts and bolts expertise (yet), and if there are hardware problems, I really need a pro to come in and fix, upgrade/reconfig, etc. I can deal with the software issues, with enough time and perhaps some help from others.

[sysint]

"automatically reading data from a proprietary Parabox database, and applying a set of rules and adjustments before using that data to adjust every BACNET schedule object, every hour or so."

-- sounds like an ideal situation for a server with a XML/SOAP interface. We have taken a "proprietary application" and transferred the translated schedules into a Lonworks server to write the scheduling the way we wanted. We had a manual load option and an automatic. But, that was Lonworks, so it was fairly easy to do and inexpensive. Somebody should have something similar for bacnet by now, and since bacnet is open you should simply have to review the information for that OrcaView box because if it is a supervisory controller, it should have some form of IP access.

"a pro to come in and fix, upgrade/reconfig, etc." --- sounds like a bacnet problem to me....

[tripper]

Originally posted by birchy

With respect to the scheduling interface, my biggest beef is that it is constantly updating, so you have to race to the "Apply" button every time you change anything.
Hi Birchy, has been a couple of years since I was putting this stuff in but may be able to help, in orcaview if you minimise your graphic screen and look at navigator down the bottom right (or left?) there is a small symbal, you right click on that and it is your update time, sounds like yours is set to 1sec, change this to 10 sec or other then you will be able to change your weekly/annual schedules and then apply befor the schedule is read (updated) from the controller,
hope this helps

[birchy]

Thanks, but as I said in comments..

"This is if I have the refresh cycle maxed out at 60 secs. "

...I've already set this to the maximum setting. If the refresh cycle were set shorter, the task would go from "merely frustrating" to "impossible".

You have to understand that I'm sitting there with each schedule window open for .5 to 4 minutes, comparing the existing "ON" blocks to the weekly schedule printout in my hand. The chances are fairly good that sometime in that time span, I'm going to try to make an edit (which takes about 5 to 15 seconds, depending on the nature of the edit), that falls into that 60 second cycle. The editing interface can be tricky. To extend or contract an existing time block, you have to click on it to select it, and then click on the edge to grab and move the edge. The tolerance for grabbing that edge is too thin, so sometimes you end up deselecting the block and having to start over. And all the while, you know the refresh cycle is coming around again and just might destroy your edit just before you have time to race down and click the "Apply" button. It can be quite maddening.

Now if these conrtols were for office space (some of them are, actually), then fighting the refresh cycle when making the occasional change to the schedule wouldn't be so bad.

[acme-controls]

birch, what's the buildin your controllers. 3.22 ORCAview should not be the problem. sounds like the Delta partner did not install compatable builds of controllers and software.

i know that you think the partner sucks, but if you can bring yourself to request them to upgrade you to 3.30 ORCAview and at least build 86265 firmware, then i think your problems will go away.

i've worked with Delta for 10 years, all upgrades up from 'version 2', and have not seen or heard this complaint before.

[birchy]

We have a hybrid of v2 and v3, plus a Trane Summit panel gatewayed in. All of it is behind a DSC-1616EX.

Of course, most of the rooms that change schedules the most are on the v2 side.

We will upgrade the software to 3.30 *if* we opt for a proposed service agreement, but I don't think I can cost-justify the agreement (still evaluating, waiting for more data), nor is it probably prudent to increase our involvement with the partner any more than absolutely necessary. If we don't do the service agreement, I doubt it would be worth the cost of paying for the upgrade, since I plan to build a second frontend. The upgrade adds Crystal Reports, new graphics, better trending, etc. You can also buy an ODBC option, but it is read-only, else I wouldn't have to use the SCADA engine and build an additional frontend. You can buy an additional "Historian" feature that allows you to archive data, but again, I'll do that with the frontend that I'm building, and can have better trending if I want to build it. So, the only reason I'm bothering building our own frontend is to automate and integrate the scheduling. But while I'm at it, I'll avoid having to buy Historian and ODBC, and possibly the upgrade.

Our v2 side is controlled by an old MiniTurbo ICP-025 which is coaxed to the main v3 panel. The partner recommends that we replace it with another DSC-1616EX, since they can't replace/repair the ICP-025 anymore. They assure me that they can connect the existing v2 zone controllers (many of which are IZD-205s) and the single MicroPanel IZU-240 to the DSC-1616EX without problems.

[acme-controls]

i got a better understanding of what you have there now.

it will take a very good tech to make all that V2-V3 stuff work seemlessly. i've done some, and it ain't pretty.

knowing how good it can work, if i was sitting there, i would get delta partner to upgrade all V2 to V3 over a 5 year agreement and then the system would work well.

whoever your employer is, he better have good life insurance on you, because if and when you leave, there will be few people around that will be able to fix this complexity that your building.

good luck to ya.

[birchy]

Originally posted by acme-controls
whoever your employer is, he better have good life insurance on you, because if and when you leave, there will be few people around that will be able to fix this complexity that your building.

Well, my stuff only adds function to what we have now, so if I get hit by a bus, they can always fall back if they have to.

[tripper]

Originally posted by birchy
. To extend or contract an existing time block, you have to click on it to select it, and then click on the edge to grab and move the edge. The tolerance for grabbing that edge is too thin, so sometimes you end up deselecting the block and having to start over.

sorry birchy didnt read the bit about 'refresh 60s', I might be wrong but I if you double click the time block instead of using the "drag" method you can manually put in start/stop times which is heaps quicker, I know this is true for orca3.3 ., short of that your delta partner should be able to custon the weekly shedule dialogue box 'using their graphics dongle' to stop refreshing or pretty well anything you want (changing the hidden macros for the dialogue box). I know I have done this for others. It sounds more like your graphics are not set up for your application.

[zxchief]

My fellow hvac partners in crime, I mean work, excuse me, I am fairly new to the game concerning the use of orca view. I've inherited the reasponsibilities of a fallen comrade. I've inherited a spa and all the catch 22's of satisfing a lot of lady folk. "I'm too hot","I'm too cold", unbelieveable. This set-up offers the control of so many variables with-in the aaon systems at this particular facility, any of yous guys willing to offer any tips for a new system operator?

[tripper]

what particular information are you after zxchief?

[amsolo]

to zxchief:

I'd suggest that you upgrade you space sensor to one with a setpoint adjustment. You can limit the range to say +/- 2º. Then the ladies will take care of it themselves. This all assumes that the AHU is working properly.

[birchy]

Originally posted by tripper

...I might be wrong but I if you double click the time block instead of using the "drag" method you can manually put in start/stop times which is heaps quicker, I know this is true for orca3.3 ., short of that your delta partner should be able to custon the weekly shedule dialogue box 'using their graphics dongle' to stop refreshing or pretty well anything you want (changing the hidden macros for the dialogue box). I know I have done this for others. It sounds more like your graphics are not set up for your application. [/B]

Ah, very interesting! You've exposed an area that I was unaware of, but had suspicions about.

I do sometimes use the keyboard entry, but for me, that is almost as cumbersome as re-soing every third mouse-drag edit. And that is only because you *have* to either enter the colon in each (start time and end time) box, or you have to fight the horrible Windows text selection interface to select and replace the hours and minutes (4 total selections). I could maybe configure a keyboard utility to generate a colon without using a shift key but those are usually more trouble than they are worth. Also, entering the times by keyboard is a lot of hand moving, back and forth from mouse to keyboard. My other hand is keeping my place on the schedule printout.

All that said, I have had people tell me that their OrcaView doesn't have the refresh problem. And sometimes mine doesn't either. I thought it might be a difference between the first schedule edited and the rest, but it seems more like the v2 schedules behave and the v3 schedules mis-behave. I'll give that theory a solid test next Monday. I had one v3 schedule behave during one test, but it has returned to the bad behavior ever since then. This was the main schedule on the main panel.

[tripper]

How did you go on this Birchy?

[birchy]

I confirmed that the refresh doesn't interfere on the v2 schedules, just the v3.22 ones. Using the type method isn't any real advantage, as I still have to race to the "apply" button, regardless of whether I use mouse or keyboard entry. If it refreshes while dragging with mouse, then I'm as safe as if the keyboard entry control is open. I will try to edit the v3 schedule template someday... if I can find it.

[birchy]

I had problems editing schedules in OrcaView (which I do twice a week, as we are an events hosting facility) in the v3 schedules, the edits would disappear within a few seconds.

Changing the Tools>Setup>Current User>User Data>Refresh Rate for Objects from the default of 5 seconds to 60 seconds did the trick. Apparently v2 objects aren't auto refreshed.