housing market

[AStudent]

So the other day I hear Rush Limbaugh say the housing market is a direct correlation of how well the American economy is.

Today I read that home sales at the national level is at a two year high. Is Obama as bad as we think? Is the economy finally stabilizing?

[ControlsInMT]

When you're in the crapper, just because you can reach the toilet seat doesn't mean you are safe yet.....

[Six]

So the other day I hear Rush Limbaugh say the housing market is a direct correlation of how well the American
economy is.

Today I read that home sales at the national level is at a two year high. Is Obama as bad as we think? Is the economy finally stabilizing?

Astudent how many people are on Food stamps ? How many are chronically unemployed ? Are there more and more people ( a record ) now claiming that they're disabled because their unemployment benefits have run out ?

Whats been the average rate of growth of the US GDP since nimrods inaugeration ?

Why for the last 4 years have we been losing 400k jobs a week ?

Why is there a record amount of people who have dropped out of the work force ?

And the housing market is at a record all time low. Lower now than in the great depression with cities going bankrupt and our debt 6 trillion higher.

Answer those questions before claiming that we're in a recovery.

[Space Racer]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-13/fed-plans-to-buy-40-billion-in-mortgage-securities-each-month.html

Bernanke is an enabler -- the bad kind.

The Fed is supporting Congress's bad spending habits. Injecting the market with phony cash only puts off the outcome and makes it worse. It's like giving vodka to an alcoholic. We'll feel good for a while, but sooner or later we're gonna get the DT's.

[Tool-Slinger]

Astudent how many people are on Food stamps ? How many are chronically unemployed ? Are there more and more people ( a record ) now claiming that they're disabled because their unemployment benefits have run out ?

Whats been the average rate of growth of the US GDP since nimrods inaugeration ?

Why for the last 4 years have we been losing 400k jobs a week ?

Why is there a record amount of people who have dropped out of the work force ?

And the housing market is at a record all time low. Lower now than in the great depression with cities going bankrupt and our debt 6 trillion higher.

Answer those questions before claiming that we're in a recovery.

Correct. And see this on housing sales:

http://www.census.gov/construction/nrs/pdf/soldann.pdf

In '09 '10 '11 US housing sales were the lowest in history as far as this record dates back to 1963. While any improvement is certainly good news, just look at the left column on that chart and you can see how dismal it still is even with some gains.

Feeling good about minor gains in the housing market,... is sort of like a feller having 4 flat tires on his truck then proudly discovering his spare tire is in perfect condition. LOL

[AStudent]

Astudent how many people are on Food stamps ? How many are chronically unemployed ? Are there more and more people ( a record ) now claiming that they're disabled because their unemployment benefits have run out ?

Whats been the average rate of growth of the US GDP since nimrods inaugeration ?

Why for the last 4 years have we been losing 400k jobs a week ?

Why is there a record amount of people who have dropped out of the work force ?

And the housing market is at a record all time low. Lower now than in the great depression with cities going bankrupt and our debt 6 trillion higher.

Answer those questions before claiming that we're in a recovery.

If people lose their homes, like what happened in 2008 they can't have jobs or hold them. You can't get a job without a permanent address, the economy and job growth are closely tied to the housing market. If the housing market goes up so will employment.

I would give a Better response but I'm on break at work

[Six]

If people lose their homes, like what happened in 2008 they can't have jobs or hold
them. You can't get a job without a permanent address, the economy and job growth are closely tied to the housing market. If the housing market goes up so will employment.

I would give a Better response but I'm on break at work

You have it backwards and Im not sure why.

There are no jobs. So people are losing their homes.

There is no confidence or demand and because of punitive policies from you know who corporations and investors are holding on to their capital.

The Feds capital injections to buy toxic MBS does little for the guy who's been unemployed for 2 years.

Banks will still not loan because they dont have to ( the fed is paying interest on those banks reserves )...money by law the are suppose to keep on hand.

It's just a desperate attempt by the Obama apologist to make something out of nothing and fool the voters who are dumb enough and gullible enough to buy into it.

[AStudent]

I love how everything good in this world is fake....this website has helped me to realize this, maybe if Romney wins everything bad will be fake instead.

Think I will go eat some non existent cherry pie now.

[Southern Mech]

I love how everything good in this world is
fake....this website has helped me to realize this, maybe if Romney wins everything bad will be fake instead.

Think I will go eat some non existent cherry pie now.

I am with you there my friend, I am with you

[Space Racer]

Let's say you are a one-man country. You live on a very small island you own in the North Pacific. Other people live on the island, but they are residents, not citizens. They live by your rules. Some of them work for you.

You make a living by building widgets and selling them to small companies in various Pacific Rim nations. You import the raw materials. You borrow money from Singapore from time to time to keep your operation running smoothly. You make a profit after expenses of 10%. You plow half of your profit back into the company. You put the other half in the bank.

You have started your own small bank. You take deposits from and make loans to the residents of your island. This is the bank where you put your own money.

You started your bank with a $100,000 deposit. This is money you generated from your business. This is real money.

Now let's say you go into the computer and add a zero to the 100,000, making it 1,000,000. Have you increased your wealth? No. You have injected $900,000 of phony money. You have devalued your currency.

You have made yourself appear to be wealthier than you are. You have taken the first step in building a house of cards.

You are a Bernanke.

[Six]

I love how everything good in this world is fake....this website has helped me to
realize this, maybe if Romney wins everything bad will be fake instead.

Think I will go eat some non existent cherry pie now.


Astudent you just have to learn to side with logic, knowledge and truth instead of hope, whim and emotion.

The people who build their reality on false hope, lies and misinformation will fall down around you as you move through life.

There is an old saying if you're a Conservative as a young man you have no heart, if you're a Liberal as a old man you have no brain.

Its all part of maturing into a thoughtul, intelligent and honest productive member of society.

Its up to you when you want to stop wasting your time and realize the left is the party built on a massive foundation of lies.

[AStudent]

Astudent you just have to learn to side with logic, knowledge and truth instead of hope, whim and emotion.

The people who build their reality on false hope, lies and misinformation will fall down around you as you move through life.

There is an old saying if you're a Conservative as a young man you have no heart, if you're a Liberal as a old man you have no brain.

Its all part of maturing into a thoughtul, intelligent and honest productive member of society.

Its up to you when you want to stop wasting your time and realize the left is the party built on a massive foundation of lies.

Ok...I'm the one drinking the kool-aid...and the right is the best.

You have convinced me.....

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

[Tool-Slinger]

Ok...I'm the one drinking the kool-aid...and the right is the best.

You have convinced me.....

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

That was a courageous post.

[Vinster]

Ok...I'm the one drinking the kool-aid...and the right is the best.

You have convinced me.....

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

This is exactly why the country is in the ****ter. Both sides are incompetent, If the Republicans had all right the answes ther would be no Democratic party and if the Democrats had all the right answers there would be know Republican party.

[AStudent]

This is exactly why the country is in the ****ter. Both sides are incompetent, If the Republicans had all right the answes ther would be no Democratic party and if the Democrats had all the right answers there would be know Republican party.

I agree with you, although I have heard more willingness to work together from the democrats, if it's true or not I'm not sure.

[Six]

I agree with you, although I have heard more willingness to work together from the democrats, if it's true or not I'm not sure.

It's not.

Of course its not.

[ga-hvac-tech]

If people lose their homes, like what happened in 2008 they can't have jobs or hold them. You can't get a job without a permanent address, the economy and job growth are closely tied to the housing market. If the housing market goes up so will employment.

I would give a Better response but I'm on break at work

Nothing personal student... however:

This is observational economics... rather than historical economics.

The difference is: The first is what someone sees and WANTS to believe... the latter is what history says has worked repeatedly for decades, generations, centuries, even Milena...

So which one would a smart person believe?

(Hint... when discussing anything about money... one must have the self discipline to leave their hope and greed and fear... in other words ALL feelings at the door of their office... or they will not make wise decisions).

[Space Racer]

Let's say you are a one-man country. You live on a very small island you own in the North Pacific. Other people live on the island, but they are residents, not citizens. They live by your rules. Some of them work for you.

You make a living by building widgets and selling them to small companies in various Pacific Rim nations. You import the raw materials. You borrow money from Singapore from time to time to keep your operation running smoothly. You make a profit after expenses of 10%. You plow half of your profit back into the company. You put the other half in the bank.

You have started your own small bank. You take deposits from and make loans to the residents of your island. This is the bank where you put your own money.

You started your bank with a $100,000 deposit. This is money you generated from your business. This is real money.

Now let's say you go into the computer and add a zero to the 100,000, making it 1,000,000. Have you increased your wealth? No. You have injected $900,000 of phony money. You have devalued your currency.

You have made yourself appear to be wealthier than you are. You have taken the first step in building a house of cards.

You are a Bernanke.

Can you get wealthy this way? Yes, of course. You can loan more money and collect more interest. You can invest your bank profits in assets that appreciate in value.

Not only that, you can help your residents buy nice houses.

But what else happens to the residents? Over a period of time, prices go up and buying power goes down. Their money is now only worth one tenth of what it was before the injection. So are their retirement accounts. Soon, all their money goes to food and clothing. They have nothing left to pay the mortgage with.

If your intention was to help your residents buy nice houses in which to live out their lives, you have accomplished the exact opposite.

They would have been better off renting from you.

[Six]

Ok...I'm the one drinking the kool-aid...and the right is the best.

You have convinced me.....

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"


Awesome Astudent.

The first step towards recovery is admitting your a raging leftist lunatic.

And I DID get the sarcasm in your post. My advice remains. How much time are you going to waste in the throws of moral relativism and misinformation ?

[ga-hvac-tech]

Let's say you are a one-man country. You live on a very small island you own in the North Pacific. Other people live on the island, but they are residents, not citizens. They live by your rules. Some of them work for you.

You make a living by building widgets and selling them to small companies in various Pacific Rim nations. You import the raw materials. You borrow money from Singapore from time to time to keep your operation running smoothly. You make a profit after expenses of 10%. You plow half of your profit back into the company. You put the other half in the bank.

You have started your own small bank. You take deposits from and make loans to the residents of your island. This is the bank where you put your own money.

You started your bank with a $100,000 deposit. This is money you generated from your business. This is real money.

Now let's say you go into the computer and add a zero to the 100,000, making it 1,000,000. Have you increased your wealth? No. You have injected $900,000 of phony money. You have devalued your currency.

You have made yourself appear to be wealthier than you are. You have taken the first step in building a house of cards.

You are a Bernanke.

What one needs to understand about devaluing their currency is: When this happens it takes MORE of the currency to buy the same thing... this is called price inflation.

So the FED (at the request of the govt, or maybe on their own for selfish reasons... will discuss that in another post), prints more $$$ to keep the (phony) books working... What good does this do if it causes the price of living to go up? Before we answer this question... lets remember that price inflation has two serious downsides:

1) IT tends to destroy the value of savings... thus life becomes a bit closer to 'week to week'.... Yet there is a worse issue:
2) When we have price inflation... we also need wage inflation to catch up... However: This raises the average person into a higher income tax bracket... so they loose again.
(In GA's opinion, bumping folks into a higher tax bracket is the reason govts like price inflation... it is a hidden way to spread the power and wealth of polecats).

So tell me: Is printing endless $$$ the solution... or is it just a bandaid?

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ok...I'm the one drinking the kool-aid...and the right is the best.

You have convinced me.....

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

So how does one teach another something they have yet to see? Especially when they are rebelling against listening.

It takes a wiser and smarter person to listen, than to argue.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I agree with you, although I have heard more willingness to work together from the democrats, if it's true or not I'm not sure.

What is the history of Dems working together...

Seems the research I read the Dems come along as smooth as a used car salesguy (gal)... and end up defaulting on their end of the deal.

[hearthman]

Real estate markets are extremely regional. Even within one metropolitan area you can have polar opposites depending upon the type of housing, economy, local factors, etc. National real estate numbers are virtually useless. It is more of the overall picture of housing starts and the types of that housing, re-sales, foreclosures, short sales, rental conversions, etc. AND look at mfg. For instance, about 75% of the factory built fireplace market was from the new construction channel/ 25% remodeling. While that ratio may hold, the gross numbers tell a story. Installing distributors of these products have all but folded up. The few suvivors are hanging on by a thread. My old region closed 4 offices and cut staff by about 90%. Not much of a recovery. Even the work they get is at cut-throat margins so their net profit margin is below 10% in many cases, which is inconsistent with business survival. The few trades who do new construction work are getting raped not only on their margins but then are beat into a pulp over free warranty and service even when it clearly is not the fault of the product or installer. Around here, the Realtors are having trouble posting all their listings and don't know where to start with so many listings for a buyer to choose from. My daughter's row home has been on the market since June at $30K short and still has yet for one single buyer to even look at it because there is such a glut in the supply. Her house is in great shape btw. So save your breath telling me real estate is recovering. To get anywhere near tolerable, they will have to sell off a massive inventory first. Also, since nobody can afford to maintain their homes, these homes being sold are loaded with defects resulting in an increase in litigation with sellers, Realtors and Home Inspectors. New home buyers are having to accept getting screwed on eating defects they cannot afford to fix. We have a LOT of really crappy, sick houses out there and that problem is really growning worse. You guys see how people cut corners instead of fixing it the right way and not buying premium add-ons and upgrades.

[AStudent]

So how does one teach another something they have yet to see? Especially when they are rebelling against listening.

It takes a wiser and smarter person to listen, than to argue.

Very true, and I am listening, but the whole idea of everything the other party does is wrong and everything my party does is right, is getting a little old.

[Gib's Son]

Very true, and I am listening, but the whole idea of everything the other party does is wrong and everything my party does is right, is getting a little old.

Ignore party lines and critically think through what that individual is saying, does, and how they live their life. Then, follow your conscience. There are feces on all sides of the sanitary waste pipe.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Very true, and I am listening, but the whole idea of everything the other party does is wrong and everything my party does is right, is getting a little old.

How about this:

Rather than DEM and GOP... or even Lib and Cons... lets try 'Historically it works' and 'Historically it does not work'; and lets define works as producing long term, lasting and predictable results that benefit the max number of folks evenly, not particularly equally--what I mean is: Rather than everyone gets $100... everyone gets a fair chance to EARN as much as they are willing to work for.
BTW: Need to sample LOTS of history, not just one or two examples; and over a long term rather than a short term.

Do you think this may be a better way to address solutions?

[Six]

Very true, and I am listening, but the whole idea of everything the other party
does is wrong and everything my party does is right, is getting a little old.

Astudent just because I offer up arguments against the progressives doesn't mean I haven't at one time vetted all political possibillities.

With a effort towards objectivness I've studdied both liberal and Democrat view points and how their policies affect our society.

Point is sooner or later you have to have the courage and conviction to chose a side and support the idealogy that best fits your personally.

If the liberal Democrats have 3 good policies and 50 highly destructive policies I am not going to offer up my support for a party that will ultimately cause harm to the Country my kids and grand kids have to grow up in.

The floating around and trying to be a people pleaser or to try and cherry pick from both parties ideas that you agree with isn't practical.

Its not how politics work.

So I've chosen a side, and I have decided to ignore the maybe 3 or 4 decent ideas the Democrats have ( I cant think of one but for arguments sake..) and suppport the party that best exemplifies my values.

Get it ??

Just saying you can only float in relative ville for so long.

[exreo]

Ok...I'm the one drinking the kool-aid...and the right is the best.

You have convinced me.....

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

....and the libertarians are the ones smoking the green leaf--haha.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Astudent just because I offer up arguments against the progressives doesn't mean I haven't at one time vetted all political possibillities.

With a effort towards objectivness I've studdied both liberal and Democrat view points and how their policies affect our society.

Point is sooner or later you have to have the courage and conviction to chose a side and support the idealogy that best fits your personally.

If the liberal Democrats have 3 good policies and 50 highly destructive policies I am not going to offer up my support for a party that will ultimately cause harm to the Country my kids and grand kids have to grow up in.

The floating around and trying to be a people pleaser or to try and cherry pick from both parties ideas that you agree with isn't practical.

Its not how politics work.

So I've chosen a side, and I have decided to ignore the maybe 3 or 4 decent ideas the Democrats have ( I cant think of one but for arguments sake..) and suppport the party that best exemplifies my values.

Get it ??

Just saying you can only float in relative ville for so long.

If I may be so bold to add a thought:

When choosing... one needs to put their idealistic hat away and put on their pragmatic and 'its GOTTA work' hat. To choose a political philosophy just because it feels good... with no track record of it working... well this seems to go along with the idea that one can p*ss into the wind without getting p**d upon... Ever see someone get away with that one?

My point is: It has to WORK... or it is not a good idea. And history has more than enough track record of what works and what does not.

[ga-hvac-tech]

....and the libertarians are the ones smoking the green leaf--haha.

Actually, in GA's opinion, the Libertarians are the wiser ones... just hard to get the minions to wisen up when they do not want to... <grin>

[the mojo]

Real estate markets are extremely regional. Even within one metropolitan area you can have polar opposites depending upon the type of housing, economy, local factors, etc. National real estate numbers are virtually useless. It is more of the overall picture of housing starts and the types of that housing, re-sales, foreclosures, short sales, rental conversions, etc. AND look at mfg. For instance, about 75% of the factory built fireplace market was from the new construction channel/ 25% remodeling. While that ratio may hold, the gross numbers tell a story. Installing distributors of these products have all but folded up. The few suvivors are hanging on by a thread. My old region closed 4 offices and cut staff by about 90%. Not much of a recovery. Even the work they get is at cut-throat margins so their net profit margin is below 10% in many cases, which is inconsistent with business survival. The few trades who do new construction work are getting raped not only on their margins but then are beat into a pulp over free warranty and service even when it clearly is not the fault of the product or installer. Around here, the Realtors are having trouble posting all their listings and don't know where to start with so many listings for a buyer to choose from. My daughter's row home has been on the market since June at $30K short and still has yet for one single buyer to even look at it because there is such a glut in the supply. Her house is in great shape btw. So save your breath telling me real estate is recovering. To get anywhere near tolerable, they will have to sell off a massive inventory first. Also, since nobody can afford to maintain their homes, these homes being sold are loaded with defects resulting in an increase in litigation with sellers, Realtors and Home Inspectors. New home buyers are having to accept getting screwed on eating defects they cannot afford to fix. We have a LOT of really crappy, sick houses out there and that problem is really growning worse. You guys see how people cut corners instead of fixing it the right way and not buying premium add-ons and upgrades.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/blackstone-to-buy-1-billion-worth-of-tampa-bay-homes-for-rentals/1252624


Yes the real estate market loses are regional, huge in some areas and less in others but now Freddie and Fannie are into rentals as well as Blackstone private equity fund,now with Ben's buy back program of 40 billion a month in MBS it will redefine the markets. This is what should have happened from the get go when the bubble started to burst. At least families even though will have to rent for life will have a roof over their heads.

[the mojo]

Actually, in GA's opinion, the Libertarians are the wiser ones... just hard to get the minions to wisen up when they do not want to... <grin>

Yes we are as America contracts even further due to debt.

The markets should have been allowed to correct for themselves without goverment intervention. FEN

[Six]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/
realestate/blackstone-to-buy-1-billion-worth-of-tampa-bay-homes-for-rentals/1252624


Yes the real estate market loses are regional, huge in some areas and less in others but now Freddie and Fannie are into rentals as well as Blackstone private equity fund,now with Ben's buy back program of 40 billion a month in MBS it will redefine the markets. This is what should have happened from the get go when the bubble started to burst. At least families even though will have to rent for life will have a roof over their ..:'(.heads.

What should have happened from the get go is Government housing policies to supply easy and cheap credit to minories and/or people with questionable credit should have never been implemented.

Barney Franks American Affordable Housing Act and the Community Reinvestment were directly to blame for the sub-prime meltdown and the bubble.

And all in the interest of "equality and fairness".

By 1995 over 55% of loans bought and packaged off to investment banks by freddie abd Fannie HAD TO BE sub-prime.

Bernakes buying off of toxic MBS accomplishes nothing positive and punishes people like me and my kids and my grand kids and their grand kids for stupid progressive redistributive policies.

I didn't go and get a sub prime loan. But I and every other American that knew this was a terrible idea get to pay for it with a diminished dollar and a debt that will never be payed off and a crap economy.

What good are rental properties when inflation, high rent because of high demand, a week dollar and no employment oppurtunities make it damn near impossible to pay rent ?

Fannie and Freddie have been around since the 30s. The Affordable Housing Act was directly responsible for this mess and Obama and Bernake just threw gasoline on the bon fire.

[netsalt]

What should have happened from the get go is Government housing policies to supply easy and cheap credit to minories and/or people with questionable credit should have never been implemented.

Barney Franks American Affordable Housing Act and the Community Reinvestment were directly to blame for the sub-prime meltdown and the bubble.

And all in the interest of "equality and fairness".

By 1995 over 55% of loans bought and packaged off to investment banks by freddie abd Fannie HAD TO BE sub-prime.

Bernakes buying off of toxic MBS accomplishes nothing positive and punishes people like me and my kids and my grand kids and their grand kids for stupid progressive redistributive policies.

I didn't go and get a sub prime loan. But I and every other American that knew this was a terrible idea get to pay for it with a diminished dollar and a debt that will never be payed off and a crap economy.

What good are rental properties when inflation, high rent because of high demand, a week dollar and no employment oppurtunities make it damn near impossible to pay rent ?

Fannie and Freddie have been around since the 30s. The Affordable Housing Act was directly responsible for this mess and Obama and Bernake just threw gasoline on the bon fire.

This is a popular misconception that is regularly spewed from the right.
Could some one please explain how the gov forced these poor little banks to slice and dice bad paper and get it rated AAA to sell to unsuspecting greedy buyers, if you can't don't waste my time blaming government and the borrowers. The folks that took out the loans were usually guided in their choice by brokers and obviously made a mistake, but the resale of these debts (or the inability to) is what locked up the system.

[ga-hvac-tech]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/blackstone-to-buy-1-billion-worth-of-tampa-bay-homes-for-rentals/1252624


Yes the real estate market loses are regional, huge in some areas and less in others but now Freddie and Fannie are into rentals as well as Blackstone private equity fund,now with Ben's buy back program of 40 billion a month in MBS it will redefine the markets. This is what should have happened from the get go when the bubble started to burst. At least families even though will have to rent for life will have a roof over their heads.

Pardon me... but that is NOT the American Dream...

Sounds like settling for a PBJ sandwich... when one could have a LOT more.

[ga-hvac-tech]

This is a popular misconception that is regularly spewed from the right.
Could some one please explain how the gov forced these poor little banks to slice and dice bad paper and get it rated AAA to sell to unsuspecting greedy buyers, if you can't don't waste my time blaming government and the borrowers. The folks that took out the loans were usually guided in their choice by brokers and obviously made a mistake, but the resale of these debts (or the inability to) is what locked up the system.

Would you go on record as saying you vote for Mitt if someone agreed to?

What I am saying is: If the argument could (not was) posted... would you agree in advance to guarantee you would vote for Mitt?

Put your vote where your mouth is guy... :)

[Space Racer]

Could some one please explain how the gov forced these poor little banks to slice and dice bad paper and get it rated AAA to sell to unsuspecting greedy buyers, if you can't don't waste my time blaming government and the borrowers.

The government guaranteed the loans, regardless of risk.

http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/33-2/407.pdf

[Six]

This is a popular misconception that is

regularly spewed from the right.
Could some one please explain how the gov forced these poor little banks to slice and dice bad paper and get it rated AAA to sell to unsuspecting greedy buyers, if you can't don't waste my time blaming government and the borrowers. The folks that took out the loans were usually guided in their choice by brokers and obviously made a mistake, but the resale of these debts (or the inability to) is what locked up the system.

Net I've explained it over and over. Fannie and Freddie were forced to buy sub-prime loans under the Affordable Housing Act.

Fannie and Freddie ( where ex-democrat politicians go to get richer ) bundled up those mortages with good mortages and sold them off to investment banks to FUND THE SUB-PRIME MARKET.

With out the derivitives Barney Franks Affordable Housing Act would be dead in the water.

The banks under duress from Congress and the justice dep. were forced to participate with the exception of one.

Wells Fargo who just got fined 175 million for not loaning to people with crap credit. Of course Obamas justice dept called it "discrimination"

You libz are sick people. NOT DISCRIMINATING ON THE BASIS OF CREDIT SCORES IS WHAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS.

You libs stupidly blame the banks but ignore the driving force and the people who forced sub-prime on the rest of us and it wasn't Conservatives.

[netsalt]

If we are all to accept that the crash was caused by government intervention then explain how the rating agencies were in on it. Most investors would not have taken on such risky investments without a decent payout - unless the ratings were rigged to make it appear that the risk was minimal. The fact remains that even if these loans were forced by a government entity they were resold under false pretenses - AAA should be AAA - Junk is Junk.

[Six]

If we are all to accept that the crash was caused b
y government intervention then explain how the rating agencies were in on it. Most investors would not have taken on such risky investments without a decent payout - unless the ratings were rigged to make it appear that the risk was minimal. The fact remains that even if these loans were forced by a government entity they were resold under false pretenses - AAA should be AAA - Junk is Junk.

Ask yourself Net why were they bundled with good loans by Freddie and Fannie ?

The value of those derivatives to this day aren't known.

The investment bankers knew they were trash and so did the govt.

But what choice did the banks under threat of Federal prossecution have ? Remember what happened to Wells Fargo.

The value of the MBS at the time was impossible to assess.

Its why AIG almost wen't down. Those banks by law had to buy credit default swaps ( insurance ) on those MBS because they were such a risk.


What happened from the govt side was criminal but did anyone go to jail?

6 trillion in wealth gone but the govt and the media ran a campaign to put it all on the banks and apparently they were some what succesful.

Ever wonder why no bankers went to jail ?

[netsalt]

All I can say is an awful lot of money was made packaging these loans, if you believe they were sold only to appease the government there is nothing more to be said. Dream on sweet dreamer.

[Six]

All I can say is an awfull lot of money was made packaging these loans, if you
believe they were sold only to appease the government there is nothing more to be said. Dream on sweet dreamer.

Sure there was money made but you honestly think Lehman Brothers wanted to go bankrupt ?

And all that was made was lost anyway. Sure some people made money but even hedge fund managers and bank presidents a d traders lost billions in wealth.

I think there was a culture in the financial market to buy and sell and make money without any attention paid to the inevitable crash.

You're making money today so who cares.

These derivitaves didnt sit in one place very long. At least not long enough for their asset liabillity people to get a handle on their true value.

They still dont know their true value after being bundled and bought and sold multiple times.

Investment banks buy and sell, they dont build up inventory.

People must have thought that the housing market would just keep going through the roof and if it had we wouldnt be talking about this.

Even home owners ignored the obvious and took advantage of their new found equity.

[ga-hvac-tech]

If we are all to accept that the crash was caused by government intervention then explain how the rating agencies were in on it. Most investors would not have taken on such risky investments without a decent payout - unless the ratings were rigged to make it appear that the risk was minimal. The fact remains that even if these loans were forced by a government entity they were resold under false pretenses - AAA should be AAA - Junk is Junk.

Might want to do some SERIOUS research on ratings... they seem to change with political whims. Yeah, I said that... now do some research and you will find it is more true than it should be.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Something to think about:

In 1982, the oil boom came crashing down in Houston Texas. Those who lived there saw the WORST housing crises in modern history.

GA was there... and can say without hesitation: What happened in 2008 was no different (except for the basic cause, that is a different post).

The point is: There WAS HISTORY (and recent) of what would happen with a run-away bubble in housing prices just 30 years ago in Houston Texas... Did either the banking industry or the govt look, take notice, and be careful? Obviously NOT.

So what does that say for BOTH the banking industry AND the govt? In GA's opinion, both are culpable... however: when banks are under orders from the govt to specifically make loans to folks who cannot pay them back... this does change the picture significantly.

[netsalt]

Sure there was money made but you honestly think Lehman Brothers wanted to go bankrupt ?

And all that was made was lost anyway. Sure some people made money but even hedge fund managers and bank presidents a d traders lost billions in wealth.

I think there was a culture in the financial market to buy and sell and make money without any attention paid to the inevitable crash.

You're making money today so who cares.

These derivitaves didnt sit in one place very long. At least not long enough for their asset liabillity people to get a handle on their true value.

They still dont know their true value after being bundled and bought and sold multiple times.

Investment banks buy and sell, they dont build up inventory.

People must have thought that the housing market would just keep going through the roof and if it had we wouldnt be talking about this.

Even home owners ignored the obvious and took advantage of their new found equity.

It pains me to say it but I agree. The market was being made by people who never experienced a downturn. That goes from borrowers to traders, they never figured the bottom would fall out.

[newoldtech]

It pains me to say it but I agree. The market was being made by people who never experienced a downturn. That goes from borrowers to traders, they never figured the bottom would fall out.

There may of been some denial going on, but they knew. Trees dont grow to the sky. They didn't care as long as they were making theres, screw the rest of us. How much of it was the governments fault, how much of it was the banks fault, how much of it was the people who took out the loans that they couldn't afford is debatable? But we as a country especially the ones who lived within their means and did the right thing got screwed.

[ga-hvac-tech]

There may of been some denial going on, but they knew. Trees dont grow to the sky. They didn't care as long as they were making theres, screw the rest of us. How much of it was the governments fault, how much of it was the banks fault, how much of it was the people who took out the loans that they couldn't afford is debatable? But we as a country especially the ones who lived within their means and did the right thing got screwed.

The problem as I see it is: Until this group of folks (the honest and silent majority) become less silent and more noisy... the same screwing will continue.