The virgin Jesus

[printer2]

So was he or was he not? Would be odd running around as a teenager not noticing the opposite sex and as a man not wanting female company. There is now a report of fourth century papyrus saying he had a wife. So the big question is, was Jesus getting any, married or not?


AT an academic conference in Rome on Tuesday, Karen L. King, a church historian at Harvard Divinity School, presented a finding that, according to some reports, threatened to overturn what we know about Jesus, as well as the tradition of priestly celibacy. She identified a small fragment of fourth-century papyrus that includes the words, “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife...’ ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/opinion/mr-and-mrs-jesus-christ.html

[coolwhip]

Being the lib that you are, I thought you were going to say Jesus was gay.

Sure Jesus may have been married...maybe it was to Mary of Magdala?

[syndicated]

This thread is gonna be awesome....

[shaygetz]

A little research will show that 'Jesus' was actually a pretty common name back then. Because an understanding of the time had many believing Messiah was coming and that it would be through a virgin girl, it wasn't at all unusual for a woman who couldn't keep her skirt down to try to dodge the penalty for adultery by saying she was carrying The One and name him accordingly.

As for Jesus Himself marrying, he couldn't, for it would bring up too many questions, including the circumstances behind getting married and any offspring. The Old Testament clearly states that He would be cut off before having any children. Paul states that it is better not to marry because one's focus could be entirely devoted to God's work without distraction, a principle garnered no doubt from following the life of Christ.

Paul also pointed out that a demand for celebacy was the mark of an apostate church, noting the marraige bed was as holy as Christ's preisthood, and that regular intimacy between husband and wife was a safeguard for the marriage, to be stopped only for short periods of fasting and prayer.

A cursory look at any of this type of scholarship only shows the underlying motive--to denegrate and delegitimize Scripture and to find any excuse possible to reject the One who paid the price for sin once and for all. It is the motive behind sending every space probe to grope and prod every corner of the galaxy, in the hopes of finding an errant microbe to "prove" evolutionary life exists apart from earth and thus Creation by a Divine Being is not. The sad thing is that...here and now or there and then...every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all, some to their eternal joy, the rest to their eternal damnation.

...just sayin'...

[Phrancis]

:munching:

[Brian GC]

... the rest to their eternal damnation.



That is quite a price to pay for being skeptical - a trait that God gave some of us. But whatever makes you feel one up on your neighbor.

[Six]

So was he or was he not? Would be odd running
around as a teenager not noticing the opposite sex and as a man not wanting female company. There is now a report of fourth century papyrus saying he had a wife. So the big question is, was Jesus getting any, married or not?



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/opinion/mr-and-mrs-jesus-christ.html

Another liberal decides to attack and malign the name of Jesus with a scrap of papyrus that dates back to the 4rth century and hasn't even been accepted by historians as legitimate.

So what else is new.

I mean we all know the damage that the Christians are doing around the world destroying embassies, throwing rocks at riot police and killing ambassadors.

[Six]

That is quite a price to pay for being skeptical - a trait that God gave some of
us. But whatever makes you feel one up on your neighbor.

If liberals would keep their mouths shut and stop trying to achieve every liberals ultimate paradise, to be the most miserable person on earth then the only objection to Christianity would be coming from the atheist and the muslims.

But liberals do their best to malign the name of Jesus and show the rest of the world their intollerance towards people that dont think the same way as they do, even to the point of allying themselves with the Muslims.

I saw a bunch of LGBT protestors chanting "support the Intifada " while carrying nonsensic signs and supporting Obama.

Are they really THAT stupid ? I'll just say yes to that and chalk it up to the yet to be discovered virus that camps out inside every liberals brain that after its 3 second period of gestation immediately lowers their I.Q. by 50 points.

[shaygetz]

That is quite a price to pay for being skeptical - a trait that God gave some of us. But whatever makes you feel one up on your neighbor.

It's good to be sceptical...I was and found out God can take it pretty well. It's when the answer is tap dancing across your nose and you choose to still be sceptical that God tends to get a bit miffed. The Bible is an anvil that has worn out many hammers, including many of mine. I suspect there are many more hammers coming before He decides it's time to bring the curtain down on this portion of man's history.

As for feeling one up on my neighbor...chances are pretty good that, if I do feel one up on thy neighbor because of my faith, then I don't have The Gospel in my heart, but a rather cheap imitation meant to make me feel good. My Bible tells me to see others as better than me...an attitude that keeps me from standing outside of state capitol buildings, burning American flags, holding up John 3:16 signs and shouting "Jesus is Lord."

[Six]

Note to the author of the OP. If you want to start a contentious flame bait thread post it on Monday morning, not Friday.

AC techs are usually dead tired by Friday and mad at the world on Monday morning.

[glennac]

Note to the author of the OP. If you want to start a contentious flame bait thread post it on Monday morning, not Friday.

AC techs are usually dead tired by Friday and mad at the world on Monday morning.

Yeah sounds like printer might be carrying water for the Muslims and or anti Christians with this thread. Not nice printer. You can do better than that. Thank you very much

[printer2]

Another liberal decides to attack and malign the name of Jesus with a scrap of papyrus that dates back to the 4rth century and hasn't even been accepted by historians as legitimate.

So what else is new.

I mean we all know the damage that the Christians are doing around the world destroying embassies, throwing rocks at riot police and killing ambassadors.

Well thank you for your bias. Actually I do not believe Jesus was married but I was not going to influence the discussion with an opinion that I have not completely formed. And as far as embassies, that is being covered in another thread. I am bringing this up as it was in the paper yesterday. I thought a diversion from your presidential politics and hatred between religions might be a welcome relief. One that there is no proven right or wrong so there can not be any winners or losers. I guess I misjudged people's nature again. And sory for posting so close to the weekend. Never knew it would tire people out. Come back on Monday and rejoin the discussion.

shaygetz

Thank you for the well versed reply. I never thought of it from the angle of a person selling themselves as a prophet and them needing to be celibate. I knew others at the time were also running around claiming to be prophets, I thought that celibacy came about afterward in response to Jesus's life, and not that it was widely done. Mind you if you think about it as many people believing the Apocalypse was imminent then going the celebrate route is not a big sacrifice.

When I started to think about this after reading the article I thought of Jesus growing up as any boy and the stages and desires that take one into manhood. I am assuming Jesus had a normal life where he developed as any other child would learning, growing, and maturing as any other human being would. I was just curious how normal a life he had.


Sorry to offend you there Glenn, I'll try to do better next time. Maybe start a thread about music.

[shaygetz]

You're welcome printer...I wish more folks could just stop and truly think about what they believe. That Jesus was the sinless, holy Son of God who came to walk among us as one of us has some serious points to ponder. Which is easier to believe...He walked on water or walked on by the local hottie in high school without a sinful thought overtaking him? Remember, the Scriptures say that He was tempted in every way as we are yet was without sin...so He had to do both, or He was no better than the rest of us, making His death on the cross utterly pointless.

Alas, sigh, groan...these are the discussions I miss from Bible college... :-)

[printer2]

You're welcome printer...I wish more folks could just stop and truly think about what they believe. That Jesus was the sinless, holy Son of God who came to walk among us as one of us has some serious points to ponder. Which is easier to believe...He walked on water or walked on by the local hottie in high school without a sinful thought overtaking him? Remember, the Scriptures say that He was tempted in every way as we are yet was without sin...so He had to do both, or He was no better than the rest of us, making His death on the cross utterly pointless.

Alas, sigh, groan...these are the discussions I miss from Bible college... :-)

And that is what I think, if he was this wise old creature but only in a human body that is waiting to become full grown then what was the point? It makes more sense to me for him to go through the same things we do.

[Brian GC]

You're welcome printer...I wish more folks could just stop and truly think about what they believe. That Jesus was the sinless, holy Son of God who came to walk among us as one of us has some serious points to ponder. Which is easier to believe...He walked on water or walked on by the local hottie in high school without a sinful thought overtaking him? Remember, the Scriptures say that He was tempted in every way as we are yet was without sin...so He had to do both, or He was no better than the rest of us, making His death on the cross utterly pointless.

Alas, sigh, groan...these are the discussions I miss from Bible college... :-)

I have been trying to understand or embrace traditional Christianity for decades now but get hung up on some of the simplest concepts. One is that He died for our sins. I just don’t get it. The other is that we should love and follow Him more than his message of unconditional love and that recognizing Him, not his message, will get you into heaven. I think Christians have it backwards. Jesus does not come from a standpoint of ego.

[PM Heat n Cool]

I have been trying to understand or embrace traditional Christianity for decades now but get hung up on some of the simplest concepts. One is that He died for our sins. I just don’t get it. The other is that we should love and follow Him more than his message of unconditional love and that recognizing Him, not his message, will get you into heaven. I think Christians have it backwards. Jesus does not come from a standpoint of ego.

That's my problem he died almost 2000 years before I was even born to commit a sin

[Phrancis]

I have been trying to understand or embrace traditional Christianity for decades now but get hung up on some of the simplest concepts. One is that He died for our sins. I just don’t get it. The other is that we should love and follow Him more than his message of unconditional love and that recognizing Him, not his message, will get you into heaven. I think Christians have it backwards. Jesus does not come from a standpoint of ego.

Always had that thought too. I hang around some SDA folks who (never mind their modern prophet E.G. White) seem to imply that unless you implicitly accept Jesus as your savior, then you are doomed to eternal death. Which is all fine and dandy if that is what you choose to believe. But what about the rest of us who prefer to be presented with facts and not just accept the utterings of some men who lived thousands of years ago as fact? Are we doomed to eternal death as well?

[Tool-Slinger]

Another liberal decides to attack and malign the name of Jesus with a scrap of papyrus that dates back to the 4rth century and hasn't even been accepted by historians as legitimate.

So what else is new.

I mean we all know the damage that the Christians are doing around the world destroying embassies, throwing rocks at riot police and killing ambassadors.

I am becoming really sick of these christians flying planes into buildings and detonating bombs in public places. Muslim miscreants. I think we need to basically quarantine them. They are sick. You cannot kill them, that would be mean, but we can cut then off. Koreans too. Just blockade all of the miscreants. Balls anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T7sU3A2m18

Cut them off.

[Six]

I have been trying to understand or embrace traditional Christianity for decades now but get hung up on some of the simplest concepts. One is that He died for our sins. I just don’t get it. The other is that we should love and follow Him more than his message of unconditional love and that recognizing Him, not his message, will get you into heaven. I think Christians have it backwards. Jesus does not come from a standpoint of ego.


Understand in Christianity there is the law and then there is Grace. Jesus was God in human form and his sacrifice was the only sufficient act worthy enough to cleanse the stain of sin from the human race.

If you recognize Jesus you recognize his message. Also to be Christian especially born again you have at one point thrown your ego aside completely and admitted your'e a sinner. Christians are actually very humble people. Humility is part of the initiation.

I wonder how many people who haven't accepted Jesus into their heart have sat down and done a full inventory of their mistakes in this life and then actually felt remorse and asked for forgiveness ?

There is example after example of how depraved, cruel, violent and filthy this world is. It's our decision as Christians to not live in the world ( so to speak ) but to follow Christ.

People have to realize that being or becoming a Christian doesn't make you less human or mean that you will never sin again. God's grace is free, all you have to do is ask for it.

[Six]

I am becoming really sick of these christians flying planes into buildings and detonating bombs in public places. Muslim miscreants. I think we need to basically quarantine them. They are sick. You cannot kill them, that would be mean, but we can cut then off. Koreans too. Just blockade all of the miscreants. Balls anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T7sU3A2m18

Cut them off.

Right !!??? And you know where it says in the New Testament that you have to cut the head off of a Muslim if he doesn't accept the Christian faith ?

And you have to treat your women like sub-humans and make them walk ten paces behind you, don't allow them to drive a vehicle, cover every millimeter of their body because you can't control yourself's and beat them with sticks publicly if they " get out of line "??

I was thinking more along the line of huge Christian Concentration and re-education camps. The one's that won't toe the line well.....I hear there is this really big hole in Nevada...

[Tool-Slinger]

I have been trying to understand or embrace traditional Christianity for decades now but get hung up on some of the simplest concepts. One is that He died for our sins. I just don’t get it. The other is that we should love and follow Him more than his message of unconditional love and that recognizing Him, not his message, will get you into heaven. I think Christians have it backwards. Jesus does not come from a standpoint of ego.

I think basically, you need to admit you are a sinner, have sinned, accept it and Jesus, then you have all your sins forgiven. Jesus died to allow that to happen. Jesus gave his life for that in a tragic way. You start there. Then he said some other stuff that you can work-out as you go along.

[Tool-Slinger]

Right !!??? And you know where it says in the New Testament that you have to cut the head off of a Muslim if he doesn't accept the Christian faith ?

And you have to treat your women like sub-humans and make them walk ten paces behind you, don't allow them to drive a vehicle, cover every millimeter of their body because you can't control yourself's and beat them with sticks publicly if they " get out of line "??

I was thinking more along the line of huge Christian Concentration and re-education camps. The one's that won't toe the line well.....I hear there is this really big hole in Nevada...

Muslims would gleefully dump us all in a hole and bury us. I am not sure what they would do afterwards, maybe go milk some goats. I am thinking isolation perhaps. Quarantine. Diseased animals.

[corny]

Please post where the quaran says to cut someones head off for not becoming muslim.....

The Q ran is a lot like the old testament.....lot of wars and violence going on in the stories......

What people have done with the Q ran is snipped out little pieces of scripture and posted them all over the net.....out of context to try and force western dullards...who wont pick up the book themselves and try and understand the statements in context.... to hate and fear Islam.

[Tool-Slinger]

Please post where the quaran says to cut someones head off for not becoming muslim.....

The Q ran is a lot like the old testament.....lot of wars and violence going on in the stories......

What people have done with the Q ran is snipped out little pieces of scripture and posted them all over the net.....out of context to try and force western dullards...who wont pick up the book themselves and try and understand the statements in context.... to hate and fear Islam.

Muslims murder christians daily. And others. He11, they just killed 20 of their own over a stupid u-tube post. Defend them??? LOL!

[printer2]

Another liberal decides to attack and malign the name of Jesus with a scrap of papyrus that dates back to the 4rth century and hasn't even been accepted by historians as legitimate.

So what else is new.

I mean we all know the damage that the Christians are doing around the world destroying embassies, throwing rocks at riot police and killing ambassadors.

Still haven't apologized. Well it is not Monday yet. Mind you, that might even be humiliating.

[chaard]

That's my problem he died almost 2000 years before I was even born to commit a sin

And yet he still died for you.

[syndicated]

No, I'm pretty sure he didn't die for me.
I really wish Christians would stop spreading the good word, or whatever they call it.
Going to a customer's house to fix a furnace and ending up hearing fairy tales about a guy in a religion that spawned off of mine (I was raised Jewish) is not my idea of a good time.
I know this will get a lot of people's hair up, but let me ask you this.
If everyone says their religion is the right way and sh!ts on everyone else's, how can a skeptical person believe any of it? Furthermore, can any of you provide one piece of PROOF that any of the bible occured? No heresay allowed....

PS I'm neither a liberal, nor an atheist.

[corny]

Muslims murder christians daily. And others. He11, they just killed 20 of their own over a stupid u-tube post. Defend them??? LOL!

What im saying tool is that the quaran does not instruct its followers to go out and kill everyday. That passage in the quaran was similar to ones in the bible where GOD tells the Israelites to go into an area and kill everyone......because GOD wants Israel to have that land.

These muslims today are not out there handing us our ass because the quaran.....they are doing it because they want us out of their land.

Backwards ass people.......stuck in their own old testament times for sure...... but to say that the qran orders them to go out and kill every non muslim is false.....and I am fairly amazed...and saddened that so many americans are ignorant enough and lazy enough to take the hook line and sinker on these internet fables.

They are stuck 600 years in the past...... up until 100 years ago we civilized christians had no problem wiping out whole families who lived on the land that they wanted...... christians were burning witches in america at one time...... they got that from the bible too by the way..... they misinterpreted it.....but still.... witches were burned for centuries before we finally wised up and realized that all this spiritual mumbo jumbo was just that.......spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Tool...if all muslims felt the way that people on the internet say they feel...... there would be a lot less of us here to post and argue on HVAC Talk....... cause those crazy bastards would have lopped our heads off years ago.

Judging by the lack of response to my question....Im going to ASSume...... that some folks actually went online and looked at an actual quaran and read the verse about slaying the infidels......in its proper context and not just a snippet off of some jackasses blog.

[glennac]

What im saying tool is that the quaran does not instruct its followers to go out and kill everyday. That passage in the quaran was similar to ones in the bible where GOD tells the Israelites to go into an area and kill everyone......because GOD wants Israel to have that land.

These muslims today are not out there handing us our ass because the quaran.....they are doing it because they want us out of their land.

Backwards ass people.......stuck in their own old testament times for sure...... but to say that the qran orders them to go out and kill every non muslim is false.....and I am fairly amazed...and saddened that so many americans are ignorant enough and lazy enough to take the hook line and sinker on these internet fables.

They are stuck 600 years in the past...... up until 100 years ago we civilized christians had no problem wiping out whole families who lived on the land that they wanted...... christians were burning witches in america at one time...... they got that from the bible too by the way..... they misinterpreted it.....but still.... witches were burned for centuries before we finally wised up and realized that all this spiritual mumbo jumbo was just that.......spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Tool...if all muslims felt the way that people on the internet say they feel...... there would be a lot less of us here to post and argue on HVAC Talk....... cause those crazy bastards would have lopped our heads off years ago.

Judging by the lack of response to my question....Im going to ASSume...... that some folks actually went online and looked at an actual quaran and read the verse about slaying the infidels......in its proper context and not just a snippet off of some jackasses blog.

Is that what they teach at your local Mosque corny. You are way out here as usual. Thank you very much

[chaard]

No, I'm pretty sure he didn't die for me.
I really wish Christians would stop spreading the good word, or whatever they call it.
Going to a customer's house to fix a furnace and ending up hearing fairy tales about a guy in a religion that spawned off of mine (I was raised Jewish) is not my idea of a good time.
I know this will get a lot of people's hair up, but let me ask you this.
If everyone says their religion is the right way and sh!ts on everyone else's, how can a skeptical person believe any of it? Furthermore, can any of you provide one piece of PROOF that any of the bible occured? No heresay allowed....

PS I'm neither a liberal, nor an atheist.
Just because you reject Christ doesn't prove he didn't die for us.
There is tons of proof people and events occurred as written in the Bible.

[Tool-Slinger]

What im saying tool is that the quaran does not instruct its followers to go out and kill everyday. That passage in the quaran was similar to ones in the bible where GOD tells the Israelites to go into an area and kill everyone......because GOD wants Israel to have that land.

These muslims today are not out there handing us our ass because the quaran.....they are doing it because they want us out of their land.

Backwards ass people.......stuck in their own old testament times for sure...... but to say that the qran orders them to go out and kill every non muslim is false.....and I am fairly amazed...and saddened that so many americans are ignorant enough and lazy enough to take the hook line and sinker on these internet fables.

They are stuck 600 years in the past...... up until 100 years ago we civilized christians had no problem wiping out whole families who lived on the land that they wanted...... christians were burning witches in america at one time...... they got that from the bible too by the way..... they misinterpreted it.....but still.... witches were burned for centuries before we finally wised up and realized that all this spiritual mumbo jumbo was just that.......spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Tool...if all muslims felt the way that people on the internet say they feel...... there would be a lot less of us here to post and argue on HVAC Talk....... cause those crazy bastards would have lopped our heads off years ago.

Judging by the lack of response to my question....Im going to ASSume...... that some folks actually went online and looked at an actual quaran and read the verse about slaying the infidels......in its proper context and not just a snippet off of some jackasses blog.

Well Corny, I do not think we are in any direct actual disagreement. Sure, there are many moderate muslims. And any popular holy text can be taken to an extreme [muslim-protestant-catholic-mormon] by the adherents. But muslims are the problem. Islam crosses many different cultures and has many diverse sects / splinter groups.

So I am logically concluding that islam itself is the problem. Now, whether that is because the koran is instructing evil or it is being mis-interpereted my opinion is indeed flexible.

[Gib's Son]

I think their intolerance is from a lack of pork fat in their diet. Nothing like a big fat stuffed pork chop to put a smile on your face.

That sounds so yummy I am going to vamoose down to the store and get me some. Play nice till I get back.

[corny]

Well Corny, I do not think we are in any direct actual disagreement. Sure, there are many moderate muslims. And any popular holy text can be taken to an extreme [muslim-protestant-catholic-mormon] by the adherents. But muslims are the problem. Islam crosses many different cultures and has many diverse sects / splinter groups.

So I am logically concluding that islam itself is the problem. Now, whether that is because the koran is instructing evil or it is being mis-interpereted my opinion is indeed flexible.

The koran dont instruct evil and I dont believe it is being misinterpreted...... those crazy mofros would still be doing the killing if they didnt have any religion at all. Its a power thing.....

[corny]

The pork thing....lol
Thats part of the problem with these guys...... they are still stuck with rules and laws from a book that was written a couple thousand years ago.

The difference between us and them is that we came out of that old testament BS....yes....I said old testament BS.....and those cretins never got around to writing a new testament to invalidate all those old laws and customs.

We have Jesus as our savior......they are still stuck with mohammed.

Yes, yes...... the jews and the old testy....... but one thing about the jews......they were dragged into the modern world by being thrown out of the middle east and into europe where they were brought into modern times with the rest of the world.

While I am sure there are jews in the mid east that can trace their bloodlines back to Israel......the majority of modern jews in Israel and the jews in power in the government...... are of european descent...... just like us.

They had a few centuries of attitude adjustment by the greeks, the moors....the europeans...... they still practice some of the old food laws and such.....but they have been thoroughly modernized by the europeans.

And of course the jews dont have to go around the world killing......they got what they want and they have the whole western world standing behind them with their military might to insure they keep it.

[mcjo tech]

Just because you reject Christ doesn't prove he didn't die for us.
There is tons of proof people and events occurred as written in the Bible.

Well we know he died.

The "for us" part is only an opinion.

Can't be proven either way.

Thats why it is a belief.

As far as the Mussys killing people and Christians not killing then obviously some here must have never heard about the Crusades.

[Special Ed]

Interesting post, corny, you almost sound like a NeoNazi w/it....

Fact is, the Palestinians and Muslims have all of North Africa and the Middle East they can call home but interestingly enough they ONLY want that little sliver of land they call Palestine and the Jews call Israel. See, the Jews have no other land to call their own unlike you and me and the Muslims.

And, further, unbeknownst to the so-called Palestinians they're being used by the rest of the Muslim world as shock troops to wrest the Jews from the land promised to them by not only God but also the UN and England.

So, yes, I think it is proper for the West and, for that matter, the rest of the world to back the Jews on his matter, and to forcibly make the Muslims accept this situation no matter how many sissy suicide bombers they send our way. Who cares if they continue to throw a collective tantrum because they're not getting their way? I don't, and I could also care less if they end up being wiped out in the process.

[Special Ed]

Well we know he died.

The "for us" part is only an opinion.

Can't be proven either way.

Thats why it is a belief.

As far as the Mussys killing people and Christians not killing then obviously some here must have never heard about the Crusades.

The Crusades? It's laughable that you even bring that subject up....

First of all, they took place centuries ago so if that's the best justification for Islamo-terrorism you can come up with hen this debate is over and you lost

Secondly, when you think of terrorism, what's the first word that comes to mind? Christianity? Doubtful, and you'd be lying if you said so. Environmentalists? Maybe, but also unlikely. How about Islam or Muslims? Now that would be a much, much more likely response, and more honest to boot.

Sure, every religious sect out there has probably committed crimes against humanity. But no other religious sect has gone as far as Islam when it comes to killing people - heck, Muslims probably even invented terrorism as a form of coercion.

[corny]

Interesting post, corny, you almost sound like a NeoNazi w/it....

Fact is, the Palestinians and Muslims have all of North Africa and the Middle East they can call home but interestingly enough they ONLY want that little sliver of land they call Palestine and the Jews call Israel. See, the Jews have no other land to call their own unlike you and me and the Muslims.

And, further, unbeknownst to the so-called Palestinians they're being used by the rest of the Muslim world as shock troops to wrest the Jews from the land promised to them by not only God but also the UN and England.

So, yes, I think it is proper for the West and, for that matter, the rest of the world to back the Jews on his matter, and to forcibly make the Muslims accept this situation no matter how many sissy suicide bombers they send our way. Who cares if they continue to throw a collective tantrum because they're not getting their way? I don't, and I could also care less if they end up being wiped out in the process.

Nothing I said seems neo-nazi ish..... I simply stated the facts. The jews still use the old testament and still follow some of those BS food laws and such.....but after the romans sent them packing from Israel and pretty much the mid east.....they were assimilated into european cultures which took some of the old testament out of them.

Of course you still have jews out there who could kill the child of a non jew and feel no different than they were swatting a fly.... but they cant act on those feelings as it would disturb those who protect israel and might damage their relationship with their protectors.

As far as the state of israel....and any other nation on this planet........ this is what I believe.......

If you can take the land it is yours forever how long you can hold it...... I dont care who you are..... because thats what man has been doing since the beginning of time.....

But... if islam can take and hold onto land in that area.......I have no problem with that either..... cause thats just the way this big blue marble works.

[printer2]

Interesting post, corny, you almost sound like a NeoNazi w/it....

Fact is, the Palestinians and Muslims have all of North Africa and the Middle East they can call home but interestingly enough they ONLY want that little sliver of land they call Palestine and the Jews call Israel. See, the Jews have no other land to call their own unlike you and me and the Muslims.

And, further, unbeknownst to the so-called Palestinians they're being used by the rest of the Muslim world as shock troops to wrest the Jews from the land promised to them by not only God but also the UN and England.

So, yes, I think it is proper for the West and, for that matter, the rest of the world to back the Jews on his matter, and to forcibly make the Muslims accept this situation no matter how many sissy suicide bombers they send our way. Who cares if they continue to throw a collective tantrum because they're not getting their way? I don't, and I could also care less if they end up being wiped out in the process.


Maybe a mater of perspective.


The British talk to the French and decide to help out all those poor Mexicans that want to go to Texas to live. They say it is only fair as Mexicans owned the place originally. So all the Mexicans in Texas start bringing their extended families to live in Texas. Well it starts to pee off the locals and some of them start harassing the Mexicans. Eventually a couple of Mexicans get killed and the Mexicans decide to arm themselves for protection (Should be a natural thought down in Texas don't you think). Well the locals that don't know how to share are pretty good at arming themselves. Eventually things boil over and the USA Texans and the Mexican Texans have a little war among themselves where the Mexicans win out (there are a lot of them and you know what they are like, loco and all) and the Texans are pushed into a small county or two.

The rest of the Americans are so ashamed that the Mexicans beat the pants off their fellow Americans that they disown them and they are stuck in these flee bitten camps waiting for someone to come to their aid. Eventually the UN said the displaced American Texans can have their own State but the Mexicans do not want to settle with them as some of the American Texans say they will never surrender Texas even if it takes a thousand years to get it back (imagine that these Texans have a long history in the land not going back a few hundred years but thousand). After a while the Mexican Texans figure this not settling with the American Texans is a good thing as every year they push the American Texans off of more land and start building more towns and fill them up with their wacky cousins from Guadalajara.

And still the American Texans complain. The ungracious motherless sons.




Not like I started this as a Christian/West vs Muslim debate, thought there was enough threads on that topic already. It really disappointing me, I would not have bothered if I thought this would just devolve into another one.

[mcjo tech]

The Crusades? It's laughable that you even bring that subject up....

First of all, they took place centuries ago so if that's the best justification for Islamo-terrorism you can come up with hen this debate is over and you lost

Secondly, when you think of terrorism, what's the first word that comes to mind? Christianity? Doubtful, and you'd be lying if you said so. Environmentalists? Maybe, but also unlikely. How about Islam or Muslims? Now that would be a much, much more likely response, and more honest to boot.

Sure, every religious sect out there has probably committed crimes against humanity. But no other religious sect has gone as far as Islam when it comes to killing people - heck, Muslims probably even invented terrorism as a form of coercion.

My point is that other religions have also killed their fair share of people.

What is it about that statement that makes it so laughable?

In regards to your claim that the Muslim religion has killed more people then any other religions.

Got any proof about that?

Sure like to see your facts regarding this statement.

[Special Ed]

Nice story, printer, and it would be a perfect analogy, except for one thing: the Mexicans have never been nor will they ever be a perpetually persecuted race by almost every other race.

Every people needs a homeland, especially if they're hated as much as they are and even more especially if it seems as if the psychotic Arabs/Muslims want to wipe you out even more so than those fickle Europeans!

[Special Ed]

My point is that other religions have also killed their fair share of people.

What is it about that statement that makes it so laughable?

In regards to your claim that the Muslim religion has killed more people then any other religions.

Got any proof about that?

Sure like to see your facts regarding this statement.

You have your doubts? Why?

You're right, every religion has their bad times but Islam's just seems to keep going and going just like the Eveready bunny! Islam was begun by a man who encouraged his followers to convert or kill - their whole schtick is death! At its founding Islam killed many and they continued to kill many throughout the Middle Ages even after other religious sects finally discovered and acknowledged its futility. Muslims killed and conquered their way across the Middle East and into Europe, and they held onto their empire until WWI when finally the Ottomans were defeated (thank God!).

Now they're fractured as a religion but the only thing they can seem to agree on is not only the dissolution of the State of Israel but also the total and complete extermination of the Jewish people as a race! Many Muslim leaders have said as much all you have to do is read.

As far as the killing thing look that up yourself, I don't have the time or energy....

[mcjo tech]

.As far as the killing thing look that up yourself, I don't have the time or energy....


I didn't make the statement that the muslim religion has killed more people then any other religion.

You did.

I simply asked that if you are to make such a statement I would like to see the facts from which you drew your conclusion.

So I would say it is easy to make broad disparaging comments but much more difficult to prove or back them up.

[Special Ed]

So you want links to websites and all that?

All I know is you post a lot of crap on here too, and it's not too often I see you post links backing up your claims.

If I had absolutely nothing better to do and if I practically lived on this forum then, yes, I'd do it.

But I don't.

BTW, did you see any other part of my post? I ask, because you haven't responded to it and most of it can be independently verified.

[Tool-Slinger]

I didn't make the statement that the muslim religion has killed more people then any other religion.

You did.

I simply asked that if you are to make such a statement I would like to see the facts from which you drew your conclusion.

So I would say it is easy to make broad disparaging comments but much more difficult to prove or back them up.

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

You were saying?

[mcjo tech]

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

You were saying?

So this website is your so called Proof?

Alrighty then.

[mcjo tech]

So you want links to websites and all that?

All I know is you post a lot of crap on here too, and it's not too often I see you post links backing up your claims.

If I had absolutely nothing better to do and if I practically lived on this forum then, yes, I'd do it.


But I don't.

BTW, did you see any other part of my post? I ask, because you haven't responded to it and most of it can be independently verified.


So by your above statement you say what you posted was a lot of crap.

Your words not mine.

Once again, I did not make the original statement.

Also you did not respond in kind to all of my post.

I will agree that the extreemists of their religion are a terrible lot and deserve to be held accountable for the murders they commit.

I am just not sure that we need to cast out every Muslim just because of the extreemist part of their religion.

[Tool-Slinger]

So this website is your so called Proof?

Alrighty then.

You demanded backup. Upon presentation you ridicule it without explanation or reason. I am not sure why I bothered to comply.

[mcjo tech]

You demanded backup. Upon presentation you ridicule it without explanation or reason. I am not sure why I bothered to comply.

I did not ask you to provide a source.

You did not make the original statement.

Not sure why you felt compelled to jump into the middle of it.

If you have some other source that is more independant in its view I would be happy to consider it.

As a matter of fact I never said it is not true I only wanted to know what was used to draw such a conclusion.

[royc]

Well we know he died.

The "for us" part is only an opinion.

Can't be proven either way.

Thats why it is a belief.

As far as the Mussys killing people and Christians not killing then obviously some here must have never heard about the Crusades.

Or the war on Terror,

Roy

[royc]

More people have died in this century, than all centuries before it.

Around sixty million died during WWII alone.
Thirty Seven million died during WWI.



Now guess who were the ones that did most of the killing....Christians or Muslims ????


Christians have killed more Christians then any other religion.


Roy

[glennac]

Strongly disagree there roy. The countries that did most of the killing had non Christian governments Nazi Germany and atheist Soviet Union.

Christian faiths & churches had no part. Why do you spin the truth here? Thank you very much p

[glennac]

You demanded backup. Upon presentation you ridicule it without explanation or reason. I am not sure why I bothered to comply.

You need to get your link from an official Saudi web site there to argue against a supporter of Islam there Tool. Thank you very much

[royc]

Strongly disagree there roy. The countries that did most of the killing had non Christian governments Nazi Germany and atheist Soviet Union.

Christian faiths & churches had no part. Why do you spin the truth here? Thank you very much p

Where do you see the words "Faith" and "Churches" in my post. Before, during, and post WWII Germany, the population considerd themselfs either Katholisch or Evangelisch wich are Christians, the old Soviet Union was mainly Catholic whatever denomination called.


Roy

[mcjo tech]

You need to get your link from an official Saudi web site there to argue against a supporter of Islam there Tool. Thank you very much

I thought you and I had come to some sort of truce.

But since obviously that is not the case then so be it.

Just because I make a reference to your cherished religion about their past travasties does not mean I support Islam.

And drawing such a conclusion is just another way for you to try to put words into my mouth that are not there.

Try using your brain for a change. :grin2:

See a smiley face that means this sentence is obviously satire.

[corny]

Glenn..... chill out

[printer2]

Nice story, printer, and it would be a perfect analogy, except for one thing: the Mexicans have never been nor will they ever be a perpetually persecuted race by almost every other race.

Every people needs a homeland, especially if they're hated as much as they are and even more especially if it seems as if the psychotic Arabs/Muslims want to wipe you out even more so than those fickle Europeans!

They were offered Uganda and did not take it. Heck, they can walk away right now and we will give them the Atlantic Provinces. More land and resources than they have now. If they are so worried about the Arabs, we will give them a piece of Canada. Not good enough, they want the land they walked on 2000 years ago. Every people has been persecuted by someone else, time to get over it. Also they were not a people but rather followers of a religion. The Arabs are the same people as the Jews, just different religion and the Jews pushed them out of the land they occupied.

[RoBoTeq]

The subject of whether or not the man Jesus (assumption that we are referring to Jesus Christ because Jesus was a common name at the time that Jesus Christ walked the Earth as a mortal) ever had sex or was married has come up often. Usually, the conversation is based on Coptic writings, which are always somewhat suspect because of the Egyptian Christian melding of female deities into the Christian faith. Also, even this latest alleged reference is still a century and a half after the fact of the man Jesus having lived as a mortal.

That said, from an etimologically historical viewpoint, taking into consideration the social aspects of the Middle East and in particular, Jews of the time that the man Jesus lived, it would actually be odd if Jesus had not married.

Unlike today, with it being so inexpensive for writing materials, writing 2000 years ago was limited to what mattered most. Only if there were something out of the ordinary about a person being written about would a subject even be noted. Paul of Tarsus is an example of a man whose celebacy was pointed out because celebacy in a male Jew at Paul's age was something that would be noticed and commented on. With Jesus having been thought of as a rabbi, it would have been even more odd for Him not to have been married. An unmarried thirty-something rabbi would have raised a lot of eyebrows and would have been commented on.

Just as we have no written description of what Jesus looked like, we have nothing in writing as to Jesus's marital status. Paul on the other hand is described physically and his celebacy is written about. Why Paul and not Jesus? Because Paul's physical appearance was noteworthy and his celebacy needed explaination. In turn, the reason that Jesus is not physically described can be reasonably assumed because Jesus looked like every other typical Jewish man in His time. Likewise, with nothing being mentioned about Jesus being married or not, it is more likely that Jesus was either married or had been married. It is possible that Jesus had a wife who passed away before He started His ministry. Either way, it is actually more unlikely that Jesus was never married simply because there would have been some mention of such an unusual lifestyle by Jesus.

Since Jesus was fully a man, any offspring of Jesus's would simply be normal humans. It was that Jesus was also the incarnate of God the Father that made the man Jesus so spiritually unique.

As for Jesus dying for the sins of all mankind, He did just that. For those who do not wish to accept the gift of salvation from Jesus's sacrifice of dying for our sins, that is their choice. Just because we don't accept something someone does for us does not diminish the fact that they still committed the act for us. If I open the door for you and you refuse to walk through it, I have still opened the door.....for you.

[printer2]

Why Paul and not Jesus?

Good point.


In turn, the reason that Jesus is not physically described can be reasonably assumed because Jesus looked like every other typical Jewish man in His time.

That sounds kind of racist don't you think? :D

[glennac]

Where do you see the words "Faith" and "Churches" in my post. Before, during, and post WWII Germany, the population considerd themselfs either Katholisch or Evangelisch wich are Christians, the old Soviet Union was mainly Catholic whatever denomination called.


Roy

Really Roy Christians didn't start the war or wanted to join the war but their non Christian governments did. Christianity had little or no influence in the governments of Germany and the Soviet Union. You did say:

Now guess who were the ones that did most of the killing....Christians or Muslims ????

Christians have killed more Christians then any other religion.


This definitly implies that "Christians" are responsible for the killings when in fact it was their non Christian governments which were responsible. I hope you understand the difference here? Thank you, thank you very much

[glennac]

I thought you and I had come to some sort of truce.

But since obviously that is not the case then so be it.

Just because I make a reference to your cherished religion about their past travasties does not mean I support Islam.

And drawing such a conclusion is just another way for you to try to put words into my mouth that are not there.

Try using your brain for a change. :grin2:

See a smiley face that means this sentence is obviously satire.

OK mcjo perhaps that was a streach saying you were a supporter of Islam but I would say that you have definitly defended Islam which is not much better IMO.

Perhaps you can show where Tool's link is wrong in any way other than posting a Muslim web site link? Otherwise you have no bases to challenge Tool's post.:grin2::whistle: Thank you, thank you very much

[mcjo tech]

OK mcjo perhaps that was a streach saying you were a supporter of Islam but I would say that you have definitly defended Islam which is not much better IMO.

Perhaps you can show where Tool's link is wrong in any way other than posting a Muslim web site link? Otherwise you have no bases to challenge Tool's post.:grin2::whistle: Thank you, thank you very much

First of all I did not defend Islam. What I defended is the peaceful people who are muslims and the point that we should make such a distinction to be fair to those people.

Not a hard concept to understand really.

As far as Tools post and link: I did not ask Tool to respond as he did not make the original statement that Muslims have killed more people then any other religion.

I asked Special Ed what he used to draw his conclusion in regard to his statement.

IMO a radically slanted website is not a good source to validate ones point because of its obvious bias. Thats all.

Here again another concept that should not be too dificult to understand unless you somehow want to change my comments to appear as though I have stated something I did not.

[ironpit]

That is quite a price to pay for being skeptical - a trait that God gave some of us. But whatever makes you feel one up on your neighbor.

Skeptical isn't the problem. Rebellion is. People who refuse to believe and obey the truth.
Damnation is for those who are too rebellious to accept the truth. The Scripture encourages us to "reason together" with God.In Psalm and Proverbs, as well as the book of Job, God challenges those with any sense of reasoning, to consider Him.

Have you ever read these books and considered them?

[Brian GC]

As for Jesus dying for the sins of all mankind, He did just that. For those who do not wish to accept the gift of salvation from Jesus’ sacrifice of dying for our sins, that is their choice.

By saying “He died for our sins” doesn’t explain it or make it so, regardless of how many people repeat it.

If God made man with his “sinful” nature, spiritual ignorance and tendency to believe and follow corrupt men then why is He blaming us for the way He made us? If he wanted us to be without “sin” He could have made us that way with a snap of His finger.

A soldier’s sacrifice of dying for our freedom, as seldom as that is, is far more comprehendible than Jesus dying for our sins. Maybe you can be the one that explains why the physical torment of crucifixion that Jesus chose eradicates the responsibility of the sinful nature of man? What does one have to do with the other?

[royc]

Really Roy Christians didn't start the war or wanted to join the war but their non Christian governments did. Christianity had little or no influence in the governments of Germany and the Soviet Union. You did say:


This definitly implies that "Christians" are responsible for the killings when in fact it was their non Christian governments which were responsible. I hope you understand the difference here? Thank you, thank you very much

Goverments dont kill anyone.....

People do.


"I just followed orders", doesnt work either.

But it seems even in our goverment they seem to think that following orders is a good exuse for torturing people.

Roy

[Brian GC]

Skeptical isn't the problem. Rebellion is.

Being skeptical, a God made trait, is the problem.

Rebellion is a term used when both choices are very clear. Religions and spirituality are anything but that.

[ironpit]

Following the thread of purity through out the Scripture, Christ could not have been married.

From the treatment of men as being unclean for , I believe it was 24 hrs after sex with their wives, to the complete devotion of oneself to God as illustrated by the 144,000 male jewish virgins in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Christ was not just a symbol of purity, He himself had to be pure in every way.
It is completely illogical for Christ to have been married. His desires were only to please his Father and complete His work.

He was and is a Lamb without blemish, pure and spotless, offered up to God as a first fruit.

Unlike muhawmed, who was a drunken whore monger, that promised an orgy for every whore mongering muzlim man in eternity. (No such promises for the women who are muzlim owned and abused.)

It's interesting that in just about everything that Christ represents, islam is the polar opposite. Jesus said that in Heaven, there is no marrying or given in marriage.


As for killing. What's the deal there? The Scripture says that our God is a man of war. Many times God sent angels to kill His enemies. God has that right. In fact there were a couple of guys of whom it was said "And God hated him and God killed him".

There is a lot to be said for the God of justice, who gives and takes away. There is security in knowing that He is able to deliver His people completely.

God has rights too. And He has the muscle.

Who is like our God!

[ironpit]

Being skeptical, a God made trait, is the problem.

Rebellion is a term used when both choices are very clear. Religions and spirituality are anything but that.


If being skeptical is a God made trait, and assists us to search for truth, how can it be the problem?

The problem is not believing the evidence.

And perhaps not believing the evidence, is linked to the inability of those who say they have the truth, not being able to, or perhaps not caring to, present the truth with the humility in which it was designed to be presented.

In other words, maybe the Christians really just don't care as much about people as they say they do.

Unfortunately, I believe that includes me.

After reviewing some of your posts, I think you tend to be a fairly honest guy. You make some good points .

The answers are there, they just take some time and effort. If you don't mind, I'll pm you later.

[dna]

ironpit.............if you were born in Pakistan, you would be a Muslim. It's all a matter of perspective.

[ironpit]

ironpit.............if you were born in Pakistan, you would be a Muslim. It's all a matter of perspective.

And if you were born in a sewer you would be what.... a turd.

There is no way you can know who would be what. there are a lot of christians in pakistan, iran, china and other nations like them.
It is a matter of perspective, but not human

[Six]

By saying “He died for our sins” doesn’t explain it or make it so, regardless of how many people repeat it.



If God made man with his “sinful” nature, spiritual ignorance and tendency to believe and follow corrupt men then why is He blaming us for the way He made us? If he wanted us to be without “sin” He could have made us that way with a snap of His finger.

A soldier’s sacrifice of dying for our freedom, as seldom as that is, is far more comprehendible than Jesus dying for our sins. Maybe you can be the one that explains why the physical torment of crucifixion that Jesus chose eradicates the responsibility of the sinful nature of man? What does one have to do with the other?

God did not make man sinful by nature. Really its in the bible and at the front no less.

Adam was made in Gods image, perfect and without sin. Then God basically "did s bit of surgery" and made man a mate.

Her name was Eve. Eve did something that and told Adam to do something that they were warned against.

Ill stop there because the rest is obvious.

[printer2]

Skeptical isn't the problem. Rebellion is. People who refuse to believe and obey the truth.
Damnation is for those who are too rebellious to accept the truth. The Scripture encourages us to "reason together" with God.In Psalm and Proverbs, as well as the book of Job, God challenges those with any sense of reasoning, to consider Him.

Have you ever read these books and considered them?

So why would God not give others the option of following Jesus to salvation, think of all the lost souls through time that were born, lived, and died without hearing of Christianity? Are they doomed to hell because God did not have the foresight to spread the word to them in a timely manor? What is his excuse, I forgot? Sorry but it would be a cruel god that would damn those that he made in his image and failed to instruct them of the options.

[Six]

The subject of whether or not the man Jesus (assumption that we are
referring to Jesus Christ because Jesus was a common name at the time that Jesus Christ walked the Earth as a mortal) ever had sex or was married has come up often. Usually, the conversation is based on Coptic writings, which are always somewha suspect because of the Egyptian Christian melding of female deities into the Christian faith. Also, even this latest alleged reference is still a century and a half after the fact of the man Jesus having lived as a mortal.

That said, from an etimologically
historical viewpoint, taking into consideration the social aspects of the Middle East and in particular, Jews of the time that the man Jesus lived, it would actually be odd if Jesus had not married.

Unlike today, with it being so inexpensive for writing materials, writing 2000 years ago was limited to what mattered most. Only if there were something out of the ordinary about a person being written about would a subject even be noted. Paul of Tarsus is an example of a man whose celebacy was pointed out because celebacy in a male Jew at Paul's age was something that would be noticed and commented on. With Jesus having been thought of as a rabbi, it would have been even more odd for Him not to have been married. An unmarried thirty-something rabbi would have raised a lot of eyebrows and would have been commented on.

Just as we have no written description of what Jesus looked like, we have nothing in writing as to Jesus's marital status. Paul on the other hand is described physically and his celebacy is written about. Why Paul and not Jesus? Because Paul's physical appearance was noteworthy and his celebacy needed explaination. In turn, the reason that Jesus is not physically described can be reasonably assumed because Jesus looked like every other typical Jewish man in His time. Likewise, with nothing being mentioned about Jesus being married or not, it is more likely that Jesus was either married or had been married. It is possible that Jesus had a wife who passed away before He started His ministry. Either way, it is actually more unlikely that Jesus was never married simply because there would have been some mention of such an unusual lifestyle by Jesus.

Since Jesus was fully a man, any offspring of Jesus's would simply be normal humans. It was that Jesus was also the incarnate of God the Father that made the man Jesus so spiritually unique.

As for Jesus dying for the sins of all mankind, He did just that. For those who do not wish to accept the gift of salvation from Jesus's sacrifice of dying for our sins, that is their choice. Just because we don't accept something someone does for us does not diminish the fact that they still committed the act for us. If I open the door for you and you refuse to walk through it, I have still opened the door.....for you.

Robo there were descriptions of Jesus in the bible.

It can be assumed that he wasn't nessecarily distinctive in his appearance as the bible talks about him easily blending into to crowds

[Six]

Cont....(stupid phone)

And it talks of Judas having to identify him among his disciples to the Praetorian Guard with a kiss.

His disciples were fishermen, laborers and he was of course a Carpenter. So yes it seems he would have appeared like any other 30 something Jew of his time.

It references his beard in Isaiah "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting".

He most likely had shorter hair than what we're used to. Corinthians: "Does not nature teach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame upon him ?"

There is a detailed description of Jesus from thr Roman Consul Lentulus to the Roman Emperor Tiberius. It was found in a monastery and historical research has confirmed the prsence of a " Consul Lentulus " in Judea at the time of Jesus's trial.

Although the validity of the origin of the document is still being debated.

[ironpit]

Isn't is amazing that people struggle with the concept of God, And a God that loves us.

I cannot hope to understand or comprehend someone who says that He merely "Spoke" and created existence. All solar systems, universes, galaxies and all of the principles that govern the behavior of all that is.

Nor can I imagine what it was like to walk with Christ, as the people did and hear Him claim to be God, then raise people from the dead and do other miracles that have never been told of anyone else. Ever!
.
Reading the Scripture I hear Him tell of God as His Father. Of Love. The mystery of the trinity.

When Pilate boasted of his power, Christ reminded him that all of his power was given to him by Heaven.
He also reminded them that He could call angels to His rescue, as if He really needed them!

God did not spare His Son, but made Him suffer for all the evil of humanity.

The scripture says that He has set before us Life and death. Then He encourages us to choose Life, that we may live!
God has put into each mans heart to know the truth. How God judges is not up to me, nor do I understand it.

I know a lot of people who refuse to love God as the Scripture reveals Him. They want to do all of the things that He says is against His nature.

It is His world. He made it. He makes the rules. His ways are good. It gives Him Great pleasure to give us the keys of His Kingdom. But He is not going to give them to people who do not want his nature or His ways.

Hell was created for satan and his angels. It was not intended for men and women. We are creatures of free will. We choose. What we cannot choose is to ignore the one to whom it belongs.

Think of it this way. Christ paid an eternal price that we might spend eternity with the Father and Him. People turn their backs on literal Heaven. Why wouldn't God be angry at that? Imagine giving your best for someone, only to have them throw it in your face, curse you and walk away.

As for those who never have heard, that is God's to deal with. We are told to preach the Gospel and also live it. Maybe God is depending on us to show We care. Maybe we have responsibilities ourselves. Maybe we who know and don't tell will be held accountable.

There are times we do not lean on our own understanding. We simply trust and obey.

[glennac]

Robo there were descriptions of Jesus in the bible.

It can be assumed that he wasn't nessecarily distinctive in his appearance as the bible talks about him easily blending into to crowds

I would vote for this to be a good depection of Jesus. Thank you very much

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/glennac8/Jesus_070_small.jpg

[corny]

There are no physical descriptions of anyone in the bible...... they are all symbolic descriptions of WHO the person was or of their spiritual being or nature.

Tiberius letter...... its a fake..... No, it hasnt been proven without a doubt its a fake but the writing style and the language are a lot different than what was used when Jesus died.

There are several other fake letters out there too.

144,000 virgins.......in revelations........revelations.... the mother of symbolism...... think...spiritually virgin..... they had not succumbed to the world around them and all its sin and evilness....

Do you folks even study the bible.... or do you just keep a copy on your dash like the rednecks around here do.....collecting a ton of dust...

YE SHALL PAY DEARYE FOR YE SLOTHFULLNESSYE........

[printer2]

As for those who never have heard, that is God's to deal with. We are told to preach the Gospel and also live it. Maybe God is depending on us to show We care. Maybe we have responsibilities ourselves.

So it might be better to not know and get in through the back door.

[ironpit]

So it might be better to not know and get in through the back door.
I guess if there was one that would be okay, except that Jesus said that He was the door and that only by Him men would enter in.

[printer2]

I guess if there was one that would be okay, except that Jesus said that He was the door and that only by Him men would enter in.

So that means that all those poor souls that lived in lands other than the ME and Europe from the time of Jesus till the good book made it to their shores are damned due to no fault of their own. Sorry, mine is a merciful God, you can keep yours.

[Brian GC]

... Jesus said that He was the door and that only by Him men would enter in.

I realize Christians make that claim but I don’t believe it. It is too self centered and egotistic for someone as selfless as Jesus. I understand it to be “only through my message of unconditional love and living by the golden rule will you get closer to heaven.”

More than likely we will have a few more incarnations before we see heaven, but just dying is heaven compared to here. We like instant gratification but we have been doing this for LONG time and there are no magical E-tickets to heaven, regardless of what Christianity or other religions promise thier followers.

[RoBoTeq]

By saying “He died for our sins” doesn’t explain it or make it so, regardless of how many people repeat it.

If God made man with his “sinful” nature, spiritual ignorance and tendency to believe and follow corrupt men then why is He blaming us for the way He made us? If he wanted us to be without “sin” He could have made us that way with a snap of His finger.

A soldier’s sacrifice of dying for our freedom, as seldom as that is, is far more comprehendible than Jesus dying for our sins. Maybe you can be the one that explains why the physical torment of crucifixion that Jesus chose eradicates the responsibility of the sinful nature of man? What does one have to do with the other?

You kind of miss the whole point that God gives us freedom of choice, even if Democrats do constantly do things to take choice away from us with laws, regulations and socialist programming.

[RoBoTeq]

Goverments dont kill anyone.....

People do.


"I just followed orders", doesnt work either.

But it seems even in our goverment they seem to think that following orders is a good exuse for torturing people.

Roy

Governments "ARE" people. Usually the worst of the lot, which is why they need to be monitored and restricted.

[RoBoTeq]

Robo there were descriptions of Jesus in the bible.

It can be assumed that he wasn't nessecarily distinctive in his appearance as the bible talks about him easily blending into to crowds

What physical descriptions of Jesus are in the bible?

[RoBoTeq]

I would vote for this to be a good depection of Jesus. Thank you very much

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/glennac8/Jesus_070_small.jpg

There's not a shot in hell that the man Jesus looked like this. More than likely, Jesus would have looked more like this portrait of Him that I have in my home;
.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/porfle/laughing-jesus.jpg

[Six]

There are no physical descriptions of anyone in t
he bible...... they are all symbolic
descriptions of WHO the person was or of their spiritual being or nature.

Tiberius letter...... its a fake..... No, it hasnt been proven without a doubt its a fake but the writing style and the language are a lot different than what was used when Jesus died.

There are several other fake letters out there too.

144,000 virgins.......in revelations........revelations.... the mother of symbolism...... think...spiritually virgin..... they had not succumbed to the world around them and all its sin and evilness....

Do you folks even study the bible.... or do you just keep a copy on your dash like the rednecks around here do.....collecting a ton of dust...

YE SHALL PAY DEARYE FOR YE SLOTHFULLNESSYE........

Corny I posted a couple of entries out of thr bible that clearly referenced a physical description of Jesus. One was direct and the other needed just a bit of effort mentally.

The legitimacy of that letter isn't your call. You realize that right ?

Let the Historians and archeologist make the call.

Your criticisms of other Christians over their apparent lack of faith or your perception of their lack of faith just gives ammunition to the atheist.

They see a judgmental poster who thinks Christianity is a populafity contest. A foot race to the end of the bible with medals for the best Christians to be handed out.

If you think that salvation has one upped you or your level of worship has endeared you to the almighty to the point of having bragging rights then you have completely missed the point of Grace.

[Six]

There's not a shot in hell that the man Jesus looked like this. More than likely, Jesus would have looked more like this portrait of Him that I have in my home;
.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/porfle/laughing-jesus.jpg

In Isaiah it mentions his beard. The bible also talks about him moving effortlessly and unseen the the croeds.

Also Judas's kiss to identify him to the Praetorian Guards.

Yes its between the lines but none the less is a reference that he looked like your average 30 year old Jew of that time


And he would have most likely have had short hair.

[mcjo tech]

There's not a shot in hell that the man Jesus looked like this. More than likely, Jesus would have looked more like this portrait of Him that I have in my home;
.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/porfle/laughing-jesus.jpg

Who would have thought Jesus reincarnated himself as Carlos Santana

He sure can play a mean guitar.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yoH4qJQniI&feature=related

[Brian GC]

You kind of miss the whole point that God gives us freedom of choice, even if Democrats do constantly do things to take choice away from us with laws, regulations and socialist programming.

And you missed my question.

It is obvious we have freedom of choice and that God gave it to us. That is my point. Why did God give us freedom to sin that He now condemns us for? And what is the connection between being tortured to death on a cross and how that unravels God’s decision to let us sin?

It is perfectly natural for us to sin. How can God design us to sin and condemn us for sinning at the same time? God is painted as a very confused and misdirected Force…which I do not believe It is.

[corny]

Corny I posted a couple of entries out of thr bible that clearly referenced a physical description of Jesus. One was direct and the other needed just a bit of effort mentally.

The legitimacy of that letter isn't your call. You realize that right ?

Let the Historians and archeologist make the call.

Your criticisms of other Christians over their apparent lack of faith or your perception of their lack of faith just gives ammunition to the atheist.

They see a judgmental poster who thinks Christianity is a populafity contest. A foot race to the end of the bible with medals for the best Christians to be handed out.

If you think that salvation has one upped you or your level of worship has endeared you to the almighty to the point of having bragging rights then you have completely missed the point of Grace.

If you understand how the bible is written then you should understand that everything in it has a deeper meaning. Yes, Jesus was a plain looking man.... but thats what those descriptions are saying about him....

As far as the letter from tiberius and the other letters that are out there....... historians pretty much agree that those letters are forgeries and they have based it on the way they were written and the language and grammar etc.... that they contain.

I actually dont think that you even need to pick up a bible to enter heaven..... but... if you are going to comment on it.... you should at least know what you are talking about.

[royc]

There are times we do not lean on our own understanding. We simply trust and obey.

Would that not hold true for those born into Islam, they simply trust and obey.

Roy

[royc]

I would vote for this to be a good depection of Jesus. Thank you very much

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/glennac8/Jesus_070_small.jpg

If Jesus was born where he was then he was a Semite (Arab), so he most likely looked like this...

312041


Roy

[ironpit]

For those who reject the teachings of Christ, understand that your free will to reject it is a gift from God. God will not Force anyone to believe. It has been my experience that most people who reject Christ and misquote Him, do so with a really limited knowledge of Scripture and/or following someone else who has perverted the scripture.

I know of preachers who have left the sound teachings of the Scripture for emotional reasons like "Well, I've got gay friends and I can't believe a god of love would send them to hell". If God rejects something and people cling to the thing God rejects, they are rejected too.

Who can show where God has sinned? What commands are evil? What are the grounds for rejecting a Book that is proven historically and prophetically accurate?

Almost universally people hate thieves, but they make plenty of room for adulterers, fornicators, queers, drunks, etc. Why do people despise thieves? Because they steal, sometimes kill and often destroy what belongs to someone else. Things that someone else has worked hard for or built/created.


Heaven and earth are His. He created them . He has offered everything freely, but by faith. And He has stated that no one is going to steal, kill, or destroy His heaven, though many will try.

Exactly which book are you unbelievers following. I'd really like to know. I would like to see the authority behind it.
Authority, and the ABILITY to enforce it are both necessary.

I've heard many people say that they would deal with the after life when they get there.

Now that's a plan!

Everyone does what seems right in their own eyes. They have their own devised beliefs.

Islam is based on perverting judeo/christian teachings and insane murderous rantings of a madman that his caretakers early on considered to be demonically possessed.

This life is so short and eternity so long. Good luck with self reasoning.

[Six]

And you missed my question.


It is obvious we have freedom of choice and that God gave it to us. That is my point. Why did God give us freedom to sin that He now condemns us for? And what is the connection between being tortured to death on a cross and how that unravels God’s decision to let us sin?

It is perfectly natural for us to sin. How can God design us to sin and condemn us for sinning at the same time? God is painted as a very confused and misdirected Force…which I do not believe It is.

It's all pretty clear to me.

Approaching those questions from a point of not seeking God but instead trying to disavow God will always lead you to the same conclusion.

Its really a waste of time. Rhetorical and pointless.

Are you trying to convice people that there is no Christian God or sincerely interested ?

Because I've answered in previous post why we are innate sinners and why his blood cleanses us of our sins as long as we accept his Grace.

[corny]

Who can show where God has sinned? What commands are evil? What are the grounds for rejecting a Book that is proven historically and prophetically accurate?


Nothing about the bible has been historically or prophetically accurate......

You just got to have faith.... Same with all religions... without faith they are just collections of stories.

[ironpit]

And you missed my question.

It is obvious we have freedom of choice and that God gave it to us. That is my point. Why did God give us freedom to sin that He now condemns us for? And what is the connection between being tortured to death on a cross and how that unravels God’s decision to let us sin?

It is perfectly natural for us to sin. How can God design us to sin and condemn us for sinning at the same time? God is painted as a very confused and misdirected Force…which I do not believe It is.

God gave us freedom to CHOOSE sin or not to sin. He knew we would, so from before we were created, He made a way for us to escape condemnation. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The whole point of free will is for God and His people to have people who had a choice to love Him and them or not. No healthy person wants to be around people who don't want them.

It's about opportunity. We were not created to sin. We were created ABLE to sin. Big difference.

WE get to choose. WE, do.

The Cross is God's anger and judgement on sin. Rather than on people who sin. It is not enough that the guilty pay, someone innocent had to. The Love of God was in the Cross.

There is principle involved that goes beyond our comprehension.

You are right, God is not confused or misdirected. We are, without Christ.

I marvel at all of the secular stories, like peter pan, that emphasize believing in something in order for it to be real to us. Not real, but real to us. Those are just make believe stories. The truth is far greater than the stories.

It IS perfectly natural for us to sin. That's the problem. But it is natural because of our choice.

The emphasis of the Gospel is freedom. And that comes freely for us thru the love of God in the Cross.

[ironpit]

Nothing about the bible has been historically or prophetically accurate......

You just got to have faith.... Same with all religions... without faith they are just collections of stories.

Lying does not make truth. Very pathetic effort.

Two books. Evidence that demands a verdict and more evidence that demands a verdict, by josh mcdowel.A lazy mans way to facts of scripture.

You should enjoy them.

[royc]

For those who reject the teachings of Christ, understand that your free will to reject it is a gift from God. God will not Force anyone to believe. It has been my experience that most people who reject Christ and misquote Him, do so with a really limited knowledge of Scripture and/or following someone else who has perverted the scripture.

I know of preachers who have left the sound teachings of the Scripture for emotional reasons like "Well, I've got gay friends and I can't believe a god of love would send them to hell". If God rejects something and people cling to the thing God rejects, they are rejected too.

Who can show where God has sinned? What commands are evil? What are the grounds for rejecting a Book that is proven historically and prophetically accurate?

Almost universally people hate thieves, but they make plenty of room for adulterers, fornicators, queers, drunks, etc. Why do people despise thieves? Because they steal, sometimes kill and often destroy what belongs to someone else. Things that someone else has worked hard for or built/created.


Heaven and earth are His. He created them . He has offered everything freely, but by faith. And He has stated that no one is going to steal, kill, or destroy His heaven, though many will try.

Exactly which book are you unbelievers following. I'd really like to know. I would like to see the authority behind it.
Authority, and the ABILITY to enforce it are both necessary.

I've heard many people say that they would deal with the after life when they get there.

Now that's a plan!

Everyone does what seems right in their own eyes. They have their own devised beliefs.

Islam is based on perverting judeo/christian teachings and insane murderous rantings of a madman that his caretakers early on considered to be demonically possessed.

This life is so short and eternity so long. Good luck with self reasoning.

Why would a God thats all powerfull and all seeing, need you to tell us about him ???


Roy

[Brian GC]

Why would a God that’s all powerful and all seeing, need you to tell us about him ???


Roy

God mainly speaks to us through the Holy Spirit (our hearts). Those messages are of how to treat our fellow man, not how to interpret a Book that was written and plagiarized by man. What we happen to believe about who Jesus or Mohammad was in relation to God is not the point. It is how we live our lives while we are here. Therefore good people of all religions will be welcome to heaven.

The Bible, Koran and other holy Books are here to divide us. But God is the Father/Creator of all people regardless of faiths…and it is all perfect for the evolution of the soul. It is religions that offer shortcuts to heaven, but there are none IMO. Giving us free will was not a mistake and does not require forgiveness for our natural tendencies.

[scrogdog]

OMG!

You're a monkey and Jesus got laid!

Run for the hills!

[ironpit]

God mainly speaks to us through the Holy Spirit (our hearts). Those messages are of how to treat our fellow man, not how to interpret a Book that was written and plagiarized by man. What we happen to believe about who Jesus or Mohammad was in relation to God is not the point. It is how we live our lives while we are here. Therefore good people of all religions will be welcome to heaven.

The Bible, Koran and other holy Books are here to divide us. But God is the Father/Creator of all people regardless of faiths…and it is all perfect for the evolution of the soul. It is religions that offer shortcuts to heaven, but there are none IMO. Giving us free will was not a mistake and does not require forgiveness for our natural tendencies.

I'm assuming you have some factual basis for all that.

[ironpit]

Why would a God thats all powerfull and all seeing, need you to tell us about him ???


Roy He isn't the one with the need.

[Brian GC]

I'm assuming you have some factual basis for all that.



There is no factual basis for anything along spiritual matters. It is all a matter of opinion...and that is mine.

[ironpit]

There is no factual basis for anything along spiritual matters. It is all a matter of opinion...and that is mine.

California Dreamin' ? But good luck with it. It's YOUR choice.

[chaard]

He isn't the one with the need.
Good answer. A lot nicer than mine.

[chaard]

There is no factual basis for anything along spiritual matters. It is all a matter of opinion...and that is mine.

Spiritual matter, matter of opinion, matter of fact
Then why does anything matter?

[glennac]

If Jesus was born where he was then he was a Semite (Arab), so he most likely looked like this...

312041


Roy

Funny roy, you picked the dumbest & ugliest looking Arab you could find to depict Jesus. Typical of your "spins" lately. Surprised you didn't pick the devil to portray Jesus. Thank you very much

[ironpit]

There is no factual basis for anything along spiritual matters. It is all a matter of opinion...and that is mine.


This statement, as well as many others of yours do not qualify as intelligent, informed statements. There is an assumption that "spiritual matters" are non-existent, with no definition of what spiritual matters are.

We cannot accept the vague but general assumption of definition of "spiritual matters "as being valid as we have no evidence of the existence of what we consider "Spiritual matters".

If we do accept such loose definition of "spiritual matters" we have in effect, given meaning to something that we consider does not exist.

Which is lunacy.

The fact is, there are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown knowns. And even the things we think we know, may be falsely known.

Not knowing what we don't know, how do we know that WE aren't the ones constituting "Spiritual Matters", If such a thing as spiritual matters actually exist . Which according to some people don't, which in effect make US, null and void.

In other words. We don't exist.

Dude, taking your logic to the end, leads to nowhere, if it exists.

Take a bow Tommy Roe!

[ironpit]

Brian, the first statement I made in post 108 was really meant for another person on here that I find as "willfully misleading". In fact as I think of it, most the post is probably more applicable to him than anyone else, if in principle, if nothing else. I don't find fault of motive with you, as I do with him. You seem to be at least honest in intent. T man is something else.

[corny]

I dont know anyone who I believe is going to make it to heaven...... probably including me..... and thats based upon how I believe a christian should act.

And its the simple things that are going to be blocking our way..... lack of compassion......hate......greed.....

[ironpit]

I dont know anyone who I believe is going to make it to heaven...... probably including me..... and thats based upon how I believe a christian should act.

And its the simple things that are going to be blocking our way..... lack of compassion......hate......greed.....

While we were yet in our sins, (means that as the world was going about in it's sinful pleasure and activities), yet He died FOR US. He stayed the course, He looked around and saw all the activities, every minute of every day, and completed the work given to Him, namely He died for us. To give us justification and eternal life.

Before the foundations of the world, before He formed us in the womb. He knew us and determined to redeem us. As many as WILL can come and drink of the waters of LIFE.
'
If a man could enter Heaven by his work, he would spend eternity boasting of it. That would then not be anyone else's heaven.

Therefore, it is by faith and not by works, lest any man should boast.

If you gave gifts to your children out of no other reason but that You loved Them, would you want them to go around boasting about how they earned it?

Guarantee you if they did, their boasting would be centered on themselves and they would not appreciate the the gift, let alone the meaning of it, as a GIFT, unearned, from someone who loved them.

Heaven is free. But you have to believe it to receive it.

[hkempf]

Jesus was a man, god in the flesh, with all the same temptations you and me have, sent here and proving to us that a man can live without sin

[mcjo tech]

Jesus was a man, god in the flesh, with all the same temptations you and me have, sent here and proving to us that a man can live without sin

I would be the first to admit that I am not an overly religious person.

But this post is so simple and wise in some profound way that it is hard for even me to ignore.

[ironpit]

I would be the first to admit that I am not an overly religious person.

But this post is so simple and wise in some profound way that it is hard for even me to ignore.

wisdom usually is simple. It is the best way to hide it from the arrogant and boastful.
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, God has ordained wisdom.

Feel free to hammer away, after all it is ARP(Arguing Real Points)

[mcjo tech]

wisdom usually is simple. It is the best way to hide it from the arrogant and boastful.
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, God has ordained wisdom.

Feel free to hammer away, after all it is ARP(Arguing Real Points)

Believe it or not I have experienced the grace of God

Dispite my own stubborness and arrogance.

[RoBoTeq]

In Isaiah it mentions his beard. The bible also talks about him moving effortlessly and unseen the the croeds.

Also Judas's kiss to identify him to the Praetorian Guards.

Yes its between the lines but none the less is a reference that he looked like your average 30 year old Jew of that time


And he would have most likely have had short hair.

I hope you do realize that Isaiah was written before the man Jesus was born, so there is no way that anything in Isaiah could be refering to the physical attributes of Jesus.

Judas's kiss to identify says nothing about Jesus's physical appearance, but actually supports that Jesus looked no different than other Jews of His time. Otherwise, Judas could have just told the Romans what Jesus looked like.

[syndicated]

I'm curious, how do you Christians reconcile your beliefs and delusions with faiths not based upon the judeo-Christian template, like Hinduism, or buddhism? Are the billion and a half people that follow these faiths apostates? idolaters? blasphemers? Even more delusional than Christians?
You put all this blind faith in your bible, yet hours ago you say it's been plagiarized by man. Now I know for a fact that nothing even close to modern English existed 2000 years ago. I believe people in that area spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. Then the bible was translated to Greek, then Latin, then through other languages as Christianity spread, finally landing on olde English. Then there's the different versions. Things get lost in translation, lost in interpretation, lost in time.
Yet you preach this book as truth, and when challenged on it's accuracy and facts you can only offer more lines from the same book.
It's a self-reinforcing prophetic delusion on a scale never to be repeated!!

My third issue with the points made so far is this whole free will thing.
If the Jesus fish and god gave us freewill, then why all the temptation?
If god have us freewill then do Christians seek to limit it?? Abortion or homosexuality for example.
If you're a good Christian, then what others do isn't your problem, since you're going to heaven anyway!
Why do you seek to meddle in the affairs of others??

Live and let live!

The whole religion is one giant pile of doublespeak and contradictions.

[ironpit]

Aaron had a beard, saul was a head taller than most men, King David was described as being ruddy, which is considered to be red haired, esau was very hairy. Paul was short, there was a guy in the old testament that was so fat his stomach closed over the knife he was stabbed with. The old testament has a lot of description, including the number of fingers on hands.

Sorry. No voter I.D. cards.

[ironpit]

I'm curious, how do you Christians reconcile your beliefs and delusions with faiths not based upon the judeo-Christian template, like Hinduism, or buddhism? Are the billion and a half people that follow these faiths apostates? idolaters? blasphemers? Even more delusional than Christians?
You put all this blind faith in your bible, yet hours ago you say it's been plagiarized by man. Now I know for a fact that nothing even close to modern English existed 2000 years ago. I believe people in that area spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. Then the bible was translated to Greek, then Latin, then through other languages as Christianity spread, finally landing on olde English. Then there's the different versions. Things get lost in translation, lost in interpretation, lost in time.
Yet you preach this book as truth, and when challenged on it's accuracy and facts you can only offer more lines from the same book.
It's a self-reinforcing prophetic delusion on a scale never to be repeated!!

My third issue with the points made so far is this whole free will thing.
If the Jesus fish and god gave us freewill, then why all the temptation?
If god have us freewill then do Christians seek to limit it?? Abortion or homosexuality for example.
If you're a good Christian, then what others do isn't your problem, since you're going to heaven anyway!
Why do you seek to meddle in the affairs of others??

Live and let live!

The whole religion is one giant pile of doublespeak and contradictions.


That's it! Let it out!
Now, go home and think about what you have said and come back and tell us tomorrow. Next time, try to at least sound not so grumpy! :ghug:

[RoBoTeq]

And you missed my question.

It is obvious we have freedom of choice and that God gave it to us. That is my point. Why did God give us freedom to sin that He now condemns us for? And what is the connection between being tortured to death on a cross and how that unravels God’s decision to let us sin?

It is perfectly natural for us to sin. How can God design us to sin and condemn us for sinning at the same time? God is painted as a very confused and misdirected Force…which I do not believe It is.

God does not condemn us. We either abide by (obey) laws of nature (God's will) and accept that God is the Creator of the Universe, became incarnate in Jesus Christ and sacrificed His life for us......or not (either with God or not with God) our choice.

[ironpit]

Believe it or not I have experienced the grace of God

Dispite my own stubborness and arrogance.
I believe you. Bet I sin better than you! :angel:

[ironpit]

Good answer. A lot nicer than mine.

Your answers are fine, and you have a much nicer avatar. :cheers:

[chaard]

Your answers are fine, and you have a much nicer avatar. :cheers:

I showed you mine, now you show me yours. :grin2:

I'm just watching. I have plenty to say but you're doing a bang up job.

[royc]

Funny roy, you picked the dumbest & ugliest looking Arab you could find to depict Jesus. Typical of your "spins" lately. Surprised you didn't pick the devil to portray Jesus. Thank you very much

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcfa.htm

[royc]

I'm curious, how do you Christians reconcile your beliefs and delusions with faiths not based upon the judeo-Christian template, like Hinduism, or buddhism? Are the billion and a half people that follow these faiths apostates? idolaters? blasphemers? Even more delusional than Christians?
You put all this blind faith in your bible, yet hours ago you say it's been plagiarized by man. Now I know for a fact that nothing even close to modern English existed 2000 years ago. I believe people in that area spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. Then the bible was translated to Greek, then Latin, then through other languages as Christianity spread, finally landing on olde English. Then there's the different versions. Things get lost in translation, lost in interpretation, lost in time.
Yet you preach this book as truth, and when challenged on it's accuracy and facts you can only offer more lines from the same book.
It's a self-reinforcing prophetic delusion on a scale never to be repeated!!

My third issue with the points made so far is this whole free will thing.
If the Jesus fish and god gave us freewill, then why all the temptation?
If god have us freewill then do Christians seek to limit it?? Abortion or homosexuality for example.
If you're a good Christian, then what others do isn't your problem, since you're going to heaven anyway!
Why do you seek to meddle in the affairs of others??

Live and let live!

The whole religion is one giant pile of doublespeak and contradictions.

Have you ever watched "Dr. Who" ??? or "Star Trek".

Roy

[syndicated]

Have you ever watched "Dr. Who" ??? or "Star Trek".

Roy

Dr. Who? No.
Star trek? Yes.

Why?

[ironpit]

I showed you mine, now you show me yours. :grin2:

I'm just watching. I have plenty to say but you're doing a bang up job.

I'd load an avatar showing my 62' ford 100 w/utility bed that a customer gave me, except I don't know how to get it off the camera! Something to do with lack of effort I'm sure>

[royc]

Dr. Who? No.
Star trek? Yes.

Why?

In those you will find examples of people killing each other for whats seems to us the most unreasonable and trivial things, but they dont seem to think so.

Just shows that such ideology is like beauty, its in the eye of the beholder.


Roy

[LibertyTree]

Another liberal decides to attack and malign the name of Jesus with a scrap of papyrus that dates back to the 4rth century and hasn't even been accepted by historians as legitimate.

So what else is new.

I mean we all know the damage that the Christians are doing around the world destroying embassies, throwing rocks at riot police and killing ambassadors.
Its funny how nutso you guys get when someone mentions the possibility of something contrary to popular religious belief, like its some sort of sacrilege. Many books that should have been in the bible have been omitted and dissected at the behest of those who wish to manipulate the masses such as Constantine. Who knows what knowledge we would otherwise have.

[royc]

Liberty your wasting your time with some here, they believe that some film or a cartoon is what inflames people. They dont even consider that we have bombed and UAV'd the crap out of them, killing many inocent with some of the so called terrorists, not to mention having foreign troops on their soil.

Has anyone considerd what we would be like today, if anyone would do that to us. And please dont bring up 9/11, those were Saudies, I dint see us go after our oil benefactors.....gee I wonder why.


Roy

[Six]

Its funny how nutso you guys get when someone mentions the possibility of
something contrary to popular religious belief, like its some sort of sacrilege. Many books that should have been in the bible have been omitted and dissected at the behest of those who wish to manipulate the masses such as Constantine. Who knows what knowledge we would otherwise have.

Who's "nutso" liberty ? Did my initial post give you the impression that I and thousands of other Christians were on the verge of mass upheaval and rioting ?

Maybe we're thinking about burning down some embassies and killing some ambassadors ?.

Or did you just post some rhetorical hyperbic nonsense and display your your missdirected hatred towards Christians publicly while you ignore the daily rioting of the "religion of peace "??

And also posted some thing about biblical ommision but failed to back up your assertions with anything but your opinion.

Please explain how pointing out the obvious hatred towards Christian beliefs by the proggressives in this Country is "nutso"

[Six]

Liberty your wasting your time with some here,
they believe that some film or a cartoon is what inflames people. They dont even consider that we have bombed and UAV'd the crap out of them, killing many inocent with some of the so called terrorists, not to mention having foreign troops on their soil.

Has anyone considerd what we would be like today, if anyone would do that to us. And please dont bring up 9/11, those were Saudies, I dint see us go after our oil benefactors.....gee I wonder why.


Roy

Does it matter where they came from Roycey??

Did Osama Bin Ladens and Al Queda's and The Muslim Brotherhoods followers in Pakistan, Iraq, Lybia, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Yemen, and Egypt and Countless other small useless hole in the wall Countries come from Saudi Arabia ?

All of Osamas cave buddies were Saudis too huh roy ?

The attack on the Marine Barracks in Lebanon that killed over 200 US soldiers, most of them kids Roy, right out of High School. The guy that drove that truck in he was from Saudi too right Roy ?

Did the Spain Train bombers come from Saudi Arabia ? The UK Bus Bombers ? The 1986 Berlin Disco Bombing ?

The original bombers of the World Trade Center in the nineties ? The 2001 Tel Aviv bombings ?

The Naroibi Bombings ? The numerous Israeli bus bombings ?

The countless suicide terrorist attacks on civillians ?

Did all of those terrorist come from Saudi Arabia ?

Because taking in your infinite wisdom becAuse your 63 I'm still trying to figure out what the hell your yammering about.

What does Saudi Arabia have yo do with Muslim Terrorist ?

If you dont want to be talked to like a idiot quit acting like one.

[ironpit]

Liberty your wasting your time with some here, they believe that some film or a cartoon is what inflames people. They dont even consider that we have bombed and UAV'd the crap out of them, killing many inocent with some of the so called terrorists, not to mention having foreign troops on their soil.

Has anyone considerd what we would be like today, if anyone would do that to us. And please dont bring up 9/11, those were Saudies, I dint see us go after our oil benefactors.....gee I wonder why.


Roy

Thank you professor liberty for the lack of substantiated info.

Roy.

Israel gets bombed every day. Israel is not like those poor unfortunate muzlims from all those poor oil countries that you constantly sympathize with. Israel constantly defends itself while all the those poor ,sparsely populated muzlim countries threaten to kill all Jews And Americans.

Why don't you move to one of those countries and help those poor, uneducated and mistreated individuals. Maybe you could give them all of your money.

THAT WOULD SURELY MAKE THEM INSTANTLY, loving, caring compassionate, kind, civil and mushy- wushy loveable peaceful people.

I have lived and dealt with multiple threats and acts of violence and threats of death by some very powerful people as well as some just not nice people. I have had powerful people threaten that something would happen to my children( because of my knowledge of certain activities) and I have had my family shot at a with 30-06

I have been hunted and stalked by a lunatic who has tried to kill me. And threatened the same to my family.

And I have been accused of things by people covering up violations of federal law, in an attempt to shut me up and cover the crimes.

At no time have I resorted to violence. Never!

But my do I love to fight! It is a real high! I just don't want to hurt anyone.

But if anyone threatens me, my family, or someone else, with out justification and subsequently puts me in a position of no route of escape with imminent danger of bodily harm ,

I become quite a different person, with no apologies. And NO regrets. SERVICE WITH A SMILE!

I don't own a gun. I like guns. I think people ought to be required by law to have a gun.

I have no desire for one. I just prefer to handle things a different way. I prefer to walk away, peacefully.


At no time have I resorted to the behavior that you and your apparent idol obama bin laden so quickly cherish and justify in your muzlim family and friends. Attacking the innocent and blaming someone else.

You come across as someone quick to apologize for Innocent people and nations for defending themselves against barbarians.

Just like obama bin laden.

I am not ashamed of the good things this country has done, and I am not apologizing to a bunch of violence driven barbarians who haven't come close to the good that the U.S. of A. has done. Our misdeeds, considered.

[royc]

Iron you dont have a clue who I'am and what I stand for, your assuming...

Spell ASSUME...


Roy

[ironpit]

I can read. Perhaps you have no idea what you are writing.

[Six]

I can read. Perhaps you have no idea what you are writing.

I suspected as much.

[corny]

Its funny how nutso you guys get when someone mentions the possibility of something contrary to popular religious belief, like its some sort of sacrilege. Many books that should have been in the bible have been omitted and dissected at the behest of those who wish to manipulate the masses such as Constantine. Who knows what knowledge we would otherwise have.

We have those books that didnt make it into the holy bible.... No big secrets in them.....

[ironpit]

We have those books that didnt make it into the holy bible.... No big secrets in them.....
DDDDDDUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[printer2]

So ignoring Islam, why would God allow religions in India and the East form without their own path to salvation? Simple question.

[ironpit]

So ignoring Islam, why would God allow religions in India and the East form without their own path to salvation? Simple question.

Honest question. When you find out, please tell me.

My guess is it has to do with the free will of people who lead in countries. There are countries, like haiti, who at one time in there history literally prayed to satan to deliver from a bad situation. Look at them today, steeped in voodoo and poverty.

The actions of nations, as well as individuals, have consequences.

God apparently plays no favorites. King David whom God said had a heart after HIM, committed adultery and killed the woman's husband, a very loyal servant. God told David, the sword shall not depart his house. All of his son's were killed. I don't understand it.

God does. I have to trust Him. He has proven His love for us in Christ.

Have you not ever reached a point sometimes with people in your life, children or employees, where you just want to stop and say " Just trust me and do what I say".

Sometimes, when you are in a "situation", try to imagine yourself as God, and see how you feel. (Role playing as God. )

The scripture does tell us that God works all things together for good for those that love HIM.

The Gospel has some very sobering answers and declarations. Many are very hard to deal with. I don't understand why on many of them.
Christ Himself prayed that God would spare Him the cross, but never the less not His will be done, but His Fathers. And then He was promptly arrested, tortured, stripped naked and crucifie as a criminal, publicly. Yet He was innocent.

And on the Cross, what did Christ say? It was a question.

My God, My God. Why have You forsaken Me? And then , before He died, He knew, and said "It is finished".

While, in His humanity He didn't have the answers, He knew and trusted the One in whom He believed.

If we go through life always questioning everything before obeying, most things would quite likely never be accomplished. It's one thing to question out of honesty, quite another to question out of rebellion.

Reading the scriptures, Christ did, in my opinion, indicate that most people will be lost.
Not because of Him But Because of them.

In the meantime, I'm trying to get people in my sphere of influence out of the house, cause it is on fire, and going down.

Sorry if my opinion disappoints you. I suggest you google David Jeremiah, Joel stoel, Chuck Swindol or any other good Bible apologist ( a Bible believer).

[chaard]

What I don't understand is why others don't understand, that with all the killings and evil acts in biblical times all the way up to today, that Christians choose to believe that there is a purpose for everything and hope for a fallen world.
From the beginning of humankind men have sought to destroy each other. And its not all based on religions. Not everyone believed there is a God and yet still kill, rape and steal from each other.
Christians recognize we are savages(sinful) by nature. At least I do. If I had no fear of repercussions I would probably not care about anyone else but myself and may want to do harm to you if you pissed me off. And so many believe we have become civilized. Pfft!. We are not civilized. Look around. People are still killing and raping and stealing and religion is not behind it.
I believe this world is only going to get worse. Far worse.
There is no hope that all nations will live in peace. It will never happen. Never has. Never will.
So what hope is there? The only hope we have is in Jesus. And that when we pass on we can live eternally in peace with Him.
Why is that so hard to understand? Why do my beliefs tick you off or worry you? It could be far worse. Instead of being a Christian I could be a mass serial killer. But apparently to some of you Christians are the bigger threat.
I think some of you are just scared. Scared to admit that you aren't in control. Cause your not. There is nothing in this world you can control. Not the weather, not your kids, not Arabs, not the Govt, not even your own emotions.
You can't even admit that you aren't in control, and that scares you. You're afraid. Afraid to lean on or even seek a higher power than your own. You're afraid to pray. I said it. Afraid.
There's a saying "Real men pray"
And "Real men love Jesus"
You know why its said "Real men"?
Cause it goes against the norm. Any man can earn a paycheck or raise a family, but it takes a Real Man to lead his family or live his own life with little regard to himself and puts God and others first.
That's enough preaching tonight.

[royc]

I'm unsubscribing...this is getting too nutty even for me.

Roy

[ironpit]

What I don't understand is why others don't understand, that with all the killings and evil acts in biblical times all the way up to today, that Christians choose to believe that there is a purpose for everything and hope for a fallen world.
From the beginning of humankind men have sought to destroy each other. And its not all based on religions. Not everyone believed there is a God and yet still kill, rape and steal from each other.
Christians recognize we are savages(sinful) by nature. At least I do. If I had no fear of repercussions I would probably not care about anyone else but myself and may want to do harm to you if you pissed me off. And so many believe we have become civilized. Pfft!. We are not civilized. Look around. People are still killing and raping and stealing and religion is not behind it.
I believe this world is only going to get worse. Far worse.
There is no hope that all nations will live in peace. It will never happen. Never has. Never will.
So what hope is there? The only hope we have is in Jesus. And that when we pass on we can live eternally in peace with Him.
Why is that so hard to understand? Why do my beliefs tick you off or worry you? It could be far worse. Instead of being a Christian I could be a mass serial killer. But apparently to some of you Christians are the bigger threat.
I think some of you are just scared. Scared to admit that you aren't in control. Cause your not. There is nothing in this world you can control. Not the weather, not your kids, not Arabs, not the Govt, not even your own emotions.
You can't even admit that you aren't in control, and that scares you. You're afraid. Afraid to lean on or even seek a higher power than your own. You're afraid to pray. I said it. Afraid.
There's a saying "Real men pray"
And "Real men love Jesus"
You know why its said "Real men"?
Cause it goes against the norm. Any man can earn a paycheck or raise a family, but it takes a Real Man to lead his family or live his own life with little regard to himself and puts God and others first.
That's enough preaching tonight.

Good post.

[ironpit]

I'm unsubscribing...this is getting too nutty even for me.

Roy Don't go away. You are interesting.

[LibertyTree]

We have those books that didnt make it into the holy bible.... No big secrets in them.....
No you don't

[LibertyTree]

Who's "nutso" liberty ? Did my initial post give you the impression that I and thousands of other Christians were on the verge of mass upheaval and rioting ?

Maybe we're thinking about burning down some embassies and killing some ambassadors ?.

Or did you just post some rhetorical hyperbic nonsense and display your your missdirected hatred towards Christians publicly while you ignore the daily rioting of the "religion of peace "??

And also posted some thing about biblical ommision but failed to back up your assertions with anything but your opinion.

Please explain how pointing out the obvious hatred towards Christian beliefs by the proggressives in this Country is "nutso"
Haha you're thinking too hard. I'm talking about how you get your panties in a twist and start getting weird when someone asks a question such as "was Jesus gettin' some" or even if they asked "is it possible Jesus was married". You guys then go off in some nutty direction, its pretty funny

[Six]

So ignoring Islam, why would God allow religions in India and the East form without their own path to salvation? Simple question.

Islam believes in Adam( the Adam), Moses, Noah, Jesus, Jonah and the first testament in general with one caveat.

The afore mentioned people along with a few more including Mohamed are prophets that preached the original word of Adam.

That all the prophets prior to their assertion that Mohamed was the last preached Gods word for their time.

The word "time" is key in understanding why Isllam and its practioners seem to exist in the 7th century.

Point is there are simarities from religion to religion.

You guys that keep asking the question "if God is so powerful then why..." need to understand the concept of of his choice to allow free will and from a Christians perspective the concept of sin and how we were initially created without it.

You guys there is a book that answers a lot of these questions if thats what you're after.

If your trying to point out contradictions to be contentious or trying to trip up a Christian then its just a waste of time.

[Six]

Haha you're thinking too hard. I'm talking about how you get your panties in a
twist and start getting weird when someone asks a question such as "was Jesus gettin' some" or even if they asked "is it possible Jesus was married". You guys then go off in some nutty direction, its pretty funny

Define nutty Liberty. You mean like rioting,burning embassies, killing innocent people ?

THAT kind of nutty ??

Is it funny to seek out people of faith and question their beliefs for your own amusement ?

That makes you a good person right ? A guy with integrity, class and mutual respect for your fellow man ?

Actually your response to Christians chosing to live their life and practice their faith is to be contentious and insulting to people that practice charity and forgivness points to some pretty profound personality disorders actually.

It's not enough for you to live and let live and then ignore the religion who on a daily basis riots and kill in the name of their god.

How about you struggle with your obvious issues with God privately.

[ironpit]

Haha you're thinking too hard. I'm talking about how you get your panties in a twist and start getting weird when someone asks a question such as "was Jesus gettin' some" or even if they asked "is it possible Jesus was married". You guys then go off in some nutty direction, its pretty funny


Don't presume that the answers to your remarks are intended for you. As has been said "God causes all things to work together for good, for those who love Him".

While WE might be responding to YOU, God might be actually preparing a word for some other person or persons, who will read those posts, without us having the slightest clue.

You might mean it for evil, but it is God and God alone who will determine the outcome.

Thank you , for helping to spread the gospel. But don't expect a happy reward.
You are obviously ill motivated.

[RoBoTeq]

So ignoring Islam, why would God allow religions in India and the East form without their own path to salvation? Simple question.

Different strokes....maybe? I for one do not believe that only Christians can be with God after our mortal deaths, as I have posted many times. As a Christian, I believe that all souls will go through Jesus Christ to get to God the Father, as is taught to us by Jesus Christ. That does not mean that everyone has to have lived as a Christian, just that we all go through the immortal and spiritual Jesus to get to the Father for judgement.

Think of it as Jesus being the doorman for us to get to see the godfather.

[RoBoTeq]

No you don't

Let me guess; you think that only those of you who think you are gnostic have gnostic writings? Why in the world would you make such a stupid accusation? I too have copies of all of the writings that those who oppose the Bible claim are reputable. Most of the movies about theological riches are based on these writings, but none have been shown to be very reliable.

[printer2]

Different strokes....maybe? I for one do not believe that only Christians can be with God after our mortal deaths, as I have posted many times. As a Christian, I believe that all souls will go through Jesus Christ to get to God the Father, as is taught to us by Jesus Christ. That does not mean that everyone has to have lived as a Christian, just that we all go through the immortal and spiritual Jesus to get to the Father for judgement.

Think of it as Jesus being the doorman for us to get to see the godfather.

While we do not agree on many things, it seems the important ones we might.

[LibertyTree]

Define nutty Liberty. You mean like rioting,burning embassies, killing innocent people ?

THAT kind of nutty ??

Is it funny to seek out people of faith and question their beliefs for your own amusement ?

That makes you a good person right ? A guy with integrity, class and mutual respect for your fellow man ?

Actually your response to Christians chosing to live their life and practice their faith is to be contentious and insulting to people that practice charity and forgivness points to some pretty profound personality disorders actually.

It's not enough for you to live and let live and then ignore the religion who on a daily basis riots and kill in the name of their god.

How about you struggle with your obvious issues with God privately.
LOL see you can't help it.

[glennac]

So ignoring Islam, why would God allow religions in India and the East form without their own path to salvation? Simple question.

Well printer one can speculate that there are those who have no souls and thus won't be going to heaven and I believe that certain cultures and groups other than just dedicated Muslims may have no souls. Thus they won't be going to heaven. Interesting thought but not entirely out of my realm of possibilities IMO. :whistle: Thank you, thank you very much

[printer2]

Well printer one can speculate that there are those who have no souls and thus won't be going to heaven and I believe that certain cultures and groups other than just dedicated Muslims may have no souls. Thus they won't be going to heaven. Interesting thought but not entirely out of my realm of possibilities IMO. :whistle: Thank you, thank you very much

If you and I have a soul then everyone else has. Don't think there is a yes and no answer to this one.

[RoBoTeq]

While we do not agree on many things, it seems the important ones we might.
In the end of the long run, isn't this really all that truly matters? All the rest of our opinions and ideals are pretty much window dressing and bravado.

[corny]

No you don't

Oh, Im sorry.... I thought you were talking about the apocrypha but evidently you are talking about some other sources.....some non existant space aliens or bigfoot related writings that nobody ever wrote.

Like the books I write and sometimes quote from.....

[RoBoTeq]

Oh, Im sorry.... I thought you were talking about the apocrypha but evidently you are talking about some other sources.....some non existant space aliens or bigfoot related writings that nobody ever wrote.

Like the books I write and sometimes quote from.....
This reference is most times for Coptic writings from between the 2nd and 5th centuries. Most of these Coptic writings are designed to appease certain pagan groups to feel more comfortable with Christianity. There are so called gospels allegedly from Mary Magdelene and others that include more feminine values which are better known to pagans.

[Six]

LOL see you can't help it.

EDITED

I cant help but counter lies with facts.

I cant help but counter moral depravity with good conscience.

I cant help but counter hyperbole with moderation.

I cant help but counter missinformation with information.

I cant help but counter nonsense with objective data.

And I cant help but expose the people in our society who have nothing better to do than try and cover up their own inadequacies and their self hatred with petty attacks on people who have faith.

[chaard]

EDITED

I cant help but counter lies with facts.

I cant help but counter mor
al depravity with good conscience.

I cant help but counter hyperbole with moderation.

I cant help but counter missinformation with information.

I cant help but counter nonsense with objective data.

And I cant help but expose the people in our society who have nothing better to do than try and cover up their own inadequacies and their self hatred with petty attacks on people who have faith.

Nice.

[printer2]

EDITED

And I cant help but expose the people in our society who have nothing better to do than try and cover up their own inadequacies and their self hatred with petty attacks on people who have faith.

As long as it is your version faith.

[Tool-Slinger]

As long as it is your version faith.

And Jesus wept.

You got people shooting themselves to death in the ghettos, you have radical muslims trying to start WW3, and every idiot in between stirring up trouble. Christians hold the upper hand today of trying to promote world peace. Period.

Your other version of faith may go pound sand.

[printer2]

And Jesus wept.

You got people shooting themselves to death in the ghettos, you have radical muslims trying to start WW3, and every idiot in between stirring up trouble. Christians hold the upper hand today of trying to promote world peace. Period.

Your other version of faith may go pound sand.

I have no problem with Hinduism or Buddhism.

[corny]

Some speculate that Jesus travelled to India during his missing years....

Think about.... the old testament ways...which were pretty damn brutal and all the sudden Jesus shows up fresh out of India....or somewhere in Asia.... and now the message is just "love everyone".....

Something to think about.

[Tool-Slinger]

I have no problem with Hinduism or Buddhism.

I don't think I do either. Not like Islam anyway.